Multi Job

[Over and gout]

Gday,

I'm wondering if anybody knows of a company that may be looking for a twin driver so I can try and get that elusive 500 multi PIC !

I've got 1200 hrs + MECIR, dangerous goods, first aid etc.

Will relocate anywhere, but won't work for nothing


I'm doing the resume/phone thing, but if someone has some inside info it would be much appreciated!

Cheers:ok:

[Continental-520]

You may find you're faced with the same deal as getting your first job up north, in that you have to go there to get it, unless you have a contact who will give you a job over the phone.

Within WA, give Tropicair Carnarvon a go, especially if you have an instructor rating, Paul Lyons @ JT if you have a B58 endorsement, Oasis Air in HLC if you can handle flying a C210 and P68 initially and eventually a PA31, Broome Air Services, Polar Aviation in 'Hedland, that's about it in WA for initial twin time.

KFS and AusWest both in Karratha with some remote bases want multi command time anyway, so it can't hurt to pay them a visit but I wouldn't put my money on them just yet.

You might find that WA is very limited as far as twin time goes, so your willingness to move anywhere will certainly be handy. The NT might prove to be an option for you, but research it well before set off.

Good luck.


520.

[dasjab]

Hi ther O and G,

Can you please email your contact details to [email protected] and I may be able to help you out.

Thanks

DJ

[Over and gout]

Thanks guys:ok:

[Azimuth]

Over and gout

Can you PM me your details as one of the drivers where I'm at is leaving.

Cheers

Azimuth

[JetABro]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to ask the same thing about these hard to find multi jobs.

Similar situation, 1100tt, MEIR, had tried Cairns for a while with no luck. Now am in NZ and still no luck after travelling the country.

Does anyone have any suggestions of where to try or who to ask???

JetABro

[mattyj]

In NZ 1100 is too many to get a job multi piston but not enough to get one multi turbine..welcome to the twilight zone with me:O

[mebro]

Hello Gys,

Not to take over Over and Gout's initial request, However in a similar situation with 1215 TT, 300 ME, 225 ME PIC, 50 night, Valid CIR and been struggling to find a suitable job.

If someone could help me get a break, it would be greatly appreciated.

Ta

[bushy]

Get a LAME ticket, and you can take your pick. You would get aLAME/pilot job in Alice Springs the first week.

[mebro]

Helo Bushy,

valid suggestion, although I have not got a lame ticket, I hae from time to time worked worked under supervision for a mx company on 100 hrly's and other adhoc mx

Still without any progress ..may be having the actual LAME licence would be different

[Chadzat]

sorry if this may sound like a stupid and/or personal question but why did you guys leave your twin jobs?

[Continental-520]

I would suggest that most people leave their twin jobs for the same reason one might leave a single job: to progress in one's career path!

To move up and on to new heights, new/more complex equipment, a better pay offer or just another step closer to pursuing the ultimate goal.

I wouldn't imagine that you would leave a lob in aviation for any other reason, unless you were getting out altogether.


520.

[DeltaT]

This is interesting, I thought this problem was just me!
With 1600hrs, no multi engine operator wants to employ me either! This is nuts!

[bushy]

Most multi operators want experienced pilots who believe in what they are doing, and intend to stay. Too many think it is beneath teir dignity, and they only intend to stay long enough to get some hours.
Some of the less admirable operators keep employing newbies, and pay little.
This is bad for the pilots and the industry.
There are good operators out there, but they do not operate with a stream of newbies.
Look at the RFDS thread. Most of them are flying singles.

[haughtney1]

Bushy....in an ideal world mayby your points are valid. I challenge you to find 10% of guys flying light piston twins right now who dont want to move onto bigger better things EVENTUALLY.

As for reputable operators, most reputable companies realise a light twin job IS a stepping stone, nothing more nothing less, and for most people its a neccessary experience builder. Unless you have no ambition in your career..orrr you operate in circumstances where its convenient to stay put...flying a light twin is not a longterm option..even if you believe in it!:rolleyes: that is of course unless you live in Australia..where you need 5000hrs.....3 moon landings and 3 de-orbit burns in the last 90 days..to get a job on a Kingair...(taken from another thread)

[Rhodes13]

Here Here haughtney1, for far too long we have had to put up with bushy's rantings and ravings about GA, which he views through his rose tinted glasses.

Until Bushy faces the fact that for 90% of pilots, GA will now and forever be a stepping stone to the majors we will continue to have to listen to his diatribes on how GA should be.

Bushy until GA can offer the same benefits of working for an airline there will always be a continual movement onto bigger and better things. A good operator should know this and plan for it. To not would be simply putting ones head in the sand.

And your advice to mebro isn't exactly helping him now is it? Getting your LAME ticket isn't something that one can do in a week. It takes years of being an apprentice and countless exams to become a fully qualified LAME. Instead of trying to force your ideals on the rest of GA, how about you help people who are just starting out and offer some of the advice that you learnt through your many years of operating as a PILOT not as an operator.

Rhodes13

[maxgrad]

Ok Bushy might get a little over the top with regard GA. But he has some very valid points. It is an attitude and work ethic that many a time is missing in GA drivers these days. Conditions might and regularly do "suck" and yes it is just a stepping stone for the majority. That should not matter,(the stepping stone part that is). People watch you and operate with or around you in the industry. Word gets around.

You want to move from singles to twins. Walk the miles, (even if they do req moon landings, at present thats what they want and if we can't change it YET then either do moon landing or go OS). Show your boss and the lookers in the industry that you are professional and worthy of a twin ride, (all be it in a clapped out baron or somesuch).

I in no way endorse the present conditions or attitudes from too many employers but realise that to change the whole industry is a huge mark to set. I choose to break the task into smaller chunks and work from there. I try to do this by getting on with the job and doing as best I can.

Do you best always, network and get your name known for the right reasons in the industry and one thing a (then) Ansett captain told me is as soon as you get a single drivers job, apply for a twin here there and everywhere. Once you get the twin job, apply for the next. Set your challenge and work like buggery to get there.

I'm going to move very carefully from the keyboard now and go to the beer fridge where my medicine is. Please excuse me

[Chocks Away]

Well said maxgrad.

Bankstown is a case in point, where 95% of the Instructors my good friend has asked quotes from (and I have met), need a good hit around the ears.

They have lost their respective companies his big dollars (and many others I would guess) from a smart ass and extremely poor customer service attitude.

This translates into the air and especially heard over the radio.

Concentrate on polishing up your current job first because as was said previously: many people are watching!

The jobs will come to you if your reputation and attitude are good.

[Continental-520]

Those with the BEST attitudes, work ethics, morals and respect for their employer will leave their twin jobs too, as has been outlined above.

After all, if you work for a decent operator, posessing the traits above will lead to you leaving voluntarily.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that some people leave their jobs due to being asked to leave, or such. Reasons for this are fairly obvious of course.

520.

[haughtney1]

Superbly put Maxgrad, it was just what I was thinking..only it was late, had a few beers in me, my dog ate my homework etc...:)

[cessna 152 pilot]

Don't know but if you still have ties with your training organizations, most have contacts with muti jobs.

The flight school that i attend has a deal with the local meat bombers. Giving us the first pick before lookinga t others.

Don't know if flying meat bombers have many hours but it is a start for a few years.

Most jobs now require 1500 muti hours but one of the biggest Austrlaia airlines, only require 500 hours PIC, no mention about multi.

[Vetical Limit]

one of the biggest Austrlaia airlines, only require 500 hours PIC, no mention about multi.

Sorry to send this thread down this path but come on C152 pilot , do you really have any idea what your talking about? I think Over and Gout was after advise from industry professionals not aeroclub punters. Check back in when you've gone solo...

[757manipulator]

Most jobs now require 1500 muti hours but one of the biggest Austrlaia airlines, only require 500 hours PIC, no mention about multi


Here Here....the sooner the ridiculous requirement for 500hrs multi PIC disappears the better:E

Although I now have it:hmm:

[Cloud Cutter]

This 500 multi PIC requirement is ridiculous, I gather this is some Australian ATPL requirement? You guys really need to get with the program, and the rest of the ICAO world. How does multi PIC time in a lightly have any bearing on one's ability to command a heavy aircraft? Surely co-pilot time and command practice (ICUS) on the relevant category of equipment is more relevant than light aircraft time. I assume you are all lobbying CASA to get this archaic requirement changed?

I'm also sick of people getting on their high horse about pilots just using GA as a stepping stone. There's a very good reason for that - it is! (with a few exceptions). I'm not saying there's any excuse not to give 100% in a GA job, and the type of people who will successfully move on will be doing just that. It is naive and stupid of a GA operator not to accept this simple fact. It is much better to expect very hard work from an employee for a short time than to try and keep them against their will for the long haul - you will just end up p!ssing everyone off. Often the one's jumping on this bandwagon are those who were unsuccessful in progressing beyond GA themselves.:hmm:

[Continental-520]

Cloud Clutter,

It is not a requirement for the CASA/Australian ATPL.

Unfortunately though, you'll find that in Aussieland you really need that 500 M/E command to go anywhere/do anything, unless you just want to fly S/E or M/E piston GA rigs for the rest of your life.

Most regionals require it. I think it has a lot to do with insurance requirements more than the actual experience and how it may help you fly a heavy jet.

Indeed, GA is a stepping stone for many, and that's where it stems from. To get into Cathay as a DEFO, for example, there is a requirement for some multi turbine command time. To get a turbine command job here, it is usually RPT which means you need 500 multi command.

If it isn't RPT, they probably want jet time anyway.

Even as a DESO you are looked at with preference if you have multi engine command experience, according to their website.

I think that's about the reality of it, out here.


520.

[Woomera]

It is not a CASA requirement. In most cases it's an airline requirement, dictated by their insurance terms and conditions.

Woomera

[Cloud Cutter]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. So why are the Australian insurance requirements so different from ours? Here you could walk into a turboprop scheduled airline (RPT) job with 100 hours total multi. The insurance requirement is more to do with the Captain, a typical FO insurance requirement is 1000 or 1500 hours total and stipulates nothing about the makeup of time.

Frankly I just don't think our countries are that different and it seems like you guys are getting a raw deal. I would guess that less than 20% of new hires into our entry-level airlines in the past 2 years would have had 500 hours multi command.

Does it not strike the airlines in Aus (and CASA) as a bit odd that so many of your countrymen are opting to move east for their first airline job rather than slave away working for this arbitrary requirement set by some bureaucrat, only to have to shell out for a type rating? I think you have every right to be p!ssed off!

[mattyj]

Cloud Cutter is right, if you believe anything you read on Cathays website you won't ever bother putting in applications..they are so desperate for pilots, they have started advertising in local magazines (unprecidented) 500 MEIR command is just like 1000TT or 300 Multi..just a way of getting rid of the average desperado pilot, so Mr recruitment can get on with his paperwork.

Keep trying..call people and send updates..everyone who thinks he/she MUST become a pro pilot eventually does

[Back Seat Driver]

The airline c152 pilot refers to is QF...
Quite simply an application for direct entry will not be processed until you have 500 hours pic....QF requirement.

[morning mungrel]

Just 500 multi at CX???? hahahhahahahohohohohoho desperate for drivers? hahahahhahahhohohoohoho

[404 Titan]

mattyj

I'm not sure what advertising you are talking about but let me tell you that your application won't be looked at unless you have 1000 TT and a command IF rating. At present you won't generally get an interview without 3000 TT and 1000 turbine. We have 20000 applications on file. Admittedly most of these aren't competative but we aren't short of qualified applicants. These are the facts from someone very close to the coal face.

[Over and gout]

Still looking! I'll even fly singles for a while if there is a chance of progression!

1250 hours , MECIR , dangerous goods....

PM me if anyone knows of anything going:)

O&G:ok:

[Angle of Attack]

Mate just take any job you can get, regarless if its twin or not... not being disrespectful but 1200 hous is still low time especially if you dont have multi, just get any job then use the in-job contacts. I really wish you luck but dont knock back anything that you may be offered. I really wish the bst for you! ^^

[bullamakanka]

Hi O and G

I know where there is a multi/single job atm, but unfortunately i dont think your approach would suit the organistion?

"I'll even fly singles for a while if there is a chance of progression!"

You my only be kidding but it wont get you far.

Bulla.

[JetABro]

Well guys I have just over 1000TT with MECIR and keen for any work that is going either in NZ or AUST or anywhere else in the world for that matter. Flown in the wet and dry seasons up north, and am currently looking in NZ but no luck so far. Will be heading over to northern WA for the dry season in the next couple of weeks, but if there is anyone out there with any info on any jobs going anywhere then feel free to PM me as I am dead keen to fly......anything!!!
Thanks to anyone in advance:ok:

[neville_nobody]

This topic has been done to death round here, however for the record 500 Multi Engine require is a CAO requirement!! You need 500 ME Command on IFR flight plans for a command of >5700kg and 400 ME Command for Multi Crew
<5700 kg. You can count ICUS time towards this too if you can find someone willing enough to give you 500 ME ICUS!!

If you fly charter you only need 50 hours ME command for >5700kg.

Whilst it is a stupid requirement it does stop our pilot market from being flooded with europeans as they will have a hard time getting the experience to even apply to alot of airlines down here. Read on pprune where a NZ guy said he got a job in Europe in a regional with 250 hours TOTAL!!!! As he is only logging co pilot he wouldn't even be on the starting blocks for a regional job in this country.

Will be interesting though when they eventually retire all the piston twins though !!

For those wanting to look up the references check out CAO 82.3 Appendix 4 but note that is only for operations OTHER than High Cap RPT. So really Virgin, Jetstar and QF don't require it but everybody else does.

[bushy]

Why dont you set up a charter company, and then you can provide lots of free training for all the newbies, and pay the high insurance premiums that go with all that.
Most of them will not make it into an airline, but many will think that your operation is only a "stepping stone"
.
Let's look at the facts. The accident records show conclusively that safety figures are MJCH MUCH better for pilots with 5000 hours or more. Not hundreds-Thousands. And it has been this way for decades. The figures are available from ATSB, and elsewhere, and show the definite, indisputable change.


The airlines know this, and you will not find many low time Boeing Captains.(except maybe in the military)
GA organisations like the RFDS look for THOUSANDS of hours when they are recruiting. Many of their pilots have 10,000 hours.

But GA has a flood of newbies, and some of them are very good. They are all apprentices, even though they have licences.. Some are quite arrogant, and Treat GA as "a stepping stone" or something unimportant.

We have areas in Australia, bigger than NZ where there is not a single doctor, dentist, electrician, or plumber. Some are 700 km from the nearest hospital. Go and live out there for a while, and then tell me that GA is "just a stepping stone."
GA in Australia is a VERY essential passenger and freight carrying service and must be treated seriously. The GA accident rate is too high, because there are very few experienced pilots. And too many people consider GA to be "JUST A STEPPING STONE" If you think that-do not come.

[Over and gout]

Hi O and G

I know where there is a multi/single job atm, but unfortunately i dont think your approach would suit the organistion?

"I'll even fly singles for a while if there is a chance of progression!"

You my only be kidding but it wont get you far.

Bulla.


I think you misunderstood what I meant.

I'm more than happy to fly singles for ages in an organisation which has twins so I can move on up later on.:ok:

[slice]

Bushy - As previously posted your interpretation of the facts is needs some looking at! Any raw statistics taken from the ATSB are totaly meaningless if you do not consider-

Relative to the total number of pilots, those that have in excess of 5000 hours (the MAGIC number ?!?!?!?!?!) would be relatively small. I am guessing but something in the order of 10% of active pilots seems likely - SO OF COURSE THEY WILL HAVE FAR FAR LESS ACCIDENTS - there are far far less of them for a start.

In addition the vast bulk of those pilots would be operating in equipment (turboprop, turbojet) that has redundancy and safety technology that light aircraft just don't have. Also they would tend to operate for organizations that have a far more extensive support network.

The pilot in command of the Lockhart River accident had a little in excess of 6000 hours - the worst accident for 40 odd years and one that will likely be attributed to have a significant pilot error factor. It would be probable as well to assume that the crew of the fatal RFDS accident at Mt. Gambier also had well in excess of your magic number as did the famous Bangkok golfers. Hours alone gurantee nothing and to rely on someones total flying hours as a safety indicator is high folly.

I am not saying that experience is not a significant determinant in risk, but that to say you are bullet proof once you have so many hours is ridiculous.
Maybe the statement below will get you thinking about what I am trying to say.
"No blind pilot in Australia has ever had an accident. They have a 100% safety record!" :p

[bushy]

There are some blind ones posting on here.
Look at the figures yourself. They are expressed as a figure PER 100,000 flying hours,

No-one said anyone was bullet proof, but it is a proven fact that low time pilots have a much higher accident rate than more experienced ones. Face facts.

[pungamoose]

A study on US Navy pilots indicates that a 5000hr pilot with 100hrs on a new type is more likely to crash than a 500hr pilot with 400hrs on that same type. In this study it appears time on type is more important than total time.Any thoughts??

[LocoDriver]

MattyJ, you might be in the 'twilight' zone, but darkness is falling all around you.
Should have stayed where you were, your bread was buttered for you, but you didnt like the jam???

Flying jobs are out there- I have just placed two- applicants need to be motivated, dedicated, loyal and non political.

Methinks you have been around avgas too long!

Gone loco!
:E :E :E :E

[mattyj]

ahh..gidday loco..I forgot about this post..its been months..it doesn't count that you got those guys my old job..I didn't want it anymore..anyway, I booked your plane through the club for a flight out to the Barrier in a couple of weeks. Do I need a check ride? and is it tidy inside, I have visitors from the UK?

Love your work
Sincerely
Pilot4fun

[LocoDriver]

Hi MattyJ!
Actually, I was referring to two postions with Air NZ that my former students had gained, ref checks etc etc, not your old job, thats peanuts.

yes, a check in my plane is required, as it is named pilots for insurance reasons.
I look forward to seeing you, you will like the aircraft!

Cheers
gone Loco.................
:E :E :E :E

[pungamoose]

Just wondering if anyone could tell me....are Mattyj and loco fourteen year old girls? It's just they remind me so much of my little sister and her friends.

[LocoDriver]

G'day Pungmagoose,
No, MattyJ and Myself are well known, just cant resist the odd dig at
each other, just call it the brotherhood of aviators.!

We do, however, seem to disagree on multi jobs.
These postions come available on regular basis.

Good point you raised re hours on type versus total time.
I find it easier to teach a younger pilot on a new type, than an
older crustier type(Yeah yeah MattyJ, just like me) with lotsa hours,
fixed in his ways.
The example you gave was a good one.


Anyway, back to the sharp end of the train.

Loco
:E :ok: