Is this legal

[Barcadi]

Hello
i've zero experience n' want to b a commercial airline pilot

got an offer from a relative who's a pilot n' also owns a courrier company..he said i can learn the basic to get PPL w/him n' his friend as apart from being captain they r also instructures

then he'll ask his pilot friends to put me on their flights to gain hours for CPL

after that i'll fly for his courrier to gain 1500 hrs for ATPL

anybody know if its legal to do this...its in Florida btw

he said this way i'll pay for only 15,000 $

want to gain JAR license but cant afford so think will do his way then convert later....any comment would b really appreciated

thx so much

[Glide Perfectionist]

This must be a wind up!

[helicopter-redeye]

Anything with irregular capitalisation has to be ....

g-r:)

[Barcadi]

ohh.....

not good then??:bored:

[Barcadi]

Hello

first of all i know this forum is for trained pilot students but would love to ask opinion from u guys who have been there n' might have some idea about my dilemma

i want to get JAR license but can not afford it...so think about doing FAA n' convert it later

then i got an offer from my relative who's a captain in florida...he said due to my financial situation which is not good at all he'll help me out by putting me in his friend's school to get PPL....then will ask his pilot friends to let me fly w/them when they go on a flight to gain hours for CPL ( i guess it'll b courrier flight or sth)....after that will fly for his courrier company to get 1500 hrs for ATPL

he said by doing it this way i'll need only 15000 $...which leaves me enough saving in the bank for the JAR conversion ( 20000 $ i heard)

am now 27 so time's running up for starting....would really appreciate any comment on this

regards

[Atreyu]

"at all he'll help me out by putting me in his friend's school to get PPL....then will ask his pilot friends to let me fly w/them when they go on a flight to gain hours for CPL"

unsure of FAA rules but JAR states that a PPL pilot must contribute half or more of the cost towards the hire of the aircraft. Also i would question the legalities of flying a either a public transport or commerical frieght plane, however big or small. please people chip in but I thought the AOC of a commercial aircraft was for company, licensed crews only, unless for instruction or hire purposes. May be wrong :confused:

my two pennies worth anyway

x-Atreyu-x

and you need 1500 hours to unfreeze an ATPL, i\'m pretty sure its the same in the states, frozen or fATPL can be issued in the minimum training hours which is like 230 or 240 something like that

[Paul_atp]

Well this my 2 cents:

I trained in the USA and converted to CAA (nowJAR) bear in mind it was 18years ago.

Having a friend or any other means of obtaining free flight time is of course incredibly useful and great fun. BUT remember that the minimum flight times towards the FAA licences are PIC !

Sharing costs in the PPL arena.. read the rules very carefully.

I never turned down a free flight during my training but getting PIC time for free.. tough ! until you have your FAA commercial.
250 hours PIC. OK so ATP (FAA) 1500 hrs PIC ! Getting PIC time in a commercial operation with a wet ink commercial licence only with the most ignorant or most generous insurance company.

I chose the Flight Instructor route. I had no problem getting a CFI job. I got my time (avg 60 hrs. a month and got paid. I got to know people at the GA airport in NJ where I taught. I flew jump planes and did traffic reporting in EWR's airspace (which was "interesting" to say the least.) Then I started flying right seat in a Navajo (Part91) and when the Navajo PIC moved up, I got his seat and his 10 bucks an hour. I never gave up teaching till I had the FAA.ATP.. and often I would run into the 100 hr a month barrier. I built my time very fast. The rest is history! ooo except the part about converting to CAA.

One piece of REALLY REALLY good advice. Get a UK medical certificate NOW. If you intend to work in Europe. I didn't. I am grounded in the UK with a class 2 in the USA !!!!!
If I had to do it over, I would do all my training in the UK.

As if the last para weren't words of warning, this post does not tell the whole story. Believe me the trials and tribulations would fill a book. Good luckl

Regards Paul.
"To finish first, first you must finish"

[-IBLB-]

Having a friend or any other means of obtaining free flight time is of course incredibly useful and great fun. BUT remember that the minimum flight times towards the FAA licences are PIC !

Sharing costs in the PPL arena.. read the rules very carefully.

I never turned down a free flight during my training but getting PIC time for free.. tough ! until you have your FAA commercial.
250 hours PIC. OK so ATP (FAA) 1500 hrs PIC ! Getting PIC time in a commercial operation with a wet ink commercial licence only with the most ignorant or most generous insurance company.

I chose the Flight Instructor route. I had no problem getting a CFI job. I got my time (avg 60 hrs. a month and got paid. I got to know people at the GA airport in NJ where I taught. I flew jump planes and did traffic reporting in EWR's airspace (which was "interesting" to say the least.) Then I started flying right seat in a Navajo (Part91) and when the Navajo PIC moved up, I got his seat and his 10 bucks an hour. I never gave up teaching till I had the FAA.ATP.. and often I would run into the 100 hr a month barrier. I built my time very fast. The rest is history! ooo except the part about converting to CAA.!

Maybe this was the case 18 years ago, but is sure is not like this anymore.

CPL ASEL/AMEL requires 250 TOTAL time, of which 100 PIC. see 14CFR61.129 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8f52f46090f4feafdb8a1494d908b930&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.6.1.5)
ATPL ASEL/AMEL requires 1500 TOTAL time, of which 250 PIC, or acting PIC. see 14CFR61.159 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=8f52f46090f4feafdb8a1494d908b930&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.7.1.6)


Hello
i've zero experience n' want to b a commercial airline pilot

got an offer from a relative who's a pilot n' also owns a courrier company..he said i can learn the basic to get PPL w/him n' his friend as apart from being captain they r also instructures

then he'll ask his pilot friends to put me on their flights to gain hours for CPL

after that i'll fly for his courrier to gain 1500 hrs for ATPL

anybody know if its legal to do this...its in Florida btw

he said this way i'll pay for only 15,000 $

want to gain JAR license but cant afford so think will do his way then convert later....any comment would b really appreciated

thx so much

Remember that one of the limitations of a FAA PPL is that you have to pay the pro rata share of the flight. That means that if you are flying flights from your friends, technically, you have to pay atleast the price of the flight divided by the amount of people flying in the plane.

If the people you fly with are instructors, then technically you can log the hours as instruction AND as Pilot in Command once you have a PPL and are rated & current on the plane. However, 250hrs total time, of which 230 dual will definitely raise questions on checkrides and interviews.
The other things is that it will probably be a 135 company, and you don't meet the PIC requirements.

So all in all, this will be tricky, and if legal, borderline. Be careful.

-IBLB-

[Barcadi]

thx for all the replies

this might sound naive....but if its legal then it'd b ok right
will look into it

thx

[Barcadi]

just forgot to post last time

what is 135 company....asked my pilot friends even them dont know!!
searched from googles n' gathered that its kinda goods tranfering company...correct??

regards

[ConcreteFloater]

Hello Barcadi.

Just a minor warning. As far as I understand, some of the hours gained and logged as PIC in the FAA (US) system will NOT be recognised by the CAA towards your JAA (European) CPL. I have heard of cases where people have been lured towards seemingly great hour-building deals in the US which, under the FAA system are valid, only to come back to the UK and discover that some of their time and money was wasted. This is all to do with how each authority define Pilot In Command.

Very simply; under JAA to log PIC time you have to be the sole operator of an aircraft certified for single pilot operations. If there is another pilot with you he can NOT log the time at all as only one of you is technically flying the airoplane. If the other pilot with you is an instructor and is logging the time as PIC the you can only log time as Dual, ie: under training.

For the issue of a JAA CPL you will have to have logged 150+ hours total flying time of which at least 100 hours must be PIC as recognised by JAA.

May I suggest three things: Firstly, carry two log-books. One to log your time as defined by the FAA, the other to log exactly the same flights but as defined by JAA. To the best of my knowledge this is perfectly acceptable and will help you understand your hour-building totals as you go. Each authority also like you to log slightly different details of each flight. Obviously, the FAA will only be interested in one book and the CAA/JAA the other.

My second suggestion is to contact the CAA (UKs Civil Aviation Authority) who will be more than happy to advise you about their exact requirements and definitions on all of this, including the 'can someone lend me an aircraft for free' issue... knowing my luck, they'll completely correct all of the babble that I have just written.

Finally. This site is fantastic, but only use it as a springboard and reference for your own thorough research. I am only telling you the above information, to the extent of my knowledge and understanding or your situation, as are fellow members, and our intentions are always good. However the pure facts will only come from the two authorities themselves and speaking to them, once you have a basic understanding, could save you a lot of worry and of course, money.

Good luck with your ambitions,


ConcreteFloater.

...Also just saw this:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=195331

It may help!

CF

[Barcadi]

ths for the reply...really helpful!

as to clarify the situation more....am copying an e-mail my pilot relative sent me...even against my belief i wont b able to give names of school n' airport due to personal reason

''My dear
the name of the school is X and is located at Y Airport not too
far from where we live, with this school you will do the
private license, once you have this license in hand we
can proceed to the next step, multiengine will be done
at Z airport with another of my friends and then we will
get back to X school to complete your instrument training

from there you will have to complete 200 hs of flying many
of them of cross country fly this will be accomplish with
some people that I know they have to fly almost every day
to deliver mail, news papers and goods you will be flying
as second pilot but you will be able to log the time, mean
while you will have to prepare for the written test for
the commercial license for wich I can prepare you myself is
only one day test and is done in any of the authorized
schools I know several of them,

as per flying with us that
will not be a problem because we have presence in
several countries around, them we can validate your license
in any of them and put you as a foreign pilot with US
license and that will complied with all the requirements''

this relative is a great guy n' i've no doubt in him or his intention whatsoever....the problem is he's reaching his retirement n' am afriad he might not b current w/all the rules esp legal stuffs...esp the PIC issue

as becoming a pilot is a big risk would love to make sure i chose the right path....any opinions would b much appreciated

regards