UK microlight on FAA PPC?

[al_uk]

Hi all, I've lurked and searched for a long time but did not find an answer to this:-

I've just returned to the UK with an FAA cert after having lived out in the US for a couple of years.

With the 152/172 rates being what they are here, I am looking at 3-axis microlights instead. Can I fly these in the UK on my FAA cert? If so, can I log the time as PIC?


Cheers for any pointers :-)

Al

[Genghis the Engineer]

Somewhere in your post is a typo, the question is where?

If you've got an FAA PPL then, subject to having differences training for microlights signed off in your logbook by a microlight FI then yes, you can fly UK microlights on an FAA PPL(SEL). And yes, you can log PiC, but you will still need to have a current FAA medical and BFR.

If it's a USUA-PPC certificate, then no, you'll need to do an NPPL(microlights).

G

[al_uk]

Hi Genghis, thanks for the reply.

Yes it is a shiny new FAA PPL(SEL). I finished it only last week. I described it as certificate as that is what they seem to be called in FAA land.

I have a 3rd class FAA medical. I'm near Birmingham so next stop will be the local Microlight club for more info.

Thanks again.

Al

[al_uk]

Hi Genghis, would you be able to point me in the direction of a reference for this? The person I am talking to at the BMAA says that the "CAA will not allow Microlights to be flown in the UK on any foreign license." Therefore I would need to do the NPPL.
Cheers,
Al

[slim_slag]

I asked the same question of the CAA. It was a long and tedious affair, but the final answer was that it wasn't possible. I think.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well, CAA do keep moving the goalposts, so it could be that my information is out of date - but that certainly was the position at one point.

The person to ask is Roy Hart at BMAA, 01869-338888

G

[slim_slag]

I asked in 2000 if that helps. Now I think about it that is a few years ago, how time flies.

[Lower the Nose!]

Al,

Commiserations on having left flying paradise. I am in the same position (except still hanging on in the US), and had the exact same thoughts. Roy Hart at the bmaa replied to my email a while back with a clear if concise "no, it is not legal". When I asked after the regs governing this restriction, he replied with details of what I would need to do. This turned out to be the entire NPPL course, including training to "bring me up to GST standard" (thanks, Roy) and the skills tests (checkrides). And of course shelling out to the bmaa for a licence, no doubt with periodic testing and renewal fees, medicals and the rest.

Further research on the bmaa website yielded this:

The holder of any licence issued by an ICAO Contracting State who wishes to obtain a NPPL (SEP) should contact the NPPL (SEP) assistance advisers for advice on the specific requirements for licence conversion.
These requirements will be determined by the holder’s current experience and will be assessed individually. The applicant must also have passed the JAR-FCL PPL (A) Air Law and Operational Procedures and Human
Performance and Limitation examinations prior to taking the NPPL (SEP) NST and GST. However, holders of such licences which are current and valid in all respects who have flown a minimum of 100 hours as pilot of
aeroplanes shall be credited the NPPL NST if they have also flown a minimum of 5 hours P1C cross-country flight time in UK airspace in the 12 months prior to the date of licence application.

So it seems that you might get away with much of the NPPL training on the basis of your FAA licence, but you should speak to the bmaa as the website suggests.

However, the above excerpt is very similar to the procedure for converting to the JAR-PPL on the basis of your FAA licence. You can then fly microlights once you get a sign-off, plus the heavier stuff you are used to as and when the finances allow. This might be a better bet.

As to why the bmaa won't permit something which even the CAA has no problem with, answers on a postcard.

[BEagle]

If you wish to obtain a NPPL with SSEA Class Rating based on a current and valid ICAO licence, you must then complete differences training on microlight aircraft before adding microlight privileges to your NPPL. That is as the result of a CAA error; this is expected to be corrected soon, so that in the near future you will need to have a Microlight Class Rating to fly microlight aircraft on any NPPL. However, the benefit of this is that you will be able to maintain both SSEA and Microlight Class Ratings by a yet-to-be announced combination of hours flown on either class of aircraft.

[al_uk]

Thanks for all the replies.

Yes, it was Roy Hart I emailed, and I also received the "Do the full NPPL" answer.

I have just over 100 hrs total in my logbook (or will have after this weekend, as I am back in San Diego for a few days)

So it seems I have 2 options,

1) Do the NPPL, as Roy suggested
2) Convert my FAA license into a JAR PPL by completing the exams, flight test, medical etc. Then I would have also have to keep it current on something other than a microlight for the hours to count.

Another question - apologies if I have the terminology incorrect; I understand that some microlights can be registered as "Group A" rather than "Microlight" Does this help in any way? Is a Group A aircraft flyable in the UK on the FAA license?

Has anyone created a guide/book for the differences between FAA/JAA eg. differences between the nav charts, radio calls, traffic patterns etc?

Al

[slim_slag]

I understand that some microlights can be registered as "Group A" rather than "Microlight" Does this help in any way? Is a Group A aircraft flyable in the UK on the FAA license?
I was interested in this because there were some Jabirus at Redhill available for not a lot of cash. They were registered as microlights and so could not be flown on an FAA certificate. Had the same machine been registered as a group A you could go off and fly it legally. The Jabiru microlight had performance better than a lot of machines that had to be registered as group A aircraft. Now I know rules don't often make sense, but that is daft. And yes, to get a UK microlight licence I was told none of my FAA hours count, whatever that means. I gave up on the idea and spent the money on non aviation related sfuff, another win for the CAA and UK aviation :confused: Has anyone created a guide/book for the differences between FAA/JAA eg. differences between the nav charts, radio calls, traffic patterns etc? This might be of help http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/usuk/. Nothing beats flying with an instructor or just another UK pilot who has been around the block might be just as good, if not better sometimes.

[BEagle]

You may use the privileges of an ICAO licence (such as a FAA PPL) to fly SEP Class aircraft in the UK under day VFR conditions. All UK night flying is IFR except for SVFR in Class 'D' airspace; your night flying privileges elsewhere are unclear and open to interpretation due to the FAA requirement that to fly under IFR you need an IR.... The UK does not have such a rule, provided that you do not fly in IMC.

Once you have converetd your licence to a JAR-FCL PPL(A), you will indeed need to complete differences training to add microlight privileges to your SEP Class Rating privileges. As for cost, excluding hire costs a PPL Skill Test will cost you about £160 for the examiner's fee, the licence issue fee is £159 and the licence lasts for 5 years, after which a £63 re-issue fee is required. To maintain validity, you must either achieve the required experience in the second of the 12 month periods for which your Rating is valid, or pass a Licence Proficiency Check in the final 3 months of the validity period. Microlight hours do not count towards revalidation.

'Group A' is an obsolete term and referred to single engine aeroplanes of less than 5700kg MTOW which were not microlights. The correct term is now 'Single Engine Piston' Class - SEP Class for short.

To learn about UK differences, download CAP413 and LASORS2006 from the CAA website. Then you will no doubt be required to fly with an instructor before people will be prepared to hire you an aeroplane.

[2Donkeys]

You may use the privileges of an ICAO licence (such as a FAA PPL) to fly SEP Class aircraft in the UK

There is no such Geographical restriction. An ICAO licence is a licence rendered valid, meaning that it may be used without restriction as to Geography.

[Whopity]

" Can I fly these in the UK on my FAA cert? If so, can I log the time as PIC?"

Yes

In accordance with ANO Article 26 (4)(a) You do not need any other licence despite what you may have been told.

The FAA Cert must be valid, the FAA Medical must be valid and you must have had a Bienial Flight Review in the past two years.

[BEagle]

2Donkeys, both question and answer concerned flying in the UK.

[2Donkeys]

... indeed so, but since the "in the UK" part is frequently trotted out as a restriction, it doesn't hurt to clarify that no such restriction exists.

2D

[dublinpilot]

Has anyone created a guide/book for the differences between FAA/JAA eg. differences between the nav charts, radio calls, traffic patterns etc?

While not quite a difference guide, the CAA's VFR Guide (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/DAP_ACD_VFR_Guide.pdf) is an excellent publication and will tell you all you need to know about flying VFR in the UK. I'm sure you can figure out which bits are different to the US after reading it ;)

dp

[FormationFlyer]

Having recently discussed this issue with someone in a similar situation, both in discussions with the CAA and the BMAA I can clarify this further - you can fly any aircraft in the UK that the FAA licence allowed you to fly - but be warned - a JAR SEP does not cover the same aircraft as the FAA PPC, because of the different ways a/c in the US are classified vs the UK.

For instance as I understand it an FAA PPC does not let you fly UAs (correct me if I am wrong!)....in the situation I was privvy to, the aircraft is classied as a Microlight in the UK, but an SEL in the US - so in this case the pilot *could* fly the microlight on his FAA PPC perfectly legally...in fact he had an FAA CPL but situation is the same....

Hope this helps,
FF

[Lower the Nose!]

This is not what the BMAA seem to say. I was told unequivocally that it is not legal to fly microlights in the UK on an FAA certificate. As far as the FAA are concerned I would be legal, but in the eyes of the BMAA apparently not. It is unclear how this is reconciled with the ANO section on recognition of other ICAO licences.

If by UA you mean an ultralight, believe it or not you don't need any kind of licence to fly the flexwing type in the US (not that I ever recall seeing one). The three axis types can be flown on the relatively new FAA Sport Pilots Certificate, daytime VFR only within a certain radius of the home field, and with some other restrictions. However the Private Pilot Certificate trumps this (ie you can fly ultralights without the need for special training or an add on rating).

[FormationFlyer]

Ill find out who at the CAA my friend spoke to regarding this..but it does depend on aircraft type.

[Henry Hallam]

" Can I fly these in the UK on my FAA cert? If so, can I log the time as PIC?"

Yes

In accordance with ANO Article 26 (4)(a) You do not need any other licence despite what you may have been told.

The FAA Cert must be valid, the FAA Medical must be valid and you must have had a Bienial Flight Review in the past two years.

ANO Article 26 (4)(a):
"in the case of injury or illness the suspension shall cease..."

I can't seem to find a relevant paragraph nearby but it is all a bunch of legalese to me...

I am in this exact situation myself, I have an FAA ticket with 55 hours total time (of which 6 in the UK). My father has just bought a Chevvron which definitely does not fall under the FAA "ultralight" classification, though it is registered as a British microlight. I am very eager to get a verifiable answer on whether or not I can fly it! (Hopefully an affirmative answer, of course).

[Lower the Nose!]

The answer is no. Contact Roy Hart at the BMAA (details earlier in the thread) to get it from the horse's mouth. Then ask him how the BMAA justified this apparently pointless restriction. Please post his response, because I never received a satisfactory answer and would love to know.

[al_uk]

To provide an update/closure to my original question for future searchers:-
Unfortunately I did not receive a definitive answer. The CAA said "If you are legal to fly it in the US on your FAA ticket, then you can fly it in the UK." This may be a starting point for anyone else with more perseverance than I.
I ended up buying a share in a small PFA type (Kitfox) which is registered as a standard "Group A" aircraft. This gives me flying with the same outlay and running costs as a microlight, but without the hassle of having to get an NPPL. I fly it on the standard FAA cert & 3rd class medical.
Al

[IO540]

That's an interesting answer.

I wonder if you could perhaps ask them the same question, this time casually mentioning a U.S. Experimental Category aircraft :O An whole lot of people, myself included, would be delighted to sponsor the cost of typing up the letter.

But seriously, I am not suprised by their answer. The trick will be to check if the same aircraft would be legal to fly in the USA.

And obviously make a full disclosure to the insurance company. That's what really counts in these "everybody knows this is safe but is it legal" situations. The "most" the CAA can do is prosecute you.... other outcomes are much worse.

[Genghis the Engineer]

You'll never get indefinite permission to operate a US Experimental type in the UK, because it's sub-ICAO. The best you can do is a short term exemption under the terms of AN52.

G

[Lower the Nose!]

It seems you can fly microlights on an FAA certificate in the UK after all.

Having been told initially by the BMAA that it was not possible, I queried their response and was ultimately referred to the CAA. Cut a very long story short, I now have it in writing that provided the restrictions of the foreign ICAO licence are adhered to its priveleges can be exercised in the UK (which is only confirming what LASORS says after all). Therefore provided I am current and legal in the eyes of the FAA I can fly UK registered aircraft in the UK. No distinction between microlights and Group A applies.

A professional pilot would be expected to convert the certificate after one year, but this does not apply in the case of a private pilot.

Furthermore, although differences training for microlights would be mandatory in the UK, my letter from the CAA merely 'recommends' that I undertake such training (which of course I plan to do).

The most difficult part about all this was identifying someone who was prepared to look at the issue and give a considered and authoritative response. It is the CAA and not the BMAA which makes policy on pilot certification issues, even in the case of microlights.

Credit to the CAA for a pragmatic policy. This means that if you are looking for cheap VFR flying in the UK in the form of microlighting, and can visit the US every couple of years for a flight review and a medical (or even undertake them in the UK), there is no longer any need to join the JAA pilot certification regime with its inflated charges.

[IO540]

You can do an FAA BFR in the UK:

1) In a G-reg, with a JAA instructor who is also an FAA CFI

2) In any foreign reg, with a FAA CFI who doesn't charge for the flight

3) In any foreign reg, with a FAA CFI, outside the UK FIR

4) In any foreign reg, with DfT permission (which is subject to various conditions), with a JAA instructor who is also an FAA CFI

I think that's right.

Genghis - aren't Permit types sub-ICAO too?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis - aren't Permit types sub-ICAO too?

Yes, which means that they're subject to one nation's regulations only and can't readily be operated across borders.

G

[IO540]

What difference, if any, is there between

a) a French based F-reg Permit plane coming to the UK, and

b) an N-reg Exp Cat plane coming to the UK

Both are sub-ICAO.

I know this is going off at a tangent but isn't there a mechanism for getting US Exp Cap planes approved elsewhere in the EU (Spain is a word which keeps coming up) and then they can circulate freely?

[Genghis the Engineer]

What difference, if any, is there between
a) a French based F-reg Permit plane coming to the UK, and
b) an N-reg Exp Cat plane coming to the UK
Both are sub-ICAO.
I know this is going off at a tangent but isn't there a mechanism for getting US Exp Cap planes approved elsewhere in the EU (Spain is a word which keeps coming up) and then they can circulate freely?

No difference, no mechanism that I'm aware of.

All sub-ICAO aircraft are likely to be given short-term dispensations within either the word or spirit of AN52, but not indefinite dispensation unless you can demonstrate that it fully meets local engineering standards.

G