RAF Scampton closing before it opens?

[Tegan]

ladies & gents,

a recent rumour from a 'rather senior' source has indicated that due to unforseen (& foreseen) financial implications RAF/CRC Scampton may be closing although the CRC is not even operational yet and wouldn't be until early 2006. The rumour gets more interesting when it is implied that we may in fact be going to RAF Leeming instead along with TCW.

Anyone else heard anything more on this?

[SpotterFC]

If you're really where your profile implies you'll have plenty of contacts, including STH, who have either briefed you in one of the many meetings held recently or will be willing to over the phone. You therefore don't need to be asking silly questions like this here.

If you are journo scum - nice try but not good enough.

[Tegan]

no this is something everyone has heard out in theatre which was in fact briefed on mass to our lads during a question & answer session with a senior officer.. as for being from northumberland.. people can live in northumberland without working there.

[tablet_eraser]

CRC Scampton WILL be standing up on schedule. That is a given.

The financial problems concern the fact that de-asbestosing the buildings and reparing the infrastructure is likely to cost more than was initially estimated. As a consequence a new feasibility study has been mounted with a view to comparing the cost of moving the ASSUs to alternative units with irreducible spare capacity (such as Leeming post-F3), and the cost of moving them to Scampton. NO decision has yet been made, and as a consequence units continue to plan for a move to Scampton.

[Wyler]

'Irreducible Spare Capacity'. You should be banned for using such crap meaningless managerspeak on this forum.

This rumour is just that, a rumour. Its about the 20th I've heard this year. As we speak, nothing has changed and it is not good to keep spreading these types of rumours when people are in the process of moving/worrying about schools etc. Much more fun to talk about the mating habits of female FCs.

[tablet_eraser]

The mating habits of female FCs should probably find a separate thread... if at all!

Irreducible spare capacity is pretty plain English in my opinion. It means, "unused (spare) capacity that cannot be disposed of (irreducible)". I believe in being concise. Those who've seen my posts before will know I don't respond well to management speak or PC bolleaux.

The information I have provided above was given to me and 150 others at a briefing last month. No decision has been made, but someone had the sense to look at the costings and propose a feasibility study.

To add my personal slant, I don't really think that setting up RAF Scampton as a "hub" is really 100% necessary. The CRC will stand up because it is already built and ready to go. The rest of the stn needs to be repaired, repainted, and reorganised. Buildings need vast quantities of asbestos to be stripped out. The sewers, as I understand it, are in poor repair. The stn needs to be set up for modern computer ops. English Heritage are (wrongly) poking their noses in and not allowing this country's military to go about its business efficiently. The roads need improving. The electrical and water supplies will probably need to be improved and backed up. SHQ's upper floor is uninhabitable, as are many of the accommodation blocks, which need to be brought up to modern standards. The messing facilities will need to be improved and expanded drastically; at the moment the Combined Mess can't cater for the personnel already stationed at Scampton, hence the imminent spillover to RAF Kirton-in-Lyndesy. The Sgts' Mess is boarded up and will cost God knows how much to run up again. The Officers' Mess alone is likely to cost millions to stand up again.

I would like RAF Scampton to stand up as a MOB, honestly. I'm all for the RAF expanding; I think we need to! But for God's sake, look at this logically. When the F3 fleet is withdrawn, Leeming - an operational station - loses its main role. Why not use its irreducible spare capacity (or "previously operationally capable facilities with no current role") to accommodate the ASSUs? Not all cost-cutting is hostile, some of it can actually save us the expense of spending millions when it isn't necessary.

Which is all desperately unfortunate for families, and I think we can all appreciate what a hard time people are having at the moment. It's a pain, but I'm sure things will settle down when the decision is made. I hope so, at any rate.

[soddim]

"irreducable spare capacity" - used to call it a waste of space in my day.

[Roadster280]

Seems to me that if the station had been on "Care and Maintenance" in the first place, the imminent need to replace every life support system on the camp wouldn't be there. Let the place go, and yes, everything needs renewing.

Time and time again, the MOD makes such an arse of these things. Being an ex-squaddie with the benefit of RAF exposure, I would have to say that the MOD have been short sighted over the years, except in RAFG. Bruggen and Gutersloh now Army barracks. Good. Runways still there if needed. Hangars make great garages.

But in UK, we are apparently about to close Coltishall and St Mawgan, while reopening Scampton. Why?

Even if the radar heads etc are on the East coast, at 300,000,000 metres per second, it doesn't take very long to get a radar picture in Cornwall. Or Akrotiri for that matter.

Why must we take these ideal military establishments, and dispose of them?

Little Rissington Business Park my arse. It's an airfield in the Cotwolds. Like Kemble. Like South Cerney. Like Hullavington. Theyre all national assets, but how many of them are we using properly, while retaining ****holes like Blandford Camp and Bulford.

Grrr. Just glad I don't pay my tax there any more. GWB can squander it, but at least they have the Base Realignment and Closure Commission to look at things half sensibly.

Rant over. Sorry for you all.

[Yeller_Gait]

Tablet,

You are entirely correct in your summing up of the current situation, but surely the question should be

How the f*^% have the RAF managed to balls up the situation (at Scampton) so badly?

There have been so many studies into the future requirements for the RAF, it has cost the MOD £M's, but unfortunately these individual studies have not been coordinated, so one study recommends one thing, and someone else recommends entirely the opposite. It is only just now that these opposing recommendations are coming to light.

Yes the CRC will open on time early next year, but the rest of Scampton looks unlikely to happen, and last I heard, Leeming was looking a favorite.

Don't put any money on it though, because one thing is for sure, the RAF will not be spending any money more than necessary, the cheapest option is, unfortunately, the best, as far as they are concerned.

[Tiger_mate]

Quote; "the RAF will not be spending any money more than necessary, the cheapest option is, unfortunately, the best, as far as they are concerned."

FINNINGLEY:

Millions on new nav school, new MT, even a new church, and what?

Close it.

The RAF will rebuild Scampton and then close it anyway. Leeming will rot, because to maintain, re-role the station is far too logical for this mans air force.

PS

Dont know where that hyperlink came from!!!!!!!!!

[ORAC]

No, no, no, no! You don´t understand how it works. They´ll refurbish the Messes, accommodation and SHQ; lay new drains; renew the roads; put in a new water supply.

Then, they´ll close the place and move everyone to Leeming. It´s tradition... :}

[6Z3]

Rest assured that build and bust is not just an RAF custom(?). Look at Portland. On the other hand please, please don't look at all the new builds at Yeovilton and Culdrose!!

[BEagle]

6Z3 - OK then, 'nasty little habit' rather than custom or tradition!

If it really would cost a fortune to refurbish Sunny Scampton (and what an arse decision it was to put the place on so-called care and maintenance and let it rot so badly), then why not indeed KEEP COLTISHALL OPEN.

It even has an illustrious history in the radar defence of the UK as well as being the last RAF aerodrome left which was operational in the Battle of Britain.

Or is it just that the MoD beancounters are salivating in frenzy at the thought of the money they think they could get for the place if they flogged it off to some Naarfaalk house builder?

[PPRuNe Radar]

It even has an illustrious history in the radar defence of the UK as well as being the last RAF aerdrome left which was operational in the Battle of Britain.

Has Northolt shut then ?? :)

Order of battle:

http://www.battleofbritain.net/northolt.gif

[BEagle]

oops!

You're right, of course, I should have said 'fighter aerodrome'!

Ruislip International is indeed still open; I guess it's too close to London to be of interest to Ryanair though.....:E

[Maple 01]

last 'operational' RAF station then, as London (Northolt) is just a Civil Airport with uniformed staff.

How about re-opening Neat if you want to save CS?

Edited to say; beaten by BEags - oh the shame!

[Logistics Loader]

Gutersloh went the same way...

Spend millions on a new gym, new dispersal area/MT sect at 230Sqn, various other bits and hey presto, close it !!
Well hand it to the Army, similar thing....

Fact now is the locals are complaining about the lack of the RAF in Gutersloh, why ?? because there is now more flying from the airfield than there was when the RAF were there.....!!!

Surprised Waddo is still open with all the new builds over the years....

I hope the bean counters keep up such a good job, because at least my job will be safe, delivering all the new building supplies to places i was posted too !!!

[PPRuNe Radar]

last 'operational' RAF station then, as London (Northolt) is just a Civil Airport with uniformed staff.

You're right, of course, I should have said 'fighter aerodrome'!

Wittering was in 12 Group during the Battle with a couple of Hurricane squadrons ..... same Group as Colt in fact :}

Now whether you class Harriers and Jags as 'fighters' is conjecture I suppose :p

[Wyler]

Getting back to the original argument.

I agree the CRC will stand up and everything else will go to the four winds. What about the School of Fighter Control? Still scheduled to move by 2010. The whole thing is, IMHO, a farce. We have, for the first time in decades, got a more or less purpose built environment at Boulmer which is STILL being finished off and we are closing it to go back into 2nd world war accom. Its crass, sends the wrong message and is causing a great deal of irritation around the houses.
This has been an ill thought out venture from the start. Costs are prohibitve at the moment and the end state will be far removed from the original intention.
Keep Boulmer as the 24 hour CRC, keep the SFC and leave Scampton as the fallback/day working outfit.
The other really annoying aspect is that we are having to pull people back off posts to man both CRCs. This means losing (possibly) some NATO and Joint type posts which, in this day and age, is a step backward. The FC Branch has evolved extremely well over the last 5 years and our Lords and Masters need to be very careful about wrong footing that continued progress.

AMEN!!

Tablet: At least you did not say 'Over-arching'. Plain English??? BAHH!!

[Maple 01]

PPRuNe Radar I stand corrected

[Brit55]

Wyler,

to suggest that nothing has formally changed is incorrect...

All A6 postings, not associated with the CRC are on hold, personnel effected by this have been told by signal, no big secret but certainly a fact.

Scampton is dead and buried, I'm sure it's just a matter of getting the xmas holiday out of the way before they announce it. If you are in a blue suit then it won't be hard for you to get hold of the difference in costings for getting Scampton up & keeping Leeming open.

As for the SFC being purpose built, I visited your school for a brief recently and sat in a porta cabin for the day! Why not Leeming or, if the FC branch really is on the up, get yourselves into Conningsby, soon to be the home of the Air Defenders.

[tablet_eraser]

The portakabins at SFC are now vanishing (thank God!)

Wyler, spot on! As to management speak.... grrr.... take a few buzzwords and string them together, and you're practically an Air Officer!

"Pertaining to the newly-incorporated network-enabled capability doctrine, certain force elements at readiness can be generated, underpinning the overarching architecture of future C4I ops in the real-time digital battlespace, leading to a real capability advantage and directly augmenting standing computuerised elements of the overall force."

Phew! Bring me a pair of thick rank slides and a PSO at once!

[polomint]

Lads and Lasses,

Imagine my surprise when I got a few comments about starting this thread!!!

I AM based in Northumberland, I AM a female fighter controller(and im not even commenting on mating habits) and I AM in theatre...however there is more than one member of the Fighter Controller BRANCH in theatre...and I'm not well paid enough to comment.:p

*rushing now to change my ID* lol

Polo :ok:

PS Hello to all at Boulmer I hear its warmer here at the moment?!?:E

[Safeware]

Polo,Imagine my surprise when I got a few comments about starting this thread!!! But the thread was started by Tegan. :confused: :O

sw

[Maple 01]

Aggggh, you've blown her cover - don't tell them your name Pike....

[Fire 'n' Forget]

however there is more than one member of the Fighter Controller BRANCH in theatre


PMSL.....been into Port Stanley yet ;)

[polomint]

SW,

The reason I commented is that I make very few posts on here, and it amused me that people assumed it was me. Sadly not...lol


And I dont dare go read the female controllers thread....

F n F No Im working far to hard to have any time off :p

Maple...still dashing to change ID :E

Polo:ok:

[6Z3]

Ah, I'm with you. Fighter Controllers must be known as Mints, so it stands to reason that female ones must called Polomints...

[Wyler]

Brit 55.

Why would we want to move to CY?? Its the home of SOME Air Defenders. In this day and age I fail to see the significance of colocating with one element. We also work with the Navy, so maybe we should move into Portsmouth!
I guess its the old chestnut about being colocated with the FJ aircrew to improve Contoller capability etc etc. Some mileage in that BUT, sorry, despite our crappy Branch name, controlling Fighter aircraft is a very small part of our job.
Command and Control in Joint Battlespace will not IMHO, be enhanced solely by having some Fighter Controllers parked next to CY Ops.
Yes I know thats a very simplistic view and there is benefit to be had by closer links, but that is only one small part of a much bigger picture.
Point taken about the A6 posts and I too am expecting several 'announcements' early in the New Year!

Tablet

Nice One! A complete paragraph of random b*****ks. Rank slides in the post!

[JessTheDog]

I don't envy anyone looking forward to a tour in the CRC with no base around it? I thought Scampton was to be parenting Kirkton? What about FQs etc?

As to English Heritage....any semi-competent estates officer should have seen that one coming! The issue of listed buildings is enshrined in statute and has been for some time...there's even a register.

[clicker]

To me it would have been logical to move it all to Colt given thats its near the remote sites of Neatishead and Trimingham and therefore cost effective, although being an outsider I don't know whats planned for both in the near future.

[ChrisMcQuaker]

The amount of money spent on the School at Boulmer there is not a chance in hell it will be moving by 2030 let alone 2010!

[Brit55]

Wyler,

fair point about the extent of your Branches area of expertise. I only really get to talk to your WCs after they have talked us to death over the radio in OTAE! I was under the impression that they were some sort of god like people and that the 'lesser people' at CRCs simply made tea ;)

ChrisMcQuaker,

since when has the MoD looked at previous financial spending before turning 180 and doing something completely different?!?

[Wyler]

Brit 55

God Like?? Never!! Gobby, definitely!

My personal prediction ref Scampton/Boulmer

CRC Scamptom will stand up early 06. CRC Boulmer will remain open TFN. Will possibly move to another location in the distant future depending on other NATO type things.
SFC will remain until such time as there is a pot of gold to fund a rebuild...when?....until the 12th of never..
There will be no back tracking on the closure of Boulmer, more likely a 'delay' and review followed by a delay and review....and so on.

[Wyler]

Sir Topham Hat

Just give in, you know you want me!

[GeeRam]

It's made the BBC.......oooh err:hmm:

RAF bases get listed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4490730.stm)

[Wyler]

Well, thats buggerd that plan then!

Will the CRC personnel have to come to work in WW2 dress?

[DC10RealMan]

I hope and pray that RAF Scampton is saved because it is a very famous Bomber Command station, perhaps the most famous. I had a family member there with 57 Squadron on Lancasters when 617 Squadron were preparing for the Dams operation. I stayed in the Officers Mess just prior to its closure and wandered around the airfield taking photographs (with permission) and the history of it oozed throught the ground, through my feet and into my very soul. I was truly walking in the footsteps of heroes and it was a very humbling experience. I often go up to Lincolnshire to visit the old Bomber Command bases and I always end up at Scampton at dusk and try to imagine what it was like in those dark days. I am a civilian and I know that what I have just written is unfair on serving RAF personnel and their rightful concerns about allowances, accomodation, postings, etc, but I feel that concerns about budgets, money, allowances, should not be allowed to dismember this "hallowed ground". God! how I hate the 21st Century and the tyranny of accountants.

Tony Fallows
Hampshire

[Wyler]

I sympathise with your feelings Tony. Scampton will survive IMHO. It may not be the once thriving and bustling station it once was but there will be life there. Even in the worst case, the history will be preserved and some of the problems being faced now are for that very reason.
I agree about the accountants. I bet Guy Gibson did not have to fight with Civil Servants every day just to get the basics.

[buoy15]

Tablet

Your 2nd post said it all - a concise and detailed report

The place is a wreck and beyond economical and practical recovery for the taxpayer

Sell it off and hit the developers for a windfall tax when they apply to build homes at rip-off prices

What's the problem? Nostalgia?

Do English heritage wish to retain run down buildings full of asbestos to remind our yoof of today (who have no interest) of the good old days just after the war ?

Don't get me wrong - I have done 42 years - 32 years flying - and have been to many 1928 format stns

Having dined, slept, and seen all the history in these messes, it's not difficult to imagine how lovely those times were - in my younger days, I made a point of going for a run around the perri track before dinner - then you saw the history of things that had long disappeared

However, this is 2005 - a very small, enthusiastic bunch of people are involved in this preservation process - they must eventually wake up and smell the coffee

Can you expect to pay for, or run, an estate, that's not even breaking even, let alone giving value for money ?

[OKOC]

I agree entirely with the previous post but IF Scampton is to be saved then IMHO it will only happen because either, or both:

1. English Heritage deem it to remain preserved (and open).

2. D313 is not exactly a moveable item.

Probably (2) is the saving grace.

[Friedlander]

Thought I saw this a while back and didn't want to start a new thread - so, if what I read on other threads is true, when is Scampton CRC going to actually start doing business?

And will it use callsign Abacus like the existing Spare CRC?

DingDong

[gadgetbent]

And why does only one of the CRCs have a c/s??

[Wyler]

CRC Scampton stands up in Jan 06. Official opening on 25th I think. No callsign as far as I know.
Closure will probably be announced about March time.....:E

[BEagle]

With Scampton's historic association with the Dam Busters' raid, perhaps someone could suggest a suitable call-sign......??

[Wyler]

BOUNCER?

My very very favourite would be........n.....

No, sorry, it's gone.

[SirToppamHat]

Operational Assessment (checking that IBM and its partners have delivered the goods) during week ending 20 Jan 06.

Haven't seen the final version of the document, but I guess it will include testing of the Surveillance and Control capabilities in live and SIM, ADLBS integration and Dual-Site Sim capability.

From a weapons perspective, I am sure it will include control of a number of live sorties from about 18 Jan 06. We expect to go operational from 23 Jan 06, with the 'Official Opening' (including saluting and vols-au-vont) a few days later.

For most of the time CRC Scampton will operate in support of Boulmer, but about once a week it is expected to take the lead. For those of you phoning for GCI (I guess that includes Friedlander?) keep using the Boulmer FA who will let you know which of the two units you will be working (like Neat used to do for Buchan).

I believe HQ 3 Gp are putting out a letter/signal to all interested parties timed to be on the desks immediately after the Xmas break.

As for callsigns, I am sure that GB knows full well that the reason for ABACUS was because the CRC and T-CRC are both at Boulmer, even though they are physically separated - HQ 3 Gp accepted the best way to avoid confusion was to have a separate callsign, and I guess 'the CRC in the room formerly known as the SFC Briefing Room at Boulmer' was a bit too much of a mouthful! Unless we are told otherwise, the callsign for CRC Scampton will be ...... 'Scampton', though personally I would quite like it to be 'BlackDog'!

Squawks will be NOTAM'd at the beginning of Jan and included in the following AIRAC cycle.

SMA = 'CRC SCAMPTON'

STH

Edited to add:

Oh and IIRC, for those of you calling Boulmer CRC Ops Room from RAFTN dialling 9210408XXX you should just need to change the 40 to a 50, so that 9210508XXX should get you to the same positions at Scampton CRC Ops Room.

[SpotterFC]

STH

It's volS-au-vEnt you peasant!

Spotter

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

Good luck to everyone starting at CRC Scampton - hope the work-up goes well and you enjoy yourselves. Pity about the domestic accommodation, support facilities, collocation with the A6 community.......

[SirToppamHat]

Ah Spotter Old Chap - having trouble with ISS are we?;)


Correction made. Apols.


Happy Christmas!

STH

[BigginAgain]

Sorry to hi-jack this thread, but a friend of mine (bit of a spotter, and always banging on about the future of the RAF) drove past Scampton the other day and says the Red Arrows sign has gone. According to him, that proves they are moving to Leeming, as poo poo'd elsewhere on this site.

It's been a while, but ISTR there was a sign saying 'RAF Scampton - Home of the Red Arrows' or some such. He may have just missed it, or perhaps it's being renovated ready for the new season/sponsor etc. On the other hand, perhaps there is something in it -and this is a Rumour Network, right? So what's the deal? Anyone out there know? Has a similar sign appeared at Leeming or Coningsby or Waddo or Cranwell or St Mawgan?

BA

[SirToppamHat]

I know nothing about the RAFAT sign, but note that the

Home of Number 1 Air Control Centre

sign has disappeared from the Main entrance of the place formerly known as RAF Kirton in Lindsey which is now a satellite of RAF Scampton and not to be called RAF Kirton in Lindsey under any circumstances (unless it's for mail deliveries, traffic directions or any other good reason).

I naturally assumed it had been robbed by Air Traffic at Leuchars (they stole stuff from Boulmer ISTR)!

STH

[vmv2]

Both signs removed 'cos new staish feels they send the wrong message.

[ZH875]

Both signs removed 'cos new staish feels they send the wrong message. With both signs being shiney and looking new and the camp looking semi-derelict, I tend to agree with him. ;)

[SirToppamHat]

VMV2

You sure it wasn't Leuchars ATC? ;)

I half expected to find a picture of it on the piano keys of Runway 09!

STH

[vmv2]

STH

RAFAT sign was removed as one of new staish's first actions on arrival. 1 ACC sign was removed from main entrance to NOT RAF Kirton in Lindsey just before Christmas. No idea what happened to them but I believe Reds would like theirs back!

[Friedlander]

I would have thought he'd have more important things to worry about .... :(

What was the point of removing the sign? I would have thought being their Station Commander something to be proud of.

DingDong!

[tablet_eraser]

Does anyone else find it ironic that the Stn Cdr of the derelict, decrepit, (possibly) doomed RAF Scampton, whose absurd costs are due in no small part to English Heritage, wants to eradicate the name of an old Fighter Command base? I believe Bader used to fly out of Kirton-in-Lyndsey.

If English Heritage take the same interest in the Stn Cdr's edict as they do in more serious military affairs, I'm sure they'll block it.

Oh hell, now I don't want them to!

:confused:

t_e

[Brit55]

Here here Tablet,

I have to say, the story of the CO at Scampton ordering the removal of the 1ACC and RAFAT signs is outrageous!

I've got a mate on 1ACC, I won't call him a friend as he is a Fighter Controller ;), who has told me that the guys are really p*ssed off up at RAF Kirton in Lindsey.

Let Scampton's CO have his little power trip, I'm sure Kirton will still be open long after Scampton has gone!

STH,

wouldn't the fact that RAF Kirton in Lindsey is a unit in it's own right, of historical value and more importantly, manned by more personnel than Scampton not be a good enough reason to call it RAF Kirton in Lindsey??? :hmm:

[tablet_eraser]

Ha ha ha... you're spot on!!! In terms of numbers (of personnel and buildings that aren't falling down or full of asbestos) surely Scampton should be a satellite of Kirton?

Then, when 1ACC vacates KIL's SHQ the CO could move in and no-one would have to worry about refurbishing Scampton SHQ's top floor!

Then let English Heritage have Scampton, since it's so important to them, and watch with despair as it continues to rot under their stewardship.

Although, of course, the old Officers' Mess lawns would still be mown. The paint is peeling, the windows are boarded up, there is an unsightly chain-link fence all the way around it... but at least English Heritage are spending tax-payers' money to keep the lawns tidy.

[SirToppamHat]

Brit55

... the place formerly known as RAF Kirton in Lindsey which is now a satellite of RAF Scampton and not to be called RAF Kirton in Lindsey under any circumstances ...

Not my idea, I can assure you - perhaps you missed the underlying sarcasm, sorry!

T_E

manned by more personnel than Scampton

Not sure it is - certainly won't be by 16 Jan 06.

STH

[BEagle]

Listen, you ground-pounding scope-dope Ps-of-S. Scampton is an historic RAF bomber base to which many hundreds of aircrew failed to return during the dark days of WW2. Later it became a Canberra base; later still it became a cornerstone of our Cold War V-bomber force for almost a quarter of a century.

Whereas Kirton-in-Lindsey was a small fighter aerodrome whose operational usefulness ended in April 1943. A number of minor units used it until it was put on care and maintenance in 1957. It had a brief 5 year reactivation for gliding and technical training in 1960, before the dung eaters took it over in 1965.

The fact that the gypsy existence of the RAF's aerobatic team now sees it at Scampton is frankly of minor interest. The 'Home of the Red Arrows' was, and always will be, Kemble.

Yes, it's a huge pity that bone-headed bean-counting idiots have allowed a once proud RAF Scampton to decay so badly. But thank heavens that English Heritage have a finer sense of military history than the MoD. But it's an even bigger shame that either historic site should now be occupied by a bunch of mere radar operators, rather than by real flying squadrons.

[ZH875]

Nicely put BEagle. Nicely put.

[RileyDove]

I think it's worth pointing out that asbestos and decrepid old buildings might be an issue but this is nothing new. Getting rid of
asbestos is a known practice and regularily carried outin industry.
Just because Scampton isn't in pristine nick - it shouldn't be dismissed as something that is unworkable. If we applied the rule that anything that involved English Heritage was to be avoided it would put the future of Cranwell's fine historic buildings in a poor light for the future.

[BigginAgain]

Beagle

I think you ought to go and have a lie-down old chap. The way things are going, the only buildings at Scampton that will not be falling down in ten years (even if they are unoccupied by then) will be those which are occupied by the 'ground-pounding scope-dope Ps-of-S' (I expected better of you) - including the one-time Airmens' Mess and Cinema/Dambusters Raid Briefing Room.

I am not sure what it is you think the people at English Heritage have done to preserve Scampton, but I am pretty sure sticking a load of 'Listed' labels on things is not enough on its own to deserve a round-of-applause. One of the main reasons the whole regen of Scampton has been put at risk (abandoned?) is because of the additional costs of doing things the EH way (agreed by our lords and masters), on top of a pretty uncared-for and unmaintained unit, and EH's outright refusal to allow some things to happen at all. These additional costs have been paid for by you and I out of the Defence Budget, probably at the expense of far more deserving causes.

It upsets me to see our Service shrinking in the way it has done and will continue to do, and I can never resist having a look at what is left of some of our old units, but simply fencing things off and praying that one day the magic infrastructure fairies will come back and restore things to their former glory does not achieve anything.

As far as signs are concerned, I don't think you ought to let a bit of banter raise your blood pressure so much! ;)

Now I'll have to go and have a lie-down.

BA

[tablet_eraser]

BEags,

Tut tut, old boy - what a nasty thing to say!

I have not denied Scampton's illustrious history. Who could attack the historical importance of such a vital base? Respecting history should not be the same as clinging to the past.

The MOD has a responsibility to maintain the external appearance of Scampton in accordance with the listed status it has been given by English Heritage. However, since the station has not been occupied for a long time, a lot of it has been allowed to decay because the MOD's spending priorities lie elsewhere. Now that the defence budget is slowly tightening, it is unlikely that paying to restore a military site's external apperance while having to conduct extensive renovation inside the buildings is a good investment, when other Stns are soon to become somewhat emptier. Scampton is not in a good state of repair.

Kirton, by contrast, is an open, maintained and ready unit with an existing infrastructure and buildings that are up to spec.

In these days of a shrinking defence budget, how can we justify spending millions to maintain the cosmetic appearance of a Stn, however historic, when other stations already exist with the infrastructure to support military tasks?

CRC Scampton is an excellent facility, and it's a terrible shame that it may yet end up as a lone unit at RAF Scampton. If EH are so keen to see the rest of the site restored, they should have been lobbying the MOD for years to maintain it instead of allowing it to decay. They didn't care one jot until the RAF announced the work-up. "English Heritage have a finer sense of military history than the MoD" - what utter tosh. If that's the case, why wasn't a complaint raised about the state of the station? Bear in mind, the MOD cares for Halton House, College Hall, Sandhurst, Dartmouth, Bentley Priory, Amport House and HMS DRYAD. EH should have complained publicly about the state of an historic site.

I'm very sorry, BEags, but if you can't read the irony in my earlier posts, if you're so blinkered in your attitude that you'll resort to claiming I know nothing because I'm a "ground pounding scope dope", and if you think that the RAF should prioritise the past over the future, you need to check your logic. We all take pride in our traditions and our history, but we simply cannot afford to throw money at every piece of history we have because we have a job to do. If you're going to make that claim about Scampton, what about Biggin Hill, Tangmere, Coltishall, and all the other former stations? Where does the money come from?

As for us "mere radar operators", why don't you tell us all how we'd have won the Battle of Britain without Fighter Controllers concentrating our force where it counted, and without the advance warning we provided for Fighter AND Bomber Commands? Your opinion is about as outdated and unhealthy as Scampton's tons of asbestos.

If you'd rather take this up, "Ps-of-S" to "Ps-of-S", feel free to PM me.

[Edited to make factual corrections re EH]

[Wyler]

Beagle

Speaking as a simple 'radar operator' I am aghast at your ignorance, arrogance and attitude. I have the greatest respect for those who fly, no matter what type or task. I also have the greatest respect for everyone else in uniform who does his/her job. Everyone has their part to play. Your comments say far more about you than it does the state of Scampton or anywhere else for that matter.
Try fast forwarding to the 21st century, you might actually like it OLD BOY.

ZH875

Almost forgot about you. Sorry.

Kn*b.

:ok:

[The Swinging Monkey]

tablet-rubber,

I am afraid your comments are way off line and most are ill-informed..........................................

'Does anyone else find it ironic that the Stn Cdr of the derelict, decrepit, (possibly) doomed RAF Scampton.....'

How dare you say that Scampton is decrepid, derelict and doomed?

Do you live here? have you been on the camp recently? clearly you have NOT! and you are wrong on all three counts.

Yes it needs some serious work doing to bring it up to todays modern standards, but what RAF base doesn't? Take a look at Waddo Ops block! - there aint enough power to run all the kit!

I agree with BEagle. Your place is in a little bunker, underground somewhere, well away from the real Air Force. You may not wish or want to go to Scampton, but I can assure you that the majority of us would much rarther you didn't come here, and left a truly historic AIR base to AIR Operations, even if its just the Arrows.

Kind regards
TSM

[JessTheDog]

I don't wish to get in the way of swinging handbags, but I have a small technical point.

English Heritage are not responsible for preserving listed buildings or monuments. The owners are. What EH do is to "list" the buildings to prevent the owners knocking them down for houses or whatever. The onus is on the owner ie. MoD.

I have always found it difficult to imagine how Scampton could be both preserved (as it should be) and run as an operational stn. The proposal to shut Boulmer was always barking mad, perhaps driven more by the desire of the airborne component of the FC branch to settle in Lincolnshire full-time .;)

[tablet_eraser]

TSM,

Because most of the buildings have been abandoned to disrepair (derelict, a word first used by ZH875), many of them are outdated, unhealthy and full of asbestos (decrepit) and because we all know that the Stn's future is under review with other, less-expensive options being investigated (POSSIBLY doomed). I'm very sorry if this assessment, which was intended to point out an irony, has caused you such offence. I don't like the idea of the RAF shrinking any more than other PPRuNers, I just wonder whether Scampton is the right way ahead.

And yes, I have been there recently and I've seen it. Some of it is good, most of it needs an awful lot of work. The new CRC looks fantastic, and makes due reference to the history of the building; the married quarters I visited are modern and pleasant; the Officers' Mess, if it was to be restored, would be magnificent; the combined mess contains some excellent artwork and I'm sure it will have a good mess culture for as long as it remains. If the Service can afford to renovate the Stn, very well; but I don't think our priorities should lie in restoring a base when other bases, with existing infrastructure, are likely to need a role in the future.

Whatever happens, I agree that Scampton is important. If the MOD has no future use for it, I hope that whatever use it is put to maintains its dignity. We managed it with Farnborough, after all.

That's my serious, considered opinion. I'm all for constructive debate; some of my posts were a little abrasive, but I think we all post those every so often. I happen to think that BEags's post was atrocious, though, and couldn't let it go unanswered. He may have a problem with my posts, but that does not confer upon him the right to haughtily condemn all of my colleagues as "mere radar operators". I speak for myself, not for my colleagues.

Finally, FCs DO have a major part to play in air operations. If you're so keen to avoid anything other than FLYING units being based at Scampton, it's going to be a lonely, dysfunctional place. Especially considering the fact that the work-up was planned to house ASSUs. Not flying Sqns. What happened to the concept of teamwork?

JTD,

I stand corrected, and will amend previous posts to make that correction.

[SirToppamHat]

BA, TSM and JTD all have reasonable points to make about EH. I think they have a difficult balance to try and maintain between achieving their own aims (preservation) whilst encouraging regeneration and investment for projects. Faced with the choice, the average private investor is likely to fight EH or walk away unless the suggestion is cost neutral or actually adds value.

Because they only seem to monitor and advise on listed buildings, it is often quite easy for owners to simply let the buildings fall derelict rather than fork out for expensive restorations that don't actually deliver something that is usable.

For example, there are lots of former RAF officers' messes around the UK that have been renovated and turned into conference centres, hotels etc (Duxford and Hemswell for example) whereas others are simply left to rot until they have to be demolished (and land sold-off for housing developments!) as in the case of Horsham St Faiths. What I don't understand is how some organisations achieve their aims without bending-over backwards to comply with EH, whereas the RAF (and I guess the other Services as well) seems to be absolutely hamstrung by them. In the case of Scampton, though, I believe it is not just the costs of complying with EH that were/are the issue, but in some areas an outright embargo on certain aspects of the project. This, on top of the fact that some parts of the Station are not in particularly good nick (though I think some of the phrases here are a little over-stated).

Anyway, enough of my Bolleaux Rambling! A couple of recent piccies for you:

1. The Airmens' Mess/Cinema/Briefing Room Entrance (now the entrance to the CRC) - anyone out there remember it?

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/52f48e50.jpg

2. The sign from outside the Dambusters Briefing Room (now outside the CRC Ops Room) - sobering. This now has a small model of an appropriately configured Lancaster above the text but beneath the 617 Sqn crest.


http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/46aa6812.jpg

STH

[ZH875]

the married quarters I visited are modern and pleasantDidn't visit mine down N*******erland Ave then...I would not think of describing it as modern or pleasant, more like adequate and non-weatherproof. But at least it does have cheap double glazing.

[Archimedes]

Sorry to go slightly off-topic and in such spotterish fashion - but is there any reason that the board in the photo fails to mention that two Conspicuous Gallantry Medals (the NCO equivalent of the DSO, IIRC) were awarded for the Dams raid?

[SirToppamHat]

Archimedes

When the CRC Project Team arrived at Scampton, they were shown the 'Museum'. In there was a slightly battered version of the board shown here. I guess this would have been erected at the end of or shortly after the War (though I honestly don't know).

About a year later I was also shown the Museum and suggested the board should be put back where it had come from. However, I was informed that a copy had already been made for that very purpose, it being desired to keep the original in the Museum.

As far as I know, the wording is exactly the same as the original, and I have no idea why the 2 CGMs weren't included. Given the building was originally the Airmens' Mess, it makes even less sense for these awards to be omitted. I will try to remember to ask when I get back on Monday. Pse PM me if I forget.

STH

[Brit55]

I have to say that some of the aircrew on this thread are completely out of line and I'm ashamed to associate myself with them.

The RAF may be here to project air power however, don't forget about the infrastructure that works around you, as without it you would NEVER get to fly.

I does not matter what we do, it's all about how well we do it and as Brits, we do most things better than the others so come on, ease off on the ego trips and remember those who work bloody hard to get you flying (especially if you fly tonkas!!).

Anyway!!! If there is a use for Scampton then lets get it up to speed. I was there for a visit to RAFAT a while back and I have to say, it is in a shocking state and anyone who says otherwise must be walking around with their eyes wide shut! Guy Gibson's office has been left to rot, most upsetting.

The CRC is there, looks good and will provide a service to many aircrew so lets embrace it rather than shun it. The building that is now the CRC is being well looked after with a sense of pride being held by those who work there. They are more than aware of the historical significance of the ops room and I'm sure they'll treat it with respect.

[RileyDove]

RAF project airpower? - Flying club with weapons maybe?

[Brit55]

Fair one...

I was just making a point!:ok:

[tablet_eraser]

Nicely put, Brit55. Nicely put.

[SpotterFC]

Brit55

I think you'll find the 2 aircrew who are most vociferous in their wish to see Scampton revitalised, regardless of cost, are actually EX-aircrew who can now successfully fill the role of 'armchair general' - berating all and sundry about the lack of respect for tradition etc etc whilst singularly disregarding the shrinking defence budget. Pragmatism is what is required here - not dogmatism, otherwise we'll end up with a host of refurbished Scamptons and one Eurofighter - the rest of the latter having been sold to the Saudi's to pay for the former. It will be interesting to see the effect of EH's listings on the ability of the MoD to do works on other places if the effect at Scampton is anything to go by. How can you build SLAM blocks if you can't demolish buildings for fear of changing the 'look and feel' of a site - even if the buildings you are demolishing aren't themselves listed?

Having said that I wholeheartedly agree that we should remember those that fought and died for the freedoms we enjoy. However, I don't think that Guy Gibson would give a monkey's t*ss about the state of his admin office - the only 'office' he would care about is the one that he flew. Several years ago I was tasked to act as an usher at a gathering of the BoB Aircrew Association at Bentley Priory (anybody else notice that that was conspicuously left off the EH List?). None of the distinguished guests there seemed to bemoan the loss of all of the old BoB aerodromes in Kent (though they could probably tell a good few tales about their time there), but the looks on their faces and the tears that sprang to their eyes when the BBMF fighters flew over - it was the aircraft that meant something to them. Hence I think that the bomber and fighter crews of WWII are best commemorated by the BBMF, the OFMC, the Duxford flying collection and the CAF etc in the US. As for remembering all of the crews of the V-force, hopefully a fitting reminder will be returning to the skies shortly.

On the matter of being a 'Ground-Pounding POS' I had the great privilege of spending an afternoon in the RAF Club recently, in the company of a great many ex-aircrew who transferred to FC for all sorts of reasons, some of whom formed the core of the Branch after WWII. Strangely none felt the need to address me in the manner above, especially those who had seen action, and saw all who contributed to the fight as part of a big team, rather than a childish them and us situation. One of them is an ex-president of our Association - an abbreviated CV can be found here. (http://www.raffca.co.uk/asp/basepage.asp?pagename=pastpres)

Anyway, 2 of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse are here - where's ABIW - he's normally up for a spot of FC bashing...

[BEagle]

When I was based at Scampton in 1977-80, we had an example of Guy Gibson's 'office' parked by the main gate, together with a selection of dummy weapons. A complete Lancaster! Fortunately it's still alive and well and is now based at East Kirkby.

By rights there should now be Vulcan parked where the Lancaster was back then.

[RileyDove]

Spotter - Why do we need to commemorate the V- bombers at all? The Valiant practiced over the Pacific for armageddon . The Vulcan dropped bombs on the Falkland Islands and the Victor tanked for the Gulf War and Falklands.
Various other types in the 1950's and 60's saw far more service and the Hunter for example was at the heart of the action in many Middle East hot spots . Similarily the Canberra was bombing the Communist rebels in the jungle of Malaya or snooping deep over Yapuskin Yar at the Soviet test sites.
There is some romantic notion that the V- bombers were a massive feature of the Cold War - the reality is that besides being deeply impressive they also saw little action because of the nature of what they were.
As for Scampton - well indeed it is fairly decrepid and has been for a while. However any organisation that is without history is also without soul.
The runway at Scampton is as effective as it was 53 years ago. The infrastructure is exactly that - designed to support the use of the runway.
The notion that money spent on Scampton is stopping us having one more
Eurofighter is lunacy. The Mod is and always has been rich in assets . There are bases within the RAF that should have been closed years ago . Flying stations that have hardly any runway or none at all that can play little use in the defence of the U.K. Scampton has a good road structure - it is well located within a catchment of other stations and deserves to have money invested in it. The fact that buildings are run down and need money spending
on them is a reflection on what wasn't spent on them in the past rather than now. The probems of asbestos isn't something new - industry just gets on with it's removal and there is no reason why that should stop investment at Scampton.

[BEagle]

The runway at Scampton is considerably improved over the way it was 53 years ago - it was extended and upgraded to take V-bombers several years after 1953!

The V-force kept the peace at a critical time in our history. Arguably for far longer than WW2. At its peak in 1962-63 it had 22 squadrons; Scampton was a key V-force station and deserves to be remembered as such.

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Scampton is expanding. We have moved to a 3 mess system, OK, they may be at different sights at the moment, but that is common sense until the build up is complete.

CRC is not the only operational unit here. Others have moved here over the past 18 months and are supporting deployed locations worldwide. Scampton is an operational station, all be it with the only flying unit being RAFAT. We just get on and do our job and dispare at the moaning going on in this forum and elsewhere!

As for signs, trivial matter, but they have been removed to make way for new Scampton "corporate" signs, that will have the names/crests of all units operating out of Scampton/KiL including 1 ACC, RAFAT, CRC etc. So a very sensible move by Harry Staish, not as others have said elsewhere.

As for the state of the hangers, 1 hanger is in very good condition, and for those interested, a Hunter has just been moved into 2 hanger, which is also in fair condition.

The runway is in need of repair, and needs work. So the plan is for RAFAT to remain in Cypress a little longer this year, then go "on tour" to allow the work to be done. They will then RETURN here when work is complete. So yet again, no story, no great issue.

Lincoln life is a load better than rural southern England where we moved from. Stop moaning, come to Lincoln. You will enjoy it!
:cool: :D :D

[SpotterFC]

Stop moaning, come to Lincoln. You will enjoy it!
:cool: :D :D

Is this an order?

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Spotter,
Like any location it is what you make of it.
When we heard we were posted to Lincolnshire from the south of England we thought "Oh no, East of the A1, There be Dragons!"
But 18 months down the line, best move we have made. Lincoln has almost anything you want from ancient culture, excellent restaraunts to down right drunken debauchery. :ok: :ok: Ask any one who has been to Ritzy's or Cloud9 ;) ;)

There are issues here, almost all of the folk on this unit live out, but living in town has major advantages (see above.) The only down side is the mess is now a 20 mile car trip up the A15 from home, some what limiting chances for mess life. Once the main mess here is back up and running, happy hour here we come! :ok: :ok:

[allan907]

Having a quick trip to the UK at the moment and as I am in close proximity to Lincoln at the moment I decided to have a look at my old stamping ground at Scampton (ex 1 GSU in the Vulcan era). No 4 shed looked a bit battered and the boarded up windows in the Officers' Mess didn't look good but most of the place was very much as I remembered it. The only problem I saw was that as the quarters have been sold off and the base wired off the place seemed to have lost its soul.

[John Blakeley]

MOD Press Release today:

Leeming home to new RAF communications hub
Published Tuesday 17th January 2006


RAF Leeming badgeThe teams that provide communications for the RAF when they deploy on operations will move to RAF Leeming under new plans announced by Adam Ingram, Minister for the Armed Forces, on 17 January 2006.

The move will see the RAF's Air Combat Service Support Units (ACSSUs) communications units, currently located in a range of bases across the UK, relocating to form a centre of excellence for RAF communications at RAF Leeming in North Yorkshire. Subject to Trades Union consultation more than 120 RAF Communications staff will move to RAF Leeming in 2006 with more joining them in 2007.

It was originally planned that RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire would become home to the communications hub. However, following substantial increases in estimated costs at Scampton, a review concluded that RAF Leeming will be a significantly more cost-effective option.

Adam Ingram, said:

"This is great news for RAF Leeming, which will continue to have an exciting future once the current Tornado F3 force leaves in 2008. This is the right decision for Defence, the RAF and for taxpayers. These deployable communications assets are excellent examples of the flexible, expeditionary capability that our Armed Forces need to meet modern defence challenges.

"I realise this is disappointing news for RAF Scampton and for Lincolnshire but I have to take the right decisions for defence as a whole and the taxpayer."

Group Captain Ian Morrison, RAF Leeming Station Commander, added:

"We are delighted by this news. The disbandment of XI(Fighter) Squadron in October last year, and the announcement that RAF Leeming was not an option for the Joint Combat Aircraft led to a huge amount of speculation about the future of the Station.

"However, we have always reported that further options were still being considered, and this news is good for both Defence and the Royal Air Force, who will maintain a significant presence in North Yorkshire. RAF Leeming does have a long-term future after the disbandment of our remaining Tornado Fighter Squadron in 2008, and we look forward to welcoming our new colleagues in April."

The MoD keeps the cost of all projects under review to ensure best value for money. The decision to review plans to relocate the ACSSUs to RAF Scampton was announced in December 2005 following considerable estimated cost increases. RAF Leeming offers best value for money by a margin of £55M over RAF Scampton.

The decision is subject to Trades Union consultation. It is expected that over the course of the next two years communications personnel from RAF Sealand, RAF Brize Norton and RAF High Wycombe will relocate to RAF Leeming.

[AonP]

The Hansard statement hints at a further review of ASACS sites:

"Increased site preparation cost estimates at RAF Scampton have caused us to review whether this location remained the best value for money option for a communications hub. This work has now concluded and, subject to Trades Unions consultation, I have decided that the RAF communications hub will be formed at RAF Leeming (North Yorkshire) instead of RAF Scampton as this will be significantly more cost effective.
This means that communications personnel would move from RAF Sealand to RAF Leeming by April 2006. Communications personnel from RAF Brize Norton and RAF High Wycombe would move to RAF Leeming in 2007. The future location of ASACS units, currently at RAF Scampton, RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey and RAF Boulmer, will be the subject of further work."

Does anyone have any clue what will be included - a fair chance of another U-turn I think!

[Tim McLelland]

I think RileyDove is rather missing the point when it comes to remembering the V-Force!
Obviously, if the V-Force had actually been used, it could have been regarded as being an heroic failure. The very fact that it never was used, ephasises that it was a huge success, and worth every penny.
The Vulcan's role in the Falklands and the Victor's role as a tanker (plus the recce role for which all three V-Bombers were used) were of course merely additional tasks which they performed admirably.

[Navaleye]

The very fact that Guy Gibson's dog is buried there is reason enough to keep it open.

[4Foxtrot]

I guess house prices in Northallerton will be going up then as the noisy planes at RAF Leeming are replaced by those orderly, well-behaved TCW chaps. :hmm:

[SirToppamHat]

I undertook to respond to Archimedes' Q regarding the failure of the Dambusters' Board to mention the 2 Conspicuous Gallantry Medals that were awarded for the Dams Raid. I am sorry to say that I don't have a definite answer. When I first started digging, I wondered whether it was the actual targets that were the issue. Neither of these raids were successful, and there is no mention of them on the Board. The CGMs were awarded as follows:

FS K W Brown (Sorpe Dam)
FS W C Townsend (Ennepe Dam)

However, the totals for the DSOs (5), DFCs (14) and DFMs (12) obviously include the 6 DFMs and 1 DFC awarded to crews who participated in the Sorpe and Ennepe Raids. I am, therefore, at a loss as to why they weren't included. Could it be that at the time of the original Board's production, it was felt that they were lesser awards not worthy of inclusion?

STH

[Lyneham Lad]

On the ModOracle site today:-
http://www.modoracle.com/?page=http://www.modoracle.com/news/detail.h2f?id=10096&category=all&refresh=07F3424F-479D-49C4-8FB1FB937746B87E
Given all the discussions in the previous posts and also the recent official announcements in the House etc about the location, is the news on ModOracle today merely referring to an interim solution or is there a case of 'left hand / right hand' ?

[SirToppamHat]

The official opening took place on 25 Jan 06, following declaration of an initial operating capability on 23 Jan. Those who know me will be aware that I have a healthy distrust of official statements, and I would normally be extremely suspicious of this sort of line:
"Despite being an interim programme and, therefore, not required to deliver any increase in capability, it has proven to be a quantum leap forward in user-friendliness, clear and unambiguous presentation of information and graphics and a working environment that previously fighter controllers and aerosystems operators could only dream of."

However, in this case, Air Marshal White's comments were spot on. In fact, a number of improvements and additional capabilities have been delivered simply because it was more cost-effective than not to do so.

As for the rest of Scampton, it is a shame that we will not be joined by the rest of the A6 Hub, and that the Station seems to have such a limited life. However, personally I am not convinced about the timeline for NATO ACCS, or even whether we will see it at all.

STH

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

STH
But they told me NATO ACCS was just around the corner when I was a student FC in 1989! How could you be so cynical?

[SirToppamHat]

To paraphrase a friend regarding NATO ACCS ...

The Emperor has no clothes!!!!!!!!!!

STH

[Archimedes]

STH, thanks for the research. AIUI, the CGM was regarded very highly; it was awarded only rarely. I wonder if the rarity meant that whoever did the board was unaware that these gallantry medals had been awarded?

In any event, it seems something of a shame that the heroism of the two recipients isn't commemorated on the board.