F-16s and AH-1Ws failed to sink ship

[alert5]

The Republic of China Air Force sent two F-16s and two AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters to sink a South Korean freighter that capsized off its coast last Thursday. Both missions failed to sink the ship, but the Ministry of National Defense still declared the mission a success.

http://www.alert5.com/2005/11/botched-bombing-efforts-embarrass.html

[Data-Lynx]

At least it was not so close to home. Try this UK report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/29/newsid_2819000/2819369.stm) from 1967 comprising 62,000lbs of bombs, 5,200 gallons of petrol, 11 rockets and large quantities of napalm onto the ship.

[diginagain]

Both missions failed to sink the ship, but the Ministry of National Defense still declared the mission a success.
Now that's the sort of statement you'd never see said by our Min of Def. :}

[ORAC]

Admitting that it was "embarassing" that the initial effort by two F-16s to bomb and sink the ship failed, Minister of National Defense Lee Jye yesterday said the ministry would engage in introspection about the mission. Lee made the remarks on the legislative floor yesterday while fielding a question from the lawmakers about the ministry's mission to demolish the ship at the request of the Environmental Protection Administration (EPA).

"Engage in introspection", I wonder if it hurts.......... :}

[KENNYR]

I remember thinking at the time "why not pack the 62,000 Lbs of bombs into the Torey Canyon and sink it purely by the extra weight." Still, it was wonderful to watch the live target practice and it made me want to join the Army instead. LOL

[Gainesy]

Weeell, the Tirpitz was not sunk as such...

[MarkD]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2005/10/29/2003277837
(direct link to story)

[SSOT]

Surely the Spams haven't been selling F-16s and Super Cobras to the Chinese! Next they'll be trying to offload Trident to the Iranians.

[Wholigan]

Just to put the record straight with reference to the Torrey Canyon incident, the initial briefing was to try to set light to the oil, rather than to try to sink the ship. Consequently, the ship was opened up a bit more (the bombs and rockets that hit), and the "petrol" (actually napalm) was dropped to miss the ship and attempt to set the oil alight (the "bombs" that missed). It failed mainly because the "advisers and taskers" didn't seem to know that the heavy oil actually floats just below the surface of the sea water, so the napalm only caused the sea to steam a lot.

The hardest part of the whole episode was the poor old boss trying to explain why the RAF had those "Vietnam Horror Bombs" and nobody had known. What the "press" didn't realise is that anybody who had fuel, a gelling agent and an ignition method could have the "Vietnam Horror Bomb".

[Fox3snapshot]

That's Taiwan matey, and they have a complete inventory of US equipment...with a whole lot more on order.

:eek:

[brickhistory]

and all uneducated, I've nothing to lose by asking why "Spam" as a reference?!

[FishHead]

Come come now SSOT...

It was the Air Force of the Republic of China, not the People's Liberation Army Air Force of the People's Republic of China.

(ie, Taipei (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tw.html) , not Beijing (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html) )

[walter kennedy]

Wholigan
“… anybody who had fuel, a gelling agent and an ignition method could have the "Vietnam Horror Bomb".
Come on – I’ll bet it was not as ad hoc as that, was it?
In a part of Africa that was more British than Britain in the 70’s, as I recall something called “FranTan” was carried by the Hunters in “Frangible Tanks”.
It’s not something that the good guys like to admit (to themselves let alone the public!) they have in their arsenal.
I am surprised even at the Americans using it recently in Iraq (Fallujah?) – it doesn’t exactly win hearts and minds on either side.

[SSOT]

Fox3snapshot & FishHead - Come on chaps, I was just having a friendly dig at alert5.

BTW I have no idea where the term "spam" in reference to the Americans comes from - though it is widely used in UK military circles. I hope is isn't un-PC; I would hate to offend.

[con-pilot]

No fear SSOT, spam is a reference to an American meat (?) product that was very abundant in World War II.

Another reference to Spam was used during the early days of manned space flight in the US. The Astronauts called themselves “Spam in the Can” because at first they very little control over the space capsule.

[SSOT]

My best guess was that it half rhymed with Ams. Spamericans maybe?

[brickhistory]

quote: BTW I have no idea where the term "spam" in reference to the Americans comes from - though it is widely used in UK military circles. I hope is isn't un-PC; I would hate to offend.
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No worries. I just was curious if there was a direct anecdote regarding the connection.

As far as un-PC; that's one of the world's many problems. Too much seriousness over stuff that doesn't mean s***.

IMO, of course.

Spam is a delicacy in Hawaii, oddly enough.....

[Roadster280]

I know exactly what "spam" refers to. Actually, it is an acronym. It is highly un-PC, not at all friendly.

Since I am a Brit living in the land of milk and honey, I will keep what it actually means under my hat. If anyone cares to post on ARRSE, they will find out the answer, and probably be mercilessly character assassinated for having the naivety to ask. But I am sure someone will dish the dirt.

It isnt nice and should be forgotten. Believe me.

[Data-Lynx]

Agree with Roadster280. Another unpleasant 90s variant was based on rhyming slang for spam fritter.

[SSOT]

I did hear once that spam is so popular amongst certain pacific islands due to the similarity of its taste to "longpig"

[N5528P]

What would happen if this ship is:

1. makeing evasive maneuvers
2. firing back
3. part of a Chinese (mainland) task force to attack Taiwan

Not much sense of having armed forces...

Bernhard

[brickhistory]

quote:
What would happen if this ship is:

1. makeing evasive maneuvers
2. firing back
3. part of a Chinese (mainland) task force to attack Taiwan

Not much sense of having armed forces...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fairly sure that ships have been sunk/disabled while performing your stated conditions from aircraft before. Just betting that the same would happen again...............
:ok:

Upon checking my facts, guess condition 3 hasn't actually occurred.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Maybe they should have just got the captain drunk and sailed it up a fjord...or whatever they call them in Alaska

[MarkD]

Well if the Americans won't sell them this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-84_Harpoon) maybe the Taiwanese should shop around for these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet) or maybe these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-N-22) or even these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Strike_Missile)

[BewareTheDropBear]

As an Aussie, we're genetically pre-disposed to offending everyone (all in the name of taking the pi.ss of course!) so I have no hesitation at all in announcing that the only time I've ever heard an American called a 'spam' is when he/she is behaving especially spastic-like...hence:

SPastic AMerican.

It doesn't get much play down here, my lot seem to prefer to use the word Seppo. :E

So "Peace Out", my Septic brothers in arms! :ok:

[Daysleeper]

Mark D but Taiwan already hasthose (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug1998/m08271998_m137-98.html) and platforms to launch them. Makes you wonder why they didn't actually use an anti ship missile rather than anti tank ones.:rolleyes:

[brickhistory]

quote:
Maybe they should have just got the captain drunk and sailed it up a fjord...or whatever they call them in Alaska
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Or just let a boob hit a marked outcropping of rocks like Seven Sisters. Oh, wait, that's already been done.........

[The Helpful Stacker]

I believe the term 'spam' when used in the context of Americans comes from WW2.

When the US were initially asked for assistance by the UK they were worried about being seen as on the side of either power, so as well as profiteering from German slave labour and providing power plants for German trucks the US also supplied the UK with food aid. One of the main items was 'Spam, the ham in a can'.

Of course in way of thanks Britain gave the US all the intelligence it had on the Japanese threat, which was duly ignored and as a consequence they had their bottoms spanked by an Asian foe they saw as 'inferior'.

[Data-Lynx]

Hang on MarkD and Brick-H. If we try some 'effects', this tub was beyond fighting (well conducting its main task). It had stopped moving and, while technically afloat, was upside down. This wasn't a target for military weapons, it was a navigational hazard. A freighter carrying benzene to modern standards will have multiple compartments and a double skinned hull with fuel between the skins. Terrorist attacks on tankers in the Gulf demonstrated how difficult they are to sink. Whoever suggested that lobbing bombs or Hellfires at it wasn't being much of an expert. A torpedo would have had more success.

[brickhistory]

Data-lynx,

I agree with you.

My point to N5528P's seemingly anti-military post was that ships HAVE been sunk before from aircraft. Even if Taiwan muffed sinking this derelict, ships definitely face a threat from aircraft attack and therefore, maybe there is a reason for having a military.
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To Helpful Stacker,

Hmmm, perhaps a bit of anti-American bias in your post's facts?
Sure, the US traded with Germany for far too long, but we did start escorting convoys way out into the Atlantic and lost several of our own destroyers before we got into the fray, as well as a few other good things.

And we did get our bottoms 'spanked,' with a sneak attack (not sure the UK gave us the intel on that one - thought you guys had the German codes and we did the Japanese, but I am not a SIGINT historian...)
Oh, and was it then better to get spanked with full knowledge of a war like happened in Singapore, the sinking of Repulse and Prince of Wales, etc, etc?

My apologies to those who either fought or had family who did for those battles; they were brave men. But the blatant "See how bad/evil/stupid the Yanks always are" wore thin.

Oh, and thanks to the UK for centimetric radar's cavity magnatron, substantial help on the bomb, and lots of other good things to include standing alone until we did get into the fray.

[The Helpful Stacker]

But the blatant "See how bad/evil/stupid the Yanks always are" wore thin.

Putting words in my mouth I see.

The context of what I stated before is correct. The British government re-payed the aid given by the US with all the intel it had available on the Japanese threat, which was largely ignored by FDR's Director of Communications at the time William J Donovan, a man with a well documented dislike of the British.

As with many of the great moments in history the 'lack' of intel prior to the attacks on Pearl Harbour was down to he attitudes of an individual rather than nation.

[brickhistory]

Helpful,

If it wasn't your intent to slam all Americans all the time, then I apologize. That's how I read your post.

Donovan? Yes, he was no fan of the British, but THE reason why we got caught with our shorts down at Pearl Harbor (never mind the Phillippines the NEXT day!)?! I think not.

Plenty of decision makers in the US chain muffed it and the Japanese pounded our d***s into the mud of Pearl.

(So, have we successfully hijacked this thread or can it be saved?!)

[henry crun]

brickhistory: A double agent working for the British, code name Tricycle, real name Dusko Popov, went to the US months before Pearl Harbour.

The Germans had asked him, obviously on behalf of the Japanese, to answer a long list of questions about the defences and state of readiness at Pearl Harbour.

This was handed to Hoover on a plate with the assurance of British intel that Tricycle was trustworthy.
But, for some reason Hoover disliked and did not trust Tricycle so never passed on that information.

[OrdF15]

Interesting parallels!

Within 2 days of the attack on Pearl Harbour, Churchill's answer to the Pacific (he had the 'Europe First' priority correct, I think) the Repulse and Prince of Wales went to the bottom. On the Isle of Singapore, thanks to the lack of vision of Brig Percival, UK soldiers were practicing shooting at targets of German soldiers, not preparing defenses (Like the UK Sapper recommended) and thus got rolled over from Malaya in all of about a month.

'Inadequate planning, little jungle training, poor intelligence, low morale, confused command structure and lack of air cover all contributed to defeat in Malaya. The Japanese were thoroughly prepared determined and used the jungle effectively.'

<http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/pages/Second-war/far-east.html>

Failure of intel? I dont think so... Failure to appreciate the situation. Probably.

[Combine Harvester]

Whilst there is, indeed, a somewhat tasteless and reasonably vitriolic 'solution' to the acronym 'SPAM', another was suggested to me, by an American, in Jordan a few years ago: Self Propelled Automatic Mouth. Even he thought it was amusing and a decidedly accurate description of many of his fellow countrymen.

[southside]

It would be difficult to compare the likes of the Prince of Wales and Repulse to todays modern Navies (be them Armed or Merchant).
The difference is the NBCD training. For instance. Ships Companies of WW2 generally (not all) had little or no training in Damage control and consequently those ships were lost easily. Compare that to 1982 when although the Sheffield was lost as a fighting unit, it actually took days to sink it. The fire raged on board for about 3 days before the ship actually sunk. A beter example would be HMS Nottingham which was saved from certain death by the training (and bravery) of the ship's company.


Whilst we are on the subject of attacking ships, did anyone spot the news last week reference the Somali pirates (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4409662.stm)

Apparently the crew used an LRAD to defend ths ship.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Here's a picture of an LRAD. Good job this bloke's not the type to annoy his colleagues, or that they are the type to play merry pranks on each other :E

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/32/Soundweapon1.jpg


...I feel a caption competition coming on

[4Greens]

Crude oil from a tanker has to be set alight with the equivalent of long exposure to a blowtorch. The only danger on board is fuel vapour. That doesn't occur of course when it spreads over seawater.
Napalm, bombs etc are completely useless.

[southside]

spooky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4418748.stm)

[West Coast]

Cool stuff. I could post my wife on a ship then. God knows she can screan pretty loud.

Got to think a 50 cal would have been nice in persuading the bad guys.

[insty66]

I thought it was "Specially Processed American Meat."

Sounds irresistable