Hms Ocean (pyxis Phase 1)

[WAFU1]

I am not a junglie and have no aspiration to be one, but as we are half way through the PYXIS deployment and the first Tailored Air Group (TAG) departs OCEAN, I thought I would just say:

:D What a capability the CH 47 is - superb. Why are we bothering to argue for anything else? Just sort out the folding head or re-design the lifts (at Mr Boeing's expense) and lets just improve the Amphib lift capability tenfold. The Sea King (especially the Mk6) is a waste of time and effort.

:D The AH boys proved that the AAC is no longer Teeny Weeny Airways. Very professional, totally on top of their game and provided a very flexible force that produced the goods to the the Battle Staffs everytime. Sadly pulled off the exercise for other Land activities, but I am sure that they will acquit themselves well in their uncertain times ahead.

:D I had always been under the impression that junglies were 'gash' and 'cuffed' their profession. Pleasantly surprised to witness a very professional, safe and highly flexible organisation that delivered everytime to the Landing Force, often at very short notice.

:D But, what are they going to do with 847 NAS? With AH always having Land Component activities as it main focus, does not MoD, Fleet and JHC recognise that without a sight and rudimentary weapon system this aircraft becomes a very poor mini-SH that wastes deck space and tempo. I really cannot believe that it is going to be allowed to fade into insignificance, when only a small relative investment will reap significant increase in capability. As was seen last Thursday on board - AH disappeared from the deck overnight leaving 3 Cdo Bde without any AH.

So well done - really impressed and apologies for slagging you off as a fraternity in the bar in the past. Lets hope that the new TAG and Commando Group will develop and benefit in the same way that the last units did.

:D

[Impiger]

I my extremely humble opinion the line that AH (Appache) will always have land component duties is completely wrong headed (not WAFU1's fault it is the bo!!ocks spouted by too many in green). The whole point is that this is far too capable a weapon to be allocated exclusively to land component duties. There will be times when it is needed for air or maritime component tasks. People need to think Joint here and get into the apportionment/allocation mindset. To that end these should be Air Component assets (which does not mean RAF assets) to be allocated and tasked in accordance with the Joint campaign plan.

Doctrinal rant over I'll just go and re-read Liddell Hart on the indirect approach.

[Climebear]

Impiger


Surely you don't mean Maritime component - unless the Apache can now do ASW and ASuW. Ship to Objective manoeuvre is the domain of the Amphib component.

[cobaltfrog]

Gentlemen

You are all partially correct. Indeed AH64 may, at the moment, be the preserve of 9 Regt and 16 AA Bde, however, it will not always be thus. There is no reason why it could not operate under 3 Cdo Bde or indeed under the Air CC. Seeing as we are on doctrine, 847 NAS continues to have a role within 3 Cdo Bde and probably will continue to do so. AH needs ISTAR assets and screening and recce assistance so as not to waste those valuable flying hours!

In short, 847 has a role and there is certainly no plan to chop them. Not from our office anyway!!

[HEDP]

Impiger,

So if it needs to be joint why must it be air component? Just defeated your own argument methinks! Ownership is imaterial, single service thinking appears criminal to a humble taxpayer! Though by all accounts the new boys on the block are able to think outside the traditional 'green' box.

For the moment it is not a matter of where it should be but what is the highest priority for the machine. Not enough out on the street yet for everything that is being requested of it.

Cobalt,

In these days of command accountability do you think that it is justifiable to send out a legacy platform with no sight or weapons to recce when the best equipped platform is sitting down the road saving hours? May not get away with that one anymore in the great scheme of things.

IMHO

HEDP

[Clockwork Mouse]

Next stop - "Joint Force Apache"?

[MaroonMan4]

Come On Fellas,

Who are you all kidding!?

The RN blew it the moment that they signed the agreement believing that the Army were ever going to honour any agreement to loan/lend Apache to the RN.

With the whole of 16 Air Assault Brigade's future relying totally on AH (a. over 50% of the Bde's combat power and b. when was the last airborne insertion?) do you really think that the maroon machine is going to let the Royal Marines remove any of the highly prized aircraft and crews out of their firm grip.

As to 847 NAS having a valid role once you lose your sight/TOW.... Cobalt Frog, which office are you in and which window are you looking out of!?! I totally agree a relatively simple MX 16 and off axis machine gun would significantly enhance the AH when on Amphib Ops and a good double act could be a reality. Even if AH was to sod off without warning at the beck and call of 16 Air Asslt Bde an 847 NAS with a sight/weapon system would still provide the Royal Marines with something to fall back on (armed/recce aviation).

But the sad reality is no one is interested, all of your efforts are far too late (you lot should have been demanding answers right after your Sqn's success' apost TELIC).

You all know it, when your sights/TOW goes you will be a nice little battle taxi for small little teams that could be done in reality by a Sea King.

Sorry boys, you had your chance to get AH and you have blown it. Far too late and not enough with your arguments to keep some sort of attack aircraft and you just let the Army walk all over you.

And if you didn't see that in 1995 then how niave you all were! But look on the bright side in about 20 years time the Army will go through the same hoops as they did with 657 and 3 Cdo Bde Air Sqn and you never know you may get a second chance. We have 657 under us (well, nearly - all but name!).

Until then, just shout out the window waving your nine milly - 'stop or a say stop again' in the style of a Gazelle! Or you could just buy 6-8 Apache without the radar (but with the digitised comms), that would keep DPA happy (single logistics chain) and let you boys provide a credible, reliable and experienced Amphibious aviation force.

Okay, so I am a civvie now, so my information is months out of date. And believe it or not, although ex 'crab' I don't believe it should go into RAF hands. But it most certainly is wasted with 16 AAB and not given the chance to operate as a Joint/Defence wide capability.


:{

[WAFU1]

As I sit here with a black coffee in hand (post Trafalgar head ache!), watching Sky News and reading a 2 week old copy of Flight I see that the Govt is getting a mixed media reception for its deployment of 3 CH 47s to Pakistan.

Firstly, well done boys, good luck and fly safe.
Secondly - the Chinnie boys were warned off on board over 10 days ago. I am sure that its the 'red tape' of the Govt/DFID that has resulted in this very long and drawn out implementation of something that the RAF could probably have executed within hours if required. Despite some semi-positive press coverage the 'key message' being presented by the press and those being interviewed is 'too little-too late' making the RAF/military look inefficient and cumbersome by pure association.

But lets imagine that it was not the political faffing that delayed the decision but that the request 'toppled' JHC as when it went to the cupboard to get some more SH, the cupboard was bare.

As this request for CH 47 went to JHC, so did national newspaper reports that troops in Iraq were confined to barracks in Iraq due to the threat and lack of tactical SH lift (you can have 10 million troops in a Theatre, but if they are confined to barracks (termed 'Fixed' I beleive) then the troops are no use at all).

The article in Flight Magazine says that the US are selling CH 47s to raise funds for other projects. With the drastic shortfall in SH then why doesn't the UK procure, borrow, lease the US CH 47s? Please don't say that we (MoD Plc) are rectifying the problem with the purchase of South African Pumas and the conversion of Sea King Mk 6 into the troop lifting role. A complete farce of a false economy and a total waste of money (7-9 pax in a Sea King Mk6 compared to 45 ish in a CH 47). Who are we kidding?

So as the FASH, SABR and FRC re-invent themselves and slip their timelines and shift goal posts yet again, it appears comedy that any honest Staff Officer knows that the eventual solution will be a mix of CH 47 (because it can do the job) and Merlins (keeps jobs in Yeovil and has proven itself in Iraq).

Even the DLO must surely see the sense in this solution as it keeps a single airframe type within an SH fleet and a UK trg pipeline is in place.

Before I get accused by my Dark Blue breteren of an RAF 'hug in' I really don't care as I see first hand some really capable Junglie crews wasted when they strap pathetic excuses for what we try and pass as 'SH lift' to their backs. Sorry but the Sea King is a waste of fuel, deck space and more importantly highly trained and experienced SH crews.

So unless I have missed something obvious (e.g. that the US CH 47 models have software issues akin to the recent CH 47 HC3 debacle) then I recommend that:

1. That the UK procures some of the surplus US CH 47s.
2. The heavy/medium aspects of the DEC ALM FASH/SABR/FRC team stop wasting time, money and accept that a perfectly viable 'quick win' solution is availible now that will have long term real savings.
3. That the Sea King Mk6 conversion programme is stopped and money re-allocated to provide 847 NAS with a sight. The remaining Mk6 airframes used for Sea King ab initio trg (but dont clog up the frontline under the pretense of being a tactical lift capability).
4. That at least one of the Junglie Sqns converts to CH47 and assumes the role of primary Amphib support within JHC, allowing the remaining RAF CH47s to fulfil the other Operational SH tasks. Nasturally when the cupoard is bare or tasks require it the Junglie CH 47s can be swung to support the RAF assets due to the commonality of spares, trg and tactics.

In summary, I believe that it wasn't the RAF that was too little too late, but the bureaucacy of the Govt departments. I am pretty convinced that they could have departed UK within hours if the political will was there and if DFID had their act in gear.

Closely linked to this if the lack of SH was a contributory factor then there is a viable solution in the purchase of surplus US CH47s and re-training of RN crews that will significantly increase the tactical lift capability of UK forces as well as make considerable savings in the long term.

My head still hurts....:ouch: but now the BBC are now banging on about too little too late....

[timex]

Sorry boys, you had your chance to get AH and you have blown it. Far too late and not enough with your arguments to keep some sort of attack aircraft and you just let the Army walk all over you.

When did we get this chance? The decision was taken by the Navy, and it was all down to funding. Army wouldn't pay and neither would / could the Navy.

As was seen last Thursday on board - AH disappeared from the deck overnight leaving 3 Cdo Bde without any AH.

Just how many times have the Royal Marines said this, 847 (3 BAS) have tried since 85 to get AH, thats why we have had a USMC WTI on exchange for 20 yrs.

Do we have a smilie for banging your head against a wall??

[Green Flash]

Would Osprey have a role on the new carriers/assualt ships?? :confused:

[ImageGear]

At around $80 Million a piece and climbing, we would have to swop a deck for them. Not to mention the overhead of the training cycle. :sad:

Imagegear

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Do we have a smilie for banging your head against a wall??
Will this do?: http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard311/non-cgi/emoticons/banghead.gif
As for Osprey - what would it do? Massively overpriced, and there's an interesting discussion including Nick Lappos on Rotorheads about its many limitations.

Apart from that, there's far too much sense being written in this thread. Time to fetch vecvecsouthside to bring the general tone down an octave or 4.

[MaroonMan4]

Timex,

You obviously feel quite passionate about the subject and forgive me if I touched a raw nerve - my knowledge is some months old.

However, sorry but I do not believe that the Roayl Marines or Fleet actually realise what they have with 847 NAS. If after TELIC they had returned and fought hard and fast for an Attack Avn capability as being essential - and when I mean fought I mean really fought (essential in to the success of the boots on the ground) then at best you would have some AH (what is 6 AH in the grand scheme of things) and at worst the Lynx would not be faced with losing sight and weapons system.

But both Fleet and the Marines have left you high and dry as they focus on trying to make Merlin employable in the 21 st century (funny old thing - by adding a sight!) and the introduction of Viking and Landing Craft.

In my honest opinion as an ex-crab I believe that both of your pseudo 'lords and masters' have absolutely no idea what they could have had (i.e. AH) and what they are about to lose (847 NAS). With the best will will in the world, without a sight or weapon system then the Army will very kindy offer 847 NAS as a cost saving measure or 'absorb' you into one of its structures (which will be nice for you!).

[WE Branch Fanatic]

By adding a sight to Merlin do you mean the Wescam MX15, mentioned here in this article from 700M (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/4277.html)?

Back to 847, I attended a briefing on amphibious stuff earlier this year. During the talk, the COMATG staff officer stated that 847 have a role, not just because of it's anti armour capbability but also due to its smaller size. Did a lot of anti armour stuff in Iraq, working in conjuction with the SKW of 849.

Is there any reason why 847 cannot be equipped with Future Lynx, possibly armed with Hellfire (surely off the shelf fire control systems from other Hellfire capable types could be used?) and maybe a cannon?

Apart from cost.... :(

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Look at this (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/content.php3?page=9793) :cool:

[southside]

I heard from a very good source that the Apache is doing extremely well in Ocean.....although response times are Very disdappointing.

Apparent;y the average time from task being received on board to aircraft being airborne is around about 3 hours....yep 3 bloomin hours.....and the best they have achieved is 65 minutes....thats the best,,,65 minutes.?????now thats scary....questions should be asked in parliment about that one.......65 minutes to get airborne...???? what were they doing???? Having lunch ????

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Well, it didn't take him or his "?" key long, did it?

[WAFU1]

Southside,

My you are a poison little man aren't you. I don't know if I can be bothered to correct you (or your 'good source') on the details of how AH faired onboard.

However, I am/was here and from where I am looking you have been sold some duff info:

Yes, on occasions AH took 3 hours to range - but that is what the MoD gets when it procures an aircraft that does not have an electrical or hydraulic folding head. If you leave AH on deck not only does it black all of the 'O' boats spots (in conjunction with the CH 47 that takes up quite a few) but also to prevent corrosion and provide the best work conditions for the maintainers the hangar is the best environment. If the MoD wanted an aircraft that could be on deck within 20 minutes they should have thought about it back in 1995 - the horse has bolted and the practioners are doing the best they can with what they have been handed.

Now as to the requirement and taskings you drama queen -

To my knowledge (and although I am not an AH pilot it is my job to intimately know what they get up to!) I do not believe that they missed one time on target. On reviewing the post mission aircraft gun video tape I believe that both Bde and COMATG got exactly what they asked for in a timely manner.

The other consideration is that when higher command correctly reduces AH Notice To Move/Alert States/Readiness States then the crews can be prepared accordingly. There were several missions where higher command was reducing the Alert State of AH based on the ISTAR feed/information. This resulted in crews sat on strip alert on deck on the auxillary power unit.

If the Brigade commander rolled out of his bunk one morning and said - hmmmh, I think I will use AH today (in a random fashion), then yes it would take 4 hours to get the whole AH system on task. However, goood Warning Orders, Intents from Command, timely reduction of Alert States etc etc all result in concurrent activity and the timely employment of the capability. Although not involved with the TACEX I believe (from a 'good source') that when the boots on the ground requested AH CAS they got it!

I hope that your 'good source' also informed you of the 2 occasions when the COMATG staff brought forward the missions by 12 hours - not 12 minutes - 12 hours and as highlighted above I was very impressed with the speed of reaction and flexibility of the whole of the TAG (not just AH). I witnessed them getting airborne in about 45 minutes.

As to why does it take them so long - now that is where you lose all credability Southside and form the ridicule of other PPruners. To wade in with such potential damaging and feisty statements is unnecessary.

I am true dark blue, have no career interest in AH or the Junglies but I have made it my business in knowing their business. Although I will never fly the AH I ensured that I spoke, listened and watched the crews operate to get a feel of their world. You have obviously NOT done the same - just preferring to pick holes from afar.

As a 'very disapointed' tax payer that feels that questions should be asked in Parliament (oooooh luvvie - pleeeeaaase stop it! :D ) then perhaps you should visit an AH base and speak to them before sounding off in a public forum. Your thoughts and opions are based on legacy aircraft that have previously not had both the technology or the systems (both weapons and ISTAR) and therefore whatever your personal expectations were of AH reaction times you obvioulsy haven't progressed into 21 st aviation operations. If 45 minutes conducting Op checks improves Flight Safety, detection of the enemy, weapon accuracy and first round hits - then it is a necessary planning factor in order to use the technology of the aircraft.

At the risk of appearing a fool in front of the AH community (and Front Seater/HEDP please correct me - apologies if way off), but at least I have tried to understand the AH/Junglie world, I believe that the AH takes about 45 minutes from crews strapping in to take off in order for the crews to conduct aircraft operational checks on the radar, weapons and night vision system. I do believe though that providing the aircraft was not carrying any faults on start up that some of these operational checks could (and often were) conducted in transit coasting in to target which reduced the airborne time to about 30 minutes (which is not far off other aircraft types).

If you require more information Southside, please feel free to visit us, the Junglies or an AH unit - oh, and please bring your 'good source' as he/she may like to find out the reality before being so free with his/her advice.

:ok:

[vincehomer]

This is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!:E :E

[FB11]

WAFU1,

Don't be too hard on little Southside, I believe deep down he actually wants to say positive things.

Your comprehensive and balanced answer will only set him off on a new electronic thread hunt. Where will he settle next? On the CVF thread? Drag up his comments on fixed wing pilots and the RN logo?

Maybe the moderator can fix it so that he can only post into the Sea Jet thread. And only see WEBF's posts.

Maybe he has an (as yet) undiagnosed illness? Is it possible to have keyboard tourettes?

[cobaltfrog]

Will people stop saying 847 is for the chop!...ITS NOT.

[southside]

AH took 3 hours to range - but that is what the MoD gets when it procures an aircraft that does not have an electrical or hydraulic folding head ...
what? like the Lynx you mean,which doesn't have a hydrailic or electical head and which takes 20-25 minutes to range and spread????

However, notwithstanding the 3 hours notice you have to give to the enemy before you wax them, I still believe the AH is a fantastic aircraft. Were lucky we have them.

[HEDP]

WAFU 1,

Glad to hear from an independant source that the lads are doing what is asked of them, that is good to hear!

Regards,

HEDP

PS - Southside, you'll have to let me know what an electical or hydrailic head is, is this some new technology that we could all benefit from?

[CPG]

WAFU1 I must thank you for putting something positive about the apache, it seems to many people are quick to put down the programme. As an insider and operator its nice to see some one from another service praising us.

Southside i like to draw your attention to the Lynx spreading times, in that Lynx was designed to be used at sea, Apache was not. The Times you speak about from your "source" was due to being at night and in foul weather. the average time was approx 30 to 35 mins due to the hard work put in by the Tech's.
I believe you are trying to be positive but would like to find out who your source and where he got his information from. we could get Airbourne in a shorter time but you are not getting the best from the Aircraft. if you would like to visit an AH unit give me a call and you are more than welcome to come up to Dishforth providing we are in station and not away again.

[Front Seater]

WAFU1

Thanks and yep, you are not far off wrong with what you say. I am the first to agree that we have so much more to learn about the whole Ampbious side to operations and yes there were issues, but for our first attempt I think we didn't embarass ourselves or let the boys on the ground down.

Southside I am not too sure where you are coming from, but I echo all of the above. If you are military then feel free give us a shout at Dishforth and we can inform you and also listen to how and when we may be able to integrate with whatever capability you bring to the party.

We are busy but if it stops some erroneous information from being circulated then I am sure that it will be worth it. If you really want to our techs can show you the heath robinson blade folding cradle that Mr Boeing/Westlands managed to convince the AH IPT was an act of war!

You will then notice the subtle (NOT!) differences with an aircraft that was designed to go to sea (i.e. the Lynx that you quote) and the AH.

Oh, and Cobalt - I agree 847 NAS are not up for the chop and they really do enhance AH Ops and soooo much more could be done between the Sqns. However, I do agree you do need a sight (or at least something more than stabilised binos - I hope that was a joke!)