Hi guys, me again!

on a threat called "Virgin vs. BA" here at pprune and some threats people don´t write very good about BA and even some guys want to go back to their old companys with a lot of cargo night flights for less money. It´s not just one who is writing that, so my question:"IS BRITISH AIRWAYS REALLY THAT BAD????? I know pprune is of course a rumour network, and the pilots mentality, i guess, is that they are always unsatisfied with something in the company. If it wouldn´t be like that, than we would have anything to talk about during a long flight (of course there are some other very important topics, u know what i mean).
I would like to have some statements from BA pilots here. What do u think as pilots of a major-global-player compared to others?
This would be very interesting for me and a lot of other newjoiners. I work right now for a good but small airline with very good T´s & C´s but the managment is changing it. New entrys earn 35% less, and it will be just a matter of time until the older contracts will be terminated. I have a longhauloffer at BA, and it is a very big and lifechanging decision for me to take it or not. I´ll have to commute from europa mainland etc etc etc and i´m not a british guy! I know some will say: We had that topic already somewhere similar, so just use the search function - I did it and I´m aware about the pension and the time to command etc. I just want to get an overall overview with collected (merged) statements from BA-pilots that also the others, who are in the same situation like me can use. Thanks to all!!!
PS: Would u join again?

No its not that bad. I think it's pretty good overall but then I'm on the 747 which is largely insulated from the worst parts of the operation. What I can say is it's certainly not getting any better, and may get measurably worse in the next year. Management on the whole is very, very poor which creates a vicious circle because nobody decent wants to be a manager and work with the rest of them. On the whole keep your head down, get a seperate mobile phone so you can't be drafted, don't let the other departments p*** you off no matter how much they provoke you and you can have a pretty good time. Just don't fly the Airbus unless you want to be really tired and make sure you go out for a beer downroute or people will think you're a bit strange.

Best Ts+Cs and overall money package in the UK.

Not the best pension now though.

In fact you will be lucky to get a pension since the pension fund is underfunded to the tune of 66% of what BA is reputed to be actually worth.

In that, they are a national leader!

Just don't fly the Airbus unless you want to be really tired

It can't be as bad as any other s/haul out fit is it? like an easyjet or a midland?
If it is worse, how so?

Three letters. LHR. That makes your home base worse than pretty much anywhere Easy operate to, and you'll be there 50% of the time. That gives you plenty of opportunity to interact with the more militant/inept/understaffed departments such as cabin crew, ground staff, dispatchers, tug drivers, bus drivers etc etc. Add in utterly unrealistic schedules (35 min turnaorund for a full 319 with cleaning and recatering) and you'll soon realise you're on a hiding to nothing for the rest of the day and the only way to reduce the stress level is to say "f*** the schedule" and work at your own pace. Sad but true.

At least BA look after their 777 longrange pilots??!!

You will have seen the superb rest facilities on the Boeing LR aircraft that flew into LHR today. BA were going to put the same on their 777's about five years ago, to try and improve the standard of the pilots rest facility to somewhere approaching that of the cabin crew.

Remind me, did it happen?

And of course everything is just peachy in the LoCo world, charter world and Midland, who can barely get enough FO's to fly their programme.

The trouble with BA is that a lot of people don't know they are born because they've never worked for anyone else.

Even the ones who have soon get spoilt and turn into BALPA Forum moaners who make a conference of gay hairdressers seem unemotional.

If its so bad I don't know why these idiots stay, and don't say seniority, its a free world.

If its so bad I don't know why these idiots stay, and don't say seniority, its a free world.

The pension, I would imagine. If that goes, BA are likely to be even shorter staffed of pilots than they are now.

I used to work for someone else, and even though I loved it, I am happy to be at BA. Would certainly not consider working for a loco now that I am where I am (unless I didn't have a choice). As far as longhaul goes, with the 767 picking up some of the East Coast routes, the 777 will have better rosters in 6 months to a years time I reckon. The Jumbo is the fleet to be on though I would say.

I fly the 767 and I love it - although I am on the newer side of things.

If you are aware of the pension and retirement age legislation possibilities and you have your eyes open, then I reckon BA may well be a good choice. It depends where you are now.

The atmosphere is good generally and when you are away from LHR it is as fun as you make it. At LHR things can go very well, but there are too many occasions of niggly annoying things. If you let it wash its OK, if you are prone to getting annoyed by it, then be aware!

who can barely get enough FO's to fly their programme

Don't get out much do you NN? Obviously missed the fact that we have managers meeting aircraft on a daily basis to force draft people because we don't have enough FOs to fly the programme!:p

In fact you will be lucky to get a pension since the pension fund is underfunded to the tune of 66% of what BA is reputed to be actually worth.
Rubbish - the pension that new joiners are on is Defined Contribution - there is no underfunding of the new scheme whatsoever, hence why NAPS is closed to new DB joiners and BAPS provides a DC pension. The DC scheme cannot be underfunded as it promises nothing other than the return on the investments - the risk is on you.

The DC pension is underfunded because if the contribution rate cannot possibly produce a reasonable fund to purchase a pension, it is by definition underfunded. A not unreasonable Captain's pension might be £25K with 20 years service. Say a £5K annuity costs £100K. The fund would therefore need to be £500K. The current funding will provide £300K, hence it is woefully underfunded. Cathay pay 15.5% of gross, Virgin pay 15% of basic. BA pay 12% of 75% of basic (9%).

If BA would just fix the DC pension to a realistic rather than penny pinching level I could whole heartedly say that BA is by far the best company to fly for.

If you don't like the pension go to Virgin. Or so our Director of Flight Ops recently said to a new DEP in front of a gobsmacked audience.

Now I've heard everything!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

If you don't like the pension go to Virgin



Well thats that decided then :D

Whaaooo there boy!!!!

Did he actually say go to Virgin?!!!

I'd previously heard the response was along the lines of : 'Well, you knew the deal when you started.'

However, I hear more and more that the deal was NOT clear to new starters. It was only described as "Industry Leading".

Flying Tom: Do you have a reference for Cathay and Virgin figures? If these are true then BA members of BALPA should be outraged at how we have let down our new colleagues.

He certainly did use those words Finger Bob, I heard them myself! This was shortly after the CEO said the BARPS pension scheme was OK as he was on it - conveniently forgot to mention he's also on a 250% bonus! Either way they both adamant there would be no increase to the companys contribution rate to BARPS.

I was stood at the bus-stop yesterday (in the rain) when the self same Director of Flight crew drove past in his brand new Jaguar XK coupe. He gave me a cheery wave which I returned - well sort of :ok:

The DC pension is underfunded because if the contribution rate cannot possibly produce a reasonable fund to purchase a pension, it is by definition underfunded.
To you it may not be adequate, but by the standards that an 'underfunded' pension scheme exists in both the media and accounting terms, it is not. The company owes no further money other than what it gave to BAPS in contributions for members. The NAPS and APS old DB schemes however require the company to make up the shortfall - at least in NAPS which is underfunded - over the next 10 years or face remediation action from the PPF to prevent the state being overloaded with promises made in the past that companies cannot fulfil.

BA have made no promises on what you shall get from BAPS - capitalism dictates that when the terms are insufficient that BA will not be able to hire the staff.

capitalism dictates that when the terms are in sufficient that BA will not be able to hire the staff.

Force drafting at the aircraft again today. 30+ uncovered trips over the weekend on the 777 alone!:ok:

Re-Heat:

Are you sure that you are not really LCG?

Finger-Bob:

Let me just check my recently received Cathay Introductory Brief letter, oh yes, 15.5% salary Provident fund. Discretionary annual bonus one months salary, housing assistance, school fees, LOL, critical illness cover, 11 years to long haul command, tax 15%..........

BA: "You knew what you were signing up to when you signed your contract".

Did I? BA and BALPA were both in discussion when I joined. BA promised an "industry leading" 12% of salary orally at interview but convieniently forgot to mention only 75% was pensionable. When I phoned for explanation BA said read the MOA, they unfortunately couldn't mail me one as each consumed a small rain forrest. BALPA said the DC pension would be "not as good as NAPS but OK", when I later went to the BFS pension advisor he said, "Oh yes, the BARP pension is crap, your best bet is to pay max AVC." "Will that make it a decent pension?" "Err... not really."

Those BA managers are worth every penny of their salary and bonus's, they certainly know how to manage and motivate.

SFO's look out, it's your NAPS pension they really want, they need the Captains on-side so they can get it. But when they ask why you won't oblige quote back: "because we knew what we were signing up to when we signed the contract".

So can new joiners 'help' in any way? For me, it's a different country, different regulations and I don't understand every abbreviation used in this discussion.

I know the pension is getting worse... But as I said... Can new joiners do anything at all about this?

Cheers.

MD11Man

Yes sorry about the abbreviations, it is proof that you have fully joined when you can reel them off, and I'm moaning too so I must be a fully integrated Nigel.

At the moment the only thing new joiners can do about the pension is join BALPA and pressure them into pressuring BA. BA are pretty immune to pressure at the moment because people like me keep joining. Alternatively we could break off from BALPA and form a new pressure group or join the Transport and General Workers Union. BA listen to the TGWU and would much prefer all pilots to belong to BALPA.

What has changed with the new CEO is that management are now much more militant than the workers. There are huge costs that need reducing but those that are going to pay aren't the ones that can be accused of causing them.

Because we DEPs mostly come from LoCo backgrounds we expect less but have actually given more, ie. free type rating, low pension overhead, wage reduction. A 30 year baggage handler can cost the company £35M, still get a full final salary pension and provide zero flexibility. A 30 year retired Captain's pension drawn from today will exceed my total career earnings for about a third of my remaining career.

Joining BA is like winning the gold medal but finding it's not solid gold but gold plated. Looks the same but not worth the same.

Perhaps BALPA needs a BARP Rep.

I nominate Flying Tom!;)

Can new joiners do anything at all about this?

Seriously, don't join. When the current trickle dries up market forces will ensure the pension improves.

Yes it really is that bad.

Mismanagement over the years has led to a very low level of morale.

With regards to pensions, management are currently carrying out a propoganda campaign to try to convince emoloyees that it is their job to make up the underfunding of NAPS. Obviously they will have to push this through before the regulator insists that BA fund the shortfall (as they easily could).

Apparently there will be some very large bonuses on the way to management should they succeed in duping the employees into funding the shortfall.

I understand that a new joiner could easily end up with a pension of less than £10000 pa after 20 years of what is effectively permanent standby or duty.

Finally, pilots are undoubtedly pressured to turn up when less than fit due to the draconian absence management policy.

Thanks for that, FlyingTom. You seem to have a good knowledge of the case. I will certainly consider all the advice you gave me, and hope to find a lot of information in my contract.

@<hidden> Human Factor

Not joining is not really an option. I am a low timer.

Certainly, the information here woke me up. I will try to find more info on this.

MD11Man

Not joining is not really an option. I am a low timer.

Fair cop. Just shop around and make sure you know what you're getting into.

cornet et al,

Having joined BA from elsewhere just under a year ago, I would stress that it’s vital to get a balanced a view as possible of the company. And establish the facts.

I came from a large charter company and, for what it’s worth, I am more than happy with my lot at BA. The company is far from perfect, and a lot of the above mentioned issues are very real, but some people are making mountains out of molehills.

What I see, time and time again, are people I suspect to be ex-cadets, or people who have been cocooned in a BA blanket for a long time, bitching and moaning on this and other forums. It would seem that they have little or no appreciation of the realities of aviation outside of BA. Whilst I would be the first person to stand and fight for our T + C's, the reality is that no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days. Unfortunate, but true. And the fact of the matter is that people are still applying in droves, so what does that tell you......

Feel free to PM me if you like. Some people might say that my views don’t count as I'm still in my BA “honeymoon period”. Perhaps they’re correct. Or perhaps it’s because I've seen a bit more of the industry outside of BA over recent years than some.....

Good luck with the decision,

C_8

And the fact of the matter is that people are still applying in droves, so what does that tell you......

Perhaps you have yet to fly with a selector? It's not about load factor, it's about yield.

you always hear the bad stories the good stories never see the daylight people are used to whinging you can never make anyone happy all the time so join in mate and enjoy the ride :ok:

Re-Heat:

Are you sure that you are not really LCG
I am quite sure who I am thank you

A 30 year baggage handler can cost the company £35M, still get a full final salary pension and provide zero flexibility. A 30 year retired Captain's pension drawn from today will exceed my total career earnings for about a third of my remaining career.
That is why there is such a problem.

If you underestimate what the new regulator will do to companies who fail to fund their promises, or find some agreement with staff to reduce the promises made to underfunded schemes, if could well be companies going down the pan along with any hope of refunding underfunded DB schemes.

At least as a DC scheme member, newer employees don't run the risk of losing the whole lot if the company fails. DB scheme members are in a far worse position having to fully fund retired members' pensions before all others. You could end up with the state pension - or less if you contracted out.

Would you not incentivise management to come to an agreement through bonuses? Far cheaper than actually being forced by PPF to follow their plan.

CM,

Whilst I respect your opinion and many of the valid points that you raise on this forum, both my memory and history show that you have never had a single good word to say about your employer. Can I just ask one question; if you are so dissatisfied with you lot, why don't you move to pastures greener?!

Regards,

C_8

Cuban 8, I suggest that you are in the "honey moon" period as I was just over 7 years ago, after various employment with various companies, and sadly I am a "cocooned cadet".

Come back in 7 years time. Then feel free to post on how much down the plug hole your terms and conditions have gone because you think its OK.

How many times you have seen our glorious luvies refuse to operate because they need an extra crew member now the club load has gone from 21 to 22. Then after you have waited for 45 mins for them to arrive you call ready, ah but you've forgotten the tuggies are going off shift "sorry mate not my problem" result you miss your slot then wait another hour for a tug. Thats OK cos everyone else is getting overtime, all that is except you.

After a few years it wears a bit thin. Before you shout "Nirvana" from the rooftops spend more than "just under one year" in my shoes
:{

Can I just ask one question; if you are so dissatisfied with you lot, why don't you move to pastures greener?!

Perhaps after thirty-five years, having paid a fortune into the pension scheme you might just feel the same. Would you give up the 75K pension and 250K lump sum?

To sum it up, after all those years, you exit the flight deck after your very last flight to be told by the First Class Purser "I poured a glass of champagne for all the crew to toast your retirement, but the CSD made me pour them all down the sink, no drinking in his cabin". Perhaps a manager to say goodbye.. well it was a Sunday morning, Say no more.

If you class this as whinging then good luck to you!

C_8 - If I've never had a single good word to say about my employer then I suggest you ought to read my first post on this thread. Whilst you seem to look down on people who, in your words, "have little or no appreciation of the realities of aviation outside of BA", might I remind you that you are not working in the world of aviation outside of BA. You are working for BA now, which historically has had better terms of employment for its pilots than the rest of the UK industry. Those terms were not achieved by looking at the UK outside BA and saying"Oh how lucky we are". Had we adopted that approach we'd be negotiating down to the levels of our cheapest competitors, not negotiating upwards like Virgin did (incidentally, they did that using the benchmarking data compiled by the BACC).

You may believe that "no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days", but I suggest you take a look at BAs accounts, as many before you have done over many years, and consider the cost base and productivity of the Flight Ops department compared to BA's overall turnover. Then compare that data to those of our major competitors. If you email your BALPA reps you may even get hold of the latest benchmarking data. You'll find that we're rather good value compared to our (profitable) international competitors. Attempts to screw yet more pennies from us are driven primarily by management desires to reach their bonus targets rather than the likelihood of making any significant contribution to profitability. Perhaps in another year when you've sat out a de-icing fiasco at LHR, a two week cancellation spree after snow in the USA leaves us 'short' of cabin crew, and another ground staff walk out you'll be less inclined to believe that profitability has to come directly out of your pocket.

DD,

I have to say I beg to differ with your opinion. I made it clear that, in my opinion, BA is far from perfect. However, do you think that the problems to which you allude to are exclusive to BA?! Surely you are not that ignorant.

What I am saying is that the industry is, unfortunately, going down hill. Being an airplane driver is not the job it used to be. Perhaps BA is the best of a bad bunch. I can assure you from what I know that these problems, and more, exist elsewhere. At least we are not really exposed to the constant uncertainty and dubious job security that a lot of our colleges are!

If, as a seven year veteran like yourself, I am back here moaning about the company, I’m certain I will be doing so confident in the knowledge that the grass really is no greener elsewhere!

wp,

I am well aware that BA is not the sort of company that you leave at the drop of a hat, the implication of doing so are significant. However, I am merely suggesting that if I were as disgruntled as CM seems to be, I would SERIOULSY consider moving on. Life is too short. I am certain he has nowhere near 35 year service...... I would be very inclined not to be counting on that 75k and 250k lump sum too!!!

It is very disappointing to hear about your experience. But I’m sure you saw things change significantly over your time, and that is a sign of things to come. I wish I was in the industry over the era that you were, the fun seems to be disappearing rapidly these days :-(.

Kind Regards,

C_8.

As an outsider my apologies for butting in but.....

What I am saying is that the industry is, unfortunately, going down hill. Being an airplane driver is not the job it used to be. Perhaps BA is the best of a bad bunch.

the reality is that no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days.

Whilst I applaud you for wanting to maintain your present T&C I implore you to fight for better.

As has been stated earlier on this thread BA has the best T&C and as an easyJet driver I'd like them to stay that way as if nothing else it gives us something to aim for even we don't quite reach it :{

You are misguided though to think that you have to come down to the lowest common denominator. How about setting the standard. If you track the bottom you'll end up in a spiral dive. If you go higher companies have to follow. Nobody is talking about being greedy......

Remember your managers are on bonuses to produce cost savings. Roughly translated they'll get richer if they make you poorer. Whether it's adowngrade from a Sheraton to Marriott and before you know it you're in a Travel Inn by the motorway (I jest not).

Do you want to be poorer?

A little cut here and there soon mounts up. Once lost it's very difficult to get back.

Well Cuban 8 clearly has aspirations of being a manager, think of all those KPIs he would get:*

I think you might just be right Da Dog.

So all this posts don´t make my decision to change or not a lot easier!!!! But as you know yourself the T´s & C´s are going down everywhere. Right now I have a perfect pension sheme. My company pays me 47% of my last sallery when I´m retired for the rest of my life. But as I said "right now", I´ll have to work another 35 years and I don´t think that my current employer wants to pay into that sheme for me for so many years. It´s just a matter of time when they won´t do it anymore. Anyway I don´t know if I´m still alive in 35 years with flying 900 hrs a year. So the pension sheme is not really a point not to join BA. I´ll earn almost 1000 Pound a month more at BA than at my present empl., and with that money I can/will increase the monthly pay to my personal private pension sheme at an insurance company. That pension I will get sure, and I´ll not rely on any pension sheme of any empolyer. I just think, as also all the "economic gurus" promise, that there will just a few big airlines survive in europe: BA, LH, Air France & KLM. The rest will be low cost and feeder for the big ones. I don´t want to be pilot of a feeder airline flying 5+legs a day for the rest of my life.
But I also love my current airline, and have still a good contract but how long will it stay like that????? The disprofit this year will be huge, and then i guess will the managers come again and take it from us.

Anyway I don´t know if I´m still alive in 35 years with flying 900 hrs a year.

It's good to hear you have other pension arrangements. However, I'm interested to know how many hours less per year you think you'll be flying with BA....

You'll only fly less than 900 hours in BA if you are a manager!

No seriously, they do work the longhaul guys hard, but they are not ALL at 900 hours every year. They work the shorthaul guys hard too. Remember some of that 900 hours is asleep, so it cannot be directly compared with 900 hours shorthaul. That's not to say they don't wark hard.

The things above I would agree with, although not in the same volume. They are about to nick half our pension, and we do have frustrations as litsted above, but they exist elsewhere too. I didn't belive that my pension was safe from the moment I discovered I was one of the last to join. I will do what I can to protect it, but I don't hold out much faith.

I spoke to a Virgin FO the other day down route. I suggested their 750 hour limit was better than the BA 900 hour limit. He then came up with a list of things that were better in BA. Result: Grass is Greener. Just make sure you know what you are getting into.

Maybe it wrote it missunderstanding, I don´t expect to fly less than 900hrs. But I´ll get a lot more money for the same work and 900 hrs longhaul as stated above are "easier" than 900hrs shorthaul with max. 1hr legs :-)

DD et al,

Off course! Since I generally adopt a positive attitude about my employer and don't spend the majority of my time incessantly whinging, I must have management aspirations. Grow up!

cornet,

As always, it is hard to establish a true picture of the company on this forum because of the extreme views of the vocal few that have nothing better to do than constantly whinge. I can promise you that the attitudes of the majority flying the line at BA are positive. Infact, I would say that the views of JS and n_n are typical of what you will encounter every day. The current company pension contribution is pants, and could really do with being improved. However, anyone in a DB pension scheme with any significant time left in the industry had ought not to count on it, IMHO.

I think you probably know, or will soon know, enough of the facts to make your own decision. We have plenty of foreign nationals working here, many that commute. I just don't want you to go away thinking that the majority of BA flight crews are as manically disillusioned as some people on this forum might suggest!

Once again, good luck!

C_8

I'm not disillusioned I just won't roll over. Anyone looking at NAPs has got to see that there is an enormous freight train rushing towards it. On this occassion I could sit back and say "I'm all right Jack. BA can't make my pension much worse they've already slashed it." But looking beyond I can see the consequences of not standing up to this attack on NAPs terms and conditions. If BA pilots don't stand united we will be picked off individually group by group.

The NAPs pilots joined BA because of the package at the time and it is totally wrong for BA to take it away. There is no pension shortfall long term, and pensions are long term investments. There is a shortfall in the value of my flat this year because it was going up at 10%, it doesn't mean I have to double my payements, long term it will regain track. Of course if the bank decided to move out of mortgages to make more profit elsewhere they could bombard me with negative advertising to make me think I needed to pay a higher interest rate!

The thing that gets me about all the threads recently is that pilots seem to be embarassed about the salarys they earn. I'm not, I'm a highly trained professional, I've invested tens of thousands in my career and I belong to a finite employable pool. I work long unsociable hours and (with the help of my Captain!) I am responsible for the safety and profitability of a multi billion pound corporaration. I also love my job.

Stop the downward pressure on pilots' status. That's what reduced pay really equates to. The job looks easy when it's performed by a professional. Watching a surgeon work looks easy. Watching an incompetent surgeon is horrendous.

Ah but you see flying tom Cuban 8 thinks that the downward pressure on out terms and conditions is OK:*

I say again cuban 8, give yourself a few more years and we will see how "motivated" you are, I dont need to "grow up" I have been there seen it done it and got the T shirt, but you would'nt know would you?:confused:

I agree with cuban8 - a lot of views on this forum are extreme. To add my tuppence worth, I was a cadet, have been in 5 years, and work SH on the 737 at LGW - supposedly the s***e fleet.

I'm very happy. Work very hard in summer, not so hard but still steady in winter.

Pay is good.

Minimum 11 days off a month - often 12/13.

Nightstops - 6/7 per month - just right for me.

3 weekends off a month (if I choose to bid for them)

Coming up to longhaul soon so excited about that.

In conclusion, BA certainly ain't perfect, and the internal politics can be shocking at times. But my attitude is - go to work, have a laugh, do the job well, go home and have a life outside BA (crucial to keep sane!).

Maybe there is better out there, but I know there is worse.

HTH

Mary.

The thing to remember about BA is that it is a mature company. The T's & C's will continue to erode despite all the smoke, mirrors and special effects dreamt up by the management and BALPA.

It will probably be worthwhile considering other options as they may prove more fruitful.

BA has reached the heady heights of mediocrity as a company but most people buy the hype.

Its an ideal place to work if you find thinking difficult as the company has a set of rules for everything.

Come to work, switch off, go home.

Not sure how a cadet can claim to know that other places are worse, must be all that life experience.

Best speak to those who have been round the block a few times before signing up. BA likes cadets becasue they are very loyal and seldom question the company. They are also cheap, ideal employees.

Harry the non-believer (fly Virgin)

What about the stability of the rosters? Is it possible to have a private life?

Roster stability used to be excellent - however there is a nasty little clause in our agreements that allows the Company to tell you to come to work and you have little option but to obey. It was an option little used until recently, it has now become a major problem.....so you plan your private life with care and/or don't pick up the telephone if it rings.

(oh yeah, and don't believe anything the management tell you about pensions either)

Most of the points raised about BA are absolutely true.

There is no point in drawing comparisons against the "heady days" of max allowances, final salary pensions and hardly any flying. The commercial world has changed both inside and outside of aviation. People work harder, have less time at home and don't have the security of guaranteed pensions anymore. Go and spend 6 months working as a manager in another industry and you will come running back to BA unless you have become thoroughly disillusioned with flying in general. Most of my non flying and flying friends who work for other airlines would gladly swap seats with me.

I enjoy working for BA as the salary is good, route variation maintains your interest, bidline allows you to build your own roster, a/c are well maintained, seniority is honoured, I only work about 15 days a month, cockpit culture allows far more involvement in the the flight than many other airlines, good career prospects and most importantly of all - job security (well as much as you can in this industry). After 9/11 many airlines laid off pilots without a second thought. Including Virgin, which we all love to use as a yardstick. BA kept all their pilots employed, even if some were re-deployed elsewhere. The point is, they could still feed their family and pay the mortgage. Airlines that appear to offer more can take this away in a heartbeat and leave you high and dry. I'm not staying BA has any loyalty, employee compassion, or ethics - it doesn't! Some of these militant outdated agreements to which many people allude whilst generally being archaic do have one or two positive clauses in them.

However, I can't disagree with any of the negative points raised either. The trick with LHR is to just do the best you can and switch off the moment it goes beyond your control. As for management: piss up and brewery spring to mind. If you want a better pension, put some of the extra salary away or use the time off to work PT from home and gain a 2nd income - I do. Many people talk about time to command and how its so much shorter in other airlines. Ask yourself why. Most pilots stay at BA. I never became a pilot just so I could massage my ego with 4 stripes, make myself feel important and try to impress friends at dinner parties - get a life! Do you want £70k as the skipper of a lo-cost 737 on a multi sector day, multiple there and back Canaries and Greek islands all summer with a charter carrier. Or do you want a similar package, less flying, less fatigue, more family time and less stress as an SFO on one of the Boeing fleets in BA? Unless your life is not complete with those extra stripes I know where I woud rather be. I'll take the command when it eventually arrives.

The bottom line is that I enjoy working at BA. It is less stressful than any other job I have ever done. I get paid to fly a nice aircraft, eat food, read the paper and enjoy the view. By the time I get onto the crew bus at the end of a duty I am already switching off and once in the car, I honestly struggle to remember what I've done for the last few days. Thats it in a nutshell. My wife says it is the least stressed she has seen me for 10 years. Treat it as a job, keep your outside interests, find a nice hobby or 2nd job and make sure you see family and friends with all that time off. BA is very worthwhile if you make the effort to have a life. Despite your best efforts this is not always that easy to achieve in other airlines. At least I have a choice in BA.

"Don't wait for your boat to come in, row out and meet it" (Got that off one of those pretentious desktop calendars a few years ago - but it sounds appropriate for this thread!)

Here endeth todays lesson.

It´s not just one who is writing that, so my question:"IS BRITISH AIRWAYS REALLY THAT BAD?????

And it's not ALL that are writing it either!

For such a large organisation, by percentage, a very small amount are unhappy, and for different reasons.

Logic suggests that in any organisiation, there are always going to be people unhappy, but it's because something set in place doesn't suit their individual needs or requirements, but it's fine for thousands of others.

If everyone was happy, there would be no vacancies at any time and everyone would be queueing up to work there. If they were that popular, they'd start cutting salaries and taking away benefits to fall in line with other airlines where staff were unhappy!

"You can please some of the people some of the time......"

I just made the plunge, starting in March.
Hmmmm 5 days of 12 hours (10 sectors) or 12 days of 12 hours (35-40 sectors). Sure it's tiring but propably not as great a damage to your health and life as it is in the Lo-Co world.

Tally-Ho!

Don't kid yourself Shaka Zulu. Working through the night and shifting time zones is bad for the long term health!

Reckon Loco versus long haul for long term health is about the same.

Still think BA is great career.

Best of luck! :ok:

Yes Scottie I do concur. However I've seen enough of the low cost at the moment that makes me think that I wouldnt survive another ten years or so!

Any idea how many people (reliable info please) BA still requires on the 777 and other types?

The trouble with BA is that there are too many civilian trained pilots and those of us who have the best trainging in the world bar none receive no enhanced seniority and are made to fac humiliation with 2 stripes on joining, then are supposed to answer to some spotty 30 year old captain.

Also BALPA is infested with militant little oiks who need some discipline in their lives (I refuse to be a member).

At least more and more management positions are being filled by ex-RAF pilots which is a very welcome thing.

Once 2006 legislation comes in we may be able to challenge the seniorty system and gain some rightful enhanced seniority for those of us who have served Queen and Country, and not spent half our lives being mollicoddled by house masters and approved schools, or, God forbid, come from GA.

Be a dear and do my walkround for me will you Flashy? Don't want to get my new Patrick Cox shoes wet. And its one sugar in my tea next time or you won't get a landing.

Now you wouldn't be the little scamp I failed in the sim recently would you?

Wouldn't be me. Besides, your bunch are all far too junior to be training captains on my fleet.

I am a training first officer dear chap.

If I can't be given enhanced seniority at least I can teach civilians how to attempt to get somewhere near to the level we are trained to.

But we all know TFOs don't have the nuts or the know-how to fail anybody in the sim!;) Never mind, next time I have a sim you can show me how to lower my game to your level.

Now I know you're joking.

I've chewed up and spat out better than you in the RAF dear boy

Who has got a chip on his shoulder????OMG

LF,

If I may ask (out of interest), what was your Service a/c type history? Why leave such a high-standard RAF profession for one which you continually berate?

Vim

Flashy,
'Training First Officer etc.' - oh dear, do stop it old chap - its just SO very embarassing. I was going to get a kebab tonight but I now feel sick...........
I'm not sure if you're deliberately being a cock to raise some laughs; if so then great because its hilarious - if not then you're letting yourself down I'm afraid.

Custard or cream with your slice of humble pie sir?

:yuk:

Flashy demonstrates the usual low level of CRM skills that I know so well amongst ex-mil pilots in FR. The same level of CRM that is only matched by the extraordinary arrogance level that tries to, but comphrehensively fails, to cover up the general lack of ability to operate 2 crew passenger transports.
Perhaps, Flashy, you'd like to study how such general arrogance and self-importance has contributed to so many incidents. A good case study to start with would be the famous Delta audit of Korean Airlines. I refer you in particular to the portion of blame for the low standards laid at the door of incompetent ex-mil pilots.

And yes, I am aware you are a wind-up.

Lord f......t you are exactly the reason that people like me, who have been asked by BA to apply, will definately not. I would rather starve than spend 8-12 hours in the cockpit with you. I have flown with people that have probably got more hours on top of the loop than you and yet they remain humble and agree that they will will never stop learning.

Lord f......t you are exactly the reason that people like me, who have been asked by BA to apply

So we as a company are going round asking individuals to apply are we?

What did they do call your mobile or pop round for a cup of tea?

Yeah right.

Plus if you can't see through such a blatant wind up you are way too stupid to get in anyway.

Boooring!

PS - N_N. They have taken to writing to, and then if they get no response; phoning up previous candidates who were marginal last time. Unfortunately the "I'm alright Jack" fat cats have let the deal for new recruits become so unattractive that many like CHAF and myself need have little hesitation in declining. I agree it's a bloody obvious wind up though.

Lord_Flashhart,

Love the posts; keep them coming!
Someone to make these forums worth reading at times.

Why is it on here when anyone posts something that is true but not necessarily popular it is branded a "wind up", to use peoples' vulgar populist phrase?

Normal _Nigel. You are in no position to criticise anyone given your appalling views and the fact you haven't had the benefit of RAF training.

I see you are a BA cpatain. The fact you are and the fact I am not despite my obvious superior experience, illustrates what is wrong with civilian seniority based airlines.

Enhanced seniority for ex- Forces pilots is the only way to restore the rightful balance.

I take it Flash will wind his neck in when he gets a command.

Someone do us all a favour and promote him - at least to give the rest of us some peace.

Alternatively, does the Air Force want him back? :E

Keep him as a two striper as his ramblings are well amusing!!!

Nice one Flashy.

I still think you are a wind up, although I have seen an attitude close to yours on a few occasions.

You certainly fit the bill.

Bitter, ex-forces and management/training at the first oppurtunity because your ego can't take it.

However you are definately a wind up.

LF is a charlatan. He won't answer my question, I am assuming, because to do so, would be to fabricate a lie. His grammar and sentence construction gives him away as never having worn the rank of an officer.
Any amusement from his posts is diminishing with every monotonous posting. His charade is pathetic.

Vim

Hawks and Harriers if you must know

Great answer Flt Lt The Lord Flasheart; if you had told them about your time on the VC-10, L-1011 and the C-17 they would have been incandescent with rage.

At least by telling the world that you were on the Hawk and the Harrier you have removed all doubts that your experience is far in excess of anything that BA could possibly produce.

You should certainly expect at least 15 years of notional seniority in BA. Good luck; I only got 10 years notional seniority when I left and joined civil aviation.

Let's face it, it is money for old rope. I can't remember when I was last required to exceed 30° of bank. Most of the lesser mortals that I have to fly with would have no idea how to recover from a spin on limited panel.

Come to think of it, most of them have never actually had to do a spin!

But does that make them any less of a pilot? ;)

Vim

LF may be a wind up merchant but he is very good.

His grammar and sentence construction gives him away as never having worn the rank of an officer.

Smoked your pomposity out didn't he?;)

LF,

Lucky you. However, your style goes against the typical modest grain of a self-respecting fighter pilot, I must say.

You must be lonely up on that pedestal you've built for yourself. But you probably have a mirror to keep you company.


Vim

JW411,

Let me have a guess:

a) Apply full anti-spin rudder, centering the ailerons and moving the stick slightly forward of central and allow adequate time for the controls to take effect.

b) If rotation does not stop after maintaining this action for at least two turns, application of up to 1/4 in-spin aileron should assist recovery, but there is a risk that this will induce a continuing roll and may mask recognition of recovery.

c) When rotation ceases centralise all controls. Check that IAS is building up rapidly and ease the a/c out of the dive.


Best not to assume anything JW, most pilots know that.

Vim

normal_nigel


Just in time to spit the hook out, thanks! Walking away from the light...

Vim

I have to admit I agree with Vim, although his wise words are far more eloquent than mine will ever be.

Also my suspicions with regards to (the majority of) BA pilots have been confirmed by reading some of the posts. :yuk:

I think I shall be approaching my colleagues with a new lease of love tomorrow!

Blu

If you can't spot a wind up merchant Blu2 then it's definately best you don't work for BA. Keep your stereotypes to yourself thank you.

a) Apply full anti-spin rudder, centering the ailerons and moving the stick slightly forward of central and allow adequate time for the controls to take effect.
Forgot to check the power setting - you've probably now exceeded Vne:E

I let it run for a few days, but clearly this topic has outlived its usefulness on this forum.