Flyer Professional Flight Training Show (PFTS) 19th Nov

[BlueRobin]

Hello there, is anyone going to this?

http://www.flyer.co.uk/exhibitions/

I went a couple of years back. Now I reckon with the market looking better than 2002 and more money in my pocket, it's now or never. I want to see if I can make a go of things commercially, so for a day out to Heathrow to get the most up-to-date gen I reckon the trip is worth it.

Anyone else going?

Still time to get a ticket, or get one on the door. Only £2 more after all.

[TJF97]

I'm going purely out of curiosity, also to answer the following questions;

1) Am I too old to change career? (29)

2) I'm realistic enough to realise I'm going to have to take a pay cut from my present job but how long before I get back to that sort of pay level?

3) Finally my current pension is excellent, I'm on schedule to retire at 51, I just wanted to know what sort of pensions are offered by the airlines?

I'll see you there, I'll be the one in the suit:D

TJF97

[BlueRobin]

We are of the same age but no way am I on-track at this stage to know I can retire at 51!

Blinkin' ''eck :mad: ;)

[powdermonkey]

TJF97

29!!! Too old??? I don't think so mate, you get your finger out and you could be all done in less than 3 years! I'm 36 nearly 37 and reckon still have a year to go before I finish all my training, I 'll be looking for a job at the age of 38+, you will be only 32, a good age I reckon....then again I am not in the pilot recruitment business, but I imagine age in your case is NOT a problem.
Good luck, at the very least trying for it is about the most interesting, all consuming thing I have ever done....well, back to the books for the weekend:yuk:

[Leezyjet]

"Still time to get a ticket, or get one on the door. Only £2 more after all."

I've been to the last 2 and not paid at either of them. Although I did get there in the afternoon so missed the morning talks, but no big deal as all the stalls were still there dishing out free stuff. I just wandered in as there is usually no one on the door later on, and if there is just nod and smile and walk right on by.

Oh and it's cheaper to park in the visitors centre car park next door and much easier to get a space too, or park on the road that runs between the Park Inn and the Texaco garage and it's free too !!.

(giving away all my tips here - but the money saved will pay for the taxi time to the end of the runway in a SEP !!!)

:E

[TJF97]

I probably sound like a right geek saying I'm on track to retire at 51, couldn't be further from the truth. I picked a career where they chuck me out after 30 years haggered and burnt out!!!

It would be nice to hear from the airlines about my age concerns, the FTO are bound to say I'm not because they want my money!!

Cheese

TJF97

[scroggs]

TJF97, pensions are very variable throughout the industry (and a touchy subject in some companies). Britannia is, I think, the only outfit to still offer a final-salary scheme, though with current accounting rules it must be for the chop soon. Some airlines offer no pension at all. Most contribute somewhere between 5% and 15% of basic salary (if you contribute a certain minimum amount) to a defined-contribution scheme - which can usually be one of your own choosing if you don't like the company scheme.

What you get out of it will depend on pension law at the time you retire, but if your maximum pot is to be the £1.7m currently proposed by the government, your pension wil be limited to about £70k per annum if you retire at 60 - and somewhat less if you retire at 51!

Scroggs

[shytot]

Hi Bluerobin,
Yep I am going, Will be there @ 9.00 A.M. knocking on the door asking if I am too old @ 41 !!!.... and after reading pprune not really giving a **** what the answer is? I want to do it...I will do it just a case of who to do it with?

See you there


Shytot

[splatt]

See you all there. Add 14 years to the kid in the yellow jumper captaining that 737-200 in my avatar photo and you might be able to identify me :) I'm 25 now but like most of us that aren't fresh from school I'm also out and about looking at my dream career change.

[aswind]

YEP, I'm going.... see you all there :ok:

cheers

[edymonster]

i have already bought my tickets and will def be there nice and early. Should be intresting.

Ed

[TJF97]

How comes I seemed to be the only person in a suit?? If I'd known the dress of the day was jeans, t-shirt and a rucksack I would have obliged :p

[shytot]

TJF97

You only need a suit when you are asking for somthing,
Jeans are ok when you are paying them?

Shytot;)

[BlueRobin]

What happened in the medical seminar? Could any kindly soul relay their notes here please?

1330 is lunchtime and I was "next door" :p

[Deano777]

I was in a suite as well TJF97, it's always best to wear your best as you just never know who you will bump in to ;)

[splatt]

As requested some notes from the medical seminar - i don't have any medical hiccups so personally wasn't taking notes at this one but here is a little of what I remember from memory.

It was explained what the class 1 medical examination entails, what I remember from this part is that its possible to do the class 1 eye test and pay only for that if you fail it.

There was some advice about not having a full stomach when you arrive - so no big breakfasts - as it can interfere with some of the measurements. Also adviced to collect urine sample 'mid-stream' as begin and end stream has additional waste products or proteins respectively which again can interfere with their tests. Oh it was also recommended that 'you and your genitals' have a relaxing day prior to the medical - sex and workouts apparently affect the urine sample.

Questions then began with most people being concerned about eye sight. As I was not taking notes there is no way I can recall the specifics of each question. I do recall the question of laser eye surgery being raised and the CAA indicated that they'd prefer people didnt have corrective surgery and instead just wore glasses if at all possible.

Another message that CAA tried to convey was that they are trying to relax the minimum standards slightly. Particularly for multi crew operations and older pilots.

Thats pretty much the overview of the talk but as I say I wasn't taking notes or really trying to remember any of it so perhaps someone else can fill in the rest.

I'll post again with the second airlines Q&A at which I did take notes!

second airline recruitment q&a

This was a pure Q&A session, no talks were given beforehand so my notes reflect the kind of random mixture of questions that were fired.

MPL (Multi Pilot License) - currently airlines require MCC of all their recruits however the MPL seeks to train pilots to operate in a multi crew environment from early in their training and also results in a specific type rating. The MPL is not available from any schools as of yet as the details are still being discussed. The panel advised against the MPL because of the fact that it results in a specific type rating and would probably be more expensive than the current integrated ATPL. For low hours pilots they recommend not being type rated unless you have guaranteed employment on the type.

FlyBE hire low hour modular and integrated students and are presently growing at a compound rate of 20% resulting in a current requirement for +- 100 recruits per year. BA only accepts integrated courses and also only from \'the flying school down the road\' (OAT) however will accept direct entries from anyone with 500+ hours on an aircraft weighing 10 or more tons.

Currently the rules state that you cannot fly commercially past your 65th birthday but BA will retire you 55 years old. BA also require you to give them at least 5 years service in order to recoup their investment in you. The oldest hire mentioned was 37years old. From October 2006 BA will no longer be legally allowed to discriminate on age and there unable to retire people at 55 years old.

The demand for pilots at the moment in the airlines on panel is mostly dictated by pilots retiring and the growth of the organisation. Someone asked whethere there would be a retirement \'bulge\' (a lot of senior pilots retiring at the same time) this was refuted and the panel indicated that they had pilots from a wide demographic including age.

With regards higher education most of the airlines didnt care as much about whether a recruit had done higher education. They were mostly/only interested in his or her flying experience and licenses.

It was generally agreed by the panel that hour building could be done outside of the UK and it would not count against a recruit so long as the quality of the hour building was good. The message was to seek out the most challenging flying you can get your hands on. Asking your instructor post PPL about how he felt you\'d fair on the more advanced licenses was given as one way of assessing your potential on the rest of the course (obvious in my view). The airline selection process involves a simulator check ride with mostly raw data flying.

The airlines felt that people performed best at training providers where they felt comfortable. The message was don\'t be swayed by everyone elses choice of school because if you feel uncomfortable at that school you will not perform as well as you might normally.

When hiring pretty much the entire panel was focused on finding future captains so personality, social skills and independance were very important. If you can\'t make a captain in the future they don\'t seem to be interested! After about 2000 - 2500 hours or 3-4 years you can start looking at the left hand seat so its a pretty fast process.

With regard to people applying after a previous career the panel really couldnt care less about the details from your previous jobs that were not directly flying / captaincy related. They only want one A4 page CVs with flying experience right at the top and maybe an inch or so at the bottom for the details of your old job.

Conference concluded :)

[scroggs]

Splatt thankyou for your report. I have some comments which are relevant.

British Airways. BA do not only recruit from OAT. All of the major schools have been tapped in recent months for potential pilots. To clarify for anyone still in doubt, BA do not sponsor cadets; they trawl the schools for those about to graduate. The numbers are not large as by far the greatest proportion of BA recruiting is for direct-entry pilots who are already rated.

British Airways' ougoing retirement age of 55 is irrelevant. No wannbes are likely to join BA at age 54 and thus have to retire before their age policy is made illegal. BA will join the rest of the airlines in having a nominal retirement age of 60 to account for France, Italy, and Portugal's illegal discrimination against over-60 commanders (America operates the same policy, but it is legal under their law).

Retirement bulges This old chestnut has been doing the rounds since Pontious was approaching his dotage. The only time there was anything remotely resembling a 'retirement bulge' was when the generation of WW2-trained pilots left in the mid-60s.

Education I'm glad you've heard from the horse's mouth what I've been telling you for years. Education (beyond the basics) is not currently an issue for airlines. You don't have to go chasing degrees if you don't want to!

The airlines felt that people performed best at training providers where they felt comfortable. The message was don't be swayed by everyone elses choice of school because if you feel uncomfortable at that school you will not perform as well as you might normally.
Allelujah! Perhaps people will believe us when we say you don't have to go to OAT, FTE, Cabair or CTC!

CVs There is plenty of advice already available on this forum about CVs. If you don't look, you won't find it - but it is easy to look!

Scroggs

[BlueRobin]

John Monks did say in the morning session that although he couldn't quantify the effects, BA might expect the recruitment uptake to change if pilots stayed on after 55. This I guess assumes a static market. There were also some numbers explained the quantity of pilots required for each airframe order.

I have had a change of heart about CTC from fully negative to giving it consideration. I spoke to one CPL/IR graduate who had done everything independantly through a local school and financed everyhting through a European bank. Now the bsnk has no further funding for him to make money from flying. CTC in retrospect seem to be able to, near as dammit, place you with an airline. Does any other FTO do this?

I wonder if you know my aeroplane partner, scroggs? He's also a 340 SFO.

[slow_bird1]

I thought show was ok especially as I had a free ticket :D liked the airline recruitment seminar, and the beating off the airlines with a big stick that were just begging to give me my first commercial job - not :{ still wouldnt mind finding out who the nice young ladie in black was who asked about instuctor courses in the second seminar! :eek:
SB1

[Leezyjet]

For those after class 1 info :-

I had my class one the day before the flyer show so I am pretty well placed to tell you what they do.

It's pretty straight forward and not much to worry about.

You arrive at the CAA building and get issued with ID pass then report to Medical Section just inside the main entrance.

They then direct you into a cubical and you strip off above waist level and put on a white dressing gown then sit and wait in the waiting area.

You then get called and get your height and weight checked and they put a little cup through a hole in a wall into the toilets. You then enter the toliet and produce your urine sample and place it back in the hole in the wall - I went first so there was no other urine cups there, but all the guys who went after said that the part filled cups were still in the wall even when the last chap went in (6 of us). One guy mentioned to them that this wasn't a very secure way of doing it as the samples could be tampered with, but they said they are only checking for sugar levels and glucose and not for drugs so it wasn't a major concern to them.

You then return to the waiting area. They then begin calling out names, and each person goes off to have a different part of the remaining tests done so they can get you all done quickly, and you rotate around between each test.

I had my eyesight test first. It was only slightly different from a standard opticians eye test. They have you reading lines from a chart with each eye then both eyes, looking at a red line and telling them where the other red line crosses it (which I couldn't grasp at first as I was looking at the wrong lines oops!!!). You then look at the books for colour blindness, then he checks the back of your eyes. You then sit at a machine that blows a puff of air into your eye - this is quite strange as you reaction is to pull back but you have to try not to - this is the worst test they do.

After the eye test is over it's back to the waiting area.

Next I was called to do the hearing test. You sit in a sound proofed booth and they play different frequencies into the headphones and you indicate that you can hear them.

After this was a blood test. They prick your finger and take a couple of drops of blood and test them for cholesterol etc. (My cholesterol had been at 6+ 2 weeks before but I had been drinking those Flora pro-active things and drastically reduced my saturated fat intake during those 2 weeks and I was suprised to see it was down to 4 which is a normal level).

I then went to another room where they hook you upto a machine that checks your heart rate at rest, and then you do a lung capacity test which you get a couple of chances at. Basically fill your lungs up with as much air as you possibly can then blow it all out at a constant rate for as long as you possibly can. Then you repeat the test but this time you have to blow out as much air as possible as fast as possible. There is a bit of a knack to this that's why you get a couple of attempts.

Was then back to the waiting area.

The other guys had chest x-rays but I didn't require this as I already had one from my Class 2 in South Africa back in March so I got the cost of that and the attached report refunded. They are just checking though that all your internal organs are the right size and you have the right number of each and they are in the right places.

I was the last to go see the Doctor - the other guys had been discussing what SHE did to them, and when I was called I walked off giggling like a school kid, whilst the others were winking and laughing.

You go into a room and strip off to your underwear and lie on a bed. She takes your blood pressure and checks your breathing with a stethascope, then prods around at your abdomen. Then she poilitely asks you to pull down your underwear whilst she puts on a rubber glove. She then gives your nuts a quick feel, then you pull your underwear back up and stand up. She then checks your range of movement of your back, neck and arms. You then have a general chat about your medical history etc. then sign the forms they sent you.

If you take medication, take it with you so they can see check out whether it would be a problem, as most people don't tend to take it and have to get it checked out later via the CAA website.

One guy turned up in a full suit and shirt and tie. This is not necessary - it's not an interview after all and YOU are paying THEM. I just wore my jeans and a pair of trainers, and a sweatshirt - basically smart casual.

I would suggest wearing shoes that you can run in as the guy in the suit had to run around the car park for 10 minutes as he had trouble with the lung test, and you might also have to run for the heart rate test too.

They will tell you whether you have passed or not on the day, so no need to sit around at home worrying. the certificate should take 7-10 days to come through.

This link explaines what they are looking for generally :-
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_Med_Initial_Class1_Medex.pdf

This link is for the visual requirements :-
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED_JAR_C1_Initial_Visual_Stds.pdf

They are a very nice bunch of people and really make you feel at ease. It really is nothing to worry about.

:ok:

[bestkeptsecret]

...and don't forget the all important advice from the first seminar - DON'T PAY FOR A TYPE RATING - I particularly like John Monks' analogy that you wouldn't let someone who has just passed their driving test chauffer your family around the country until they'd built up some experience!

[Wazzoo]

splat
BA only accepts integrated courses and also only from 'the flying school down the road' (OAT) however will accept direct entries from anyone with 500+ hours on an aircraft weighing 10 or more tons.


scroggs
British Airways. BA do not only recruit from OAT. All of the major schools have been tapped in recent months for potential pilots. To clarify for anyone still in doubt, BA do not sponsor cadets; they trawl the schools for those about to graduate. The numbers are not large as by far the greatest proportion of BA recruiting is for direct-entry pilots who are already rated.


Just to clarify on this one. I was at the second lecture and while John Monk did say that BA only took integrated students he made no reference to a particular school. I know for a fact that they have taken cadets from all the major integrated schools recently.

scroggs
British Airways' ougoing retirement age of 55 is irrelevant. No wannbes are likely to join BA at age 54 and thus have to retire before their age policy is made illegal. BA will join the rest of the airlines in having a nominal retirement age of 60 to account for France, Italy, and Portugal's illegal discrimination against over-60 commanders (America operates the same policy, but it is legal under their law).


I think the point with this was that with the retirement age increasing, there would be a number of pilots staying with BA longer than they would have normally, thus lowering the intake at the bottom. To what extent that would be the case they said was unknow, but it would have some effect and is rellevant to a wannabe joining in a year or so time.

[no sponsor]

The analogy by Monks is ridiculous when applied to multi-crew; there's always an experienced captain on board. It's even more stupid when they have 200 hr guys in their A320s.

You would have thought he could have had a bit more imagination when thinking up of excuses to protect their daft recruitment policies.

The advice is about as useful as a catflap in an elephant house. Monks is so removed from reality of initial flight training I wouldn't pay much heed to it. Everyone I know who's got a TR has gotten a job at the end of it.

[Run DME]

Hello all,

Just thought I might add a further note here, as I managed to get a word with the Flybe Training Captain after the end of the second seminar.

Like splat, I noted that he had emphasised the importance of quality of hours as opposed to quantity.

When I asked him afterwards for more details about how someone could go about that, he suggested that value would be added by staying with one training provider throughout. The reason given was most students are not experienced enough to manage their own training, and by staying with one training provider, the transition from one stage to the next would be easier if your instructors know your strengths and weaknesses. I don't think he was advocating integrated over modular, as it is possible to go the modular route whilst staying with the same school.

I know modular vs integrated has been done to death, but I thought others might be interested in that. I missed the first seminar, so apologies if I am repeating it.

Ian, thanks for the viewpoint, and please correct me if I have misrepresented you.

[EGBKFLYER]

I don't see Capt. Cheese's connection between staying with one training provider and building quality hours.

I presume he is referring to folks who have to hours build in order to get their FATPL issued? In that case, I suppose an instructor who knows you could recommend some things to do to improve your skills in the time you need to do.

I was in the morning seminar and I understood him to say that he didn't believe 'boring holes in the sky' for hours just to make bigger logbook numbers added any value. I agree but I still don't make any connection with a single training provider (in fact if you want to do tailwheel, seaplane, formation, aeros etc etc there are few schools who could provide all that).