Movers technical knowledge and 747 damage photos.

[pigsinspace]

Just read the comments from thses guys.

http://www.rafmovs.com/cpgn/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=403#8302

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1101404/FFD01.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1101404/FFD02.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1101404/FFD03.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1101404/FFD04.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1101404/FFD05.jpg

[monkeybumhead]

They almost made it to the door, f**kwits!!!
Still I suppose it gave the Atlanta engineers something other than engine snags to work.:p :p

[dirtygc]

Missed out on my diving trip to Asi coz of the mover muppets:(

[360BakTrak]

"My car has got more dents than that...." What a numpty!:ugh:

[DEL Mode]

I was expecting "dont know what the problem is, he's got another three pitot probes to do the job"

[rej]

It takes a very 'special' type to be a mover.

I remember one incident (of many) when an aircraft was being loaded on disused-centre, weather conditions excellent, (no rain, no fog, unltd viz). Two vehicles, an Atlas Loader and a large forklift truck operating on the airfield loading the aircraft. Vehicles driving in opposite directions, closing speed must have been 30mph max, thinking time hours, pavement wide enough to take a C17. You've guessed it - the 2 collided head on !! FOD, oil, etc all over the place and the area closed for hours for photos, clean up etc.

What a bunch of idiots.

Why oh why do they let them (movers) anywhere an airfield or trust them with anything that moves ?!!!

[pigsinspace]

smaller pictures hope these remain on the web.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/pigsinspace/FFD05a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/pigsinspace/FFD03a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/pigsinspace/FFD04a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/pigsinspace/747a.jpg

[monkeybumhead]

The sad thing is it isn't the first, and it won't be the last frame the collective retard element bend. Is it no wonder they are disliked by most who have to fix or drive aeroplanes.

[Safety_Helmut]

Many years ago, a visiting EP3 Orion was operating out of sunny Wyton. Now the EP3 had a snag, that if I recall needed some serious attention to one of the engines. Arrangements were made to allow the visitors the use of a hangar normally home to the mighty 'rod. Anyway, come the time to move the aircraft, the tug turned up from MT with a couple of spare MT drivers along for the show. The visitors, not realising who these guys were, hooked up to the tug and allowed them to start moving the aircraft to the shed. The spare drivers were controlling the move and watching the wingtips. Ah I can hear you say, what a recipe for disaster - not far off. Well fortunately for the visitors, some of the RAF groundcrew realised what was happening and managed to prevent the idiots taking the top couple of feet off the tail as it came into the hangar.

Not Movers I know, but not far off.

Safety_Helmut

[Mobile Muppet]

Ho ho,

Well off we go again....

Perhaps the Fairford prang highlighted the strain on the AT fleet we currently feel and there are no excuses for aircraft incidents full stop. But accidents do happen.

Well then perhaps recent ALM/winching accident or the C130 heavy landing or the teccie scissor lift incident proves that were all fallible.

No blame should be thrown around without looking at the world around us. Were all feeling the strain and bitching about it does no favour to the RAF as a whole other than those with grievances against others !

MM

[16 blades]

It's not as if it's an isolated incident, MM. Movers have bent far more AT aircraft than aircrew ever have.

Movers' technical knowledge

must be why they're on the lowest pay band then, with this 'wealth' of 'technical' knowledge...

16B

[Grounded So Stack]

MM,
Let's not take the Open & Honest No Blame culture too far here. Yes, accidents do happen - but where most Movements are concerned they are anything but. Maybe it is due to overstretch, but if so there comes a time when someone on that side of the house has to have the balls to say " Enough's enough!"

If any aircrew performed as consitently badly as the Movements trade does, we'd be dead in a week.
That's the difference. We learn from our mistakes because the personal consequences are somewhat more pronounced.

GSS :*

[Mobile Muppet]

16B

If you have read my previous posts you will know I'm not one to bite (much), and I will carry on the tradition. Personally I'm not one to dwell on the lack of professionalism from others or the lack of service expected as i have experienced the worse from aircrew down the lowest microbe (mover) in the RAF. Mover's may well be the bane of many a tradesman but just remember that yours and others childish whinges do nothing more in the "bigger picture" of things than make you look a childish prat and drive an already big wedge between the few of us who do our best to provide the service that you expected from us..

MM

[unclenelli]

How long do we have to wait for the 2MT v BZN Terminal photos

OK so it was 2MT that did it, but blame the muppets anyway as they should have been there to marshall the driver in - oh, hang on a minute, they were there - and they were marshalling the driver in!!!!!

[Mobile Muppet]

GSS

Fair enough post mate, but lets not all tarnish everyone with the same brush. Thats all I ask.

MM

[16 blades]

If movers stopped running into aircraft and causing untold grief to others by doing so, you would not be tarred in this fashion. Like I said, it's not exactly an isolated incident, is it?? I have personally witnessed, on many occasions, movers driving like complete cocky tw@ts around aircraft. It is simply stupidity and carelessness. It is telling that nobody was surprised when they learned of this incident.

If we aircrew displayed such negligence we would not remain in a flying appointment very long. Do not try to defend the indefensible - you would serve your cause much better by putting your own house in order.

16B

[buoy15]

Who on earth is that Gee Ess nobber on the movers thread?

Should never be allowed out of his ward without medication and supervision, let alone near aircraft and aircrew

[Dan Winterland]

"But just looks like a little bump. My car has bigger dents".

A little bump. Well muppet, thet pitot probe is probably worth more than your car and - oh wait. That looks like a pressure hull tear - and it's close to a critical area of hull strength.. Now that's really big money!

What worries me is that the guy who made this statement has little knowlegde of aircraft operations. But worse, he may be the type of guy who wouldn't report his own mistakes.

[Mobile Muppet]

If you feel so strongly about the professionalism of our trade why don't you have the balls to stand up and do something about it rather than whinge like spoilt brats on the internet ! Oh I thought not ...

I tell you, if you lot seem to hate us so much why spend all your time trawling the movs website ! Must have too much time on your hands.. Me I'm too busy to spend all day inflating my ego !

Have a nice day... C U all in Afghanistan

MM

P.S I know I bit.......hook line sinker ;-)

[Echo 5]

I note that most of the posters on this thread have neglected to give us a hint in their profiles as to their occupations. MM is a Mover (obviously) and 16B an Albert pilot ( I believe) so he at least is entitled to have a go at Movers if he feels the need.

Then we have a couple of ATCO guys ( one with a PPL no less ). Well they really do know whats happening all around them don't they. Yeah right.

A couple of dodgy engineers of no specific persuasion though one of them may be a submariner.....jeezus !!

As for the rest...........they just seem to want to kick a guy when he's down just for the sake of it.

I'm sure that the poor unfortunate who was involved in this incident feels really good about it and really appreciates all the attention that you lot are giving him.

Get a life !!

[DEL Mode]

Echo 5,

And your profile says what about you.

Are you Kermit?

It's a rumour network.

Maybe you want people to have Pilot (111 Sqn) against their profiles, so when they post about aircraft crashing they can be hung, drawn and quartered.

BTW

If damage occurs to an aircraft, which affects the structural integrity of the pressure cabin (or any other component), the impact should be understood by the ground trades.

In the last couple of weeks we have seen a Merlin dig in and carry on with a flying display and a B747 with structural damage. I think this is quite a worrying trend. Showing signs of ignorance of the end results does not reflect on the trades and organisation as a whole.

[mdh]

I really dont know why you HATE us movers so much!!!
We are massively overstretched at FFD and work extremely hard to make sure the a/c get out on time.
I would love to see one of you spend a shift with us at FFD and see the sort of crap we have to put up with and the hard work that we put in.
Perhaps we shouldnt be too quick to meet outbound a/c times when we dont have the proper resources/manpower to safely do so... even if this means delaying a/c.
It is lovely to see that our efforts are appreciated by our companions in the RAF.
Thanks.

[Grounded So Stack]

Mdh,
Perhaps we shouldnt be too quick to meet outbound a/c times when we dont have the proper resources/manpower to safely do so...
Indeed, an unenviable task - but the honour and professionalism is not always in pushing on regardless. A true professional knows his limits and acts before the numerous incidents we've seen from your trade. No, it may not always be the easy decision, but one that often must be made.

Ever heard the story of a FJ Sqn Cdr in the 90's who, on taking over his Sqn, was so shocked at the state of disrepair that he declared it non-operational for spares (in good Bader style!). Something was soon done then. Oh, and he's now an Air Cdre ;)

Ever heard of an 'HFOR' - if every Mover wrote one every time something happened as result of overstretch, something might, just might be done. :ok:

Click the Pic for some healthy advice....http://www.mod.uk/img/dasc/poster_cat_sml/200213_small.jpg (http://www.mod.uk/img/dasc/poster_cat_lge/200213.jpg)

GSS :ok:

[rej]

Echo 5

Then we have a couple of ATCO guys ( one with a PPL no less ). Well they really do know whats happening all around them don't they. Yeah right.

Yes I might also have taken the bait but actually, if it happens on an airfield, which most of the incidents do, then we do have a good grip on what is going on. After all, we have a part to play in airfield ops as well you know.

It sounds like that bag of King Edwards you carry around your neck seem to be producing a number of large chips.

[Echo 5]

Is anyone else having trouble reading the posts on this thread or is everyone having to track from left to right and back again. Perhaps it's something to do with the opening post and outsized photographs when a simple link to rafmovs.com would have sufficed.


DEL Mode

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Echo 5,

And your profile says what about you.

Are you Kermit?
............................................................ ..........................................

Of course I'm not Kermit you plank cos he is still working and as my profile clearly states I am a retired Muppet.


rej ,

"Yes I might also have taken the bait"

Thought you had actually. Who was the other one, DEL Mode ?

and

" It sounds like that bag of King Edwards you carry around your neck seem to be producing a number of large chips. "

Sorry...........you've lost me there.

:confused:

[KPax]

I dont know REJ I think the guy sounds perfectly balanced, a chip on either shoulder.

[Echo 5]

KPax,

Can't say for sure but you sound very like an ATCO to me.

Worked with a lady a few years ago, her husband was a FCO. Having a drink in the pub one night and I asked him about the difference between a FCO and an ATCO. He was a really decent chap and he told me that it was the responsibility of an ATCO to keep aircraft apart whereas a FCO tried to bring the aircraft together.

" Of course " he advised " in real life the exact opposite usually happens ".

Is this still the case or have things improved ?

PS: Where do you actually live.....Scotland or Wiltshire ?

Oops the left/right thing seems to be sorted, maybe it was my monitor :)

Edited to correct grammatical error. ( See.......we all make mistakes )

[12 twists per inch]

Just to add, not long after the 747 debacle, a muppet drove into a Ten and b*ggered off. The lineys on finding said mangled airframe set about finding that movements proffesional - which they did. After vigorous deniles and application of thumbscrews (not by the lineys) he sang like a canary. And he was a grown up muppet not one of the soldier ants.

[November4]

Any truth in a rumour about an RAFP out doing a bit of plane spotting at Fairflood.....

didn't spot a Houchin though :} :}

[The Rocket]

Steady on boys,


This is turning into something other than a lively debate!

We've all experienced instances of aircraft being damaged by people other than the Two Winged Master race;) :ok: ,

But this isn't the place to crib about it, and attatch it to the UKMAMS trade.

Now, I never EVER thought I'd be in defence of the Muppets, but I don't think that all this "Yes, I remember a GEF Landrover reversing into my tailplane" is really fair on the Movers.

I will not try and defend that idiot who proclaims that the 747 dink is "smaller than the dent on my car" however:suspect:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Always impressed that no matter how damning the evidence the "usual suspects" try to adopt a "was'nt us" attitude:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[The Rocket]

I hope you're not going on about me again Mr Wilts:p :p

[monkeybumhead]

I can recall a couple of incidents, one in the 90s and the other a bit more recentlyinvolving muppets. Both showing a lack of common sense.

The first - A nice yellow baggage tractor (chuckle bus) went walkies all on it's own (Left in gear with the handbrake off) from the terminal at Lyneham across the pan towards a couple of unsuspecting hercs. It took a couple of quick thinking techies in a land rover to intercept and return it to it's mover keepers.

The second - Herc sat on the pan, techies indulging in a 4 engine high power ground run, involving taking the donks upto take off power. Mover decides to drive behind aircraft with vehicle depositing loose articles all over the place.

Just a couple of many mistakes made over the years. Yes we techies make mistakes, as do the aircrew, but at least we own up at the time and don't try to hide them.

[Jimlad]

Dumb question time guys - having suffered on the air atlanta jumbo and enjoyed South Cerney for far too long due to its breaking down, we were told it was due to the A/T fleet being overworked.

Given this and given that MOD is presumably spending a fortune on things like 747 charter, why hasn't the RAF bought one or two 747's 2nd hand and painted them RAF colours for use on routine transport flights, leaving the Tristars for more specialist jobs?

I'm sure theres a very good reason or a simple one (money) but would welcome any answers.

[The Rocket]

Not a bad idea in theory Jimlad, but try to bear in mind the cost and time needed to train crews to fly the 747's, engineers to fix the 747's, spares to maintain them etc.....etc.......

[Blakey875]

Sorry Guys but have seen this site quite late. 16 blades especially is talking HorliXX. Yes the Movers do strike an aircraft now and then but compare it to the civvie fleet - you will be surprsed. But without getting personal we have never killed anyone?

On the other hand other trades have had incidents with aircraft trying to depart with ground power still attatched etc... We are all Human.

However, blades, don't start a peeing contest otherwise we will have to start naming names - South Cerney beheading for starters????

[Blacksheep]

"But just looks like a little bump. My car has bigger dents".It would worry me, letting someone who thinks that a little dent does no harm loose around an aircraft.

Those little paint markings you can see in the photos indicate the four corners of the 'Reduced Vertical Separation Minima' (RVSM) sensitive area. Flush repair is no good - nothing less than total replacement of the damaged skin panel and the underlying support structure. A six figure sum at least, in GBP.

Nice little earner for the MRO that gets the job, though.

[16 blades]

But without getting personal we have never killed anyone

Well, Blakey, I guess that makes it all OK then.

Difference is, when WE f**k up, we almost always admit it and apologise, where appropriate. Interesting how all the movers can come up with is pointing the finger at others instead.

I'll say it again - lowest pay band, for a bloody good reason.

16B

[dionysius]

Quite right Beags, knee jerk reaction to all malicious posts.

[BEagle]

It was pretty stupid, I entirely agree. And totally irrelevant to this thread.

But even more stupid was the idiot trio of cargo hangar inmates I once saw spinning around in a tractor on the icy manoeuvring area. Such a jolly wheeze. So I phoned the DAMO and offered him the choice - you stop these stupid buggers from such idiocy or I will charge the lot of them.

He decided to take the former option.

I was also witness to a childish 'game' being played by a certain group in an airside vehicle. They were competing to see who could get it up to the highest speed and brake to a halt before hitting the wall of 216. I don't know to which trade group they belonged; however, I suspect that on that occasion they weren't movers.

The moral is obvious - do not drive like an idiot on the manoeuvring area, particularly near aircraft, use some commonsense!

[Green Flash]

Fit speed limiters to airside vehicles?:confused:

[rej]

Green Flash

Good idea but ..... I'm sure that you can do sufficient damage to ground an aircraft with a low speed prang. The problem is with lunatic drivers with no common sense or no ablility to use the common sense that they do have.

[zippy1983]

Everyone makes mistakes, some more costly than others but we're all human (unless your a fast jet pilot, then your god :p )

Its just another statistic in a big book somewhere and I'm sure the chap feels bad enough without everyone on the forum berating him.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Your're quite right Zippy, I thought I had made an error once but I was wrong.

Anyway, back to the subject of berating movers, it is fun after all, particularly when they bite so readily.

If they had been good, they would have been aircrew and have a right to post on this forum..........discuss

;)

DS

[Green Flash]

Rej.

I take your point. I suppose if you are bent on bending something then 10 mph or 30 is probably irrelavent. OK, maybe more supervisors then? Dunno.

[rej]

Green Flash

Right again, but who would be supervising the junior movers?

..... senior movers

oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooo:{ :rolleyes:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Whilst it would be an ALM nightmare the C17's seem to have it squared away. My understanding is that the "baggage crushers" are not allowed near the beast unless under the supervision of an ALM:ok:

More work maybe for us proffesionals but would stop the numpties bashing the airframes, with the added bonus that the aircraft would be loaded correctly instead of the usual bag o sh1te we get presented with :p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[The Helpful Stacker]

Clumsy movers, its what speed tape and tywraps were invented for.

;)

[BEagle]

One thing which always used to concern me was the way the forward hold door was often opened so quickly after the aircraft was on the chocks.

Why?

Because there was no-one to check that some crook hadn't put something on the aircraft during loading, then tipped off his mate to be there to collect it on arrival.

So if ever the door was opened after the air engineer had checked that it was shut at the departure aerodrome, I would stop what we were doing there and then and have whoever had opened it investigated.

[Logistics Loader]

ABIW,

Why does the Ice Cream Sqdn need SNCO Mover involvment if the ALM has sole responsibilty for the frame???
The Flying club didnt want Movers on the C17 initially, until they realised that after chox in, the ALM wouldn't be on the same fun bus to the hotel with his fellow crewmates...because he would have to supervise offload/onload...!!!

Beagle,
Fwd hold door was opened more often than not so quickly, because of the amount of VIP's that were often carried...esp on the old Dulles sched...or even Comp Pax bags..!!

But forgive me, i really think it was to assist the AIRCREW in getting their overweight crew bags including duty free off first. After all it's your train we play with....thought the idea was to look after the customer,, ie the PASSENGERS, not you !! because you have had an oh so busy 4 day route....!!!

I recall a V wing crew at a secret Lincs base getting caught by customs for doing what you say....!!!
There are way's and means to get around any system..!!!

Also, in my time, i cant ever recall the Air Eng checking the holds prior to departure, my job as team leader was to notify the ALM the holds were ready to be checked....he/she then did a check !!!

[monkeybumhead]

Even with the loadmattress supervising the muppets it still doesn't stop the retards from damaging the C17. Just ask the crew who took one to HM Open Prison MPA. Atlas type thing lowered onto the ramp and nice skin tear ensued. It seems you ain't safe, no matter how much supervision you give these fools.:hmm:

[Logistics Loader]

answered the question for us all....

loadmattress supervising !!!!

[RileyDove]

Sixteen Blades - I am afraid that your comments of behaviour and accountability don't really match past conduct. There are a great number of instances where aircraft have been damaged and aircrew killed for no apparant reason. Your simply very wide of the mark to suggest that aircrew always come clean - sometimes they do but often there is just a smoking hole.
As for the other comments - we are indeed spending large sums of money on charter aircraft - however rather than buying
747's - we should buy more Tristar's to bridge the gap with the long term intention that some fly to St Athan for spares reclaim.
The cost of a secondhand Tristar is somewhere near $3 million -
far cheaper to do this than keep the RAF's contribution to global
warming - the Ten flying for much longer !

[Hangin' on]

Wet lease ACMI rates for 747s are 5,200 US per block hour plus fuel, which the RAF could not get within a country mile of. :rolleyes:

[bitsleftover]

LL I think you will find that the ALM on C17s DOES stay with the aircraft to unload, it may not be the flying loadie but there will be a loadie no matter what. So Im afraid your reason for being in this case isnt so.

oh and so far we have no loadmatresses!

[16 blades]

Sixteen Blades - I am afraid that your comments of behaviour and accountability don't really match past conduct. There are a great number of instances where aircraft have been damaged and aircrew killed for no apparant reason. Your simply very wide of the mark to suggest that aircrew always come clean - sometimes they do but often there is just a smoking hole.

And exactly how COULD they 'come clean' if they were dead? An utterly silly comment.

16B

[pigsinspace]

You will find that they are now WSOP (Cmn).

You try and tell any Loadmaster/matress or Air eng that they are a WSOP.


my advice......


Stand back and watch the Teddies fly

[RileyDove]

Sixteen Blades - Your comments are that other trade groups are of some lesser importance because they occasionally bend things. However aircrew often bend things and kill themselves in the process. Often if you read the reports there are clear signs that the crews have deviated from common sense on more than one occasion in the past . This is about the process of loading and unloading aircraft which should be a safe business - accidents do happen and should be avoided by all means - you are however doing yourself no favours by thinking you are anything better than any of the other citizens that inhabit planet earth - or do you never make any errors?

[Grounded So Stack]

Riley,
I see where you sentiments come from, but remember something - Flying is an inherently risky activity, for many reasons of which human factors are included.
However, putting a box into a hole without damaging said hole should not be :ugh: (for a sensible human being)aircrew often bend things and kill themselves
Oh, Really? Maybe no-one's noticed then 'cos that's not something I 'often' do during a normal day's work, nor anyone I know, for that matter.

GSS

[lineslime]

Aeroplanes are often complicated beasts which are made up of many moving or stressed parts which have a tendancy to fail when least expected/wanted. As such failure or damage to said collection of items is expected with use, often aided by our feathered friends not getting out of the way. Operator error also accounts for many failures/much damage, but we all should be able to learn from our mistakes. What can't be excused is some dullard ramming a set of steps into the side of something the size of a 747, it's not as if you can't see the damn thing and the doors are quite clearly noticable.
What is the excuse offered for this latest in a long line of muppet cock ups? "It suddenly jumped back 15 feet and then lurched sideways!":mad:

I think the description "movements" says quite enough about the trade if you ask me. :E

[Mr C Hinecap]

Woahhhhhhhh - hold up there kids. Another wee-wee contest with nothing more than wet shoes and someone not realising he has a small willy.

There are Mover-bashing threads elsewhere. Let me be slightly more serious for a mo here - sorry:
If any of the 'holier-than-thou' crowd here has a single constructive input here, please raise it - here, with the Flight Safety Officer at their Unit, with the Movers. Anything to help prevent accidents like this really. Go on - I dare you to come up with something. Try it in a non-confrontational way (if you can). I'd certainly appreciate any input from the other pairs of eyes on the pan.

That is all.

[rolandpull]

Can we all go back a bit further and find out why we are having to charter? Many times have I noticed AT frames parked all over a little corner of West Oxon and still seen CIVAIR hopping over the fence.

I recently overheard that VC10 and Tristar tasks are often (far from allways) cancelled because of a lack of crew, and by crew I mean Cabin Crew (CC). So apparently VC10 CC cannot op Tristar and vicky verky. Is this true? The very same RAF that banters around that good old phrase er...Flexibility is the key to air power!

Surely when it comes down to the flight safety aspects of both types, a door is a door (Tristar is more complex, yes) and the fire extinguishers work on the same types of fire irrespective of acft type, and the first aid kits generally work as advertised irrespective of acft type, an oven fire is an oven fire (whoops there goes the crew meals) and the manual cabin crew briefing about how to put on a life jacket/O2 mask and the doors can be found here here and there...................

A few years ago I handed my blue suit in and moved into various shades of charcoal ones. My current airline operates Boeing/Airbus narrow bodies, Boeing/Airbus wide bodies. The cabin crew are trained to work in upto three types of cabin class on 5 different aircraft types. All regulated by JAR , CAA and FAA. Customer service levels are Q.A'd by an external independant agency.

My airline before that operated three types (6 varients) with common trained CC.

Commercially, airlines have learnt that you have to maximise your resources to achieve the best job at the best price. I really believe that for all the budget controls put into place over the last few years, nobody is looking at the Big Picture. Where are the long term planners within a transient blue workforce? The civvy suits with MOD accreditation react to whats put before them by the very same transient blue suit staffer's every 2-2.5 years. I suppose not being in a competitive environment means that really you have nothing to benchmark your self against.

No stability, no future from where I look over the fence. Oh, and the sooner NATO drops this acft sharing B~ll~cks deal the better. Is it right that the RAF cancels MOD tasks because we have to give back flying hours to nations that have had to cancel tasks of its own and sub charter other NATO AT ? You will forever be in each others pockets!

[Logistics Loader]

It was not my intention to be sexist against female ALM's..only trying to lighten the banter a bit...I met loads of ALM's of both sexes and always attempted to get on with them all...

Some on this group are definitaly too uptight all the time...!!!

747,
I award you my prize pratt of the year award, as you clearly have such great crystal balls as to be able to tell i'm not up to speed on current events...!!!! I was certainly aware of the title change to WSOP !!!

However, i was trained under old school methods, and so will always call them ALM's !!! As i think most of them agreed during my final time at a secret Wilts airbase, where in the back of an Albert would you define any item of freight or baggage as Weapons Systems ??? Nowwhere !!! Unless the aircraft is carrying lots of flash n bang stuff, but then this is still FREIGHT...Not Weapons Systems as far as the terminology would have it...!!!!

[Logistics Loader]

Even the title itself is sexist...

WSOP (Cmn) CREW MAN !!!!

http://www.rafcareers.com/jobs/job_files/jobfile_weapon_systems_operator_crewman.cfm (http://)

[RAYVON]

We may not have technical knowledge, i grant you this. We do not to the best of my knowledge need any knowledge of aircraft systems other than ground power and ramps/doors.

To have an ALM there for all loading/unloading is going to increase over stretch in your trade, but igrant you this having a lunchmaster out there at 2 in the morning would be nice as we could have a brew while he decides how best to load the frame.

Just an after thought, if the ALMs load the aircraft who is going to load the DAC or Bang? Seeing as you are not qualified to do so!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Rayon,

"Just an after thought, if the ALMs load the aircraft who is going to load the DAC or Bang? Seeing as you are not qualified to do so!"

Thankfully the next issue of the JSP 335 is going to squash that little "movements empire building" ploy:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[monkeybumhead]

The good thing with having a loadie around when the muppets are crawling around the poor vulnerable aeroplane is that there will be a witness to the hole put in said aeroplane by muppets motor vehicle. Seeing as the loadie will be flying with the aeroplane then where does overstretch come into this? It may effect crew duty time, but unless muppets render aeroplane u/s then I don't see a problem.

Oh, if you want a brew whilst awaiting the loadies final loading plan then I suggest you take out a thermos. They ain't there to feed and water you on the ground, or can't you be trusted with hot water?

[Combine Harvester]

Firstly,

monkeybumhead,

You have answered your own question:

'Seeing as the loadie will be flying with the aeroplane then where does overstretch come into this? It may effect crew duty time, but unless muppets render aeroplane u/s then I don't see a problem.'

The loading loadie will not, necessarily, operate on the flight given crew duty implications. Therefore, you need more loadies on the sqn or suffer overstretch - simple really.

Secondly,

Mr Hinecap has summed the issue up quite nicely. Banter is one thing, and is welcomed, but vitriolic outbursts with no factual foundation are pointless and, frankly, tell us more about the individual posting the comment rather than the subject.

[RAYVON]

We shouldnt have to many loadies on the A/C when we load, the way we are going on we may dink them too!

Then we wouldnt move a thing about, the A/C would all be serviceable, but no one to fly with them.

I think accidents will always happen whether or not an ALM supervises or not, we are all fallible, just our mistakes get noticed more, esp a great big hole in the side or an aircraft.

We as a trade are aware accidents happen and as a result more training is given. All accidents are investigated and appropriate action taken when needed.

Yes we should keep this light-hearted as we are all in this together doing evermore tasking with less resources.

Any spelling mistakes are down to the facti should have tried harder at school!

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember when they were AQMs.

and people still hated movers.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Attention ALM/WSOP (Cmn) and Movers, quit your bitching or we'll get you back working in SCAF.

Don't forget you were all Suppliers once upon a time....

;)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"Don't forget you were all Suppliers once upon a time...."

What utter utter b@@locks:} I never have and never will be a feckin blanket stacker................ I have no cse, o levels, gcse, a levels etc but I am still far to over qualified to be a hoarder :rolleyes:

I know of plenty of ground trades who have remustered to Aircrew but know of none that would try to swap to muppet/scuffer.......any thoughts on why:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[monkeybumhead]

One can only assume then that the movements trade was created to accomodate the intelectually challenged stackers then.

[Mobile Muppet]

Ah Wilts,

You really do have some deep personal issues you need to discuss with someone. You may have no formal qualifications but it also seems you have no respect for anyone other than yourself. ;-)

MM

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Loads of respect for plenty of others but complete lack of tolerance for idiots MM...................but as you are a muppet your lack of awareness is fully expected:p

"One can only assume then that the movements trade was created to accomodate the intelectually challenged stackers then."

Isn't it a supply trade pre requisite then??



all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Mobile Muppet]

Does your lack of tolerance stretch as far as fellow idiot aircrew wilts..

I'm just curious...... Perhaps those in glass house should not throw stones....

MM

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Idiot aircrew is a bit like intelligence officer........2 words that just don't go together, do get a grip of yourself MM and stop behaving like a schoolgirl, you old tart:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes re "df" alcohol induced

[Mobile Muppet]

Wilts,

Perhaps you should look out from your own little fluffy world and realise that in fact YOUR constant moaning, bitching and trawling is making you and the others on this thread look like little schoolgirls.

Considering your suppose to be "professionals" you all act like little spoilt brats, quickly logging on to a public forum to air your petty hates and grudges.

You might have your bite Wilts, but at least I’ll log of safe in the knowledge I’m not a tit . YOU are the idiot aircrew I mentioned before.

Movers might bring alot of it on themselves but its a shame you and others have not got the balls to address your issues in an appropriate place rather than on the web….

Rant over

MM

[Echo 5]

Wilts,

" intelligence officer........2 words that just don't go together "

You've posted some crackers in the past but that has got to be your best ever. Well done old boy.:D

[Mr C Hinecap]

*Yawn* Did some people say something?

Always_Bleating - please, just to shock us, try to come up with somethng constructive. Your evident wisdom and experience in all matters of aviation (especially the roles of others) should be brought to bear upon this weighty subject.
I'm sure I speak for the rest of the bagmashing community when I say I live in hope of a pearl of your wisdom gracing us and improving our lives en route to our enlightenment.

Anyway - any of the rest out there got a constructive point? I personally think the Movers worst enemy is their positive attitude - the just do it mentality. It is a superlative trait found across the RAF, but I see it manifesting itself as a willingness to work around overstretch in an area that should not be that overstretched. Just to keep this from being a rant or personal attack you see.

[The Rocket]

MM,

You moan about ABIW moaning and bitching

realise that in fact YOUR constant moaning, bitching and trawling is making you and the others on this thread look like little schoolgirls.

Then in the same post.....

YOU are the idiot aircrew I mentioned before.

As you quite rightly said in a previous post, "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones":rolleyes:

Now, can we all pull our trousers back up please:ok:

[Mobile Muppet]

Rocket,

If you read the previous posts you will see in what context the "idiot aircrew" statement was made. It was not a generalization just furthering to ABIW post about not tolerating idiot movers !

Were all guilty of making mistakes, just some more than others.

MM

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

To all our learned Muppet Friends;

I'll disagree with ABIW on this one..

We *DO* have Idiot Aircrew... Thankfully our last one has just left the Sqn recently and got a job with BA!!! (Poor Sods!!)

However, you guys need to be a bit more honest/ up-front & generally matey with the crews you fly with in order to up the respect levels.

You don't see the Scuffers (with or without notebooks), GEs/SVCs/ Role Equippers or Supernumary Tarts disappearing off on the nite-stop to drink with their mates...It's a crew thing...Don't you Know!!!

You guys are your own worst enemy, you just don't integrate....So, what are we all left to think......

Do you want to join the big, grey (or green) party bus??? OR do you want to do your own thing???

Regards to Most...SFS

PS...We still hate Scuffers too!!!

[Mobile Muppet]

J bloke,

Well I have to agree with all your points...

We do seem to always do our own thing when away with the crew. I for one have been a culprit on many a route but 90% of the time I will happily chat or buy the loadie or GE a drink or three..

The reasons for it are long and boring (like my posts) but I believe a lot of the youngsters we have on mobile now need to be educated to integrate more with the crews when away. The older more decrepit movers are too set in their ways and will never be turned !

Well despite my previous ramblings I look forward to going away with any crews (even with Wilts or the shiney fleet)....

MM

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Hi MM;

I'm actually quite glad we agree.

Despite the odd trade bungle, I've had nary a word against the Movers..but as you say...

Old habits die hard...and that is a two way street.

I'm quite matey with some of your trade... and openly hostile to others...but that is purely personal experiences.

There are loads of Movers who come and say Hi when I turn up in Akro/Gib/Basra...etc... but there are others I don't know.

Get all your young guys to come for a jug with the crew in 'FlipSide' next time in Gander... or a beer in Tommy's in Akro ..blah, blah... instead of hiding away.

It might break down some barriers... If you can't sort it, then perhaps you know someone who can...

Next...I'll be getting out of the ALM union... but before that...educate some of the morons on the RAFMovs Forum ..pleeez!!!

Regards...SFS

Memo to ABIW...No, I'm not getting soft either!!!:ok:

[snaggletooth]

Despite the best & tightest precautions folks - mistakes happen. That's part of life's rich tapestry. So all we can do is learn from them when they do happen & try to prevent them next time.

We are all on the same team remember.

Hands up anyone who's never cocked up... :O

[CommonSenseApproach]

I wish to expound the factors which have contributed to the current malaise which is Air Movements at Fairford. But first I must correct some basic factual errors:

Rej’s comment on the incident at the entry to Disused South at Lyneham is only part correct. The vehicles were heading in the same direction and converged with the faster moving vehicle (The Atlas) running along the side of the forklift tearing off the Atlas side rails and dumping them on the roof of the forklift. The loads on both vehicles were thankfully undamaged. Both drivers were inexperienced and lets face it, careless, but as it appears to be impossible to discipline anyone these days what can we expect? Yes the pavement was wide enough for a C17, just as well really as ZZ-171 was parked on it at the time. Oh and yes it was a nice sunny day.

Safety_Helmet - If you havn’t got a half decent mover story where have you been all your career?

unclenelli - The 2 MT vehicle was not marshalled by a mover although a baggage party of army passengers were standing around the carousel, that duty should most likely have fallen to the vehicle escort however, he remained in the cab. The driver incidentally had 4 previous accidents in the last 2 years. Why was a roller bed kneeling trailer worth 140K (and most likely now written off) used for carting bags from FFD with a driver unfamiliar with the low carousel instead of the 7.5T vehicles and drivers provided for such bags? Something to do with 2 x 747 full passenger ac arriving within 20 minutes of each other thus exceeding the capacity of the assets available perhaps? Flow control, any of you Ops types ever heard of it?

12 twists per inch - Yes a “grown-up” albeit an acting one, did damage a 10, drove off, denied doing so when questioned, told the LAC with him to keep stum. This is now a unit enquiry which means far from being disciplined the no blame, there, there, never mind culture will no doubt take over. If a grown-up lies should he be allowed to wear the Queens Colours? By the way professional; 1 F, 2 S, (broken in wilts also take note)

The 747 was damaged by a Auxiliary Air Force JNCO, the previous day he had damaged an LDV vehicle when he drove over a grounded pallet. He subsequently admitted that he had trouble seeing objects at certain distances and should have had his eyes tested. He has a history of scrapes during his call-up period.

The movers rely heavily on the support of 4624 Sqn RAuxAF who are established for 270 reserve and 30 HQ+Trg posts but the unremitting call-up of these “war reserve” assets has caused their number to dwindle to around 95 + 30. (216 Sqn have made use of them for Op Bolthole by mis-employing 3 as drivers – hope they don’t hit anything).
And yes, there are some facile and inappropriate comments on the mover’s web site but every job has it’s idiots, some them even post on this site do they not?

Grounded So Stack is closer to the truth that he knows where Fairford is concerned when it comes to saying enough is enough but nothing is that simple is it?

The Stn Cdr called all the Movs Offrs, WO and FS together to instil his message about safety and he stated he fully supported any genuine need for delays or rescheduling - Ops Wg however, are not listening; see above flow as an example.

Often their own worst enemy the movers attempt the impossible, run around like headless chickens and then, another “F**kwit mover incident”. Perhaps eventually they will feel able to slow down, their bosses to submit a reasoned argument for doing the job safely rather than immediately, but until the internal conflict management issue is resolved the problem will remain (see below).
Would you as aircrew or technicians undertake tasks, cutting corners and taking risks as part of your every day working routine? Would your bosses encourage you to do so?

The lot of the mover at BZZ and FFD is not a happy one. Of a given shift of nominally 28 people it is usual for between 8 and 12 of those to be OOA and a further 4-6 to be on courses of between 1 and 12 weeks duration. Some shifts are so poorly manned that at FFD there is no NCO available between WO and SAC and therefore little supervision takes place, it’s more of an SAC’s cooperative.
74.6% of the SACs have less than 3 years total service. In this years promotion board BZZ may get at most 15% of the SAC-Cpl slots despite having 48% of the trades SACs – no one has enough time-in! 84% of Cpls and 78% of Sgts have less than 18 months in rank, many of these despite their junior status are acting one rank above so as to ensure that tasks that require an NCO have one even if it is someone who is in reality still very junior in the rank below.
Imagine your own workplace with a crew room full of LACs or ab initio WSOps or pilots, most of your experienced personnel in Basrah or elsewhere and a tasking schedule like Lyneham in the good old TacEval days. You turn to your most experienced member of staff who has only been with you for maybe 6 months to help, flag up your concerns to your bosses and get told to get on with it, give some of the LACs acting NCO rank and soldier on.

Those individuals with a sense of self-preservation have ensured they have been posted elsewhere leaving those less fortunate or “only here because I was offered promotion” to make do. Additional work has now been thrust upon them in the form of the Army, sorry Joint, asset tracking system “Vital”, another 1 week course, more work, no additional manpower.

OOA area dets come around every 16 months for Cpls and every 20-24 months for SACs and Sgts with this set to become worse in January.

During my University days I learned about conflict management, the signs of conflict as described in the link below are obvious amongst the movers:
http://www.nsba.org/sbot/toolkit/Conflict.html

This is compounded by the appalling personal standards of their junior “leaders”, one recently bounced a cheque to one of her airmen, (the deposit for their Christmas function I belive) no doubt nothing will be done about it. Another faxed statements concerning the 747 incident direct to the airline in contravention of SSOs and before the legal beagles had seen them. From outside these “leaders” look like an unholy alliance of the passed-over and the unlikely to achieve whose focus appears to be on sport and social activities rather then tackling the paramount issues described above.
Little wonder that the grown-ups appear to have resigned themselves to failure whilst they wait, dejected until their mortgage reaches a point where the gratuity pays it off or the kids finish school.

I have worked with the movers around the world in various guises and for many years, I know them to be professional and hard working. It is frustrating to see them at BZZ and FFD in their current state. I write this expectant of whoever in the MOD whose place it is to monitor such things as these posts passing it on to those in whose domain lies the solution to this unfortunate state of affairs.

Remember few things are as simple as they appear, so before decrying others look deeper at the real factors. After all Tony's 45 mins and WMD were drivers for us being in Iraq!

[Mr C Hinecap]

CSA - thank you very much for that - you have to hand the sort of figures that could make a man weep.
I hope that those posting here who don't have to try and lead overworked, underwhelmed human beings can look at this issue with a little more perspective.
On the VITAL issue - the Movers always had to do it - the 1 wk course is at least training them for the job now :ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Good to see 'Always Bleating' has his sense of humour fully intact (but obviously disconnected at present) and the 'smilie' blinkers fully down. Anyway, as you decided to go all serious here's a little trade group history lesson for you.

ALM's were originally drawn from the Supply trade, as were Movers at a later date. The primary reason for the split into separate trades wasn't down to the 'massive complexities' of your trade or due to main steam Supply wanting fully rid of the less intellectually developed Movers (counting blankets can prove too difficult for some folk), it was down to manning problems.

ALM and Mover qualified Suppliers were drawn from a stations main supply, so when the a/c went away on jollies overseas the Supply Sqn had to run short of personnel. As the requirements of the job increased and also time spent overseas a serious over-stretch was noticed so the creation of separate trades was put forward by the airships.

So here we are today, with muppets, stackers and loadies (the latter trade having at least one member with no discernible sense of humour). Hence the quip "don't forget you were all stackers once upon a time" has a historic grounding. I'm not trying to suggest one of the mighty such as you 'ABIW' came from such humble roots as Tech Stores. Obviously you are far superior to us hoarders, although lacking in the sense of humour us lowly folk need to cope in such a humble and unloved position.