BBC 10 O'Clock News 17&18 Oct (Merged)

[BigginAgain]

The chaps from the Beeb have been around the bazaars with cameras over the last few weeks. I believe that there will be short items tonight and tomorrow night on the BBC 10 O'Clock News regarding UK QRA(I) and Typhoon respectively.

Should have been on last week but was put back because of the Earthquake in Asia.

It will be interesting to see what (if any) spin they put on it.

BA

[Hueymeister]

Nice bit of footage...saw one of my ex-studes....hello Helen...if you read this, pse drop me a line.

HM

[chrisburden21]

Just saw it,

Gives you a real idea of the intensity still looming following the terrorist attacks.

Tomorrow should be a good one.

[serf]

thought they were a bit slow getting to the jet - have the new fitness tests not been introduced yet!

[WebPilot]

10 minutes to scramble? Slackers.

[frodo_monkey]

A bit slow?!

Don't let the PTIs hear you say that or the OFT will include a new 'run without sleep wearing a rubber suit made by the lowest bidder while trying to wake up sufficiently to remember your own name' test... To be repeated twice a day regularly!

:}

[gadgetbent]

I hope that all civie pilots were forced to watch it!! It might prompt them to stop being so slack on their radios.

I don't know if anyone noticed but it appeared that one of the chaps at Boulmer had an unbelievably small head, almost the size of a Pin Head, with Tin Tin like hair?? Poor chap! ;)

Gadgetbent

[12345]

Is anyone else a little concerned / curious as to why the lead article on the BBC 10 O'Clock news tonight - 17/10 - was all about how ready the RAF is to shoot down a hijacked passenger jet in British airspace?

[Sven Sixtoo]

Mil guys seem okay about the presentation.

Grimly necessary I suspect, but pretty much does for the knights of the air / Captain the Lord Flasheart image, no?

Sven

[Mad Monk]

Very surprised that it was the lead given that this is a World News programme from a UK perspective.
Anyone interested in 'appropriate' response to events within UK airspace probably already know the scenario and information is readily available.
So, is this an 'ease the plebs' puff or an ar'n't we brill Goverment spiel ?
Any of the above choices suggest the BBC have sold out to Bliar control. Which surprises me.
I welcome other viewpoints.

[Bucking Bronco]

I hope that all civie pilots were forced to watch it!! It might prompt them to stop being so slack on their radios. :eek:

So sorry, please accept my most humblest apologies Sir! If I forget to speak to someone then it's probably one of the following excuses...

a) I'm asleep
b) Reading the paper
c) Playing with my PSP
d) Fondling one of the crew
e) Counting pots of cash
f) Looking for the keys to my Porsche

:ok:


FWIW I thought it was a well put together sound bite.

Cheers

BB

[C-dog]

I thought it was strange as well for a lead story until the missus pointed out the 2nd story on the news about bird flu getting closer to home - it's in Greece now.

She reckoned the RAF were going to be employed shooting down incoming birds with flu! :p

[DaveyBoy]

I was worried I might have caught that bird flu the other day...

...

...

...

...

Half-way through the sortie I felt a bit peckish ;)

[Onan the Clumsy]

...then you should have p-p-p-picked up a penguin

[Spartacan]

>>Is anyone else a little concerned / curious as to why the lead article on the BBC 10 O'Clock news tonight - 17/10 - was all about how ready the RAF is to shoot down a hijacked passenger jet in British airspace?<<

Not concerned for my safety personally - ghastly though a terrorist attack is the numbers are hugely in my favour as regards survival. If I tried to roll my own dice and pick a flight that was planned to be hijacked I would fail.

The timing of this news item is just intimidation and spin by the 'Government'. The boys have been on 'Q' for years - why pick October 2005 to frighten everyone again? In any country there are people whose job is to consider the worst case scenario.

It used to be considered appaling to spread alarm and despondency. This 'Government' thrives on it along with other bully boy tactics.

[wf1]

could get a phantom in the air in 5 mins

[Megaton]

At least the radar would still be serviceable by the time you'd put the gear away though.

[Mach the Knife]

Most of us can get an F3 in the air in 5 minutes too. But we have to allow 10 because there are still a number of old, fat and slow (just like the F4) ex Phantom drivers on the force. Lowest common denominator and all that.

[The Green Scopie]

It's not a deterrent if nobody knows about it. High profile to make Terry the Terrorist think twice!

[Maple 01]

Great isn't it? We finally get some positive coverage from the BBC and several PPRuNers claim 'labour spin' and trot out the standard anti-Government line. Sorry Spartacan, the BBC decides what the BBC produces, for once its done a decent job.
(now there’s an organisation that knows how to miss-inform and whip-up hysteria)

Still, nice to see Boulmer again, even nicer not to be there

Love to all in Camp X-ray

[WebPilot]

"could get a phantom in the air in 5 mins"

And a Spitfire in 3! Progress? It's not all it's cracked up to be!

[discostu]

They'll have to up the shuttle run targets.........or get them to do it fully kitted up! :yuk:
Careful what you squawk!

[Lou Scannon]

I thought it strange that the Beeb should have given a routine story No1 slot. With avian flu about it was hardly a slack news day.

I will ask a friend who used to be in the media for his view.

[Wingswinger]

I was intrigued to see that the "squawk box" has not changed since the 1970's.

Also, why did the "beeb" put nicknames under the individuals when they talked instead of rank and proper name? Another sign of our "modern", dumbed-down world?

[Archimedes]

At a guess, the 'Exclusive Access' angle on the story (BBC News worth increased licence fee alone, etc, etc....) might have been a factor in the positioning of the story.

Every other news channel could be (and was) doing the 'We're all going to die! Don't panic if you see a sparrow sneeze!' story, but no one else had been given the opportunity to do a shot with a reporter standing a matter of feet away from an F3.

WS - I assume that OPSEC was a factor in the use of nicknames rather than dumbing down.

[Conan the Librarian]

The fact is, that News and media organisations are now in the business of making news, rather than reporting it and that prominence is given to these "Special reports" by moving them up the news list.

There is nothing radically new with the UK posture (with regard to these "reports") but words such as "Exclusive Access" or the (fill in here) can reveal" etc.etc. or "The (fill in here) today learned" etc. etc. all lend a slightly false immediacy that is essentially spin, on the part of the news organisation - no - Sod it - Media organisation that has produced it.

Goodish and informative piece of film though, it has to be said.

And now, Pprune can exclusively reveal, from sources close to Conan's kettle, that is has been armed with a liquid fuel and that within 45 minutes, has the capability of producing a cup of tea.


Conan

[Zoom]

As Mach and many others will know, it's not the jet itself that takes the time, but all the kit inside that needs to switch on, warm up, align, etc. I should think the crews are as gung-ho about leaping into the sky in seconds flat as they always have been but they just have to wait for all this 'modern technology' to catch up. Shame, really, as it spoils the 'fun' a bit.

I missed last night's report but I look forward to the Typhoon piece tonight.

[Conan the Librarian]

Zoom, it is your lucky day :-)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

the video is currently on the BBC News homepage


Conan

[Groundloop]

Are they so short of manpower in the RAF these days that there is nobody to wash their aircraft. That F3 was absolutely filthy!

[RileyDove]

I should imagine that the 'story' as such is that finally the Typhoon is able to do something! With all the Billions spent on
it's development people like to see what their taxes have been spent on.
In a similar way I guess the Nimrod MRA.4 will appear at
Kinloss and get the 'story' if it's still open by then!

[Squadgy]

Are they so short of manpower in the RAF these days that there is nobody to wash their aircraft. That F3 was absolutely filthy!

Surely a delibrate ploy - compare to the shiney new Typhoon tonight ;)

[bakseetblatherer]

:D Good to see some of my mates from me old Sqn- Hi JC and others! When is the XI closing down bash?

[Tracey Island]

Brian Hanrahan signed off last night's report by stating, "The RAF have declared an ability to shoot down unarmed civilian airliners." The F3 chaps must be really chuffed that nothing more difficult was sent to test them!

Seriously though, to cut down scramble time, why not park the planes next to the threshold rather than in their hardened shelters miles away from the piano keys? Never really understood that if the airbase was completely bombed, how d'you get the jet airborne down the runway anyhow??:hmm:

[Row 12F]

The item had no news content at all yet it came first at a prime news time.

It would be uncharitable to suggest that the BBC is putting this out with guidance, help and scripting from the Government. The reporter Brian Hanrahan asked very questions (such as how often does this happen?) and seemed to mainly give descriptions of what we could all see happening. He was rather muted I thought.

Is the Government preparing us for something they have intelligence on? Perhaps they have spotted another 45 minute event looming? Or is it just to keep us all nervous, fearful and more willing to give up yet another little freedom?

I am not sure it presented a very good picture of our state of readiness - perhaps someone who is up to speed with speed can work out how far a silent plane can get if it takes 5 minutes of silence before an alarm, ten minutes before scrambling off the runway and how many further minutes to locate and be in position to take out the plane? And that does not include time taken waking John Prescott to get permission to blow out of the sky, say, 300 people and a duff radio.

Did not fighter pilots sit outside on deckchairs, reading, drinking tea, surrounded by Labradors, waiting for a third rank actor to ring a bell – and then be airborne in two minutes? Today’s ten minutes seems rather long but I guess it’s the best that can be done.

[raytofclimb]

If we could scratch together a few pounds to have the shelters built near the threshold it would be quicker. As it happened, we used two of the existing HASs and built the Ops building between them.

Even if the shed was by the threshold (ala the old Leuchars ones) then it would screw everything if the wind/runway changed.

Tracey Island: How easy do you think it is to pull up alongside a 747 at 37000ft 0.8Mach in a frigging F3? (not forgetting the transit van hanging off each wing and 8 rockets besides). Then imagine yourself a few miles behind it trying to take out enough engines for it to crash while 300 holiday makers spill out of the wreckage.

Not a dig mate but just cos it aint armed doesn't mean it's an easy target.

Ray

[Soiled Glove]

just cos it aint armed doesn't mean it's an easy target

It would be an easy target to a capable fighter!

First rule of aircraft design: build a decent fighter platform first and hang bombs on it - don't design a bomber platform and try to put missiles on it and then wonder why it struggles to formate on an airliner at 39000ft.

SG

[soddim]

Soiled glove - you spotted the procurers error in one. The F3 was fortunate to be able to get over the alps with a war load - hope the procurers are never that slack again.

[Hammer Head Too]

Launch a Phantom in 5 mins? Took 4 Lightnings to Leuchars in the early 80s for an exersize and during the survival scramble lauched the lot (from the ORP) in under a minute. Tea and toast before the first F4 taxied out.....fun watching them take off though. One straggler appeared 10 minutes after the rest had departed and we thought it was only decent to clap the poor chap onto the runway. We were fairly surprised when he turned directly towards us then swung sharply around and we ended up facing the dirty (and hot) end !! As we scattered behind the power sets he powered in up, blew us and loads of equipment away, kicked it straight, engaged reheat and departed. The final insult was the Nav giving us the bird as they sped away. We'd only just finished laughing and collecting all the ground equipment when ours came back into the circuit. Ring a bell with anyone???

[DEL Mode]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are they so short of manpower in the RAF these days that there is nobody to wash their aircraft. That F3 was absolutely filthy!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Have you not heard..........

Washes have been LEANED.

Person washes aircraft (nice and clean)

Aircraft gets dirty.

Value added steps - NIL.

LEAN solution - Leave aircraft dirty and save on manpower.

[Hammer Head Too]

On a slightly more serious note. Didn't anybody else get the strangest feeling that we were being treated to a non to subtle propagander exersize? Did this warrant prime slot, or was there a targeted audience that this message was designed to deliver a pretty uncompromising view to. I don't mean AQ generally but someone right now. Don't get me wrong. It was great to see the RAF portrayed in such a positive way (especially in light of some of the happenings of late) but I just felt really uneasy watching it. F3 dirty?? Just check out most 700s and you'll find an ADF entry...bring back week-end cleaning parties!! Only joking !!

[Capt Pit Bull]

That F3 was absolutely filthy!

I think there is a lot to be said for a dirty bird ;)

cpb

[N Joe]

Re "All 4 Lightnings in the air in under a minute"

Add "and all back to refuel before the F3 has used up its fin fuel"

(Assumes they're not all limmed these days)

If we add enough comments on the filthy F3, bet SEngO has the boys out washing the aircraft on Friday afternoon!

N Joe

[An Teallach]

No real surprise that a 'shooting down airliners', let's create a climate of fear piece should feature as the lets be seen to be doing something, pee a few billion up the wall ID Cards bill hits the Commons.

Remember, MoD PR is now totally subservient to the NuLabour Central PR machine.

[Soiled Glove]

N Joe

Perhaps last Friday 111 Sqn they were ahead of your suggestion and were trying to wash the aircraft using natural resources when they parked it in the N Sea - I would imagine a 500kt 'power wash' would get the Fin pretty clean! Shame it didn't make it back to show off the clean fin.

SG

Edited to add that DelMode had a similar thought on the F3 crash thread!

[Flatfish]

Just seen the Typhoon piece on the 10 o'clock news.

As indicated by others, not news at all but a fantastic piece of single service PR! Probably thrown in by the Airships to counter all of the T200 PR that the RN is getting at the moment.

Thought it was staggering that not a single one of the pilots talked in terms of capability but just banged on about what a great flying machine it was. Obviously the tax payers are getting remarkable value for money for the jet jockeys to wazz around all day in their shiny steeds.

Also thought that the CO showed a remarkable knowledge of the flying controls .. so much so that Brian Hanrahan had to finish off the sentence (damn those pesky media and their sneaky editing!).

The days of "up tiddly up up" are obviously still alive and well in certain sections of the RAF!

:E

[Soiled Glove]

Just watched the Typhoon report on the BBC News - what a disappointment when compared to the F3 report. Shame that the reporter had to fill-in for the pilot by explaining turning at full back stick to the audience; one pilot stated that the computers stopped the aircraft stalling and was smooth to fly while another stated that it buffeted when turning and 'talked to him' - do these guys fly the same aircraft? I thought the air to air shots were poor with the exception of the rearward video from the display aircraft - jets pulling into the vertical from 1nm away don't make good TV and what was the point of sequentially selecting the burners for 6 secs on the line astern shot - surely that burner technique went out with the ark! Didn't make me as a taxpayer feel that I am getting value for my £49M.

[Vox Populi]

The Typhoon piece was mundane compared to the well crafted QRA report.

But I agree about the placement of last night's report....A profile of a 25 year old military unit, with nothing new about it, given the top spot...

Wasn't it the beeb that gave us "The Power of Nightmares" a series about exactly this sort of scaremongering?

vp

PS What was exclusive about either report? I've seen many tyhphoon interviews and profiles of QRA going back to Phantom days.

[Safeware]

Good PR stuff then.

To answer a few questions,what was the point of sequentially selecting the burners for 6 secs Some of the film was from / of DAs - eg the RAF doesn't have Smokewinders. The sequential reheat was an old issue, following the DA6 crash and resolved through modification. Bit sad that you timed it though :) not a single one of the pilots talked in terms of capability That's becasue it is early days - the aircraft is still at the operational evaluation stage and isn't 'up to speed' like the F3 guys from the night before.

sw

[Unmissable]

I didn't see the QRA piece but 'She who must be obeyed' told me all about it , as did many mates at work. Not one had a bad word, in fact they even praised the section on decision-making by Fighter controllers!!

I saw the Typhoon bit tonight. I thought it was still pretty good PR. It told us that performance-wise it was the best thing since sliced bread (and I have never heard any crew room banter which dictates otherwise); however, it also acknowledged that some were arguing that it's capabilities were too much Cold war orientated. However the final line was something like..'if we need to change its role, then all it requires is a software upgrade'

A simple view on life but exceedingly good way of promoting the jet.

Let's all try and be positive for once. If you slag this report off, then what is the future?? If you promote it then do so as positive spin, ....that we have bought a fantastically peforming jet and that we should be trusted to make the right decisions on procurement in the future'.

If you profess that it is an utter piece of cold war st1TE, then we (the RAF) will never retain enough credibility to buy any next generation bits of kit. (eg F-35)

Tell 'em we're doing a good job, and they will happily stump up taxes to maitain their security.


UNM

[soddim]

Why not just tell it like it is - or are we so spin-biased today that we have to lie?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I take it old Brian didn't ask them about flying into clouds, then? Funny that, especially given that he states the Typhoon has turned out to be "everything that was promised". Or have they fixed that problem, now?

[Pontius Navigator]

in fact they even praised the section on decision-making by Fighter controllers!!

and someone I know couldn't believe they had, or needed, that many fighter controllers.

Didn't see the piece but did they fill all the seats in the bunker just for show?

[HTB]

If all that is required to enable the Typhoon to become a multi-role fighter/bomber/recce aeroplane is a software change, why do we need a highly trained chimp in the front seat? Are all the appropriate hard points/pylons/recce devices permanently fitted?

It must be true, though, because I saw it the much loved and trusted Beeb:O

[Rakshasa]

Lastnights typhoon piece is online as well.


http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=Typhoon+hanrahan&scope=newsukfs&tab=news&x=3&y=7

[FCAF]

Ignorance is bliss eh Pontius? We don't all exist to banter over the airwaves with the likes of you, some of us belong to the Dark Side!

[Bunker Mentality]

and someone I know couldn't believe they had, or needed, that many fighter controllers.

And how many fighter controllers do 'they' need?

Probably more than Typhoon needs Navigators.:p

[Postman Plod]

Dont suppose anyone had managed to MPEG a copy of either / both films? I watched them online, but can't seem to save them as anything other than a playlist!

Would be VERY useful to show my cadets for their Operational Flying classes, and a pretty good resource for us in general!

[tonkatechie]

Missed the QRA report, but saw the Typhoon - very nice advert. Interesting to hear the jockey say it was a capable dogfighter - I thought we weren't getting a gun though??
Regarding the timings, I wouldn't read too deep, I was emailed at work a while ago by someone 'on high' saying it was due to be shown, but then got new emails saying it had been delayed due to the earthquake coverage (or am I missing more of a conspiracy in this???)
Personally I don't think 10 minutes is too bad seeing as it doesn't take long to get anywhere in the UK once airborne (standing by for barrage of abuse from those who know better), although I can vouch for a 6 minute scramble 'somewhere in the southern hemisphere' at stupid-o'clock-at-night. It's surprising how much quicker everyone is when it's not a practice.

I'd love a copy of the QRA video if anyone has it...or even a link to it.

[newjourno]

The BBC's thinking in making the story the lead on the Ten the other night....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4350000/newsid_4353200/4353234.stm

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

Good to see the boys at Boulmer and Coningsby getting some positive PR. The RAF in general needs as much constructive coverage as the BBC (and anyone else) wants to hand out.

For the unititiated, the ops room often seems to be manned artificially high degree in day time due to the instructors on position - both on the SNCO/officer positions as well as the ASOp assistants. The new equipment installed recently actually saved a fair bit of manning as the computer system doesn't need as much human assistance.

Without wishing to spark another prolonged inter-branch banter match, I must agree with BM that the irony concerning the source of the overmanning jibe is not lost on me either. Front crew navs on the E-3D anyone?

[Widger]

I had to forcefully pull Mrs Widger's fingers out of her mouth at the whole cridgeworthy aspect of it!!:yuk: :yuk: "The tension in the ops room was palpable" :yuk: :yuk:

On a more serious note....Why did they feel the need to SHOUT ACROSS THE OPS ROOM WHEN THEY HAVE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY INSTALLING COMMAND LINES? Not very professional!

Why do they insist on calling aircrew by their nicknames? Not very secure.

Yes what about the capability?.."look.... I pull this and it goes up really quickly...pnarrrrr, pnarrrrrr. he. he. he"

:ugh: :ugh:

On the whole a good bit of PR for the FC branch and the monkey(sic) on a stick. I am sure it acted as a fair bit of a deterrant to anyone thinking of doing another 9/11 and has scared the cr@p out of Afturkistan Airways who keep cocking up their frequency changes!!



:ok: :ok:

Fox 5

[PPRuNe Radar]

I am sure it acted as a fair bit of a deterrant to anyone thinking of doing another 9/11 and has scared the cr@p out of Afturkistan Airways who keep cocking up their frequency changes!!

A large number of miscreants seem to be of US origin though. Maybe they could show it on Fox and NBC ??

[Bunker Mentality]

OK, Widger, I'll bite!

The reason the 'tension in the ops room was palpable' should be obvious. If you were partcipating in an event which could result in the death of hundreds of innocent people within relatively few minutes, you might be a bit tense, too. The people on the telly weren't taking themselves seriously, they were taking their job seriously.

And the reason for the shouting is simple. It's the quickest way to get a piece of information to several people who need to know it straight away, and who are all busy doing stuff (and maybe even talking on other 'command lines'). It's only done in certain circumstances and is by no means routine.

So, Widger, as far as I'm concerned, you can RAM IT!

BM

[The Green Scopie]

'On a more serious note....Why did they feel the need to SHOUT ACROSS THE OPS ROOM WHEN THEY HAVE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY INSTALLING COMMAND LINES? Not very professional!'

Because when you are trying to pass a bit of urgent information to somebody already making a call it is quicker to shout it and get a visual acknowledgement that they heard it than to wait for them to finish that call and then pick up the your one button out of the 20 that are flashing at him at the time. Also quicker than setting up a conference call if more than one person needs to hear it. Delay and you could cost lives!

If you are serving why not organise a trip to visit to them and understand the problems that they have. If your not you will probably still get a visit only without the juicy bits.

Damn - someone else got there before me!

[Safeware]

Going back a bitHave you not heard..........

Washes have been LEANED.

Person washes aircraft (nice and clean)

Aircraft gets dirty.

Value added steps - NIL.

LEAN solution - Leave aircraft dirty and save on manpower. Have things got so lean that taking pride in one's equipment isn't allowed anymore? I'm sure if a Life Guard / QCS member on parade said 'I didn't turn out smartly because there is no value added' he'd get short shrift!

And what about the maintenance value - 'Sorry Boss, AJ is u/s today because we didn't see the crack developing under all that dirt and now we have a big repair job on.'

sw

[safetypee]

Re shouting across the ops room;- comms difficulties, shoot decisions, etc, perhaps the ‘management’ should read this accident report: USS Vincennes Air Disaster, 1988: (www.smithsrisca.demon.co.uk/HE1milit.html) located towards the bottom of the page.

[Widger]

Hurrah a nibble!!!!!!

The reason the 'tension in the ops room was palpable' should be obvious. If you were partcipating in an event which could result in the death of hundreds of innocent people within relatively few minutes, you might be a bit tense, too. The people on the telly weren't taking themselves seriously, they were taking their job seriously.

that is all the more reason to ensure that the entire team are calm and ordered. Shouting causes stress and confusion and clouds the picture.

But as I said in my original post...a good bit of PR!

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

Keep your tounge out.

[Rudolph Hucker]

Agree with the consensus that it set everyone involved in good lights....and we all know none of us want to see the 'end game' for real.

I wonder if the Met Police SO19 boys will now want a similar piece done about them about their role in the Bush/Blair world - oh sorry, the negative PR machine has already played that one out, hasn't it?

RH

[HEDP]

And none of the chaps were 'prone to capture' then, glad they must be very confident in their own abilities!

[Red Line Entry]

I'm always amazed at how anal some people get about revealing names in the media. To answer the comment "none of the chaps were 'prone to capture' then" - well, no. Typhoon ain't going anywhere operational in the near (or longish!) future and even if it were - do you honestly think a 20 sec spot on TV is going to alter the price of fish as far as they would be concerned?

"Ah infidel, we were going to let you go, but Achmed here was so pissed off with your posing on the 10 o'clock news 2 years ago that we're going to chop your head off instead"

Balanced against the multitude of other sources from which info can be far more readily gleaned, and also the good PR that can result in a time where we have to be ever more image conscious, I think the "Don't tell 'em your name, Pike!" attitude is a bit OTT

[HEDP]

And the F3 chaps????

[SirToppamHat]

I have it on good authority that a more in-depth version of the report(s) shown on Monday and Tuesday will be shown on BBC News 24 over the weekend. 2230 on Saturday 21st and 1530 on Sun 22nd Oct 05 if memory serves.

STH

[RubiC Cube]

On Newswatch this am it transpires that 50+ complaints were received by the BBC about this "propoganda". Most were dismissed as being from anti-war campaigners, but the programme editor didn't really defend why it was the lead item other than to say it had been in the making for 6 months!

I have to say that I turned on a bit late on the evening and thought that the news must have been delayed and that it was a documentary.

[Kage83]

Ahh Boulmers not that bad. But think of those lonely ftr controllers stuck down the bunker while you guys are all laid up in bed, admittedly in your immersion suits, but I know what I'd choose if it was a choice between being able to sleep or sit up on watch all night!!

[dolphinops]

"Have things got so lean that taking pride in one's equipment isn't allowed anymore?"

SW
I can assure you I take great pride in my equipment :ok:

[Load Toad]

It's just a thought but if I was a terrorist hell bent on hijacking a plane full of innocents and then flying the plane into some target it wouldn't be too much of a defeat if ALL I accomplished was having my enemy have to shoot me down prior to achieving my ultimate aim. Having the government actually having to order their own forces to shoot down and kill their own innocent women and children? Quite an achievement.