JSF to Lossie, MR4A to Kinloss

[ORAC]

BBC: RAF bases set for aircraft boost


The Ministry of Defence is set to announce plans to safeguard hundreds of jobs and the long-term future of three RAF bases in Scotland. Ministers are expected to say new aircraft are to be deployed at the RAF bases at Lossiemouth and Kinloss in the north east, and Leuchars in Fife.....

The future of RAF Lossiemouth is set to be guaranteed as a home for the new fighter Joint Combat aircraft, which will replace Harriers used by the RAF and Royal Navy..... It is believed the UK Government is planning to order 64 of the new aircraft.

Supporters say Lossiemouth is ideally situated, as an existing Tornado base, and is well placed for flight training in the Highlands.

RAF Kinloss already has Nimrod early-warning aircraft and has a commitment until 2013. Its long-term future will be guaranteed by the confirmation that a new version of the plane will be based there.

RAF Leuchars in Fife is expected to be the location for the new Typhoon combat aircraft....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remark about numbers of JCA is interesting. Much less than the original figure of 150, but realistic as a straight replacement for the present JFH fleet.

Not enough for 2 full CVF wings, plus an OCU plus attrition spares however.......

[lightningmate]

ORAC,

The number 64 is not the number of JCA aircraft to be purchased, it defines a specific overall capability requirement.

lm

[Yeller_Gait]

RAF Kinloss already has Nimrod early-warning aircraft and has a commitment until 2013. Its long-term future will be guaranteed by the confirmation that a new version of the plane will be based there.


Good to see that the BBC still do not know what the role of a Nimrods is!

The MOD have already announced that MRA4 will come into service and be based at Kinloss until at least 2013. Given that the in-service date is now around 2012, that really is one hell of a commitment to Kinloss!!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Perhaps they mean early warning of submarines approaching?

Surly the BBC would never make a mistake of its reporting of the military, after all the special way that it is funded makes it impartial and high quality... :rolleyes:

[Washington_Irving]

I was never able to comprehend the long-standing policy for RAF Stations to be located as far from the civilized world as possible.

The STOVL chaps were delighted, no doubt, to hear that they will be leaving the armpit of England (and I include the entire East Anglian region- bloody cabbage-farming inbreds) only to find that they will be packed off to the two most isolated flying stations on the UK mainland, which will continue to be occupied ad nauseum. If that's not bad enough, they'll be stuck up there surrounded by drunken Porridge Wogs. The singlies will be crying for the fleshpots of Peterborough within a month, mark my words. Meanwhile, the married chaps can expect all manner of grief from Sunray Domestic about how far away from the in-law's/ friends/ decent shopping etc. they are.

In Wales- the Head Shed decides to all but shut down St Athan, just 15 mins by car from the M4 and Cardiff, but for God's sake, they have to hang on to Valley! It seems to me that the only people who get to live anywhere decent these days are the truckies and blunties.

When, exactly, did the primary purpose of HM Forces become being a subsidy and de facto jobs programme for rural backwaters whose only notable assets are lots of big rocks and thousands of sheep?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Its because your big wooshy speed machines are just too noisy for all the people who brought those 'surplus' quarters outside the back gates.

Although that doesn't account for the continued presence of the Vickers fun bus at BZN.

And who the hell would want to buy a surplus quarter in Scotland or 'the damp isle' if those bases closed down? "For sale, ex-service accommodation, often damp, miles from anywhere decent".

;)

[Washington_Irving]

On the other hand at least the local area of Lossie doesn't reek of pig sh1t like Marham.;)

[PPRuNe Radar]

When, exactly, did the primary purpose of HM Forces become being a subsidy and de facto jobs programme for rural backwaters whose only notable assets are lots of big rocks and thousands of sheep?

It's to give you some experience of the kinds of places you'll be sent to fight in :ok:

[Washington_Irving]

Maybe if we take the twin policies of HMG of downsizing and putting what's left in the middle of B.F. Nowhere to their logical conclusions, then perhaps the sum total of RAF peacetime operations will soon be staged out of Mt Pleasant.

OK, chaps- best/worst place you've been posted for a tour (dets and deployments excluded). Not talking about the flying or other shop-related issues here, but rather the general quality of life- Mess, Quarters, facilities, local area, etc. Go!

[CBA_caption]

A very good point Washington, When are they going to realise that selling off the family silver means everyone is left with the tupper-ware.

Most of the people in my shoes are, when offered their next tour of either RAF Armpit or RAF Ar*shole, really thrilled to have to move there do to the same job, on the same shoestring, with a less then happy other half. Not to mention the 14hr bus ride to go to any of the sandy places because Brize is so far away.

Also, I wonder whether the people of Lossiemouth realise just how noisey the JSF is?

[vecvechookattack]

Best det - Key west, FLA. Fab run ashore, fab accomm, fantastic flying.

Worst det - Panama city - enough said !!!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well 'Washington' I rather enjoyed RAF Locking.

Cracking social life, a great rugby club and the chance for a youngster like me (I was 18 at the time) to chat up impressionable trainee TCO's or if I fancied a challenge, a local with the normal standard compliment of fingers.

;)

dets and deployments excluded

Ahem.:p

[markerboy]

Why is it, in todays changing environment, essential to keep the Nimrod at ISK and fighters at Leuchars? Apparently the threat from round the corner has gone! So for once, apply common sense and base the new aircraft at locations that suit the tasking.

That way, when it comes to posting, you get sent somewhere half descent and Zero Alpha is constantly on transmit about how far away they are.

:=

[The Helpful Stacker]

I tell ya {tin foil hat on} it a conspiracy by the sweaty sock mafia, those in government who want jobs for their mates back in Scotland and by those skirt wearers in the RAF who join up to see the world but then realise that you can't get 'Take The High Road' on proper telly.

Mark my words, the truth will out.....

:ooh:

[jkirkup]

From: M O D Press Office Scotland

FUTURE SECURE FOR ALL THREE RAF BASES IN SCOTLAND

Defence in Scotland received a boost today when Armed Forces Minister, Adam Ingram, announced that both the Joint Combat Aircraft (JCA) and the new Nimrod MRA4 will be based at RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss.

RAF Lossiemouth will be home for the new JCA, which will progressively replace the Harrier from around the middle of the next decade. The RAF's new fleet of Nimrod MRA4 will be based at RAF Kinloss when they enter service towards the end of this decade. It was also announced earlier this year that RAF Leuchars will be home to three squadrons of the new Typhoon, replacing the Tornado F3 around the end of this decade.

Lossiemouth was one of eight stations considered as a possible home for JCA, and was identified as the best option after a thorough year-long review. It provides excellent access to training areas, modern facilities and is most cost effective.

RAF Kinloss has a proven track record as a base for the current Nimrod MR2 fleet. A comprehensive study has shown that whilst RAF Waddington and RAF Kinloss would both be suitable operational bases, the substantial financial investment required at Waddington was not justifiable.

Adam Ingram said: "This is great news for RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss. It means both bases have an exciting and challenging future ahead. But this is also the right strategic decision for UK Defence. The Joint Combat Aircraft and new Nimrod are excellent examples of the more capable, flexible, expeditionary equipment that our Armed Forces need to meet modern defence challenges.

"It is important to get such a critical decision right, and I know the review has caused some uncertainty in Moray over the past year. So I would like to pay tribute to our staff, their families, and members of the local community for their patience and valuable help in the consultation process, and thank them for their support to the air bases year on year. As I've said before, Scotland is of great importance to defence, but defence is important to Scotland too - the decision announced today reinforces the future of Defence in Scotland and its local communities."


NOTES TO EDITORS

1. The review into JCA basing was announced on 11 October 2004. In all, eight options were considered: RAF Kinloss, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Marham, RAF St Mawgan, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Wittering, RNAS Yeovilton, and RAF Leeming which was added to the list in March.

2. Outcome of the study is that RAF Lossiemouth will be the initial base for JCA.
Stations discounted:
RAF Leeming - Adverse noise profile
RAF St Mawgan - An expensive option
RNAS Yeovilton - Potential severe noise impact/short runway/too far from training areas.
RAF Kinloss - High birdstrike rate/short runway.
RAF Wittering Limited space available
RAF Marham/RAF Cottesmore - Not ruled out completely, should a second base be required these stations will be considered. It is too early to say whether the second base will be necessary.

3. The study into Nimrod MRA4 basing considered RAF Kinloss and RAF Waddington. Waddington was considered in order to evaluate the advantages of co-locating Intelligence Surveillance Targeting and Reconnaissance with Nimrod on one base. The study found that whilst RAF Waddington and RAF Kinloss would both be suitable operational bases, the substantial financial investment required at RAF Waddington was prohibitive.

4. Trades Unions and local authorities have been consulted/informed as appropriate

5. The decision to discount RAF St Mawgan as an option for JCA means there is no long term Strike Command use for the airfield. This decision will allow Cornwall County Council to continue to plan for the long term future of Newquay Cornwall Airport (NCA). Discussions between MoD and DfT continue to ensure a smooth hand over of NCA to civilian authorities.

6. For more information please contact Sara Reed in the MoD Scotland press office on 0131 310 2004 or Matthew Willey in the MoD Press Office on 0207 218 7925 or Michael Mulford on 01309 672161 ext 7597.

7. The MoD web-site can be found at http://www.mod.uk . You can find current information and pictures of the Nimrod MRA4 at: www.mod.uk/dpa/projects/nimrod.htm ; and the JCA at: www.mod.uk/dpa/projects/jca.htm and www.mod.uk/dpa/news/pn2002/sept02/jump jets.htm


ENDS 17 November 2005

[lasernigel]

Doesn't this report contradict this (http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/50483.html) which was posted on another thread this week that unfortunately I can't find at the moment??

[Tim Inder]

I thought the jockistanis wanted 'independance' from the mainland - so why are we intent on basing all of our military air north of the border?

Bring 'em home and rebuild the wall!!

[Jackonicko]

"2. Outcome of the study is that RAF Lossiemouth will be the initial base for JCA.
Stations discounted:
RAF Leeming - Adverse noise profile
RAF St Mawgan - An expensive option
RNAS Yeovilton - Potential severe noise impact/short runway/too far from training areas.
RAF Kinloss - High birdstrike rate/short runway.
RAF Wittering Limited space available
RAF Marham/RAF Cottesmore - Not ruled out completely, should a second base be required these stations will be considered. It is too early to say whether the second base will be necessary."

Or

Stations discounted:
RAF Leeming - Yorkshire's on the up - selling it means £££
RAF St Mawgan - We only put it on the list as a sop.
RNAS Yeovilton - Far too retention positive for matelots, and far too close to Portsmouth for when you need to deploy on one of these new carriers....!
RAF Kinloss - going to be full of Nimrods as part of the Jockistanisation of the RAF
RAF Wittering - will generate more cash when we sell it off for housing
RAF Marham/RAF Cottesmore - As for Wittering


I'm puzzled as to why Leeming and Yeovilton are suitable for noisy Tornado, SHar and Typhoon (they didn't drop Leeming cos of noise) but not JSF.

I'm puzzled as to why no consideration was given to establishing an ISTAR 'clutch' at Waddington/Scampton.

I'm puzzled as to why a JSF 'clutch' at Cottesmore/Wittering wouldn't make sense.

[BEagle]

Once upon a time there were fighters based at any number of nice places in the UK; West Malling, Tangmere, Odiham, Waterbeach, Wattisham - the list is endless.

Now it's just the outflung parts of empire largely inhabited by DFMB-eating peasants. 'Porridge wogs' - that's a new one on me!

Marham was once considered to be 'El Adem with grass' (as in the stuff sheep eat). Now people are keen to stay there, it seems, rather than sample the delights of Jockistan.

Nice postings: 35 Sqn, Scampton. 58 Sqn, Wittering (briefly!). 56 Sqn, Wattisham. ULAS at White Waltham, Abingdon and Benson with summer camps at Thorney Island, Marham, Newton and St. Mawgan. 101, 241 OCU and 55(R) at Brize Norton. Also Brawdy in the glorious summer of '76.

Sooo lucky was I to be based in the English speaking part of Britain for 35 years!

If reincarnation was possible, I'd like to fly night fighters from West Malling, please! Or back to Vulcans at Sunny Scampton.

[Regie Mental]

'RNAS Yeovilton - short runway'

Runway too short for STOVL? Exactly how long are these carriers going to be?!

[VitaminGee]

Runway too short for STOVL? Exactly how long are these carriers going to be?! Not long enough when the vertical lift fan fails:} [....oh for a hook and some :mad:wires......dumdedumdedum]

[DeaconBlue]

Jacko - you can't sell off Wittering - it's loaned to the Air Ministry by the Duke of Rutland or somesuch and the agreement says "IT WOULD HAVE TO BE RETURNED TO IT'S ORIGINAL CONDITION" (i.e. Arable Farmland) if the requirement for the loan finished. One suspects that would be *just* a little pricey

[An Teallach]

It probably matters not where the bases are, PMA will probably continue to post us 'Porage Wogs' to deepest Englandshire while the Sassunachs bump their gums at ISL and ISK.

Yours

Angus Porage-Wog
Jockistan
http://darachweb.com/food/images/porage.jpg Mmmmmm Tasty! :ok:

[RileyDove]

Adam Ingram and John Reid -do they happen to be Scottish by any chance?

[BEagle]

A P-W, I presume that you mean it's the porridge - or porage if you prefer - which is 'tasty'....?:p

[An Teallach]

Hey Beags, I'm not picky! :}

[Jobza Guddun]

Quote:-

"Runway too short for STOVL? Exactly how long are these carriers going to be?!"

Or does it suggest which F-35 variant, and thus which carrier configuration, the UK will be getting...............

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The paragraphs below are quoted from one of my posts on the Sea Jet thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98152). No, this is not a hijack - honest!

There are many reasons for low morale in a unit. I put it to you that within 801, the fact that the squadron is soon to be disbanded and the move to Cott/Witt probably has a lot to do with it.

Hmm. Interesting. When the SDR was announced in '98, and the Sea Harrier force came under RAF control, I feared that the Navy's needs (such as air defence and anti ship strike) would be forgotten.

When the decision to move the Sea Jet force to Cott/Witt was announced, I suspected that the WAFUs wouldn't like it and PVR etc. My suspicions were confirmed both in the media and by personal contacts. I took the extreme step of writing to my MP over it. Adam Ingram MP, however, was adament that there was no such issue. This letter arrived less than a week before the decision to retire the Sea Harrier was taken, yet it gave no clues.

Can't help thinking I was right on both counts!

Not so many years ago there was an article in Navy News tht confidently predicted that the Sea Harrier would remain at Yeovilton until 2012 ish, then the JSF would be based there. And then along came the politicians.

RNAS Yeovilton - Potential severe noise impact/short runway/too far from training areas.

Noise impact? Bollox!
Short Runway? For a V/STOL aircraft? And it's not that short is it?
Too far from training areas? Apart from the air to air training areas over the South West and the Bristol Channel...

A Government spokesperson said "We only care about ourselves and out majority...."

[serf]

Was Lossie not previously RNAS?

[Lionel Lion]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

God can you not help but mention the SHAR!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Step away from the Sea Harrier WEBF, its over. Let it go.

:rolleyes:

[althenick]

Was Lossie not previously RNAS?

Yep! AKA HMS Fulmar.

Why is it, in todays changing environment, essential to keep the Nimrod at ISK and fighters at Leuchars? Apparently the threat from round the corner has gone! So for once, apply common sense and base the new aircraft at locations that suit the tasking.

Well ok Markerboy - where would you put them? I think they're just as valid where they are going than anywhere else. The cold war is over granted so in today's environment where would they go? Why move squadrons plus infrastructure to other bases. (Nimrod) you've got a point about Leuchars though. Would it not be more sensible to move 'Other' Nimrods from Wad up to ISK?

Al - Lossie Loon

[ranger703]

Why is it that people(Washington) continue to knock Scotland?Lossie is a beautiful part of the world and some,if not the best low flying available,is on the doorstep.Add to that the best range in the country nearby,quality of life,clean air,great whisky,what more could a guy ask for.

How long is it since you visited this part of the country,a bloody long time ago from the sounds of things!!40 mins drive to Inverness which is or certainly was the fastest growing city in the UK ,a fine albeit small airport with links to all the major London airports.A great shopping centre with 24hr supermarkets.

And then there is always the numerous fine golf courses,for those that way inclined,great fishing,Aviemore for the skiing,when snow permits and the new resort there is coming along very nicely.

I was posted up here in the late 80's and have settled here permanently.Negative comments,whether in jest or not,don't help alleviate the worries a lot will have about possible relocation in the future.

I am just thankfull that Scotland has finally won something and that we aint as short sighted up here.Yes I am sad for the bases that have lost out down south but their loss is Scotlands gain.

Rant over.

PS.I'm English!!

[the funky munky]

Rhetorical mode on:

So where will CVF be based? Portsmouth!


Distance from Lossie to Pompey = 600 miles give or take.

Rhetorical mode off:

Does this mean that to deploy to the carriers JCA/JSF will need to tank?

Rant mode on:

I see the scottish mafia have torpedoed the MOD once again, yeh wunt teh fight a wur lads? Aye ok jest soo lung as we keep oor arses wipt by teh Labour paarrteh.

One of these days the powers will be will want help out of the cack and there will be no one left.

A decision to rival any by General Melchett, baah!

Words fail me:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Washington_Irving]

Ranger,
If the song is to be believed, the four and twenty virgins have long since departed Inverness for Southern climes, so what is the point of the place now apart from it being a convenient 11 hr train ride away from London? It's not as if commerical air travel is the most convenient form of transport. As for golf, I don't own a set of career sticks since I never had the patience and lets be honest, it's not as if the Home Counties lack such facilities.

(EDIT) So, in your opinion an 86 mile round trip is an acceptable distance for a trip to Tesco? Fair enough mate, whatever floats your boat.

[ranger703]

Trains are way to expensive when you can fly to London for £100 return,a lot cheaper if you book in advance.I got a flight not long ago with BMI for £42 return and that was to Heathrow.If you want to get somewhere in a decent time,there are always ways and means.11hrs by train!!not me,only took me 8hrs to fly back from Bosnia routing through Austria and London.

Elgin has a perfectly good Tesco and Asda for that matter,was referring only to 24hr shopping as stated.

Everyone has their opinions,was just stating my own unbiased view.Really can't see what all the bad vibes are about.Inverness BTW has some top totty,a fair few pubs open till 3am(during the week as well),a cracking nightclub and try telling the thousands of southerners who have already relocated that there is no point to Inverness.Maybe your a smog and grime man?

[caspertheghost]

The distance from a base to the carriers home port is irrelevant. As you may be aware the carrier sometimes leaves port and goes elsewhere, so it doesn't matter a jot if Lossie isn't near Pompey if the boat is somewhere in the Indian Ocean.
It seems as though this is turning into a bit of an anti-Scotland thread rather than discussing the original point. Fair play, if you don't want to live there then that's fine, but there are plenty of people who don't want to live in Lincs or E Anglia. Why the bitterness about 3 bases in Scotland staying open? I'm rather more disappointed about the ones that we are losing.
It could be a lot worse....

[pr00ne]

So, JCA to Lossiemouth, where are all the Tonkas going to go then? Isn't the place chokka block with them and Marham stuffed full of folk doing Tonka Depth work, using all 5 hangars if RAF News propaganda rag is to be believed..................

[Roadster280]

"When, exactly, did the primary purpose of HM Forces become being a subsidy and de facto jobs programme for rural backwaters whose only notable assets are lots of big rocks and thousands of sheep?"

Since the labour government got in, it seems to me.

[ORAC]

Pr00ne: So, JCA to Lossiemouth, where are all the Tonkas going to go then?

Just down the road:

At a press conference at RAF Lossiemouth, Group Captain Russ Torbet, Station Commander at RAF Lossiemouth said....that as RAF Lossiemouth began to build up the Joint Combat Aircraft they would relocate at least some of the base’s Tornado GR4s based at the station to RAF Kinloss from around 2013.

[Washington_Irving]

Ranger,
What's the point of 24 hour opening if you have to drive halfway across the country to get there?

"Everyone has their opinions,was just stating my own unbiased view.Really can't see what all the bad vibes are about.Inverness BTW has some top totty,a fair few pubs open till 3am(during the week as well),a cracking nightclub and try telling the thousands of southerners who have already relocated that there is no point to Inverness."

Once again, being on the lash until 3am is all well and good until you have to get home. Similarly, with regard to the laydees, you'd have to rely on exceptionally good drills and made sure you went back to her place if you pulled since, let's face it, what kind of crazy bird would get in the car with a drunken stranger to be driven, once again, halfway across Scotland?

"A cracking nightclub?"

Somehow I don't think that any singlie that posts here won't have some sort of issue with your use of the singular indefinite article in that statement.

"Maybe your a smog and grime man?"

Au contraire, my dear fellow. I'm a country boy, born and raised, albeit a country boy that appreciates having the conveniences of modern life close to hand. Just because I don't appreciate living like I'm trapped in an episode of the League of Gentlemen or Monarch of the Glen, it doesn't mean I'm city slicker.

P.S. Don't get offended. It's all banter, mate. :D

[Griz]

Washington

Since you seem to be having a problem with supermarket availability in the Elgin area: ASDA 24/7, Tesco 24/7 both about 5 miles from base and about a mile from the biggest married patch. Floating boats is only required if the River Lossie floods.

On smog and grime; we have it up here as well. Why the other day the visibility was down to 30km.

[Cattivo]

Having read a lot of low-brow jock-bashing from idiots who either haven't lived in Scotland or are too soft to enjoy the lifestyle I ask myself the question whats so good about england?

Its obviously got to be the gridlock on any chosen motorway which trebles the journey time to supposed civilisation. Is it the the beautifully dull scenery (ie flat farmland or characterless rows of industrial housing)? Is it the raft of english people who have no identity so seek solace in putting down other nationalities (thats why the english are so universally disliked) and lack any modicum of politeness. Someone mentioned proximity to London as being a good thing. Don't make me laugh.

So. really. Whats so good about england and the xenophobic, arrogant populace that inhabit it?

[HighlandSniper58]

I thought the jockistanis wanted 'Independence' from the mainland - so why are we intent on basing all of our military air north of the border?

Wrong! Only a minority of ill-informed morons are of that opinion - note the SNP's standing in the electoral rankings, I think not.

Clearly those who continue to knock Lossie/Kinloss are the unfortunate few who have never visited this green and pleasant land. Obviously there is an element consisting of dedicated townies, fenland in-breeds, and others who can't live without their daily dose in English industrial pollution who would not settle in deepest Jockistan, but it's quite incredible to see the number that do - in fact the population of true-blues Jocks such as myself is so diluted by white settlers bearing a subdued roundel tattooed on each buttock, that it's hardly like Jockistan at all.

If only the powers that be would develop a paraffin budgie that didn't make so much bloody noise - the only form of pollution we have to suffer apart from that affecting the local dialect.

Bye-bye Tonka, hello JSF...............you'll have to speak up, I can't hear you for the aircraft noise! :confused:

[Bclass]

Wrong! Only a minority of ill-informed morons are of that opinion - note the SNP's standing in the electoral rankings, I think not.

Err, that must be the reason why Moray (where Highland Potshot lives) elected a SNP MP.......

[Bear 555]

Surely the comment has been made already - and it's nothing to do with nationalistic humour.

Finance - how much can HMG make by selling off surplus bases and facilities in south and east of England compared with those in the far North?

It's really not hard to figure

[chevvron]

Take a look at Rotorheads re the future of St Mawgan

[HighlandSniper58]

Err, that must be the reason why Moray (where Highland Potshot lives) elected a SNP MP.......

..........and how many MPs do they have nationally - not a lot!

The ScotNats have a very small minority interest in Westminster and far from a controlling interest in Holyrood - does that look like independence to you?

You know it makes sense to base the JSF /Nimrod here in Scotland for the very reason we have maintained the bases up here since the late 1930s.

As for the garbage about JSF being based at Lossie and CVF sailing from Portsmouth - the RN based carrier-borne aircraft at Lossie for decades, did they ever have problems flying-on pre-deployment........No! So why that crap now?

[Navaleye]

Yeovilton used to operate Phantoms. The runway length was no problem then. Sounds like bull to me.

[vecvechookattack]

Yeovilton used to operate Phantoms.

Yeah, but that was prior to 1980 when Mr Mcall took his field back. The runway was a tadge longer in those days.


Besides, we don't want JSF at Yeovilton. It's taken us nearly 25 years to get rid of that whining noise.

[Lyneham Lad]

It's taken us nearly 25 years to get rid of that whining noise.

Has the Sea Harrier thread been going that long? :E

Sorry WEBF, couldn't resist.......

(I'll get my coat......)

[the funky munky]

Didn't wish to appear to be jock bashing, temper got the better of me. It was the crass decision to base the aircraft soooo far from the carriers that appalls me.

I know there must be fairness and balance but come on it would be a better idea to place JCA somewhere near the centre of the UK rather than just south of the Orkneys.

Surely the high costs of the fuel expenditure by hoover MkIII deploying to mother could be used to justify stretching the runways of airfields closer to Pompey?

Oh well I am still reeling from the decision to move Lynx from Portland to Yeovilton!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Why not opt for the third way and have them at Lossiemouth AND Yeovilton........ take the RN sqns and base them at an RN Air Station (ie Yeovilton), and bring them under the command of CINCFLEET?

Expect I'll get flamed to death for this. :rolleyes:

[RileyDove]

Cattivo - what I have never been able to understand why so many Scots leave Scotland for jobs in England and elsewhere.
Great as it is to have a green land and hardly any industry - it
also doesn't allow for many jobs. Regards bases - close one and
improve the facilities of the others.

[althenick]

Why not opt for the third way and have them at Lossiemouth AND Yeovilton........ take the RN sqns and base them at an RN Air Station (ie Yeovilton), and bring them under the command of CINCFLEET?

WEBF,
I think one of the reason's is that they dont know what JCA variant they're going to buy yet. It has been intimated elswhere Yeovil's runway is shorter than in it's fixed wing days, So if they go for the CV Variant then it would be a problem. Also Lossie has a very good Bombing range nearby (Tain) The RN operated a plethora of strike a/c from lossie during the '50's, '60's, & '70's and all the carriers where based in Pompey/Guzz. From '72 - '78 The old Arks airwing was stationed...

Gannets - Lossie - As there was commonality with the Shackleton
Buccs - Honnington Why I dont know as all the infrastructure was in Lossie (Including a perfectly good Simulator)
Phantoms - Leuchars with the RAF's Phighters

...That puts the "miles from the carriers" argument to bed I think

As for being under the command of CINCFleet, aren't they just that when at sea?

[the funky munky]

In the COLD war we rightly placed FAA and RAF bases on the coast nearest to the USSR. It doesn't mean that this is the best idea today or in the forseeable future.

If you want to tackle todays threats place QRA bases on the south coasts to stop Airliners full of terrorists flying into London. Oh we do that already.

As I recall Gannets, Phantoms, Buccaneers and Wessex were based at Culdrose, Yeovilton and Porland so you are right they were near the carriers (based at Devonport if I am not mistaken).

The only reason Lossie got JCA and Kinloss got Nimod was politics, it stinks even wose than Baldricks codpiece.

Well that Nu Labour fo you.

[Trumpet_trousers]

Somewhat inevitable, given that the clue is in the thread title......












JSF

J ocki S tani F ighter..:ugh:

[ranger703]

"Cattivo - what I have never been able to understand why so many Scots leave Scotland for jobs in England and elsewhere.
Great as it is to have a green land and hardly any industry - it
also doesn't allow for many jobs"

Funny how there has been an influx of over 20'000 people to the Inverness area in the last few years,a vast majority of whom are from down souff.

"Also Lossie has a very good Bombing range nearby (Tain)"

Hurrah,someone who knows what they are talking about,cheers.

[Cattivo]

Yeah, plenty of Scots do emigrate for work but you don't hear them whinging about it.

Political decision for MRA4 at Kinloss?! With the investment in Kinloss and capabilities of the new frame, why base it anywhere else? ....unless 'being nearer your family' is a valid strategic reason.

[RileyDove]

Cattivo - exactly right! You don't hear those that have emigrated whining about it. Twenty thousand coming into the Inverness area is a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers that have left. Not anti Scottish as such - I do however feel that Scotland needs it's politicians to work better for them .

[ranger703]

Having secured the future of its 3 main bases,I think the politicians have done damn well.Reopen Rosyth I say and relocate the CVN's too.

[RileyDove]

That will be the Scottish politicians that work in Westminster. The Scottish parliament hasn't got quite the same track record of economic growth!

[baffy boy]

"So. really. Whats so good about england and the xenophobic, arrogant populace that inhabit it?"

cattivo you are a racist git. You give yourself away by the less than subtle use of lower case e in England. Typical, just like the reporters in Scottish newspapers, particurlarly sports writers. Talk about xenophobic and arrogant? Pot, kettle. Oh and by the way, last time I looked the ethnic diversity of Scotland didn't quite match that of England.

Your attitude and that of people like you is why it can be unpleasant for non Scots to be based in Scotland. Lack of jobs for dependents due to race bias and the pathetic belief that Mel Gibson got it right in Braveheart. It's not a bad place to live but it's not good either. The pubs and restaraunts just are not as good as they could be. It's cold. It's further away from the core of UK population than most of RAFG was, and there is not enough recompense for that. If you want to go on holiday out of the country it's a major deal. Don't give me that stuff about cheap flights from Inverness Ranger, it ain't cheap if you have a family. Families and the expense of travel is one thing but the place sucks for singlies. Plain and simple, it sucks. For that reason it might be significant from a 'strategic' aspect. Ask most prospective 20 yr old prospective WSOs whether they would rather be at Kinloss for the foreseeable future or ANYWHERE in England. What about the JSF community? Not only the operators, what about the groundcrew? Are the MRA4/JSF people going to be signing up for a life North of the border? Recruitment and retention (specially among WSO/WSOps) might be healthier if the Nimrods were to be 'somewhere in England'. We might have a happier bunch of folks overall, which might be operationally significant in the long term.

Apart from that, and away from human factors, I have never understood how it makes financial sense to base so many people as far North as Kinloss. The logistics for one. Spares and supplies being constantly trucked such a distance. The cost of moving people backwards and forwards, not only on posting but on courses. Meetings. Anytime someone has to go anywhere mainstream it's expensive. Heating the hangars and work spaces. Surely it is more expensive to run Kinloss per capita than Waddington, for example?

I've been based at Coningsby, Honington, St Mawgan, Laarbruch, Wildenrath, in Australia and the States, twice at Kinloss. There were many good things about Kinloss but none as good as the view in the rear view mirror on posting and none better than anywhere else I've been. You get numb to it after a couple of years being there and it does not seem so bad but you realize what you have been missing when you go somewhere else.

With the RAF reducing in size the way it is, how can it make sense to leave so much of it so far North? It can only be some sort of political sop to the Scots, and that is not fair to our next generation, or to the majority of taxpayers.

The decision has been made and we'll live with it. But the reasons don't really stand up to scrutiny do they?

Here's a tongue in cheek example with respect to not basing JSF at Kinloss due to the birdstrike hazard (Kinloss and Lossie being about 12 miles apart).

UK Birdstrike Data
The CAA's view is that the volume of birdstrikes reported at a particular airport or aerodrome does not imply greater hazard. Due to the limitations of unanalysed raw data, users should exercise extreme caution in forming any conclusion or opinion based on quantitive data alone.

Yeah I know about the migration stuff.

From a man at the right end of his Service,
Good night and good luck.

[Griz]

cattivo you are a racist git. You give yourself away by the less than subtle use of lower case e in England.

I think you'll find the majority of racist comments in this thread are anti-scottish.

There, I've used a lower case 's'. That makes it equal. It takes a special kind of arrogance to get on your high horse about such trivia.

IMHO there is a world of difference between Kinloss and Lossie. Kinloss has an older, more laid back feel. It also feels considerably more isolated than Lossie and I can sympathise with singlies stuck in the blocks. However no more so than singlies stuck in all other bases in the middle of nowhere. (Marham springs instantly to mind)

It does however, make sense to replace a noisy strike aircraft with another noisy strike aircraft when

a. The locals are already used to the noise and have come to depend on the RAF for employment both directly and indirectly. (Whatever your opinion on this, the government has a responsibility to these types of communities wherever they may be)

b. The playground is so open and largely devoid of people to complain about low flying jets. If BB advocates locating the whole airforce down south I bet he still expects to export the noise up north. Once again Scotland would be used as a dumping ground for pollutants.

[Mad_Mark]

Ask most prospective 20 yr old prospective WSOs whether they would rather be at Kinloss for the foreseeable future or ANYWHERE in England. What about the JSF community? Not only the operators, what about the groundcrew? Are the MRA4/JSF people going to be signing up for a life North of the border? Recruitment and retention (specially among WSO/WSOps) might be healthier if the Nimrods were to be 'somewhere in England'. We might have a happier bunch of folks overall, which might be operationally significant in the long term.

And then ask those same WSO/WSOps again after they have spent a tour or 2 in Moray and you may well be surprised at the answer given by most. The number of people at Kinloss that were dreading the MRA4 being based at Waddo, the big cheer and many, many smiling faces when the final decission was announced, including many of those that initially did not want to go up north, may well be strange to you. Yes, there are a few singlies that just don't make the most of the area, come up here with the attitude that they will not enjoy themselves and as a result they don't.

As has been said already, the area is very close to some superb training grounds for Nimrod and GR4/JCA, has good flying weather for more days a year than the Vale of York/East Anglia, has airspace that is not the skies equivalent of the M25, has great adventure training facilities from the mountains to the coast, has large 24/7 supermarkets within 10 minutes drive, no traffic jams, very little crime, etc, etc. And despite what many will have you think, the majority of the locals are very friendly if YOU take the time to get to know them and don't refer to them in derogatory ways, like many here seem to do.

I am one of those that wanted posting to 42 Sqn when it was at St. Mawgan, but got Kinloss instead. Did not look forward to coming up north because of what I heard from people talking s#!t, like many on here, but I quickly grew to love the place and am one of those that do not want to go back south. If the place is so bad how come so many English have settled up here over the years, after leaving the RN and RAF :confused:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Cattivo]

Not much substance to your argument I have to say (and did you actually answer my question?).

'xenophobic and arrogant- no you are' Good argument. Have you read the previous posts?

Its cold and its far away from my family - This is the military mate not the f***in boy scouts. If you were based at Kinloss surely you would know about the Moray Firth microclimate. Again, you blatantly ignore the isolation of St. Mawgan/ Valley or the freeze factor of any base on the eastern coast of England (there are you happy now) due to polar continental influence. Heating of hangars!! Are you mental.

Its bad for nightlife - Yeah, another heavyweight strategic argument. Do you think Out of Areas should be stopped too? There not good for recruitment either.

Cost of logistics and re-supply of parts - So its going to be a cheap option to re-locate two infrastructures and 4000 personnel 400 miles south is it? You've just wiped out any negligible amtrak savings.

And lastly, I have no idea what your point about the bird hazard was.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Yes, there are a few singlies that just don't make the most of the area, come up here with the attitude that they will not enjoy themselves and as a result they don't.

What a fantastic sweeping statement.

Believe it or not some 'singlies' aren't interested in pulling on a pair of red socks and hiking boots and roaming in the gloaming every weekend. Strangely some singlies quite enjoy going home to see their friends, family or perhaps travelling to somewhere civilised to enjoy a weekend of clubbing etc.

'Griz' makes a comparison between Marham and Kinloss, if you can tell me how a singly can get to a major city (London, Birmingham, Manchester etc) from Kinloss in a similar time scale to someone based at Marham I'd love to know. Travelling at legal speeds (which we as representatives of the RAF should surly stick to) it would take 11 hours to drive to London and thats without stopping. Bearing in mind that singlies (and perhaps married persons too) might not be able to get away from work early on poets day (what with the increased workloads we all have) this makes for a very short weekend with a minimum of 22 hours driving involved. Of course there is also the cost on top of that.

Ok, its a fairly severe comparison, not everyone comes from London or wishes to travel there every weekend but what is good for 'us' now may not be what future prospective members of the RAF want. Its bad enough now for new entrants with the limited choices of posting available in this shrinking air force, how much more difficult will it be to tempt (single) folk into a career if that career means the very real prospect of ending up in the middle of nowhere, hundreds of miles from their loved ones? And yes, of course when I joined up I wanted to see the world and this I believe is still part of the reasons many join up but Scotland is not 'the world', its another part of this island.

Another problem with Scotland which concerns me more (as I'm married) is the lack of work for spouses. Not every wife (or husband even) will be happy to work stacking shelves in Forres and thats only if work can be found. Scots move south for work for a reason. I wouldn't be happy for my wife to adopt the lifestyle of so many patch wives of wearing leggings, high heels and sweatshirts and hanging around the Spar shop/HIVE all day. I married a woman who is an intelligent professional who gained a doctorate in order to do something with her life and earn a good wage for herself, not to sit back and live off the wage I bring in.

[grousehunter]

Well I was one of those twenty something WSOps who knew the only place they would be posted was either Kinloss or Waddo. And you know what? After being at Cranwell the last place I wanted to stay was Lincs!!!! And after many happy years at Kinloss I don't want to be anywhere else!

I cant wait to get my hands on the new aircraft with all the capability it will bring, and to those detractors of both the MRA4 and Kinloss who went to Waddo - a big up yours!!!!!!

[BEagle]

Whilst I can accept the fact that MRA4 - if it ever makes it into service - should be based at ISK, to base JSF at Lossiemouth seems a very political jobs-for-jocks decision. Particularly after the enormous amount of money spent on RAF Leeming when it was upgraded from a humble Learning Command station to accept the F3. Will the dung-eaters really be allowed to ruin yet another famous RAF station?

St Mawgan doesn't have the world's best weather factor, of course, so nice as the idea of basing the aircraft there would seem, it was always going to be a non-starter. Although a large aerodrome available in the south west does meet other needs, particularly for diversions off the ocean. Perhaps Newquay airport can be upgraded to major airport standard - but it would need vastly improved road access and huge investment.

Yeovilton? How on earth can anyone consider the runway 'too short' for a STOVL aircraft.......

Lincolnshire has always been 'Bomber County'. Thousands of us served at Scampton and Waddington alone in V-force days and, given the opportunity again, would jump at the chance. It was a great lifestyle

[JessTheDog]

This announcement is probably tied to the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections - I'd personally wait until we see whether the carriers are coming before I got excited about the aircraft type that is supposed to be on it.

If the carriers fall through or are cut back, I cannot see the RAF getting jets of the same type that were intended to be on it.

[HighlandSniper58]

I've been based at Coningsby, Honington, St Mawgan, Laarbruch, Wildenrath, in Australia and the States, twice at Kinloss. There were many good things about Kinloss but none as good as the view in the rear view mirror on posting and none better than anywhere else I've been. You get numb to it after a couple of years being there and it does not seem so bad but you realize what you have been missing when you go somewhere else.

Baffy boy old chap - this may well be your opinion of your time at Kinloss, however is is way off that of a very significant majority. A huge proportion of the services population of both Lossie and Kinloss love it up here, and very many opt to stay here after getting out. I would venture to say that the Moray area has one of the best records for retention of ex-RAF families of any region.

This thread has been so perverted and biased by the anti-Jockland elements with little or no consideration for the many who love it.

For once our (not so) beloved MoD have got this one right, accept it and stop whinging. We Jocks are the ones who are going to have to put up with the new noisy F-35 keeping it well away from England's green and not so pleasant land.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

a) The relocation and realignment of FAA Harrier units (once the beloved Sea Jet (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98152)) is gone results in these aircraft doing less carrier based training. And morale will continue to suffer at being under RAF control.
b) An RAF Officer takes over as CDS.
c) Comments are made that because of the transit time from Lossiemouth to the channel/South West approaches the carriers appear less feasible.
d) This is used as another argument to bin CVF, and end the RN's days as a world player.....

Paranoid? Possibly. Suspicious of politicians? Certainly. Not anti Scottish at all, but anti New Labour.

althenick I believe (though might be wrong) that fixed wing carrier aircraft still come under Strike Command.

[Washington_Irving]

Wow, the Jocks bite easily here, don't they? To quote Chief Brody "We're going to need a bigger boat." You're really not doing much to dispel the stereotype of being miserable gits, chaps.

Speaking of which, and just to throw some AVTUR on the fire :E :

The Pride of Scotland (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/coppermine/displayimage/album=8/pos=32.html)

(NB. Not exactly worksafe.)

Awaiting incoming.

:ok:

[serf]

Surely the people you serve with are what makes a good draft - in my reasonably long service, I have been to some REAL sh$tholes and still enjoyed it due to the people I have served with.

I'm sure your wife with her doctorate could get a job anywhere, and with a salary, not wages.

[althenick]

Surely the people you serve with are what makes a good draft - in my reasonably long service, I have been to some REAL sh$tholes and still enjoyed it due to the people I have served with.

Well Said Serf! People are more important than the place. I would also add that assimilation to the local culture goes a long way to making a stay in a distant place far more bearable.

althenick I believe (though might be wrong) that fixed wing carrier aircraft still come under Strike Command.

They do; and when JCA comes into service then (from a support point of view) thats where they should be, But when they're on the Deck then quite rightly they come under the control of CINCFLEET, I would rather the Navy full operational control of their own squadrons though. The problem is that the RAF seems to have it's own agenda when it comes to carrier flying (as history has taught us)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Hence my problem with 800/801 being away from Yeovilton and at any place starting with RAF....

[BEagle]

The local culture....

Medical journal tracks down the deep-fried Mars bar


By SUE LEEMAN | Associated Press
December 17, 2004

LONDON - Like the Loch Ness monster, the deep-fried Mars bar has often been regarded as a Scottish myth.

But a study published Friday in a medical journal confirms that Scots consume thousands of the battered bars each week, and that more than a fifth of fish and chip shops - which specialize in deep-fried food - sell the strange sugary delicacy.

The study was conducted by Dr. David Morrison, a consultant in public health medicine in Glasgow, and Dr. Mark Petticrew, associate director of Glasgow's Medical Research Council Social and Public Health Sciences Unit.

They decided to investigate after the treat was mentioned by television host Jay Leno on America's NBC "Tonight Show."

"We live in Scotland but we'd never actually seen deep-fried Mars bars for sale," said Morrison. "We thought they might be fictitious. But the Scottish diet is a major health issue and it's important to know what the facts are. We can now confirm that there is no doubt - the deep-fried Mars bar is not just an urban myth."

At more than 400 calories per bar, the snack isn't health food. But then, Scotland isn't noted for healthy lifestyles.

Parts of Scotland have the highest incidence of heart disease, cancer and strokes and the lowest life expectancy in the developed world.

Morrison and Petticrew, whose report appears in this week's issue of The Lancet medical journal, called nearly 500 chip shops across Scotland to inquire whether they sold the bars and discovered that 22 percent are proud to offer them, and another 17 percent have done so in the past.

One shop reported selling up to 200 a week.

Children are the main consumers and some shops reported being asked to deep-fry other candy bars, including Snickers and Cadbury's Creme Eggs.

Reports of the deep-fried Mars bar emerged in 1995, when a chip shop in the northeastern Scottish fishing town of Stonehaven said it was selling the delicacy.

News reports said the bar was the result of a bet between the shop's owner and his portly best friend.

The original shop, The Haven, is now the Carron Fish and Chip Bar, run by Calum Richardson.

"They are not my cup of tea but some weeks we sell as many as 300," he said. "I suppose people like them because they are different. At first it was a novelty but not any more."

The Carron charges 70p for a deep-fried Mars bar. Or for £1.70 you can have the supper: deep-fried Mars bar with chips.

[An Teallach]

Whereas: Soggy, greasy fish and chips wi 't mushy peas - haud me back! Jellied eels or shortcrust-encased pig's pizzle and snout (pork pies) mmmmmm (not!).

No wonder so many of you head north to sample our salmon, trout, scallops, mussels, venison, grouse, lamb and prime beef. Forget your deep-fried mars bars, Beags. Why not try here (http://www.nicknairncookschool.com/site/index.php) or here (http://www.claire-macdonald.com/) for a taste of Scotland.

[BEagle]

Well, personally I prefer tail-and-squeal pies to that stuffed sheep's stomach thing you lot make such a song and dance about once a year! Just another excuse for getting whammed on malt - as if you needed one.

Hmm, so maybe not such a bad thing....

Jellied eels and whelks? Hmm, I agree with you there. But have never tried them, thankfully. But fish and chips are fine - but without that vile green sludge known as 'mushy peas'. Which, like pig pancreas pie is something from 'oop Nawth'. Wherever that is....

2 bases in Jockistan is fair enough. But JSF at Lossiemouth simply isn't. It's another Bliarite vote-winning plot!

[althenick]

2 bases in Jockistan is fair enough. But JSF at Lossiemouth simply isn't. It's another Bliarite vote-winning plot!
BEagle - Please explain your logic as to how keeping 2 airbases open in an SNP stronghold (Which was previously a Tory Seat!) is going to win New Labour votes? It doesn't compute with me.
Well, personally I prefer tail-and-squeal pies to that stuffed sheep's stomach thing you lot make such a song and dance about once a year! Just another excuse for getting whammed on malt - as if you needed one.

Haggis orriginates from Yorkshire, along with Scotlands other drink (IRN BRU)

A-T
Thanks for the Nick Nairn Link - I quite fancy the Italian Course - Have never Mastered the arriabatta Sauce properly - I feel a Xmas pressy to myself coming on. You ought to know though that Clare MacDonald is from HARROGATE!

[BEagle]

althenick - it'll just be trumpeted about as NooLabia securing more jobs in Jockistan. At national, rather than constituency level....

[althenick]

But isn't that what happened when the Tories ...

1/ Finished off Rosyth for the Trident refit facility in favour of Guzz?
2/ When they Closed RAF Edzell and moved it all down to Digby / Forrest Moor and Oak?
3/ Closed Machrahannish Without NATO approval
4/ Closed Pitreavie (which afterwards they admitted was a mistake)
5/ Closed RAF Turnhouse
6/ Closed RNAD Crombie

and...

(anger mode activated)
7/ TOTALLY MURDERED THE RNR BY TAKING THEIR (A) SHIPS AND (B) SEA TRAINING CENTRES reducing the number of units in Scotland from 5 to 2 at a stroke.
(anger mode disabled)

... It doesn't matter which government is in power they will always pander to their own constituents - Fact.

[RileyDove]

Absolutely shocking ill informed media reporting! Have they never
heard of deep fried pizza's yet!

[The Helpful Stacker]

I say we give Scotland full independence and in doing so grant them an air force suitable for their needs, say the BBMF and perhaps teeny weenie airways.

Minus the Apache's of course, we wouldn't want the Jockistanis wasting their apparent potential hunting the elusive hill circling beastie that is the haggis.

With the money saved by England not having to subsidise the most unhealthy country in Europe's health system we could buy a whole host of shiny new battlefield helicopters for the RAF to replace the Lynx and screaming chicken leg squadrons.

Of course the loss of the BBMF would be a blow.

;)

[An Teallach]

THS
I say we give Scotland full independence
How jolly decent of you old chap. However, should Scotland decide to dissolve the union, we'll do it quite happily for ourselves. There is no question of being 'given independance.' :rolleyes:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Oh how quaint, the Scots still believe they really had a choice about forming a union with England.

Bless.

[buoy15]

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, and I am loving it!

You anti-Jockland, anti-porridge eating, anti-skirt wearing, anti-pipe skirling, anti-highland games bigots, most who have never been north of the border, except for a free lunch land-away because the weather has been cr*p south of Birmingham, have finally come home to roost

If you are semi-retired, fed up and spoilt, like Beags, you are OK!

If you are looking for a career, bite the bullet - otherwise, I suggest you sup up your half pint, hand back the Queen's Shilling to the Press Gang, wash your glass and Sod Off!

ISK & ISL secure for the next 30 years! Rah!

As an aside, tell the missus we have ASDA, B&Q and M&S up here, with public transport every 15 minutes and petrol at 97.4p per litre

Loving many, Trusting a few, north of the border is good for you!

[ranger703]

Petrol 87.9p at Morrisons in Inverness today!!

Had lunch today in a Michelin Star restaraunt,in fact spoilt for choice as far as excellent eateries are concerned.

Tis great listening to all this anti-scottish banter,sour grapes me thinks in a lot of cases.I have spent time at Lyneham,Leeming,Shawbury,Waddo,Leuchars,Lossie and spent short periods at many more including Cotty and Marham.London is not the centre of the universe and I would argue that if you really wanted to get there we have just as good transport links as any of those places.Yeah for a singlie wishing to drive south it is a drag but then again no different for a scot based at Coltishall or wherever wishing to come home.

Whilst at Lyneham,myself and my family used to fly back to Inverness at least once a month,but I am fortunate in that my wife has a career,yes a military wife with a career!!and money wasnt a great issue although for 3 of us it was rarely more than a few hundred quid.

Me thinks a lot bad mouthing up here have either not been at all or certainly not for a long time.

Anyway,might all be pre-empted as the US are looking at pulling the airforce variant of the F35!

[JessTheDog]

Oh how quaint, the Scots still believe they really had a choice about forming a union with England.


The Union of the Parliaments in 1707 was the second part of a two-part process that begun in 1603 when the Union of the Crowns occurred.

That was when a Scottish king (James VI) succeeded an English monarch (Elizabeth I) to become King James I of Scotland and England. The term "Britain" became popular in the 18th Century.

So put that in your nancy English shandy glass and drink it! ;)

[BEagle]

From Microsoft Autoroute:

Search radius 20 miles

Hospitals: Brize Norton 5 Kinloss 2 Valley 2 Leeming 2 St Mawgan 3 Yeovilton 3

Hotels and motels: Brize Norton 121 Kinloss 19 Valley 26 Leeming 98 St Mawgan 90 Yeovilton 42

Petrol and Auto Services: Brize Norton 231 Kinloss 43 Valley 72 Leeming 163 St Mawgan 167 Yeovilton 235

Railway stations: Brize Norton 18 Kinloss 4 Valley 5 Leeming 12 St Mawgan 18 Yeovilton 13

Restaurants: Brize Norton 145 Kinloss 13 Valley 13 Leeming 73 St Mawgan 57 Yeovilton 54

Pubs: Brize Norton 227 Kinloss 2 Valley 10 Leeming 96 St Mawgan 93 Yeovilton 133

OK - so what. Well, that's just a snapshot of local services all of which have been independently assessed. Draw whatever conclusions you will.

[ranger703]

You really trust Microsoft Beags?!? Ok 1 by 1,but first why did you not compare with Cottesmore or Waddington.Brize was never in the running for either JSF or MR4,St.Mawgan is just as isolated and was never really in the running anyway,Valley and Leeming I can understand and maybe at a push Yeovilton,but they would never have accepted the noise issue.

Ok

Hospitals,right there 1 in Elgin and 1 in Forres,albeit a small one,I would have included Raigmore in Inverness though as its only 30mins drive and I am sure that even the closest to Brize is more than a 30min drive away!!

Hotels and Motels:Forres,Nairn,Lossie and Elgin are all within 20 miles of Kinloss and Elgin alone as more than 19!!

Petrol and Auto Services:Not really a factor as you don't need to travel that far to get what you need.

Restaraunts:Again I would say that this number is very underestimated for the same reason as I have stated re hotels.

Pubs:You gotta be havin a laff here,you are trying to tell me that you reallythink that there are only 2 pubs within a 20mile radius of Kinloss,cmon,now I know you are talking with no knowledge of the area.

The conclusion I draw is that you or most certainly Microsoft are talking sh**e!

[BEagle]

Thank you for your polite and considered response.

The categories used by Microsoft are unknown to me. But they represent a level playing field for comparative purposes.

My selections were nothing to do with JSF or MRA4 basing, they were intended to show the levels of local services available in the vicinity of typical UK bases.

[ranger703]

"Thank you for your polite and considered response."

Your most welcome.You have to remember also that local services
serve just that,the local community and thankfully the local community at Kinloss is far smaller than any of the bases you compared them to,Valley is probably the closest comparison.

Personally out of all this,all arguments digested and considered,I really think that the main reason for basing JSF at Lossie is the noise factor,exactly the same reason why Leuchars was preferred to Leeming with Typhoon.

Maybe once they have 'tried it out' on the Scots in the same way that they tried the Poll Tax here first,then if its not as bad as first thought maybe they will consider basing it south of the border.

[RileyDove]

Is the Typhoon really more noisy than the F3 ? I would have thought the Typhoon was quite a bit more eager to get off the ground. As for Joint Strike Whatever - I have a funny feeling
that we already have it thinly disguised as the Typhoon!

[ranger703]

Yes Typhoon really is a LOT noisier than the F3,probably the noisiest aircraft I have heard at an airshow in many a year.

From reading other forums and comments made by people who have seen the F35 fly during tests,that again is even noisier in full reheat.

[BEagle]

Did you ever hear the Yak 141 at Farnborough? That was LOUD - particularly when hovering! It also melted the runway on one occasion, allegedly.

[RileyDove]

Ranger - In respect to yourself where you around in the days of the Lightning? Is it comparable ? The noise issue in terms of these I feel is a little thin - the Typhoon must have a greater rate of climb to the F.3 and surely that would make it's noise footprint smaller.

[Hummingfrog]

Beagle you have obviously not been posted to either Lossie or Kinloss and are talking without that foundation. What you say can therefore be discounted in any reasonable argument.

I have been stationed at Lossie and still fly out of Kinloss and it is one of the best areas of the UK to live. It would have been interesting if you had included in your list the number of :-

1. Murders - there have been 2 in my time here and they are both still being talked about as they are so rare
2. Rapes.
3. Child abuse cases.
4. Assaults.
5. Robberies.

This area is still a law abiding area in which people are interested and look after their neighbours. I used to let my kids (boy and girl) wander to their hearts content, with their mates, in the fields and gorse around our village knowing that they were perfectly safe. Someone would always be keeping an eye on them because they were "village kids" and your neighbours would always be aware of what was going on.

I also find it quite an eyeopener being a member of an ethnic minority (I'm 1/2 English 1/2 Welsh) although being married to a Scot means that I'm only called a white settler in jest (I think).

The reasons that Kinloss and Lossie are being kept open has been well documented and boils down mainly to economics. If you shut the bases they aren't worth anything and you would then have to support the area from the general tax account.

Secondary considerations are that the wx factor here is excellent and the training areas are on the doorstep. Tain range for the FJs and Moray Firth for the Nimrod

The "English" are also becoming very NIMBY and would probably want endless enquiries if a noisy jet was imposed on them.

Let the aircraft be based in the most suitable economic and operational area and accept that that is Scotland and forget how far it is from that awful place called London:)


HF

[ranger703]

Riley,I joined up in 1986 so yes I was around when Lightning graced the skies.In all honesty I couldnt say whether or not they compare,sure Lightning was loud, as indeed was the Vulcan,which I remember fondly from airshows.However it is such a long time since I heard Lightning that I can only go on recent experience and that is that Typhoon is very loud indeed.Maybe Brunty could hold a noise competition between the two.

Noise from rate of climb is indeed an issue, but the primary noise factor comes from the power-up and reheat kick-in prior to the aircraft rolling, as with most aircraft.I don't see Typhoon under normal ops carrying out high climb rates after take-off whether it is capable or not. Certainly at CBY at the moment it carries out conventional take-offs and is most certainly louder than the F3 which is only to be expected really considering the performance of its engines.

[Mad_Mark]

Beags, what does Microshaft have to say about muggings, house breakings, traffic jams, speed cameras, etc? But then again, so many of the figures you gave for Kinloss were wrong... Only 2 pubs within 20 miles of Kinloss, and you believed it enough to type it here :p

As for the comment "Wow, the Jocks bite easily here, don't they?", well sorry to disapoint, but I defend RAF Moray (which you are bound to have classed a bite) and I come from the south east of England - so blows that argument out of the water. And why do people assume that all singlies are so desperate to get into London for a night out? Aberdeen is a superb night out and is about the same travelling time from Moray as London is from Marham, I've had many a good night out in Inverness too. Never seen or tasted a deep fried Mars bar, though I do know they exist, but they are probably far nicer than tripe :yuk:

Professional wives not getting work? Must tell that to all those that work here as teachers/doctors/nurses/vets/etc.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Safety_Helmut]

Ranger

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Typhoon will not actually need reheat on take off for most sorties. Perhaps someone with a closer working knowledge of Typhoon can confirmn that ?

Safety_Helmut

[ranger703]

Indeed it doesnt require reheat and from the many pictures of aircraft departing CBY I have seen recently, they are not using it at all.Just goes to show how powerful the engines actually are.

[Griz]

Or how light it is with no payload

Hang on a minute.

From Microsoft Autoroute:

Since when did that become a reliable source of local facilities. The first time I ever tried it (a long time ago granted) it gave me a route from Finningley to somewhere in Ayrshire via Glasgow, Dunoon, back over to Gourock on the ferry and down the coast!

Good to see it\'s still spouting sh**!

BTW Beags is that what you had to resort to on the Dog when you weren't issued with a nav? :p

[DEL Mode]

Typhoon is noisier (like for like) than F3 at particular power settings. Di-Con nozzles and all that. Typhoon produces more thrust both dry and wet. Point is converting that thrust to forward motion is a lot less of a problem. Noise production is a function of drag (excess energy). Work it out yourself. More you stick on that increase drag the more noise you are going to make.

Typhoon will get airborne without RH. Nice young things in cockpit wanting to impress the girlfriend will proably ignore that fact, so aircraft will carry a tag of being noisy.

BEagle, I notice in your comparison you missed one very important factor. You did not include Marham i your analysis. As one of the handful of bases left once the North-South devide has been created it is a hole, and that is where lots of people will have to work.

Choise of Moray or Swamp, I know were I will be off.

[Washington_Irving]

At the ACCGS feeder at Syerston back in the early nineties I personally witnessed the Jock cabbage mechanic deep-fry a pizza. Out of morbid curiosity, I actually tried some. Strangely enough, it was absolutely minging.

The chippy that's about 1/4 mile from the gates at Leuchars used to do deep-fried Mars bars. By the way, is there anyone out there who can tell me what the hell that "sauce", found in every Scottish chippy, is supposed to be?

[BEagle]

OK then,

Hospitals: Marham 1

Hotels and motels: Marham 33

Petrol and Auto Services: Marham 167

Railway stations: Marham 9

Restaurants: Marham 21

Pubs: Marham 41

And no, I certainly don't consider that Microsoft Autoroute is always right. But whatever sorting criteria they use for selection of entries must surely be universal, so comparisons may well be valid.

Leuchars even used to provide 'jock pies' as part of our in-flight rations. Absolutely gopping and layered in grease...

[DEL Mode]

BEagle,

I agree with your principle, but I think Microsoft must be using flawed data.

Point is RAF culture is changing. Personnel spend so much time away now that all they want to do is come home to a "base". If promotion means moving twenty miles down the road rather than the other end of Britain then thats what will happen.

Good bases are being doomed by NIMBY's.

Bad bases are being saved by vote buying.

Good thing for Scottish the bases is Easyjet.

Additionally, some pepole in Scotland like the fact that they have at least a days warning of intended visitations.

[caspertheghost]

Maybe someone should tell the government that our basing policy should be founded on what people have found on a commercial piece of computer software, rather than operational and economic needs.
Or is that too much like common sense and not xenophobic enough for this thread?

[HighlandSniper58]

Humingfrog wrote:

Beagle you have obviously not been posted to either Lossie or Kinloss and are talking without that foundation. What you say can therefore be discounted in any reasonable argument.

I have been stationed at Lossie and still fly out of Kinloss and it is one of the best areas of the UK to live. It would have been interesting if you had included in your list the number of :-

1. Murders - there have been 2 in my time here and they are both still being talked about as they are so rare
2. Rapes.
3. Child abuse cases.
4. Assaults.
5. Robberies.

This area is still a law abiding area in which people are interested and look after their neighbours. I used to let my kids (boy and girl) wander to their hearts content, with their mates, in the fields and gorse around our village knowing that they were perfectly safe. Someone would always be keeping an eye on them because they were "village kids" and your neighbours would always be aware of what was going on.

I also find it quite an eyeopener being a member of an ethnic minority (I'm 1/2 English 1/2 Welsh) although being married to a Scot means that I'm only called a white settler in jest (I think).

The reasons that Kinloss and Lossie are being kept open has been well documented and boils down mainly to economics. If you shut the bases they aren't worth anything and you would then have to support the area from the general tax account.

Secondary considerations are that the wx factor here is excellent and the training areas are on the doorstep. Tain range for the FJs and Moray Firth for the Nimrod

The "English" are also becoming very NIMBY and would probably want endless enquiries if a noisy jet was imposed on them.

Let the aircraft be based in the most suitable economic and operational area and accept that that is Scotland and forget how far it is from that awful place called London


HF


Hallelujah - at last someone talking sense. There has been so much crap spouted about the Lossie/Kinloss area, clearly from those who know nothing about it - to quote microsoft autoroute - PMSL.

OK, there are RAF personnel/families who do not like this area, but the thousands who have settled here after getting out, plus the thousands of still serving who have been here donkey's years by choice outweights this.

Beagle - you are clearly sitting there with your anti-jockistani blinkers on - thank goodness there are plenty who think otherwise.

ex- RAF (briefly), current Jock (long-term), happily resident in Moray.

[BEagle]

From a 'profile of Moray' in scotland.org:

The local economy also relies heavily on the presence of two major RAF bases, which comprise 12 percent of Moray’s overall workforce. Moray is a fragile, remote area, which has the lowest average wages in Scotland together with a high dependency on the car with fuel costs comprising an increasing part of the household budget. There are high levels of demand for affordable housing resulting from the low wage economy within Moray.

Which must surely have been a major factor in the JSF basing decision.

I'm glad you enjoy it - and thanks for all the malt!

[Hummingfrog]

Well thank you HighlandSniper58.

I shall print out your post and show it to my wife who as a Scot thinks I sometimes rant as only an Englishman(1/2) can:D

HF

(house prices already going up post announcement - 5 bed house with land may soon reach £250,000:ok: )

[Griz]

I'm glad you enjoy it

We do! Your bourgeoisie attitude betrays a blinkered approach to the realities of life in the UK. The people here manage to get through the day without boring each other to death about money matters (house prices, stock markets etc). They have discovered that quality of life cannot be bought. It is about the people that you interact with on a daily basis. They gladly give freely to each other expecting nothing, but receiving as least as much, in return. It is not unique in Scotland nor in some parts of England.

"An Englishman's home is his castle" There are dozens in Scotland but we don't hide behind the walls.

[HighlandSniper58]

BEagle sees sense at last.............

From a 'profile of Moray' in scotland.org:

The local economy also relies heavily on the presence of two major RAF bases, which comprise 12 percent of Moray’s overall workforce. Moray is a fragile, remote area, which has the lowest average wages in Scotland together with a high dependency on the car with fuel costs comprising an increasing part of the household budget. There are high levels of demand for affordable housing resulting from the low wage economy within Moray.

Which must surely have been a major factor in the JSF basing decision.

I'm glad you enjoy it - and thanks for all the malt!

(house prices already going up post announcement - 5 bed house with land may soon reach £250,000 )

I certainly hope so - only paid £32k for mine in 1986!

We do! Your bourgeoisie attitude betrays a blinkered approach to the realities of life in the UK. The people here manage to get through the day without boring each other to death about money matters (house prices, stock markets etc). They have discovered that quality of life cannot be bought. It is about the people that you interact with on a daily basis. They gladly give freely to each other expecting nothing, but receiving as least as much, in return. It is not unique in Scotland nor in some parts of England.

"An Englishman's home is his castle" There are dozens in Scotland but we don't hide behind the walls.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Now chaps/chapesses, can we put this one to bed now and accept the basing of the MRA.4/JSF decision?



:ok:

[the funky munky]

You all seem to be so blind to the real issue with your scot/english bashing.

At the end of the day regardless of protecting jobs in one area or the other it is about defending the nation and its interests. If this can be achieved by basing JSF at Lossie so be it.

No problem with Nimrod at Kinloss as its an established Nimrod base (so was St. Mawgan but lets not nit pick). Lossie is/was perfect for attempting to stop the red hordes flying over, but that threat is long past.

Now we have to be thinking expeditionary/asymmetric warfare, so if Scotland is the best place to base/train the new naval combat aircraft well do that then. All the FAA guys moving up from Yeovilton have bitched already about moving to East Anglia so why not a LITTLE bit further north. After all retention wont be a problem eh?

[Biggus]

All this jock/scotland bashing is revealing (about those writing if nothing else) and fun to watch, but totally irrelevant. The logic behind the decisions is simple enough:

Kinloss/MRA4 - All the senior neddies wanted to close Kinloss and move the MRA4 to Waddo, putting all the ISTAR assets together, better for logistics, less turbulence on posting within the ISTAR world, etc, etc - lots of good military, social, morale, reasons! However, it was all about costs. Having done a lot of work to prepare Kinloss for the MRA4 (in the days when we were buying 18-21) the projected costs for closing Kinloss and moving the MRA4 south (plus preparing Waddo) was huge. I have heard estimates of 500-750 million!! Therefore it was a non starter!! We work annual budgets (10 yr core), the savings made by closing Kinloss would take far too many years to recoup the up front cost of the move!

JSF/Lossie - I understanding is that JSF is very, very noisey - so they were looking for a coastal airfield to reduce the number of noise complaints. If St Mawgan is out of the picture Lossie is the obvious choice. When you hear a JSF WEBF imagine how the good people of Yeovil will react to it being based in their back yard. Rather than doing the people of Elgin a favour the MoD are exporting their noise polution to Scotland.

P.S - BEagle. To the best of my knowledge there are 2 pubs within staggering distance of Kinloss main gate. That is before you consider Findhorn, Forres, Alves, Elgin, Hopeman, Burghead, Nairn...........

[MarkD]

Why not base them at LHR? :D

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199259

[FCK1]

Who said that the decision to keep the bases open was a stitch up between Jockistani politicians? This seems to overlook the chasm between our local SNP MP Angus Robinson and MOD Minister Adam Ingram who hasn't a nice word to say about him.

If the decision to keep ISK and ISL was a vote getting exercise for New Labour it was a) late b) innefective. We had a mad looking Labour candidate here in Moray during the election saying we needed to vote him in to keep the bases. Instead of that he was beaten into third by the Tories and the SNP romped home with a trebled majority. Go figure!

Labour here in Jockland have been getting a kicking about the RAF job losses, Scottish regimental amalgamations and the general rundown of the military in Scotland. I personally think they are looking over their shoulders at the SNP ahead of the Scottish Assembly elections in 2007.