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View Full Version : How was it? - Facing air traffic and weather for first time?


Byrna
15th Oct 2005, 19:54
Hello,

This is a question for real-life commercial airlines pilots.

I do flight simulation on my PC where air traffic and weather (downloaded from the internet based on real-world forecasts) can be simulated, and even at this level, it is quite a "hairy".

I am wondering that, more than controlling the aircraft, as complex as it is, the things which would make a new pilot the most nervous would be rough/unpredictable weather and also the highly congested airspace around busy airports like Hong Kong Chek Lap Kok, London Heathrow, Chicago O'Hare, Frankfurt Main etc...

How did you feel on your first flight or two flying to really major/busy airports? Also, how about the first time you encountered rough weather like a thunderstorm, snowstorm or just really bad turbulance - how did you feel? I know that one does not fly into any storm and goes around it, but I assume there would be a lot of turbulence nevertheless...

Thanks for any input you may have on this.

John
Montreal, Canada

TRon
16th Oct 2005, 20:10
Well (dare I say it) I used to sim before I flew commercially..!

What is different primarily to what you are used to on FS is that we task share on all two crew aircraft, everything is duplicated and normally as the F/O you can turn the right and 99.9% of the time the guy/girl has seen it before or has enough experience to draw on to have an answer.

Radio wise, you pick it up very quickly and most of the radio chat is very standard, you actually get tounge tied when you have to ask for something in plain english! R/T in the Uk certainly is of a very high standard and controllers are excellent.

Weather wise, a few times I have been places I rather I wasn't but if air traffic wont let you turn away from it, you have to do it anyway...thunderstorms are killers..it's about the only thing you cant recover from.

Hope this helps, it is very similar believe it or not..

slingsby
17th Oct 2005, 03:48
LHR was the most nerve wracking time, being in the hold at 8000ft with plenty other guys sharing the same space, we briefed on the expected ATC instructions and pretty much just followed their heading and alt calls. Still very sweaty palms for the last hour.

Weather wise, yes there has been some places I really wished I had stayed in bed, Boston last week for one. moderate turbulance from Fl120 down to the ground, 60knt tail wind on finals until 1500ft then a swift 25knt crosswind. Some deft stick and throttle work from him in the left seat still resulted in a GA, not pleasant. Second time round we knew or thought we did, what to expect, but by the time we had been vectored around for our second go, the wind alt, windshear and turbulence had all changed. Himself in the left seat threw away all the automatics, and hand flew the entire sequence, I was very much impressed with him. Snow and ice is one I do not favor, on the groudn or in the air.

englishal
17th Oct 2005, 04:46
Weather wise, a few times I have been places I rather I wasn't but if air traffic wont let you turn away from it, you have to do it anyway...thunderstorms are killers..it's about the only thing you cant recover from.
ATC cannot refuse allowing you to deviate for weather. Only a foolish pilot would deliberately fly into a raging thunderstorm.............

Slingsby, was this Boston in the USA? Sounds like your Captain was a real hero!

Ah the wonderful world of the Sim;)

Its not the flying that scares me, its the taxying..... Looks so simple on the airport diagram, but then you arrive somewhere you're unfamiliar with and its easy to get lost.......


EA

slingsby
17th Oct 2005, 21:28
Yes KBOS, even he let out a huge sigh after landing.

englishal
18th Oct 2005, 02:42
What aircraft were you flying? I thought Flight Levels didn't start until 18,000' in the USA?
;)

Yellow Sun
18th Oct 2005, 08:01
What aircraft were you flying? I thought Flight Levels didn't start until 18,000' in the USA?

LHR was the most nerve wracking time, being in the hold at 8000ft

Yes, and Flight Levels start at 6000ft in the London TMA.

YS

Byrna
19th Oct 2005, 00:42
Englishal,

That's funny about taxiing because even in flight simulation, I was very confused about where to turn and when in large airports like Hong Kong Chek Lap Kok or Schipol Amsterdam. Without this "toy" we have in FS2004 which is called "progressive taxiing" which shows you the way by literally drawing a nice pink dotted line to your destination, one can get pretty lost, especially since the taxiway signs are not always easy to see or read and the airport diagram gets pretty confusing if you don't even know which taxiway you're on.

Thank-you all for your replies. Actually, last week-end, I was looking at some aviation weather in weatherunderground.com and Boston Logan did have very high winds!

Has anyone landed in challenging conditions (snow, freezing rain/ice or just high winds) in Montreal's Pierre Elliot Trudeau airport (YUL/CYUL) by any chance? How was it like?


John
Montreal, Canada

captain cumulonimbus
19th Oct 2005, 07:50
weather can be very scary,especially with a wx radar inop in a cold from thunderstorm!

traffic isnt too much of a worry though.just my view:ok:

Byrna
22nd Oct 2005, 01:27
Actually, the reason for my question about traffic can best be explained by "close calls" in times of heavy traffic not just on the ground when taxiing (near-collisions on the taxiways?) but also by take-offs and landing which are perhaps mixed up by ATC. After all, ATCs are only human and extreme pressure may perhaps lead to errors in air traffic coordination.

This is what also worried me, other than pilot/co-pilot being under pressure in heavy air-traffic... I really wonder sometimes whether it is just a matter of time before a serious accident occurs in one of those "mega" airports like Heathrow, JFK or perhaps Hong Kong due to ATC and/or pilot error in excessive traffic conditions?

I hope I'm wrong...

John

Jerricho
27th Oct 2005, 03:19
After all, ATCs are only human and extreme pressure may perhaps lead to errors in air traffic coordination.

Hi John,

That's a very interesting comment, and I guess the answer lies in the fact that not everybody is suited to the job of Air Traffic Control. The selection, training and constant review of proficiency are all there to ensure the individual in the seat can deal with what is thrown at them.

Yes we are human, but we follow procedures and SOPs not disimilar to pilots (and some of us fly as well ;) ) to ensure we deliver our service to the best of our abilities. It may spark some interesting debate, but it's deviation from these procedures that can start leading to problems.

Byrna
29th Oct 2005, 20:20
Hi Jerricho and thanks for your reply.

Yes, I had heard that air traffic control is an extremely demanding and stressful job.

Are you an ATC? If so, on of the things I wonder about is - how do you handle "eye strain"... looking at CRT monitors all day? Also, just curious, but how often are you allowed to take breaks?

John

Jerricho
29th Oct 2005, 23:10
Various countries have different views on how long a controller can be in position for. In the UK for instance, units like Terminal Control at West Drayton and the Enroute sectors at Swanwick normally stipulate a controller will be in position for an hour and a half maximum then they must have a half hour break (tis the law ;) ) Here in Canada there is no set time in position and can vary depending upon staffing levels or how may coffees you have had.

As to eye-strain, I didn't wear glasses before I started ATC.......but I do now ;). Seriously though, I have found I only need mine for working the radar. The mix of those that do wear them and don't is very roughly about 50/50. And there are some controllers who work "procedural airspace" that use flight progress strips and don't have radar............but that's a completely different story.