Union Flag

[Griz]

Sad question of the year (and probably showing my ignorance)

Why would a Union Flag be flying on a Stn instead of the RAF Ensign?

[Green Flash]

Trafalgar Day? Maybe a Royal proclamation or whatever it's called ordering all establishments to fly the Union Flag to mark the day?

[mbga9pgf]

Asked the snowdrop tonight after I saluted it.. Its for traf. Day. It was up yesterday and will also be up tommorrow.

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Union Jack - the correct name is Union Jack
Ignore this stuff and nonsense about being on a "jack pole"
For confirmation see the 1908 Act of Parliament

Note to self - get out more

[Green Flash]

Sir P

I stand corrected, Jack it is!

Er, why? :confused:

[Farmer 1]

Flag or Jack, isn't it amazing, and depressing, how many British people do not know the correct orientation for it? Probably the same people do not know how to spell Britannia. To see the correct version of each, it's usually simpler to go abroad.

[Onan the Clumsy]

how many British people do not know the correct orientation for it? well, it's not like I haven't tried to learn it. I do wish they'd have designed an easier one though...like Japan.


Did you know that if you hang the Stars and Stripes from the poley side (whose name I forget) you show the reverse side, so as to keep the stars in the top left hand corner?


Dashed awkward things really flags. I think the French have the right idea, simple to make and not much chance of hanging it upside down. If there was another revolution or sporting victory, you could just gather some tablecloths and sheets and some safety pins and viola...instant mob scene. Us and the Americans whould still be cutting things out when the flames were turning to embers.

[ZH875]

I think the French have the right idea, simple to make and not much chance of hanging it upside down Agree, a white square looks the same whatever you do with it.

[SASless]

Simple piece of cloth these flags. Ever ask a Veteran if he thought that so?


I turn to the words John McCain wrote in praise of Mike Christian, a Navy colleague and fellow POW who was a roommate of sorts at the Hanoi Hilton. Sen. McCain wrote about Mike in his autobiography, “Faith of My Fathers.”

“In 1971, the North Vietnamese moved us from conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change…

“One of the men moved into my cell was Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Albama. He did not wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy…He became a Naval flying officer and was shot down and captured in 1967…

“The uniforms we wore in prison consisted of a blue short-sleeved shirt, trousers that looked like pajama trousers, and rubber sandals that were made out of automobile tires…

“As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves, and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a piece of white cloth and a piece of red cloth and fashioned himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he sewed the American flag on the inside of his shirt.

“Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike’s shirt on the wall of our cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know that saying the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important or meaningful part of our day now, but I can assure you that – for those men in that stark prison cell – it was indeed the most important and meaningful event of our day.

“One day, the Vietnamese searched our cell and discovered Mike’s shirt with the flag sewn inside. That evening, they returned… and beat Mike severely for the next couple of hours. Then they opened the door of the cell and threw him back inside. He was not in good shape…

“After things quieted down, I went to go to sleep. As I did, I happened to look in the corner of the room. Sitting there beneath a dim light bulb with a piece of white cloth, a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle was my friend, Mike Christian. Sitting there, with his eyes almost shut from his beating, making another American flag. He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making the flag because he knew how important it was for us to be able to pledge our allegiance to our flag and our country.”

A second story....

http://www.tsra.com/flag.htm

[Griz]

Sir Percy

Yes I believe it was 1908 that parliament decreed that the Union Jack could be regarded as the national flag, :8 but it was a Liberal government and we all know the boll***s they talk.

Until then I thought it was only referred to as "Jack" if it was on a RN boat :p.

[average pilot]

Taken from a website about "How to draw the Union Jack — accurately"

"It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that “the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag”.
However, the Royal Navy disagrees:

The national flag of the United Kingdom is worn as a Jack at the bow by all HM ships in commission when alongside or when ‘dressed overall’. This is the only occasion when it is correctly called the Union Jack, although it is generally known by this name through common usage. It is also flown during Courts Martial and is the Distinguishing Flag of an Admiral of the Fleet.
The author enquired of the Royal Navy about this apparent disagreement, asking which of the Flag Institute and the Royal Navy is right? The Naval Historic Branch, of 3-5 Great Scotland Yard London SW1A 2HW, answered as follows:

Both and neither. A jack is a sea flag, a small flag, generally rather square in its proportions, flown from a flagstaff rigged on the bowsprit or stem of the vessel. The earliest known reference to a ‘jack’ of such a type occurs in 1633, the first reference to the Union (rather than the ‘Britain’ or ‘British’ flag) dating from 1625 - the Union Flag and the naval jack are much the same age. The jack was initially simply a particular instance of the Union Flag, but as the distinctive flag of warships it quickly became an exceptionally well-known instance. Technically, all Union Jacks are Union Flags, but not vice versa. It is a fine point and one that was much argued over, but it is beyond question that the habit of treating the two terms as interchangeable developed early, and it would not be difficult to multiply instances of individuals who undoubtedly did understand the distinction nevertheless following common usage and using the term Union Jack when Union Flag is clearly meant.
The RN website is quite right in that the Union Jack flown in the bows of commissioned ships is the only one which really is a jack (unless you count the white-bordered pilot jack), but not quite so on that being the only occasion when it is ‘correctly’ so called - because the Flag Institute is right that the use of Union Jack to mean any Union Flag has been sanctioned both by the Admiralty and by Parliament. Equally, it is questionable to suggest that the distinction between Union Jack and Union Flag is of particularly recent origin - the Union Flag was also employed as a command flag, and there was (and is!) a necessary differentiation to be made, so it is possible that both websites could have chosen their words better, but it would also be difficult to avoid questions like this arising without going into quite inordinate detail. "

[southside]

Quite correct. Its only a Union Jack if it is flown from a Jack Staff. If it is flown from a flagpole then its a Union Flag.

[teeteringhead]

poley side (whose name I forget) "poley" side is "the hoist" - other side is "the fly"

... must get out more ....



Simple piece of cloth these flags ...

"A moth-eaten rag on a worm-riddled pole
Does not seem likely 'twould stir a man's soul.

But the deeds that were done 'neath that moth-eaten rag
When the pole was a staff; and the rag was a flag!"

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

average pilot: thanks for posting that

Confirms what I had been told I think: According to Parliament the Union Jack is the correct name for the national flag whether it is flown from a jack, mast, bedroom window, or painted on some fat kevball-fan chav's belly

Only the RN think otherwise - and they are wrong according to the 1908 Act but as Griz points out - it was a Wiberal government what introduced the act

[Farmer 1]

I was rather hoping some Yank or other would come into this thread to give their four cents' worth on the term in question. I visited the U.S. recently, and part of the itinerary was U.S.S. Nautilus, the first submarine to transit underneath the ice at the North Pole.

Short break for pub quiz question: How thick is the ice at the North Pole?

Now, where was I? Ah, yes, one of the flags / jacks / whatever the boat was proudly flying was what I, as a Brit, would describe as the Stars and Stripes without the Stars, but with a snake, and the motto, "Don't Tread on Me". I had seen it before, on the U.S.S. Constitution, so I asked about it.

I was informed, "It's our first Union Jack."

It sort of follows logic - Union, i.e. the U.S., Jack, i.e. flag (landlubber's term) on a pole. Unfortunately, I did not have the opportunity to enquire further, but can anyone give me the lowdown, please?

[Talking Radalt]

According to Parliament the Union Jack is the correct name for the national flag whether it is flown from a jack, mast, bedroom window, or painted on some fat kevball-fan chav's belly

And how about wrapped around Geri? :D
http://www.leninimports.com/geri_halliwell_gallery_15.jpg



PS How depressing...After many failed attempts to post an image in the cap comp thread, THIS one decides to work :(

[rugmuncher]

Quote/Farmer1
"I was rather hoping some Yank or other would come into this thread to give their four cents' worth on the term in question."

Hmmm, It's hard to login when you are in the middle of a hurricane and have no power,,,,:p

AND ' trying to put food on your children'

http://crawfordpeace.nfshost.com/files/images/bush_flag_desecration.jpg

[DaveyBoy]

Farmer1: The Spams are flying it on all their floaty things now instead of their current Union Jack (which is the stars bit of the Stars and Stripes). See http://www.navyjack.info/ for the history and http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeohzt4/Seaflags/ensign/Ensign.html for the current policy.

Dave

[XWalterDriver]

Vexellogy rules ....... OK.

It would help if I spelt it correctly - sorry!

Vexellology, you bunch of vexellologists!

[JessTheDog]

Are you sure someone hasn't cut the light blue bit off the Ensign in a very tasteless prank?

[DaveyBoy]

XWalterDriver: Or even vexillology :ok:

[XWalterDriver]

Must learn to use that spil chocker correctly. :\

[tug3]

Right You Lot!

For everything you ever wanted to know about it, from the source most likely to know, click the link below!

rgds
T3

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page398.asp

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/travesmilies/flaggen1/smilie_flagge3.gif

[Pierre Argh]

May as well have my six-pen'orth. when Sir P quotes Acts dating back to 1908 he does not IMHO establish in such that the Union Jack is to be called that as per se... simply that this flag is to be used as the National Flag. I'm still with the Union Flag arguement myself.

[MightyGem]

For everything you ever wanted to know about it, from the source most likely to know, click the link below!
I'd always gone with the Navy version, ie only the Union "Jack" when flown from the jackstaff on a ship, and then David Starkey mentioned the connection with James I in his recent series on the monarchy.

However, all is not correct on that website. While it is true that line infantry battalions have a Union Flag as their Queens/Kings Colour(to show loyalty to the monarch) and a Regimental Colour of their regimental colour, the Foot Guards battalions have their Queens Colour of crimson(as their loyalty is never doubted), and their Regimental Colour is the Union Flag.

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Well, I might be wrong but I think it highly unlikely; just isn't my style.
Incidentally, which American state still flies the Union Jack?
:8

[ORAC]

Hawaii, and would still be a monarchy, but for some foul scullduggery. Should bring it back as tourist attraction, and t´would show up the rest of them..... :ok:

[JessTheDog]

Simple piece of cloth these flags. Ever ask a Veteran if he thought that so?


http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2003/images/desecrator.jpg