PVR before amortization?

[sarboy w****r]

I'm after some advice please...

I want to leave the RAF, but am still inside the amortization period of my second OCU. The return of service is normally 3 years (2008), but I would like to leave inside that (2007). I am quite happy to give 12 months notice, I just don't want to serve out the remaining 2 1/2 years. I will have done in excess of 6 years productive service, and would like to leave after 2 years post-OCU, not 3.

Question: does anyone have any experience of getting out whilst still inside the normal amortization period? And if you've managed it (or know someone who has), how does one go about it?

Thanks,

SBW

[BHPS]

I put in a PVR and left 21 months after becoming a Spec Aircrew Flt Lt. I was NOT advised by our dear scribblies that by not serving 24 months amortization "on promotion" until it was too late, I would lose out on some of my pension. I wasn't even told that by moving from Flt Lt to Spec Aircrew Flt Lt at my 16/38 point that it was even a "promotion" .

That naivety has cost me £700pa on my pension. You don't say how long you have served, but I would check very carefully that you won't lose out on pension or other money that you would expect to get on leaving the service.

[bakseetblatherer]

Yep, I had no problems. I was inside my amortization period and I only gave about 6 months notice...
I just filled in the standard PVR form. It was avail on the net, although I had to talk to OC PSF to get instructions to find the thing. I put in a covering letter explaining my reasons for leaving and my reasons for needing to be out at the time I wanted. I spend a goodly amount of time on the letter and got my Flt Cdr (and a few old and bolds) to check it was succinct and to the point. Inside the PMA world this is the only thing they have apart from the form so make it good.
I chatted to the poster to give him a heads up and he seemed to think it might be a problem and gave me the party line. But a change in poster meant the new one was more sympathetic and as he has a handle on what is what with your branch get him onside as well if poss. Service interest, I reckon, is the main thing.
PMA will also talk to your Boss to see if he can afford to lose you but he doesn't have the final say (my Boss wanted me around until about now and I have been out 9 months).
The letter arrived back ASAP and I was out as requested:D
They seemed to be pleased to be rid of me, but then again I was an F3 Nav....:)

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

You could of course speak to your poster. He/she is in the best position to tell you whether or not the Service would rescind any of your ROS.

I have recently been led to believe that if you PVR you will be kept for 12 months or ROS, whichever is later. I also believe that the situation is fluid at the moment, with increased numbers of PVRs arriving at Binnsworth.

You can but ask.

:confused:

[Climebear]

There is a Trg Return of Service (Trg ROS) requirement for Second and subsequent OCUs (the term amortization was dropped approx 4 years ago). You should have been asked to sign a form/letter prior to undertaking the course that your understood the Trg ROS requirments.

If emmeory serves me correctly the Trg ROS are published annually in DCIs (available on the Intranet) and allowed some flexibility where it met the Service requirements. So if you are in a cadre of individuals that the Services whish rid of then your PVR could well be accepted with open arms - on the other hand...

[nimblast]

sarboy w****r
You need to speak to your PSF, if it's Nimrods you are on then the amortization period is only valid if you have undertaken a 6 month OCU, is you took the short OCU 3 months then there isn't any amortization period. There is some relevant stuff in AP 3393(I think). However there is more stuff in a AP that only the PSF staff and your poster has access to.
Speak to your poster and get the answer in writing.

[Shagster]

Try this one,,,Euro employment law...paid monthly,,,only give one months notice!!

[buoy15]

"I think your 1st RO will let you know"

Sung to the tune of - 'Land of Hope and Glory'

[The Gorilla]

Shagster

totally wrong

[Brain Potter]

Shagster - The Gorilla is quite right. As I understand it, a member of HM Forces is not "employed" as such. They are either commissioned or engaged, depending on rank. The only employment laws that apply to the Forces are those for sex and race discrimination. The other laws that protect employees are replaced by rights under the redress system. That's why we have seen Employment Tribunals for sexual and racial dicscrimination cases but not for any other grievances.

[Wyler]

It comes down to service needs at the end of the day, irrespective of any avice you get from the 9 to 5 scribblies in SHQ. I PVR'd but wanted to take up an FTRS post (I wanted stability for the wife and kids). PMA bit my hand off and it was frighteningly quick and seemless. Other mates have been put through the mincer and dicked about. In the current climate of mass evacuation of bodies you may be in for a bumpy ride.

If all else fails, put on a dress, walk into the CO's office, declare your love for him and demand that you start making babies together. That may speed things up a bit.

Good luck.

[Climebear]

Shagster

The legislation you are thinking of is the Employment Rights Act 1996 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996018.htm) . Part IX details requirements for notice (by either party); however, you will note that Part XIII Para 192 - Armed Forces does not apply these provisions to the Armed Forces.

European Legislation is equally clear - do you think that nations with predominantly conscritp armed forces would allow their servicemen to leave when ever they wished? Out of interest Article 4 of the European Convention of Human Rights (http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html#C.Art4) that prevents forced or compulsory labour includes an exemption for inter alia :

any service of a military character or, in case of conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognized, service exacted instead of compulsory military service;

[Talk Reaction]

If you were posted to another type then that shouldn't affect your TOS, if doing another OCU after the inital 6 year payback. After all, if it did then we would all be quite within our rights to refuse to change types and where would that leave the "managers" at PMA

[3portdrift]

My experience was as follows. On a course with an 18 month ROS. Submitted paperwork to take my 38/16 option which would have given a maximum of 5 months ROS. Paperwork all completed well in advance, 6 month later PMA notice the conflict between Option and ROS. There then follows a very unsettling phonecall from Desk Officer trying to blackmail/trick/cajole me into rescinding my Option. I asked to see a copy of the ROS paperwork that 'I had signed', knowing there was none. Immediate end of phone conversation, 2 hours later, interview with my Boss, no further action being taken by PMA and I was free to leave at my Option point.

Bottom line, the DCI on ROS is quite explicit in the requirement for ROS to be signed for and PMA seem to realise that they are obliged to go along with this. Hope you didn't sign anything!

Good Luck

[Cattivo]

Does anyone know if the RoS still stands if you are subsequently posted out early from the job (ie QFI) that incurred the RoS.... if you know what I mean.

[Climebear]

Cattivo

Yes it does, the RoS relates to a time period rather than specific employment.

[sarboy w****r]

I'm not sure how, but I've gone though 7 1/2 years service believing that the RoS for 2nd OCU was 2 years. And no, I don't need to be reminded how assumption is the mother of all f*** ups, makes an ass of u and me, etc etc...

However, I now discover that is not the case, it's 3 years instead. I never had it explained that it was 3 years, but that could be a moot point. I had been asked if I knew what the RoS was, and I said yes. It just turns out I was wrong. I haven't got anything with my signature on that says I know the RoS to be 3 years.

I'm a rotary pilot, and I know that exit dates depend on manning levels primarily, despite what pma may say. And it would be nice if things could remain amicable between me and the RAF! I'd like for us to come to a mutual arrangement as to when I will leave.

I've got no problem in giving 12 months notice, it's just that having made the decision to leave, and having planned to leave in mid-07, I don't want to mark-time for an extra 12 months, and leave in mid-08 instead.

SBW

[Climebear]

sarboy w****r

Details of Trg RoS are published in the Air Sec's Pesonnel Staff Instructions (available on the intranet) Vol 1 Part 4 Chap 1as well as DCIs.

If you weren't told about the Trg ROS prior to undertaking the OCU you may wish to raise the issue with your desk officer as Sub-para 4c of the instructions to manning directorates is clear that:

Manning Directorates are not to finalise the nomination of personnel for training that attracts a RoS without first obtaining a written undertaking from the individual, confirming that he/she is aware of the RoS requirement

[sarboy w****r]

I can see the issue being that they thought I knew that it was 3 years, but I thought it was 2 years, and no-one clarified the matter. When they asked me "are you aware that this course attracts a RoS?", and I said yes, I thought the RoS was 2 years.

At no point was I told "the Ros is 3 years", nor do they have anything that says "RoS for this course is 3 years, and I acknowledge this". The argument will be it is my own stupid fault for not confirming the RoS. And maybe they have a point.

It's no use crying over spilt milk though, hence why I am looking around for options to make an early exit as pain free as possible, both for me and PMA. I don't want to have to go down the legal route if I can avoid it, nor do I want to get bolshie about just saying I will be leaving anyway, come what may. I still have immense loyalty to the job and my boss, I just want out in mid-07, not mid-08. You only live once, and I want to spend those 12 months doing something else.

SBW

[Climebear]

SBW

That's the point, they shouldn't have to rely on what they told you (that should be noted electronically) or what you assumed, the desk officers own instructions mandate that they write to you explaining the RoS (the ASPSI gives a specimen letter). That way you both know what you are signing up for and can't try to claim ignorance later.

[sarboy w****r]

So the fact that I have only ever got a print-out of the electronic record of what was discussed at the career appraisal interview, that simply says "SBW is aware that there is a RoS associated with this course" (or words to that effect), makes a possible point for later argument?

I'll check the ASPSI when I get to work for the specimen letter I should have got. Where does it say in ASPSI that the desk officer must send the letter? Are they both in Vol 1 Part 4 Chap 1 as well?

SBW

[Climebear]

SBW

The draft letters are in the ASPSI. The ASPSI is clear that the Desk Officer must get a written certificate from your prior to nomination. The final para reads

The revised policy will ensure that, except in cases where the Service need dictates that an individual who is not prepared to accept the RoS requirement must be trained, personnel will be committed to provide the required RoS. Personnel will be aware, from signing the acceptance certificate that this will bar them from premature exit from the Service until they have provided the required RoS.

[Trumpet_trousers]

Personnel will be aware, from signing the acceptance certificate that this will bar them from premature exit from the Service until they have provided the required RoS

Interesting. I had a conversation with my Desk Officer along the lines of: "Well I can't let you go early as you haven't completed your RoS post-training"
"What RoS?" says I
Him: "Ah well, you completed the course before we got the paperwork to you, but it will be coming your way soon enough"
Funnily enough, it never did - had it done, it would have gone straight into File 13
Talk about moving goalposts!

[dirty_bugger]

Just a thought, but you always honour the commitment that you made before undertaking that training that necessitated the RoS. I know its a radical thought but surely since the forces have paid through the nose for you and the training received they are entitled to their pound of flesh.

Suck it up man and do the right thing, stop whinging and get on with it. You can always go fly for virgin afterwards.

Please dont reply with whinges about this opinion - just assume that I've ignored them and move on.

[southside]

Good call. Far too many whingers and free loaders wanting to eat cake. If you tried this sort of thing with a civilian company you'd find yourself on yer ear.....

If you committed to the training then crack on with it.

[sarboy w****r]

Climebear,

Thanks very much for your advice, it's given me a number of options to pursue.


Dirty_bugger, southside,

Thank you too for your opinions. I hope that if one day your priorities should change such that you feel you want/need to leave the service, I hope that others won't rush to judge you. I wish you both the best of luck in your future careers, in whatever service you should be in.


Anyone generally:

If push comes to shove, and PMA were to be told that after a certain date, you will regard yourself as no longer being employed by the RAF, what do they tend to do? PMA aren't the only people who can be hard-nosed, and I know of at least one other person who is about to press-to-test.

I don't want opinions as to what people think ought to happen (we're not in the Great War any more). I'm interested in first hand experiences. I've never heard of anyone being charged with desertion.

SBW