Left it late, doing it anyway, but where and how?

[soneraisam]

I have spent all day reading the stickies about age and training routes etc and am still sure that this is what I want to do. However, I think that my age (46) might have more influence on the integrated/modular question than for younger people. For instance, I want to complete the training and get flying ASAP, but is the integrated route definitely the quickest? Does the integrated route lead to a job quicker?

On the subject of jobs, most of the discussions seem to be aligned to working for a European airline, but there are presumably many non-airline flying jobs. I am prepared to work anywhere in the world (I used to work overseas in a previous carrier). I think the UN operate a lot of aircraft around the world. And then there are a lot of overseas airlines, I believe there are numerous airlines starting up in India and China etc.

But it is that first job that seems to be the difficult one to get. There seems to be a catch-22 with most FO jobs requiring a number of hours on-type, which is unlikely unless you have already had a similar job. I get the impression that there is a bit of a shortage of flight crews at the moment, but are there actually many jobs for someone with a frozen ATPL?

A bit of background info: I have a masters degree in tropical agriculture, currently run a business (restaurant), and have a PPL with about 90 hours. I own a PFA a/c which I should have been building hours in, but is still not ready!! Am going to the Flyer Prof. Flt. Training show next week.

Any comments/suggestions very welcome.

Sam.

[RVR800]

The problem is many people 20 years younger than you
are having to build hours post integrated (or modular) to be attractive to an airline. So its not that quick. Then there is the hours commensurate with age thing. Good luck...

[soneraisam]

I didn't know that "hours commensurate with age" was a thing. That doesn't bode well. But that is the kind of thing I need to know. Can you elaborate at all?

Many thanks,

Sam.

[RVR800]

Some airlines state this on adverts. It is basically ageist so may not be printed on adverts as often nowadays as it once was......

[wbryce]

Hello Soneraisam,

Its obviously a big financial commitment should you not be financially well off! I would consider how it would affect you or family should you take the financial plunge and go for the fATPL!

Theres alot of learning involved; although the material isn't hard its the amount of information you must learn and keep in the head that gets you.

If I was you I would speak to some of the individual schools (oxford, FTE, cabair etc) and ask questions about fellow students whose age wasn't on their side neither! This may give you a good insight and help you in your decision.

Good luck with what ever you do.

wbryce.co.uk

[scroggs]

Try this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193670&highlight=too+old+age) for a bit more background info. If you search, you'll find that age is one of the most common topics of discussion.

[b]Scroggs[/b

[soneraisam]

Thanks for that link Scroggs, a very enlightening, if depressing thread. It would be unfair to turn down an applicant but give the job to someone else with similar experience who was simply younger, but as an employer I know that you cannot single out one aspect of selecting new staff, and the job cannot be given to both. I am sure airlines are smart enough to take on a broad selection new recruits (but what is the likelihood of it being broad enough to include a 46 y/o with fATPL - I suppose that is my question).

Going back to my original post, what about non-airline jobs. All the discussions seem to be related to mainstream airline employment. There must be a considerable number of flying positions around the world that do not involve flying large jets full of passengers. And perhaps many that do not require an ATPL. Is there anybody out there who happily flies outside the world of airline flying?

Sam.

[Blackpoolwarrior]

Sam - Just do it - and start NOW - get onto the OAT modular ground school for a start- next one January.....

[Danny_manchester]

It wouldnt really be unfair to choose a guy over you who had the same qualifications, and was a younger age, because airlines are looking for long term, prospects.

Good luck.

[High Wing Drifter]

I read all this negative stuff about oldies on proon, but when I talk to line pilots I get a different impression. Not entirely different, but considerably more positive than the representations made here :hmm:

[YYZ]

I with HWD, us oldies have something to offer to all, But it is harder for us to get the first job that's for sure.

If you can afford it then go for it, if's a great ride getting the licence!

YYZ

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Most low hour older guys 40+ seem to wonder why the airlines are not so hot on them. My guess is that the airlines see them as a training risk for type ratings. As a flying instructor I noticed that the 40+ set were always slower on the uptake than younger types on IR and multi training. What this meant in practical terms was more very expensive training hours. If you have the cash to back up your ambitions this may be okay. However, when it is an airline paying up they would be reluctant to keep stumping up; hence the reluctance to take you on in the first place.

If you honestly don't care for the airline thing and are not interested by the heavy metal I think you should still go for it. Air taxi could be fun and instructors higher up the food chain make good money. However, I doubt you are ever going to get a justifiable return on your 60k; an investment it ain't.

[Danny_manchester]

I can safely say that no airline would consider a trainee at 40+ a safe investment, and i would seriously doubt that a pilot who has experience would say otherwise.

I think you should phone an airline, such as BA, and ask them what they think, get a professional opinion, i would think that your best bet maybe air taxi on turboprops etc. or eaven general aviation (socially).

good luck, don't mean to sound cruel, but the money which you would be putting in, you need honest opinions!

[High Wing Drifter]

My guess is that the airlines see them as a training risk for type ratings.
Not really the point I was making but I would be intersted to know just what is so difficult about a type rating. What is it that us gummunchers can't get to grips with :rolleyes:

[Googlewac]

Why would you be seen as an expensive training risk when (for alot of airlines) it's you forking out for the type rating training?

At 40+ you've proved yourself throughout your CPL training, your ATPL exams + work experience and then your type rating. You then have 20 working years you can offer an airline. Add to this the considerable life experience you've built up and I'm at a lost to follow the logic of the airline recruiters.

Just curious to know whether a twentysomething would spend the rest of his/her working life with same airline anyway. I know a few who've got into a legacy carrier then gone o/s for more money!

[RVR800]

FWF has it right - the older you are; the longer it takes to achieve a PPL IR etc; if it was your airline you would take older guys; but only if you had to; that 'had to' situation generally doesn't exist as there are plenty of young chaps out there.....all right there are exceptions but its more risky for the pilot and the airline as age advances....

[High Wing Drifter]

Rather than running off the usual platitudes, I would still like to know from the Type Rated amongst us (like RVR800 and FWF) what it is that the frail and dithery ones will find so difficult :hmm:

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

No, High Wing Drifter, I don't hold a type rating. However, my understanding of the first TR is that this is where you are going to learn a huge amount in a short period of time. From my experience as an FI this is where older blokes tend to struggle. I posted the same answer on a similar thread some time ago and another member had this to say:-

Couldn't argue with you there at all. Whilst the ground school stuff went into the old grey cells quick enough, the flying was tough. It's all relative but I can well remember the youngsters on my course being shown something just once and once they got it, they remembered it for good.

A doctor I know confirms this is fact. Up to a certain age an individual can take something in, sleep on it and when they wake up it's still there, often even clearer. Beyond that age (whatever it is for the individual), a good deal of it can be lost the following morning.

Bit of a b@stard, but that's life.


The whole self sponsored type rating thing may change things a little bit. If you mess up it's you who pays so perhaps this will favour older pilots in getting a break. As far as I'm concerned though, if you are training over 40 then I would say that the risk of needing loads of extra training increases and the chance of a good job at the end decreases. If anyone wants to crucify me for saying this, I don't blame you.

[High Wing Drifter]

So that's my anecdotal evidence of one (me) who says oldies (OK I haven't crossed the 40 barrier yet) can easily stay a steady course in training versus your anecdotal evidence of 1 person who claims to have struggled to keep up. I have to admit that most of the sponsored 'youngsters' I have met are sharp, but no more so than somebody who has held down an intellectually demanding career for the last 20 years.

What it comes down to it, you as an individual are either personally suitable or unsuitable for the job. There are plenty of young 'uns out there who aren't suitable candidates, but if there are relatively fewer oldies going for the same job it is very easy to group the unsuccessful minority of oldies in to their sub-category of failure. Gestalt theory? There were references to this during my training!

[soneraisam]

Thanks for all your inputs. The minutiae of the young v old in training are very interesting, but I just need to know if it is still possible at my age. I know that I am not going to be an airlines ideal recruit. I know the playing field may not be level. I don't mind looking harder and a bit further a field - China sounds great! Nobody has said NO DON'T DO IT, YOU WILL DEFINATELY NOT GET A JOB BECAUSE..... That being the case, that's good enough for me.

Now I just need to decide where and which route. It is a dilemma; I think because of my age an integrated course sounds like a good idea, but the reduced price tag of modular is attractive (although at the end of the day it may be not that much cheaper). Loss of earning during the training is a big factor for me.

I will be able to talk to airlines and FTOs on the 19th at the Flyer exhibition.

Many thanks,

Sam.

[YYZ]

You could do a modular course full time, therefore taking advantage of the modular price tag but with the integrated time scale?

YYZ

[Blackpoolwarrior]

Sam,

I am in my mid 30s and I was going integrated (still got selection booked) until the last minute when I took on board comments from Wee Weasley Welshman and Scroggs and Co. and thought about it 'Will I really go into a job (regardless of jet or anything else) after graduation after having parted with SEVENTY BIG ONES??? OR after pricing it all out on Excel lol as WWW and others have suggested you can do it for about 40K, see the world, have a last adventure in your life, have some variety and maybe JUST maybe get some kind of a job, WHATEVER it may be.....the fact is that modular is an appealing way to do it rather than be institutionalised at your age, you might have a great road trip!!!! The key is, you have some money left over for OPTIONS afterwards- you will have options!! After 70 or 80K, options on me are running out..... but maybe you're loaded, I dunno!!! Go for it anyway..... I'm starting at OAT modular (Just for the groundschool) in Jan, their books (or maybe Jeppesens are good)......

BTW those figures include an FI rating with night PLUS a treat-yourself-closest-I-might-get-to-a-jet-MCC (I know WWW will kill me for this!!!)- at Jetlinx LOL

GOOD LUCK!!! :ok:

[jam123]

Sam

If you are definately going down this road then I think if you can afford it you should go intergrated. There is a lot to be said about intergrated and i think at you're age it COULD make all the difference.

Personally, I think the extra 20k is justified, but that is purely my opinion.

I know what i am going to do.

Best of luck

Jam

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Good thread because it fits me too.

At 47 I am embarking upon my PPL with a view to progressing further if possible. (modular though)

I realised that an airline would not view me favourably but its the flying that I want, not the kudos of walking through passengers on my way to the plane.

Any flying would be good and a freight/taxi job on turbo props or otherwise would be welcome.

Will I get a job at the end of this?..who knows but if I give up at the first hurdle I never will.

Like has been said, if nothing else, I am going to enjoy the ride and if I end up broke with no job, well, nobody can take anything with them when we reach the end of the runway for the last time but I will have had a damned good time while it lasted.

Shane.

[High Wing Drifter]

May I suggest that before you do anything, get booked onto a GAPAN assessment day (www.gapan.org). They put you through a subset of the RAF apptitude tests and apparently, the results are taken seriously by most airlines (so I'm told - Scroggs?). Malgus certainly provided a fast track route on their scheme for those with a "High" or "High Average".

The bonus is a half-hour de-brief with an experienced commercial pilot.

[Robert Langdon]

Hi soneraisam

Started training in my mid-thirties but still kept my boring office job. Now 39 and flying t/p and loving every minute of it (still applying for jets though :rolleyes: ). Got knocked back by CX cause I didnt meet the age/experience requirement stated on their website but have interviews with UK operators coming up.

Got my first job because I WAS older. Operator wanted someone he thought would hang around more than a year (what I've done).

RL

[gdnhalley]

Hi Soneraisam
I held a PPL for a few years, but then did a modular fATPL. Overall in 13 months part time(14 weeks away from work over the 13 months).
I'm sure if you do modular full time and are happy to work hard at it, you can do it as fast if not faster than integrated.
Started with bgs when I was 43 finished at 44, employed on T/P at 45.
PM for more info.
good luck
gdn