Tornado Crash in Sea Off St Andrews [Archive]

BEagle

14th Oct 2005, 19:21

Good to learn they're both OK. And well done to the rescue mates!

Some points:

1. The BBC quoted some faceless MoD spokespratt as saying:
"A formal investigation will be launched to find out if the accident was caused by pilot error or any malfunction of the jet."

That is outrageous and presumptive - the idiot should have said: "A formal investigation will be launched to find out the cause".

What sort of wanqueurre makes this sort of comment to the meeja? Don't MoD Corporate Communications :yuk: teach their idiots anything these days? It's like saying "We'll find out if the pilot fcuked up - or if there was another cause".

2. WTF were they doing taking off on a 'training exercise' so late on a Friday afternoon?

Tarnished

14th Oct 2005, 19:25

Wish both a speedy return to the cockpit, but why did the MOD spokesperson have to mention pilot error? Why not simply say that an investgation would determine the cause. Innocent until proven guilty I thought.

Getting airborne on a Friday after Happy Hour should have started would never have happened in my day -- perhaps that's the cause....

Tarnished

Edited to add:
Seems BEages we have the same thoughts! Yikes!

SmilingKnifed

14th Oct 2005, 19:25

Harking back to the issues raised in the CFT thread?

Glad both are OK.

Roghead

14th Oct 2005, 19:34

Beags, you've moved me from my slumbers to add my whole hearted agreement to your comments. Where on earth do we get such mindless morons who utter such crap in the name of the MoD. I'm also minded to lament the loss of the handy local SAR Chopper which we knew in our day, but well done to all those involved in the pick-up even if they did have further to travel. :ok:

The Rocket

14th Oct 2005, 20:38

A little more from the BBC,

" Tornado jet crashes off Scotland,

An RAF tornado plane has crashed into the sea off the east coast of Scotland shortly after taking off from its base.
The pilot and navigator suffered minor injuries after ejecting from the £20m fighter jet about 1745 BST on Friday.

The two crewmen, who were on a training exercise, were picked up 10 miles south east of RAF Leuchars in Fife.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said the men, who were taken by helicopter to Ninewells Hospital in Dundee, were "fit" but they had "bumps and scrapes".

They were later taken to a spinal unit in Nottingham to be assessed for any serious injury.

Meanwhile, a specialist RAF crash recovery team from Wales was to make its way north to recover the wreckage of the fighter plane.

RAF spokesman in Scotland, Michael Mulford, said: "They took off at 1745 BST and climbed into the skies above Leuchars and air traffic lost them.

"They would have travelled about 10 miles and their flight would have lasted about two minutes before they came down, going at about 500mph.

"They will be assessed at a spinal unit down south for a couple of days as a matter of procedure, as when you bang out like that, you can bend your spine.

"Once you eject, your parachute opens and you land in the sea still in your seat, which becomes your dinghy, and has a distress beacon attached.

"That's how they are located. They were in Ninewells Hospital an hour after ditching - that's a textbook rescue, I can tell you."

Fighter squadrons

The RAF Board of Inquiry will meet next week to investigate the accident - pilot error, mechanical or electrical malfunction, fire on board or bird strike are possible causes.

RAF Leuchars is home to three Tornado F3 fighter squadrons which have about 50 jets, equipped with rockets, cannon and missiles.

The men were found shortly before 1830 BST after two lifeboats and two helicopters scoured the area where the F3 went down.

The Sea King helicopters were scrambled from RAF Boulmer in Northumberland and from the naval air station at Gannett, near Prestwick in Ayrshire.

The aircraft from RAF Boulmer found the pair and airlifted them to hospital. "

SirToppamHat

14th Oct 2005, 20:44

Once you eject, your parachute opens and you land in the sea still in your seat, which becomes your dinghy
Que? Which Mk of seat is that then?

when you bang out like that, you can bend your spine.
Who writes this stuff??

Good news though, well done to all involved in the rescue.

STH

The Rocket

14th Oct 2005, 21:11

STH,

Typical journo boll**ks. In there to add a bit of excitement and sensationalism. You could pick enormous holes in that 'RAF Spokesman' statement.

Still, all the best guys, hope the "bumps and scrapes" heal up quickly.

On the plus side, there's a story to tell the grandchildren:ok: :ok:
One which will get better every year :p :p

Talking Radalt

14th Oct 2005, 22:11

Once you eject, your parachute opens and you land in the sea still in your seat, which becomes your dinghy
Surely if you land in the sea still in your seat it rapidly becomes a submarine? :confused:

soddim

14th Oct 2005, 22:55

Don't know which missiles they are referring to as rockets but the manufacturer will not find that funny. Or maybe it was the rockets in the seats?

The Rocket

14th Oct 2005, 22:57

Once you eject, your parachute opens and you land in the sea still in your seat, which becomes your dinghy

It would be better off producing a set of inflatable wheels, as that would be the only way you would be getting around after hitting the oggin still strapped into the thing:sad:

They were in Ninewells Hospital an hour after ditching

Banging out doesn't sound like a ditching to me. Who on earth is employed by the MOD as a spokesman to make ill thought out statements such as these?

Shocking:mad:

Rakshasa

15th Oct 2005, 02:51

Looks to me like some journo needs to practice their shorthand more!

Suprisingly enough, the green clads over on the 18th took exception to the Beeb using "Pilot error" as a header in the article and complained... The beeb changed it too!

Pongos sticking up for Crabs? Whatever next! ;)

diginagain

15th Oct 2005, 03:10

Rak, it's sometimes referred to as 'uniting against a common enemy'. We've ALL been shafted by inaccurate reporting.

Good to see you're keeping up with us on t'other side.:ok:

Just edited to add a well-done to the crews from Gannet and Boulmer - not applauded often enough IMHO.

Mr Wippy

15th Oct 2005, 06:49

Well done to the Squipper and Armourers, another TWO working as advertised.:ok::mad:

BEagle

15th Oct 2005, 07:05

Two. Another two, actually.......

Lynx206

15th Oct 2005, 07:33

"A formal investigation will be launched to find out if the accident was caused by pilot error or any malfunction of the jet."
I have it on very good authority that it was the thronomister in the number 5 engine again.

DEL Mode

15th Oct 2005, 08:17

A good journo would have put a line in about the aircraft manoeuvring to avoid the shoal seconds before the crew ejected.

BigginAgain

15th Oct 2005, 09:06

Lynx206

You silly individual! That Ground Bombing version of the Trinadu in use by No 46 Sqn from RAF Locking (as this one was) only has 4 engines (one was removed when it was being prepped for Operation NIMWAGS).

But seriously, the ac was steered away from a party of sea-fishing school children at the last minute by the Air Engineering Operator.

BA

BEagle

15th Oct 2005, 11:15

I note that both the Arbroath and Broughty Ferry RNLI lifeboats were launched at 1745 last night - presumably in support of the rescue operation?

A reminder that the RNLI volunteer crews are funded almost entirely by voluntary donations and provide a 24-hour service around the coast of the UK and Republic of Ireland.

So take a moment or two away from PPRuNe-ing and check out http://www.rnli.org.uk/join2.asp . You can help these chaps/chapesses who fish your mates out of the oggin from as little as £2 per month.

Jordan D

15th Oct 2005, 12:05

Story updated (new BBC article):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4344460.stm

Correct issues of seats & dinghys ... and apparently the incident was informed via Mobile Phone.

Jordan

N Joe

15th Oct 2005, 12:43

JD

Thanks for the link to the news site. For those of us that are no longer in the F3 world and don't live up North, PPRuNe is always the best source of reliable news. Any more (open source) info gratefully received.

Hope the guys are OK - didn't like the sound of them being sent down to Nottingham.

N Joe

Logistics Loader

15th Oct 2005, 12:57

Glad both crew got out ok...

Good advert for the mobile phone though, my fone packed up when i dropped it in a puddle, do the F3 guys waterproof their kit before getting airborne...???
Just curious !!

movadinkampa747

15th Oct 2005, 13:20

I'll say it for you LL WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...................

Or were you serious?:E

FJJP

15th Oct 2005, 16:30

Similar thing happened when the Cottesmore OC Ops jumped out of a GR7 when the engine went bang. As his wingman orbitted the site [who happened to be the Staish!] he borrowed a phone from a passer-by and phoned his wife! She then rang Ops to confirm their Boss was on the ground awaiting the yellow budgie!

Incidentally, his ejection was featured in one of the Discovery Wings programmes on Sky - he was quite badly damaged punching through the canopy when the MDC failed to detonate...

Very glad the Tornado mates are safe and well. I toasted their health when the word came through that they were OK!

Pontius Navigator

15th Oct 2005, 17:29

I thought the cockpit detached from the air frame and landed on its own, the side consol and dashboard folding back to allow a gentle inflation of the onboard airbags to cushion the pilot and a rubber ring to cushion the nav whose bulk would not allow side airbags.

Or is that mod still classified?

Ooops

Crashed&Burned

15th Oct 2005, 19:30

Does it normally take 45 minutes to find and pick up a crew 10 miles from takeoff..? Seems a long time (especially to the crew)...

I assume Leuchars has given up its SAR unit.?

C&B

Farmer 1

15th Oct 2005, 19:41

BEagle

A reminder that the RNLI volunteer crews are funded almost entirely by voluntary donations and provide a 24-hour service around the coast of the UK and Republic of Ireland. I sit to be corrected, but I think that's not quite correct. Remove the word "almost". Otherwise, I could not disagree less.

Heroes (/heroines?) all.

BEagle

15th Oct 2005, 20:18

From the RNLI website:

The Royal National Lifeboat Institution saves lives at sea.

Our volunteer crews are funded almost entirely by voluntary donations and we provide a 24-hour service around the coast of the UK and Republic of Ireland.

Have you joined yet?

Heroines? Surely you must have heard of Grace Darling?

jimgriff

15th Oct 2005, 21:33

Re the RNLI.

"Almost" is accurate as the RNLI sits on a huge mountain of cash which is invested and collects a lot of interest. This is in order to fund future developement and new boats. This is so it does not live hand to mouth so to speak and is a wise funding policy. Most major charities do it. It is a brilliant charity and is widely regtarded as the best in the worls by its peers.

Heroines is also correct as there are a lot of gals in the crews these days and do a brilliant job.

dolphinops

15th Oct 2005, 22:18

RAF spokesman in Scotland, Michael Mulford, said: "They took off at 1745 BST and climbed into the skies above Leuchars and air traffic lost them.

Damn careless 10 miles out I say!!

More spokesperson bolleaux

Milt

16th Oct 2005, 01:45

Pontius Navigator

You are mixed up with the F-111 crew module.

If it comes down in water with a leak then moving the stick back and forth operates the bilge pump.

Roo1

16th Oct 2005, 06:32

C&B , the SAR effort came from Boulmer and Prestwick, plus the LB`s as BEagle said earlier. Damn good going for Boulmer as flight time is usuallly about 1 hour to that position.

Sadly you are right in that Leuchars lost their SAR flight many moons ago.

Ref RNLI, the mechanics are full time on many stations, as are the coxswains.
Interestingly (vaguely) the Thames LB`s now have some full time crews. Actually, thats not interesting at all at this time on a sunday morning. Jeez.

Farmer 1

16th Oct 2005, 08:30

I was right then - I do sit corrected.

Mind you - Grace was not RNLI, she was the young daughter of a lighthouse keeper.

But definitely - most definitely - a heroine.

Roo1

16th Oct 2005, 08:39

and from what I can gather, the RNLI blame Grace for their creation!.

Pontius Navigator

16th Oct 2005, 20:04

Milt, loosen up, of course I know that.

F111 came down in the Moray Firth in two bits. The bit what didn't sink contained the human freight. They unstrapped, unpacked their immersion suits, donned same.

All the while a fishing boat was hove too waiting for the tin can to open. Eventually two very smart ex-aviators emerged, climbed, dry-shod, onto the fishing boat, removed their immersion suits and were lifted off by the Lossie chopper.

For their pains two local fishermen were the proud possessors of two almost brand-new, used once only, immersion suits.

Vulcan should have worked like that too!

Argonautical

17th Oct 2005, 12:31

In today's Daily Mail, it says this was the 60th Tornado lost.

ORAC

17th Oct 2005, 14:05

IIRC, when two F-111´s went down in the Moray Firth, after a mid-air, SAR found the two capsules alongside each other with the pilots knocking hell out of each other. Had to use a separate chopper for each crew to keep them apart..........

hon_bookie

17th Oct 2005, 15:36

I heard at the weekend that it wasn't 56 Squadron. May have been 111.

Trumpet_trousers

17th Oct 2005, 16:48

I heard at the weekend that it wasn't 56 Squadron. May have been 111

..errm, as reported on page 2 of this thread - where have you been?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4344460.stm

FJJP

17th Oct 2005, 17:06

N Joe

I believe virtually all ejectees are taken to Nottingham - the hospital there is one of THE world class units for spinal injuries. You should have seen what they did for Cottesmore OC Ops - they put a huge amount of metal in his back to fix his spine, and he was flying again without restrictions within a year.

Pretty good reason for the crew to go there for a checkout, I reckon...

Big Tudor

17th Oct 2005, 17:54

If it's the QMC in Nottingham then they are definately in the best place for spinal treatment. Can't remember the name of the doc who treated me (Bob somebody I think), but I wouldn't be walking today if it wasn't for that man! :ok:

PPRuNeUser0178

18th Oct 2005, 00:23

Doesnt the C152 from tayside avaition that got involved deserve a mention?

diginagain

18th Oct 2005, 01:06

If it was a causal factor, almost certainly.:E

Jackonicko

18th Oct 2005, 18:28

A little bird tells me:

Picture the scene, Tornado F3 leaving Leuchars one Friday night. Suddenly, at about 9k ft it all goes quiet:

Pilot: Time to get out
JEngO: Ok. Gulp

Mach the Knife

18th Oct 2005, 19:00

Jacko.............your little bird is wrong.

PPRuNeUser0172

18th Oct 2005, 19:05

Does that 60 Tornado's lost include the ones that the Saudi's have trashed on our behalf or is that purely the sole effort of Her Majesty's finest?

boringoldfart

18th Oct 2005, 19:11

nothing ever changes - I had a wiz prang in 1991 - wifey received call from SMO to say Hubby had been in prang - would let her know how I woz as soon as info came thru!!

After many months of misery- BOI found me not guilty(!!!!) - AOC in C couldn't have no one to blame - overturned finding to one of pilot negligent - I cracked and am still on anti d's 14 years later!!

Nothing changes!!

18greens

18th Oct 2005, 20:28

Agree with the RNLI comments, great service and free and although the option to launch is at their discretion they won't leave anyone out there.

They reckon it costs £6,000 per big boat launch and £1,000 per rib launch so there are worse places to spend your money.

The kit they have is excellent , the best, without question. Their philosophy is they won't send out a volunteer on a ropey bit of kit. If you live near the sea look up becoming a volunteer.

One small thought, they are volunteers (mostly) so if it wasn't fun would they do it?

5206

18th Oct 2005, 20:38

Jacko/Mach,Picture the scene, Tornado F3 leaving Leuchars one Friday night. Suddenly, at about 9k ft it all goes quiet:

Pilot: Time to get out
JEngO: Ok. GulpHeard similar, but not that it all went quiet.

5206

Safeware

18th Oct 2005, 20:38

Ezy,Doesnt the C152 from tayside avaition that got involved deserve a mention?Why what did he do?

sw

DEL Mode

18th Oct 2005, 20:44

Thread about the Ten O'Clock News is going on about dirty F3's.

Mentions maybe SEngO's could get the lads out washing the jets on a Friday afternoon.

Thought they tried that last week.

Might curtail the PAX trips though.

Stitchbitch

18th Oct 2005, 20:46

Boringoldfart you didn't lend your name to a penguin did you? If so I belive you captained my sisters flight not so long ago..:D
Regards
Stitch

serf

18th Oct 2005, 20:56

C152 was the first on the scene - was airborne in the area at the time and was asked to go for a look!

Gugnunc

18th Oct 2005, 22:34

C152 was a FI from Dundee (ex RAF too!). Requested to overfly by Leuchars. Saw the fuel slick and one of the Tornado crew must have seen the spam can because he popped a flare.

C152 stayed overhead till the helo arrived 1 hour later.

All rather ironic considering we'd all (ie Tayside & Fife flying club) attended a MCASD at Leuchars two weeks before, and had an excellent presentation on distress proceedures.

Obviously the helo would have found them without any assistance from the 152, but it must have been some comfort to have had the Cessna circling overhead.

Info taken from the Dundee Courier, so I can't vouch for the accuracy.

Roo1

19th Oct 2005, 00:36

gugnunc,

Your info is pretty accurate, not bad considering its from a paper.........

Roo

dmussen

19th Oct 2005, 05:51

On the positive side the boys get two ties each. One from Bartin-Baker and one for arriving in the ogin.
As for Mod spokespersons and the rumour mongers in the press corps nothing has changed.

Bob Viking

19th Oct 2005, 09:45

Reading a thread like this it makes you wonder where alot of people get their info from.
When you know a few details about an incident like this, it becomes readily apparent that most people don't have a bl00dy clue what they're on about!
I know it's a rumour website but speculating or making stuff up about aircraft accidents is neither sensible or constructive.
BV:*

jimgriff

19th Oct 2005, 11:01

dmussen....
Sorry to correct you but only one tie.

But they do get a nice gold silkworm brooch from IRVIN for using one of their parachutes and a nice little pin with (depending on your view) a dolphin or a goldfish from Beaufort for using the dingy.

alexmac

19th Oct 2005, 12:43

Wonder what the conversation between Pilot & Pax sitting in the life raft went along the lines of...

:mad:
No it wasn't :mad:
Oh :mad:
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Mach the Knife

19th Oct 2005, 13:27

It wasn't a JEngO in the back seat.........
It didn't go quiet before they left...........
So much misinformation...........

JUST LET THE BOARD DO THEIR JOB

tonkatechie

19th Oct 2005, 13:42

Well done to all involved -
-prompt response from rescue agencies
-good drills from pilot and PAX (not a JEngO, he wears chevrons on his shoulders I hear, but irrelevant anyway), especially the pax seeing as he would only know them from watching the video briefing!
-well done to the press for doing the usual misinformation that helps rumour control stir things up!
-well done to the back seater for getting 2 trips in one day (3 if you include the 'Martin-Baker airways' one). I hope you like the tie-pin!

On a sober note, I hope all goes well with the inquiry, and that it doesn't turn into a witch hunt. Having had (much lesser) experience of such matters, I know it can be a huge worry. Let's hope it's quick and proper.

Get well (and flying) soon to the two guys...

Tarnished

19th Oct 2005, 14:22

jimgriff and dmussen must inform you on the things likely to be coming to the crew.

Martin Baker - membership to the tie club, a tie, certificate, patch and pin. Lunch in the chalet at Farnboro' whenever they want.
Beaufort - membership to the Porpoise Club, a tie, and a certificate.
Sadly I don't think they'll get a Caterpillar. The club is specifcally for those that owe their life to an Irvin (silk) parachute. IIRC the Tornado seat has a parachute made by GQ - so no cigar.

I also got a tie from Grasby Electronics who made the beacon, so they might whoever it is makes their radio today.

One of everything is sufficient, its greedy to get two. Dooh!

Tarnished

jimgriff

19th Oct 2005, 19:26

Tarnished,

They do get the silkworm brooch (catapillar club). The MB 10 seat is fitted with the Irvin-GQ 1000, 2000 or 6000 aeroconical parachute (or a derivitive thereof. Suppose it depends on what the regpackers have in stock!) and when I was at the factory a month or so ago I asked if the brooch was still issued and was informed that it was.

If you didnt get one for your last MB letdown, you should write to them and have tham send you one.

Tarnished

20th Oct 2005, 02:20

jimgriff

You know very well that both my let downs were Irvin assisted, so was able to replace the lost caterpillar on grounds of insanity.

But I am right that for a while, GQ, before it was bought out/taken over by Irvin were not at liberty to issue Irvin's protected caterpillar to Mk 10+ users. Wonder if they will do it in retrospect? The Mk 10 used to simply have a GQ chute, not a Irvin GQ chute, such is the way of life in the dog eat dog world of corporate takeovers.

Much the same to me as calling an F-15 a bleeding Boeing aircraft its a McDD F-15 for goodness sake.

Tarnished

Duncano

24th Oct 2005, 14:46

Daily Record Article (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16285370%26method=full%26siteid=66633%26headline =exclusive%2d%2doops-name_page.html)

EXCLUSIVE: OOPS

RAF probe ejector seat cock-up theory after £20m jet crashes
By James Moncur
THE RAF are to probe why a £20million Tornado crashed into the sea.

And sources said one theory being considered was the fighter jet passenger accidentally ejected himself and the pilot.

The passenger, a sergeant who worked as an engineer at RAF Leuchars in Fife, had been granted the flight as a present after announcing his retirement.

But just two minutes into the flight, the jet, flown by a member of 111 Squadron, ditched into the sea on Friday, October 14.

Unusually for an incident in which both crew members have survived without serious injury, the identities of both men have been kept secret.

Last night, as salvage experts prepared to recover the plane, which is lying in 40 feet of water, sources on the base claimed the sergeant may have triggered the dual ejection system accidentally.

One said: "The sergeant's possible role in this crash is the talk of the base.

"This sort of thing has happened in the past, especially with inexperienced flyers.

"In some cases, the guy in the back thinks he is about to crash and pulls the handle when the pilot is in complete control. The Tornado is fitted with a dual ejection system in case the pilot gets incapacitated and the navigator has to save both of them.

"There are different set-ups but the dual system is the most common."

Aviation expert Paul Jackson, editor of Jane's All The World's Aircraft, confirmed passengers in the back seat of Tornados can eject both crew members A spokesman for RAF Leuchars confirmed that the passenger was a sergeant at the end of his career.

He said it wasn't unusual for other ranks to be invited to fly in the back seat of the jets and said every month a ballot was held to decide who would go up.

The spokesman added: "We can't speculate about what caused this incident."

An MoD spokesman said: "A board of inquiry has been set up to work out exactly what caused the crash. They'll look at everything from a technical fault to human error

Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/)

BEagle

24th Oct 2005, 15:00

I recall a Fighter Controller accidentally banging out of a Hawk on exercise from Wattisham in the early 1980s. Fortunately the command eject valve had been selected off before flight, so the pilot wasn't ejected and was able to land the aircraft safely - I was down on the ORP at the time and watched it land with the bang seat pole sticking out of the rear cockpit.....

What did surprise me was the amount of damage the canopy perspex caused to the aircraft.

LogieBear

24th Oct 2005, 15:20

Daily Record 24 Oct 05. Quote:RAF probe ejector seat cock-up theory after£20m jet crashes. Know the back seater very well. BOI ongoing. Experienced PAX. Journalistic bolleaux. Thanx BEagle for use of common sense. Both crew are well.

Widger

24th Oct 2005, 15:23

I recall a Fighter Controller accidentally banging out of a Hawk on exercise from Wattisham in the early 1980s

Think I remember that as well. The thin end of the wedge that was.

Safeware

24th Oct 2005, 17:21

LB,Thanx BEagle for use of common sense.

Maybe I've missed BEagle's (normal) words of wisdom here, but I don't see any common sense, just narration. Was it rapidly edited?

sw

BEagle

24th Oct 2005, 17:27

I merely sought to make the point that, although backseat passengers were often carried in the Hawk, selection of the command ejection valve to the 'off' position meant that, should an accidental back seat ejection occur, it would be unlikely to lead to the loss of the a/c.

Whether the Tornado has a command ejection system I have no idea. But I'm sure that appropriate bang seat SOPs are in place to ensure that the nonsense spouted by this journo simply could not have happened.

Leave it to the BoI.....

Safeware

24th Oct 2005, 17:44

Beags,

It has a similar system, operated from the rear, and I believe SOPs were changed from having it set to BOTH for exactly this kind of reason. ie if the pilot goes, no matter what, the back seat goes too, but if the back seat decided to leave, the pilot would still be left behind.

sw

Red Line Entry

24th Oct 2005, 17:51

Making no comment on this particular case but the Tornado DOES have a command eject system that is selectable. For PAX rides the crew-in consists of making sure it is selected to REAR (ie if the guy in the back pulls the handle, only he goes).

In other words - typical journalistic bollaux

r supwoods

24th Oct 2005, 18:41

Thats funny a letter in the Daily Mail today said it was a birdstrike causing engine failure ... guess we'll never know :confused:

DEL Mode

24th Oct 2005, 18:50

Just recalling what Bob Viking posted all those days ago.

Today is a bargain day for speculation.

First it was the Daily Mail (Readers Letters)

Then it was the Daily Record.

So after the post bird strike engine failure, the aircraft flew out to sea where the passenger pulls the handle and both crew end up in the drink, without the pilot being aware of the eject initiation.

Wow, even Tom Clancy would struggle to dream that one up.

Maybe it is time that the MoD were a bit more switched on to the need to brief the outside world. No school involved in this one, but could it be time to better manage information release.

Especially as the only MoD spokesman's comments appear to be drivel - floating down to the sea in the seat (trusting he was not misquoted).

Spelling mistake are cause I is an engineer.

Impiger

24th Oct 2005, 18:52

This is what we come to a Rumour network for: Rumour, gossip, uninformed speculation, journalistic drivel .........

Anyone seen the 48 hour signal?

Safeware

24th Oct 2005, 19:09

Following a slight interrupt...
The sergeant's possible role in this crash is the talk of the base. I think talk is more likely to be around the fact the a pax was on such an eventful trip, and how well they did in what must have been disconcerting (to say the least) circumstances - cold, wet, dark, waiting in the dingy for the helicopters to arrive.

sw

WeeMan18

24th Oct 2005, 19:24

I read the 48 hr last week and can say that Jacko's sources did not read the same signal as me. Likewise, the letter in the Mail was utter garbage. The writer should have known better than to speculate and the newspaper probably did know better, but couldn't care less. The PRO or Media Ops Offr could do with a rebriefing too.

Congrats SC for winning a tie.

Pontius Navigator

25th Oct 2005, 10:01

The best rule is tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. BUT only if asked.

If asked only answer the question.

Mind you, may years ago I watched a senior Yorkshire policeman do just that. Every, and I mean every, question was a closed question to which the only plain answer was yes or no. That was exactly the answer that the journalist got and the further she tried to drag out other answers the firmer the yes and no became.

He did not even give 'I'm sorry I can't answer that question' phrase. A joy to watch but not the best PR for the police.

On any crash tell the journos what is blindingly obvious or what will be revealed in a short while.

The east anglican regional PRO told a good tale. He briefed the TV journos at a field location in Norfolk about breaking news of the Tornado crash at Newcastle. The news anchor then read back his entire verbatim report and ended with 'Is there anything you can tell us about the circumstances of the crash Colonel.' Stiched up!

teeteringhead

25th Oct 2005, 10:19

Slightly different spin, but a thought occurs.

This was a pax ejection; I can recall (at least) two others, because they involved mates in one seat or the other.

Lightning T bird at Gut in late 70s (??) with a Harrier mate as pax. Both OK.

Harrier T bird (also Gut I think) - late 80s early 90s (???) army pilot pax in back seat gets out - front seater doesn't.

And this F3 makes (at least) three in less than 30 years.

Seems to be a high proportion of ejections involving pax, considering the (relatively) small proportion of pax rides.

Any comments from statisticians and/or jimgriff ??

And I'd better add that I am in no way implying a causal relationship, just noting what may be a statistical oddity.

ORAC

25th Oct 2005, 10:37

Add the young lass out of the Harrier. (Leading to the "revenge of the fat WRAFs" when skinny lightweight lasses couldn´t meet the seat specs)

And then there was Wedge Preston out of the Hawk......in no way implying a causal relationship.

Gainesy

25th Oct 2005, 11:13

Also a Reds Sgt back seater 21 April 1983. But that was deliberate, not accidental. Aircraft had hit powerlines IIRC, pilot landed it.

Widger

25th Oct 2005, 11:31

And then there was Wedge Preston out of the Hawk......

:( :( :( :uhoh: Groan....and there was me trying to be all nice and subtle in my previous post and not actually mention the bloke's name!!!!

ORAC

25th Oct 2005, 11:36

Ohh come now, everyone is entitled to their 15 minutes of fame.... :E

SirToppamHat

25th Oct 2005, 12:27

I once attended a lunch where the FC chap who ejected from the Hawk (I won't mention his name !!!!!) was called upon to tell his side of the story. To give him his due, his version of events was absolutely hilarious ... though I accept he had had a few years to perfect it.

It left me wondering whether there might have been something in his version.

That said, what are the chances...

And did they ever find the seat (which I believe would have been conclusive). Is there still a reward from MB on offer?

STH