YF-twenty-WHAT?

[Jackonicko]

Reading the online bio of Colonel Joseph A. Lanni, Commander of the 412th Test Wing, Air Force Flight Test Center, Edwards Air Force Base, I was impressed that:

He has: "more than 4,300 flying hours in over 70 different types of aircraft including the F/A-22 and numerous classified prototypes."

I was intrigued that he had been: "commander of our nation's only classified flight test squadron."

And I was simply baffled to learn that: "Aircraft flown include: F-4C-E, F-5E, F-15, F-16A-D, F-14, F-18, HH-60G, F/A-22, YF-24."

Which begs the question: "What is the YF-24?"

[Talking Radalt]

One o' them stealf fingies innit......

[Rakshasa]

Maybe he meant the YF-23? Or possibly.... the (Wild) rumors that the USAF is testing a new stealth job are true... :8

[VCR]

I think the YF-24 is this one................http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/RobDob1977/stealth.jpg

[DaveW]

This has happened before in on-line bios, notably for types referred to as YF-110 and YF-113. This (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/f-113_search2.htm) is a saved version of one for Col. John T. Manclark; the current official bio has those types excised.

This is an interesting read - much supposition, but fascinating for all that. (http://orbat.com/site/andreas/Cover%20Designations%20for%20Classified%20USAF%20Aircraft.ht m) It suggests that YF-110 = MiG 21 and YF-113 = MiG 23, exept that it also suggests it's not as simple as that! :8

[Edited following a Google search for "YF-24" which threw up a link to a discussion by Peter Merlin (http://www.dreamlandresort.com/forum/messages/16410.html) , a previously well-informed commentator on this sort of thing, who says: "There have been at least seven (and as many as 11) classified manned aircraft flown at Groom Lake since the mid 1980s that have yet to be unveiled. "

Still, it could be true. :ok: ]

[Squirrel 41]

DaveW

I believe that the F-110A is better know to all of us as the F-4C; when the USAF took on the Navy Phantom, they had to "improve" (or at least f*ck about with it), and as well as changing the tyres and things, they also changed the designation. After a short period, the Americans got a consistent system and integrated the (previously distinct) USAF and USN designations (IIRC in 1962ish?).

I read somewhere that the higher F-112 to F-116 were captured MiGs; presumably the reason that the F-117 designation was sloted in there.

Out of interest, the F-21 was actually an IAI Kfir C2 leased to the USMC for adversary training in the late 1980s. :D

I'll get my coat.....

S41

[Tarnished]

This: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/index.html

website says:

MiG-21 aircraft acquired by the United States under the Foreign Materiel Acquisition/Exploitation program are designated as the YF-110

and

MiG-23 aircraft acquired by the United States under the Foreign Materiel Acquisition/Exploitation program are designated as the YF-113.

Doesn't answer your question Jacko I'm affraid


T

[DaveW]

Squirrel, I know that.

However, the official designations of these covertly operated aircraft are unlikely to have been chosen to logically follow from what has gone before, or which comes later. The purpose is to deliberately obscure.

After all, there is significant incentive for the designators to confuse the issue, is there not? The fact that the F-4C started life as the "F-110A" doesn't mean that a "YF-110" isn't an entirely different aircraft: especially if "F-110A" is already an obsolete - but relatively recently obsolete - piece of terminology. Clearly an opportunity for some carefully crafted confusion there, I'd guess. Especially within the flight test community, which is where recent aircraft designations are likely to be used; Groom Lake even today is reportedly Detachment 3 of the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards AFB...

To continue this point: If Peter Merlin and AW&ST are correct, the "YF-113" is an entirely different aircraft from the "YF-113G" - one is a MiG 23 and the other is a US black technology demonstrator: That confusion is obviously deliberate, to hide the existence of a programme.

[DaveW]

YF-110 :cool:

http://area51specialprojects.com/havedrill/havedoughnutcolor1.jpg

(Sorry Jacko - Hijacking a YF-24 discussion with history!)

[tonyosborne]

I thought there was only one person who had flown both the YF-23 and the F-22/F/A-22 but he always refused to compare the two in public...

[Jackonicko]

YF-24, not YF-23.

Dave W,

You're not THAT Dave W? Formerly of Nosworthy?

If so ......

xxx

[tonyosborne]

YF-24, not YF-23

Apologies Jacko, I was merely suggesting that it probably isn't a spelling mistake as Rakshasa pointed out...

Whoa, Black Omega. followed closely by Black Cadillacs have pulled outside the dooorrrr...!!!

[DaveW]

No, that's not me - so keep yer lips to yerself. :}

[dmanton300]

Out of interest, the F-21 was actually an IAI Kfir C2 leased to the USMC for adversary training in the late 1980s.

I got a bigger anorak than you buddy. The F-21 was actually a Kfir C1 not a C2. It lacked the dogtooth leading edge and had very small canards that were added to the C1 fleet sometime after the C2 with it's bigger canards entered service. Sometimes referred to as the Kfir see-one-and-a-half.

[MostlyHarmless]

Ground attack variant of F/A-22?
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/forum/messages/16442.html

Obviously a reputable source :=

[Spurlash2]

It's probably worth pointing out that the 'Y' designation points to an aircrafts experimental status. The YC 14 and YC 15 competition to replace the C130 in the 70's, sticks in my mind for some obscure reason :8

[mystic_meg]

The YC 14 and YC 15 competition to replace the C130 in the 70's, sticks in my mind for some obscure reason

Well, it's stuck there for the wrong reason - the YC-14 and YC-15 competition led to the C-17, (eventually) At least 1 of the YC-15s survives in the 'boneyard' at Davis Monthan AFB

[Spurlash2]

Mystic,

Replacement for C130 link (http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/amst.asp)

You're correct that it eventually led to development of the C17, but the link above confirms my original assertion that the flyoff was for the C130 replacement.

Edited for spelling. Damn my incorrect dictionary.

[mystic_meg]

ISC (I sit corrected!)
Please accept my humblest apologies;)

[Tarnished]

Pedantic mode set to armed:

The "Y" designation actually means "prototype" -- not fully productionized, whereas the "X" designation is for "experimental".

Depends upon the build standard and the rules under which it is flown. (TP or non-TP)

I assume that prototype means that there is a plan to put it into production whereas an experimental platform is primarily for research at the moment but could result in greater things.

I feel that there are times when the "wrong" use has been made of X and Y designations perhaps to muddy the waters.

Tarnished

All made clear in here:
http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/afi16-401(i).pdf

[Jackonicko]

So if the LWF contenders were YF-16 and YF-17, AX contenders were YA-9 and YA-10, and ATF were YF-22 and YF-23, then do you think the JSF demonstrators should really have been X-32 and X-35?

[DaveW]

The answer to this question given at the time (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/x-32-test.htm) was:

The JSF Concept Demonstration Program is not meant to be a competitive fly-off. The Boeing JSF X-32 and Lockheed Martin JSF X-35 are not prototypes – they are technology demonstrators, hence the "X" designation, as opposed to the "Y" designation used for aircraft such as the YF-22 and the YF-23 (prototypes for the F-22).

Doesn't explain why the winner became the "F-35" though. This thread may explain why it wasn't the "F-24", however; perhaps that designation was already taken.

Thinking further: You could imagine a scenario where the DOD didn't wish to invite rampant speculation about existence of a missing aircraft if the JSF designation had been announced as "F-25"; remember the fuss when there was a gap between F/A-18 and F-20 (Tigershark)?

So why not leap straight to 35, and leave lots of other handy holes in the system to be filled within the black world? There you go - problem solved :}

[John Farley]

At least 1 of the YC-15s

I think you will find there was only one.

It was 'SC1' (whereas the YC-14 was the 'P1127') of that competition