View Full Version : Jabiru's! Way to go?
Runway37
19th Oct 2005, 05:39
Hi Everyone,
I've been reading for ages but never posted so here goes...
I've been hiring planes for years and spending a forture and have done the numbers stacks of times and decided to buy a plane... so I don't need convincing that it's not cost effective, I know what it's all about. My question is not rather what it will cost to own, but whether it's a good private aircraft.
I narrowed it down to a Jabiru J400 or J430, but I'm not sure which one, or whether to get one at all...
They seem to have some fairly impressive figures, especially the J400. Around 120-125 knots cruise on 20-21 lph, with a 6 hour range (nil reserves) on 140 litres and about a 360kg usable load. Looking around and reading, even an SR20 barely has this size useful load. Can anyone confirm these figures?
Apparently the J430 has a shorter takeoff (and landing) because of the longer wing (5ft?), and is a little slower, but I'm not sure how much slower.
So does anyone have any experience with the J series either in the long or short wing? Is it a crazy idea... I realise I have to build it, buy used or factory assist and that's not a problem for me.
Is 360kg's a good useful / comparable weight? I usually carry just 2 or perhaps 3 persons.
I also like the idea that it's Australian made; surely that would have to be a bonus when obtaining spare parts...
Suggestions welcome, especially if anyone out there owns or has experience in operating one....
THANKS.
Aerodynamisist
19th Oct 2005, 07:30
Why not head up to bundy and fly them both, make your decision from there.
Runway37
19th Oct 2005, 07:35
Yeah, it's not a bad idea and I've actually done that, but I'm of the belief that the demo model has a tricked up engine and that baby leaps off the ground in almost no distance. I'd also heard that from others where they've bought one and found it was nowhere near as good as the demonstrator.
I guess visting the factory is like reading the new Cessna brochure - it sounds like the ants-pants when you read about it and it looks good on paper.
I was interested in hearing from an owner or someone with decent experience in one that can give an unbiased view....
Ultralights
19th Oct 2005, 08:09
dont forget a home built version will almost always be heavier and slower then the factory built demo... there are 2 jabs i regularly fly out of Sydney, 1 factory built, almost 2000Hrs on her, and the other is a home built version, the factory model flies faster without spats, stalls straight and generally feels nicer dispite its 2000 airframe hrs.
the homebuilt version, only has 200 hrs on her, flies 5 kts slower, has wheel spats, and will always voilently drop a wing in a stall, apart from the builder, both aricraft are identical.
if you want to test fly a real world version of the same aircraft, go an hire one for a few hrs!
Runway37
19th Oct 2005, 10:32
Hmmm... don't think I can hire a J400/430 coz you can't put 'em online. Would be nice to hear from someone who has one...
ULTRALIGHTS
your point is valid ....to a point, but do not try to tar all with one brush!!
Some variations alone come from a timber prop. Ask many an old vintage plane owner. I have had two "identical" props and they are so different in terms of RPM on ground roll and climb performance it is not funny! Seriosly NOT FUNNY!
Anyway i have found that unless the props are good and the Tacho is calibrated properly (Many vary by 100 or so RPM) you would be hard pressed to be able to really qualify differences.
Anyway, Mr Runway 10 degrees over North , I have the long wing version, can't you guess, and it flies about 3 to 5 knots slower, TAS 117 at around a in flight cruise of 21LPH and an average of 20LPH day in day out!
I can burn off a 172 or Warrior any day, in cruise and in climb, carry a similar or better weight with less runway, and at about 1/3rd the operating cost and less tha 1/3rd the investment, for a new one with all the glass goodies like I have.
I even know a guy up here that has one with 3 axis auto pilot!!!
Other than that get your wallet out and go hard!
Cheers
J:ok:
8Hrs-Bottle2Throttle
19th Oct 2005, 12:09
I flew in a J400 at Narromine a couple of weeks ago at the Wright Flyer Launch / Airshow. The owner was a really nice guy and let me have a fly (I have a PPL). It was great performer! It did the most wicked wingovers; I'd love to throw in a barrel-roll. A great cross-country machine at 120+ knots for those long drinking weekends away with your mates. Plenty of room in the back seats for slabs.
On the way back we joined cross-wind behind a clapped out Warrior at about 140 knots and left him in our wake! From only a mile out we were tying down and cracking open our beers when he taxiied in. I was most impressed! We climbed out 2-up with full fuel at 100 knots indicating over 800+fpm. You wouldn't do that in a Warrior / 172 / Archer, etc - it gets my vote. This one had the full NVFR set-up too, although I don't think it gets used for that much. Great for getting home after sunset when you're a tad bit late.
In summary a nice machine - thanks to the owner for the ride. When I find a little more spare cash I will start a project.
FL_RoofTop
20th Oct 2005, 00:22
Cool! Blow the doors of that crappy tinny Warrior. Fibreglass aircraft are the ONLY way to go these days. Lightweight, fast and economical and with Avgas upwards of $1.40 - $1.50 it's gotta be the way to go. Fossil fuels won't last forever.
To the practiced eyes of a TP if a GA aircraft looks nice then it usually flies nicely too. The Jabaru is indeed a nice looker.
Had one assessment flight in a Jabaru out of the factory at Bundaberg about 7/8 years ago.
Found 23 mostly minor criticisms and a couple of major ones which the designers have mostly fixed by now.
One of the major ones was the throttle/power lever under the seat between your legs. Extraordinary!!! I heartell that has now been corrected.
Had a close look at the manufacturing of airframe and a developmental engine and was impressed with the solid technical
expertise of the enthusiastic design and building team.
Having come from TPing on heavies the Jabiru was my early introduction to a lighty's low inertia when you pull the power off in a climb. Wow - but don't you have to be quick with the pitch over as the speed plummets back.
That Jabiru which performed at Narromine on 1 Oct must have had much more power than the one I flew at Bundy.
Hi Milt
Can't help but be dragged back into this one, everybody criticises the throttle being on the seat face between your knees, however who said it should be sticking out of the dash. Motor cycles are a twist grip, cars under your right foot, weed eaters are a lever. The Jabiru throttle is out of harms way (unless you kick it which is hard), leaves room in the cabin for maps to be opened etc.
When I compare it to the tangled mess you had in a 172 with throttle & mixture poking out of the dash as you try to fold a chart under neath the yokes, give me the jab!
As for the speed, the bigger 4 seater with the six in it goes harder than the little four cylinders you would have flown. 140 knots is probably full bore and slightly down hill, but you certainly can burn off most others in the C172/Warrior class.
J:ok:
J430
Good to hear that you can find advantages in having a throttle between your legs. I hear that the girls don't like it too much!
As an old and bold senior USAF TP once said to a bunch of us TPs at the Boscombe Down flight test centre as he sucked on his big cigar.
"Goddam it guys - if you put all of the flight instruments unlit beneath the seat and gave the pilot a book of matches he would eventually be able to land the thing at night."
Where would you PREFER to have the Jabiru throttle?
Somewhere near your right foot would be interesting.
We TPs do try hard with standardisation.
To answer your question......Wide Open throttle.:p
But in all seriousness its fine where it is! My wife does not mind it there except that she finds it hard to reach, but she'll get used to it!
Anyway under the right foot would be good, then we could get rid of one of those foot rests on the floor and save some weight.:}
Anyway its a pretty fine thing to fly, cheap to run and even if its not a Cirrus, its not bad value.
Cheers!
J:ok:
Ultralights
20th Oct 2005, 08:05
Actually i love the throttle under the seat! in all seriousness, being a guy, it feels natural to have your hand down there! :}
but my partner has found one drawback that will quickly get the pulse up in cruise, on more than one occasion the wife has put her handbag on the floor, when the time comes for a drink, she grabbes the bag, which occasionally grabs the throttle and quickly pulls it back to idle as she puts the bag on her lap. when she does this i make sure SHE sleeps on the couch...
J430 i didnt think of the difference in timber props, coming from a GA background, ist not one of the priorities when thinking of performance differences. but the wing drop on final gets my attention, been 1 occasion during the flare, the gear about 1 ft above the deck, and the wing drops. fortunatly when this happened i was landing on a grass strip and the lack of traction made the landing on 1 wheel less of a drama, quite smooth actually.
8 yrs and over 2000 training hrs, have proven the strength of the Jabiru design.. one of the best aircraft to ever come out of Oz.
Vacant Towers
20th Oct 2005, 11:00
I think I now understand why a mate with a Jab has a silly look on his face when returns from a solo flight:E
VT
VT
I gather your mate has a throttle and mixture control onhis Jab:} the rest of us have a compensating carby!
None of that sort of behaviour in our Jab!! The sheep skin covers cost too much...
Ultralights, the wing dropping is interesting, if we stall ours and that is if you can get it to stall it just mushes forward and down, you would have to give it a flick to get a wing drop, I heard they had a bit of effort to do the spin tests to mee the UK spec's, just because they were hard to get spinning. But no two Boeings are exactly the same either!
So will we see you at Wagga?
J:ok:
Ultralights
21st Oct 2005, 00:00
Unfortunatly i cant make it to Wagga, i would love it though, i even Missed Narromine both times this year, all my spare cash and time is spent on manufaturing cri cri parts, and preparing to build 2 aircraft.. next year i will have my new bike so i will enjoy a long ride to both destinations for the weekends, almost, but not quite the same as flying....
come to think of it, booking a Jab for Narromine next year now is an option
8Hrs-Bottle2Throttle
25th Oct 2005, 06:10
Wagga should be good on the weekend. Hopefully lots of the U/L's will go that are normally at Narromine when the SAAA gig is on at Easter. Hopefully it's not just another RV fly-in like the last 2 years. There's too many of them around.
Centaurus
26th Oct 2005, 14:13
A violent wing drop at point of stall sounds like a recipe for disaster. Does the certification allow that sort of thing? Surely there is a design defect here.
Chimbu chuckles
26th Oct 2005, 17:16
Hmmm...if I ever sell my Bonanza....this or a Pitts S2a?
Barrows Bearhawk (http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepBearhawk260.html)
Ultralights
26th Oct 2005, 22:02
A violent wing drop at point of stall sounds like a recipe for disaster. Does the certification allow that sort of thing? Surely there is a design defect here.
The Jab with the wing drop issue is the Homebuilt version...
Ultralights
Might be a brave statement to make old chap. The certified version is almost identical, wing etc. Models have advanced over time with some certified and some others tested extensively to meet UK and US standards for various markets.
I fly the 4 seater and in my experience a stall is a very boring almost non event. When the factory had to do some hundreds of spin tests on the J400 (same wing as smaller a/c) they would stall it at great height and really had to try hard to get it to do anything nasty. Big boot fulls of rudder and aileron inputs were required to iniate their tests.
Not saying you did not experience it, just balancing the debate.
Might add there are plenty of a/c that are certified and behave much worse than the Jabiru. Some Beech models spring to mind...
By the way I had the privelege of flying with a retired Roulette on the weekend. He was test flying a friends J400 and he was impressed on how well it behaved so I would have to give them a Big Tick.
Cheers
J430:ok:
Squawk7700
28th Oct 2005, 01:19
Jabs don't drop wings when they stall. If they do, it's the nut behind the stick!
Ultralights
28th Oct 2005, 02:07
I was initially trying to highlight the fact that there will be a difference between the Certified factory produced Jab, and the homebuilt version, even though the wing drops in the homebuilt, it is easy to corrcet. yet the same aircraft that is factory built is as you have described, the stall is a non event, and you need a very high nose up attitude to get a decent break in the stall.
My original post was to highlight the fact that your homebuilt or purchased aircraft will most likely not perform as the same as the factory demonstrator aircraft..
I still fly the homebuilt aircrat, as i know the Owner maintains it to a very hight standard, and trust the aircraft jast as much as i do the factory one.
speaking of which, its time to go for a fly.
I love my Jab, but today I flew alongside an Esqual, and he was just poking along, I had the Jab wound up just to keep with him.
I think the boys in bundy need a J480.....A J fuse with the 8 cylinder!!!!
J:{
He can't carry the 4 people or the same load for anywhere as far so for me its not in the race..... but gee its quick!