ANY TRUTH IN THE RUMOUR THAT SCOTIA HAVE JUST BEEN GIVEN A BIG PAY HIKE ( THE WORKFORCE THAT IS )AND A GENEROUS CHANGE IN THEIR ROSTOR ?

I'd heard a figure of around 20% but it could just be one of the many rumours flying around. But if it is true watch the stampede of pilots across the runway at Aberdeen. It's amazing that with Scotia being paid 10% more than Bristows already that more people haven't left. I think many pilots in BHL are waiting to see the result of this years payrise before making that move. Of course both companies are still losing pilots to the fixed wing world.

However, with Bristow painting aircraft blue, senior directors selling their shares in OLOG and continuous talk of "can't afford a big payrise" then perhaps there is a much bigger agenda here.

The Truth is Out There!

Great rumour, if it's true then the management at Bristow's must be worried that their 'magical' pay review won't satisfy the work force in light of Scotia's already better pay & conditions. They can kiss goodbye to a few more pilots in the near future and in the long term any hopes of the 'Jigsaw' Offshore SAR and even the long term mainland SAR contract, not to mention being unable to crew present oil contracts

In fact, if indeed the management is so 'blinkered' and perhaps they aren't if they are selling OLOG shares off as mentioned by Rameses III. Then perhaps it's true the hidden agenda is the end of Britow's and the start of an even larger CHC company!. (Watch the Oil companies cry 'Monopoly').

After all, spending lot's of money on a new company image just before you sell it off is an old military tactic. A sure fire sign of the end. I'm sure those loyal BHL pilots, crewmen and support staff are watching carefully to see if the loyalty shown over many years will be justly rewarded with an ample pay and conditions award. Good luck….you deserve it. If not I'll see you at Scotia in the near future.

Thanks for the reply chaps. Still nothing concrete from a Scotia driver. The silence is deafening !

I'm with CF here - Are there any Scotia pilots reading this ?

If so, have you been offered a 2 week on / 2 week off roster or the option of a 5 - 2 / 5 - 9 roster as the rumours seem to be suggesting ?

To many theories in Aberdeen and not enough solid information. Thanks to anyone who can make things a bit more concrete !!

4% and 8/6....I think!

Puma Mk1 drivers have the option of 4/3 or 8/6 with 16 days leave, Mk11 Drivers are on a 5/2 5/3 7/6 roster with 29 days leave meaning both groups get 192 days off per annum, and they have just recieved the second part of the two year pay deal brokered by BALPA worth 4.2% this term. however I understand that ther is a patition going around calling on its members to press for more cash or face industrial action, its going to get interesting over the next few weeks as there are rumours of more resignations to come this at a time when the company is looking to recruit 30 more pilots over the next 6 months. The local press reports that oil companies are already taking the hint and Tallisman have gone from ADhoc to sole use on two Mk1's this will have a domino effect as the oil companies start to see an even bigger drop in availability especially as drilling work is increasing and the workforce are topping out on hours and the summer peaks have yet to bite.

A one off increase of £10,000 per capt. and then the written agreement of 10% for the next three years would go some way to redress the situation and stop the loss of experienced crew.

Thanks for the info . If nothing else , this thread has put the wind up some of the grownups on the other side of the runway .I don't care what sort of cunning plan the " Big two " on the other side of the Atlantic have up thier sleeves , they're going to have to develope some pretty swept up auto pilots to keep the fleet off the ground once all the "loyal employees " foxtrot oscar to fixed wing.

------------------
BOHICA

The 8/6, 4/3 roster implementation has been put back by management until November, (more likely next year), as Scotia do not have enough pilots to make it work. As for a big pay rise, we will just have to wait and see, the workforce know nothing as yet.
With regard to pilots moving across the runway, I believe that there is a no poaching agreement in force between the two companies. Perhaps any Bristow pilot who has approached Scotia would like to comment.

Chopperman.

Scotia management think they will keep pilots by giving a few extra days off in the year. The new roster looks great until you see they have taken most of the annual leave entitlement and rostered them as "extra days off".
They must get the message that the only thing that is going to keep pilots is to give a respectable salary. I for one would not be staying on the North Sea if i was a 30 yr old. the fixed wing earning potential is so much greater.

I think not, plenty of those that I speak to appreciate the North Sea work is unique, and would happily stay if the quality of life was good. Yes more pay improves that, but more time off and less tiring work routine with some stability to days and hours worked is more attractive to many. However you look at rostering and leave, at the end of the day it is how many days off that can be used to their full that counts for me.

I don't see how an increase in time off can solve the problems we are having.Money is the only thing that will help.An increase in our salaries will lead to the retention of experienced aircrew and recruitment of new ones.I like MaxNg's sums ! A stable workforce would ( I think ) naturally lead to a more stable rostor.
PS......I thought the latest Bristow/Balpa CC newsletter was damn good.....keep it up.

------------------
BOHICA

What is the current salary for the crewmen? and are they suffering similar problems with retention etc?

With all the talk about guys going fixed wing can anyone actually say how many have left the industry in the last twelve months? Out of a combined UK N Sea workforce of about 450 (my guess!) I suspect we are talking a very small percentage. It's a great headline, but I don't think the reality backs it up. I can only remember about 4 or 5 from Scotia. That kind of number isn't going to result in a massive shift in pay rates.

I like the idea of more time off 'cos it gives me more opportunity to get my fixed wing hours :)

More money would, of course, be a bonus but I live in the real world.

I'm now waiting for the bullets to start flying. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Variable Load, the problem is that the people leaving are all from the middle of the workforce. There goes all that experience, so what happens when all the retirements kick in, and there's no one to replace them?

The other problem is how many are waiting to go fixed wing?

The problem is not only the loss of experience to the fixed wing world, but also the lack of quality material to recruit. With few exeptions, the new blood coming into the offshore market are very inexperienced and have little possibility of reaching command quality for many years. The large number of leavers over the next few years is going to cause the industry to promote too soon with a consequent downturn in safety......And then there are those foreign pilots who are waiting in the wings to work for 20 roubles a month!

Lots

Roundwego
What hours, experience and qualifications in your opinion, makes a person, "quality material to recruit". Also, what sort of $$$ can a new co-pilot expect to earn. I must warn you I'm a foriegner who is thinking about comming over to see how the other half do it but I certainly wouldn't work for a penny less than the going rate.

Hello Random Background Noise

There has to be the ability to balance the recruitment requirement. A low time, newly qualified pilot can earn quite a respectable wage within two to three years – probably more than a similarly qualified fixed wing pilot. This is reasonable due to the high cost of buying a CPL/H. When you get to the 3000hr experienced ex military pilot or a civilian who has built up a variety of P1 experience doing lots of different jobs, the North Sea is not so attractive. A senior North Sea line pilot is earning in the order of £50 - £55k. His equivalent in fixed wing will be able to earn £80k+. (Any FW readers please correct if necessary). This is particularly galling when one considers the harsher environment in which the North Sea pilot has to operate and the increased hazards of the job. How many pilots have come from the fixed wing world to helicopters as a career advancement – none that I know.

As to my previous reference to foreign pilots, watch this space. The employers would rather bring in labour from low salary base countries rather than look to the long term problem of retention of experienced UK pilots. Look at the Health Service – rather than paying an appropriate rate to attract and retain sufficient UK staff, foreign doctors and nurses have been brought in. It is not uncommon to find oneself face to face with a foreign doctor with whom one can hardly communicate due to language problems. This is not a reflection of the competence of “foreign” practitioners. I would be equally “foreign” if I was to try and work for a local firm overseas.

Quality and safety will suffer if the situation is allowed to deteriorate further.


[This message has been edited by roundwego (edited 23 May 2001).]

Who said only 4 or 5 people have left Scotia for fixed wing? I can think of two months last year when around 7 left each month. OK maybe it was not all for fixed wing, but where they go doesn't matter it is the numbers that are the problem. Even worse if it is not to FW, at least we understand why they go there, it is more worrying when people just want out.

I'm still hearing vague mutterings about a separate pay deal being negotiated at Scotia.I understand that this is on top of the previously agreed 4%.Anyone care to comment? Inquiring minds would like to know.

------------------
BOHICA

The 4%, (or there abouts,) was the final part of a pay deal agreed a year or so ago. That deal is now complete, so negotiations will continue for a better deal for all the pilots at Scotia.
What stage those negotiations are at, or even if they have begun or will begin, is a matter for those at Scotia.

Chopperman.

That's Scotia:

Who knows about the payrise deal Bristows pilots are likely to get? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

I've heard Bristows is trying to get away with 10 - 15 'ish, regardless the inminent mass exodus of SFOs to Scotia. :)

Any comments

[This message has been edited by 100%RPM (edited 28 May 2001).]

Well, Bristows had a pay meeting the other day. Not very well attended as usual.

Anyway, without giving too much away we'll looking for a good rise. However, confidence in BALPA was once again knocked when the BALPA rep, who we pay for, started to pack up his things and buggered off to catch a flight to London long before the meeting ended. Would it really of been too much to get him to stay overnight so at least he could have attended the whole meeting. Considering that most of us pay between £300 and £500 a year for the privilege of being in BALPA then this really is taking the piss.

I'm certainly starting to question what exactly we are getting for our money from BALPA and if they don't come up trumps this year then I see no reason to stay in it. In fact I think I'll apply to join the MSF. They're cheaper, less arrogant, have better professional representation at a local level and seem to actually care about their members. From what I've seen of the BHL BALPA reps they're about to enter these pay negotiations with a defeatist attitude.

Come on BALPA get your act together and prove to the helicopter world that you can represent us just as well as you represent the fixed wing world.

Rameses III - You have summed up BALPA pretty well. The BALPA reps have to get themselves motivated to establishing a "party line" across the company divide with an agreed strategy of the minimum demands for the next pay round.

Rameses,
sorry to hear that your meeting was poorly attended. All pilots must make every effort to be there on these occasions, this shows management that we are a strong, determined and united workforce that need to be listened to. The rep from New Road would be less likely to leave early if he were confronted by a room full of voiciferous pilots.

Roundwego,
Don't expect, or allow, your reps to establish a party line, they will only get it wrong. It's up to you, the members, to tell them what the party line is, after all, they were elected as your mouthpiece. If they don't do it properly, kick their buts until they do what you, the majority, want.

Finally,
I am not having a go at either of you, just the system and the general apathy of some of the pilots on both sides of the runway.

Finally, finally, put this together very quickly so hope it makes sense.

Don't give up the fight,
Chopperman.

Sounds like the rumours of SFO's crossing the runway from Bristow to Scotia are more than just Heresay. I believe 6 or 7 co-pilots have handed in their notice this week and have been offered jobs across the road - Good luck to them.

Maybe the management will learn that flying one red, white and blue helicopter is much the same as another ! Its all about pay and conditions and if they're better elsewhere, then they can't expect to keep their staff.

Any news on the meeting taking place in ABZ today? What has been offered? Those south of the border would like to know prior to our meeting tomorrow!

Back to the old days in the North Sea!

Is that true that Scotia Pilots have rejected a further 12.5% payrise (accross the board) + additional £3,200 (captains only), and now they're asking for 50%????

If that's true, it just shows how good this chance is for us... good luck to them!

And what are BHL drivers going to ask for now?

Happy flight :)

[This message has been edited by 100%RPM (edited 01 June 2001).]

Strike and working to rule.

These are the only answers Scotia and Bristows will understand.

OLOG operating results for year ending 31 March 2001.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010604/3237.html

To 100% RPM
The deal was only about 6% and for captains only. Don't know where the additional 3200 you quoted came from but it isn't offered.

A simple principle in building a successful business "keep your customers" you are going nowhere if for every new customer you get you are loosing an existing one. This is also true of your employee's, the first principle should be to keep what you've got, in aviation this is even more critical because of lead times involved in getting experienced people to the line.

Look at the work force, the young, middle and old, the old may have the loudest bark but sadly no teeth, these people are not going any where fast, most have nice FS pension and will stay. The young well there bonded to start with. All these people are at the start of there careers building experience and hours. The North Sea is the place to do this and most will stay in the medium term. The week spot is the middle ground SFO’s and mp pension type Captains, keep these people happy and your on a winner. Forget giving any of these groups exclusive deals at the expense of the rest this will not achieve the desired effect “retention” and will only serve to alienate the other two groups.

Target the problem with a simple solution. Offer the work force a loyalty payment for signing an agreement to remain with the company for a five year period .10K on signing followed by an annual loyalty payment of 10% of the annual salary paid in arrears for every full years service.

Take a look over your shoulder....look at the way the companies are trying to hold on to their engineers *NOT*.

Plenty of experience walking out of the door, and no offers to make them stay.

Another thing is the operating margins for the North Sea. Bristow is now 2.6% to 3.5%, where are these 10% bonuses and 10K good boy wedges coming from?

Wake up, it's a real world out there.

400hz,
With an attitude like yours it's no wonder the wages have fallen so far behind. The poor profit margins are the companies problem, not ours. What we have to do is redress the erosion of our wages, (Pilot, Engineer what have you), over the past years.
We now have the opportunity to do this, how Bristow or Scotia find the money is their problem.
Most of us have woken up, have you?

[This message has been edited by chopperman (edited 07 June 2001).]

Will you two stop bitching (stikker/400HZ. We need to stick together so we can stick it to them and get what we want! Roll on the presentation of our pay claim.

Sadly I agree with North Sea Phantom. Bristow and Scotia don't give a damn about our pay and conditions as long as the shareholders are happy. They will use delay tactics as long as possible, try and divide and conquer the workforce. Bristow pilots have a problem with low BALPA membership. What happens if the company target "special deals". Are we a united workforce? Until we are, the management will have the upper hand and will continue to reward us with S... all! It is all too easy to criticise BALPA and I am a chief culprit. However, in fairness we are not giving them a mandate to bargain with and until we do, I am afraid BALPA are a toothless tiger. So get out there, join BALPA, and let us really take on the management. I agree with all said before, it is irrelevant to us, what Bristow profits are. If they need more they go to the client and ask. The oil companies cannot survive without us. I suspect market forces will eventually cause a late reaction by our management, but by then it may well be too late. Talk about head in the sand management!

Unfortunately it seems that North Sea Phantom is correct. We can bicker amongst ourselves we can whinge but it will get us nowhere. Until Bristow pilots see the light and realise that BALPA is the only forum that can possibly work we are p.....g into wind. At present with our pathetically low membership, the company management are laughing. Divide and conquer will be their theme and gentlemen, "watch this space". "Special deals" to parts of the workforce will screw a huge portion of the work force. Admittedly market forces will eventually dictate our pay but by then it may well be to late.

Our negotiations are with our own company management. Those of you out there saying it is a real world out there, you are damned right, but don't accept the paltry pay rises we are being bludgeoned with. The oil companies WILL pay WHATEVER they have to in order to service their industry. Our costs are a ripple in the ocean in comparison to their corporate profits. Come on North Sea Pilots lets get unified and give our union some power and ourselves some decent pay and conditions.

At last! Some-one talking sense. Tuckunder, I couldn't agree more. We need to be united and the best way to do that is join Balpa, ALL of us, give the our company councils a mandate to do what WE want them to do and the power to do it.
So those of you who want change and are not members; join, if only for a year, give it a chance, you pay a reduced rate for the first couple of years.

Chopperman.

I agree completely with your idea of unity. All North Sea Pilots need to contact their respective CCC's, joining BALPA is totally another subject.

QM,
It's nice to be in agreement with some-one at last. Just one quick point, I'm not sure how it is in Bristow but across the runway the CC are elected by Balpa members and represent said Balpa members in all negotiations with the Company. In theory you must be a Balpa member to have a say.

Don't give up the fight,

Chopperman.

Yes intriguing, doesn't appear to be the same a BHL. If it is, then things have gone awfully wrong, as there is a lot of discension in the Balpa ranks at the moment.

We have people talking of daft rate increases, as someone put it, 160 pilots with 150 different pay award idea's. It is getting very tiresome to try and get them united.

Keep up the good work chaps, I was glad to see the feeling at the meeting the other week.

[This message has been edited by QM (edited 18 June 2001).]

Canadian Helicopters year end results to 30 April 2001.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010627/to292.html

Hi,

can anyone tell me what rosters people work from ABZ now and what they are changing too in due course.

I have heard that they are supposed to be going to 4 on/3 off (4/3), and 8 on/6 off (8/6)in due course but I am not sure of the timing.

also I have heard (not verified) that at the moment it is 5/2, or sometime more complicated like 5/2 then 4/3 then 7/7 which would appear to give you a full week off in every 4.

what should someone new expect when they start?

I’m wondering what's the difference between Scotia and BHL pilots, because the deals they’re getting are completely different, even after the recent offer BHL has just made to its pilots:

SFO year 1:

SCOTIA:
Basic pay: £37,804
Pension: GPP, company contributes with 7.5%
Roster: 4 on :3 off, (192 on : 173 off per year once holidays are included)
Future pay rise: asking for 46%, if not industrial action will be taken.

BHL:
Basic pay: £36,633
Pension: GPP, company contributes with 5%
Roster: 4 on : 2 off (223 on : 142 off per year once holidays are included)
Future pay rise: ????

----

Captain year 21

SCOTIA:
Basic pay: £60,054
Roster: 4 on :3 off, (192 on : 173 off per year once holidays are included)
Future pay rise: asking for 46%, if not industrial action will be taken.

BHL:
Basic pay + North Sea Commander allowance: £58,399
Roster: usually 4 on : 2 off (average 220 on : 145 off per year once holidays are included)
Future pay rise: ????

----

Any ideas?

Interesting figures that bear no resemblance to those on the BALPA web site (which do agree with my own knowledge). Their figures suggest that Scotia don't even have a year 21 point for Captains?

The "recent" pay offer to BHL must be very recent as I had an e-mail yesterday from a colleague in Scatsta saying "still no news on the pay review".

I look forward to being corrected.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: 212man ]

100% is correct. The Balpa web site has not yet been updated to take account of the recent Scotia pay review.

Chopperman.

Oh what a surprise. A totally derisory pay offer from BHL. When are our management going to realise that in order to Recruit and Retain (as is the declared intention), they need to pay market forces. Well colleagues if we vote to accept this, I'm off. The sad part is that some managers think it is a good deal.

Hello 212man

Would you like the BHL " 2001 pay and benefits review" to be faxed to you ?

I know that there is absolutely no difference between the Bristow and Scotia pilots: they both sit down for a p!ss. :rolleyes:

Well with the pay deal that the engineers excepted you must be in the next cubicle!

Thanks Pat but I'm leaving tomorrow but will be in Redhill next Monday, so should get the low down then. Glad to hear I was wrong though I guess the figures 100% are referring to are have not actually been adopted yet.

As one of those that keep the UK public awake in the wee small hours, flying the boys in blue around with their 'see in the dark in the dark camera' and the big Maglight , I am watching the salary threads with a great deal of interest. The emergency services pilotage suppliers are also suffering with a loss of pilots to the fixed wing world for more money and big chair in a bay window. I'm just as peeved by the huge differential in pay. The larger North Sea comapnies have enough pilots that a union and the threat of industrial action may get results Not the case I suspect in the widely spread, thinly manned world of emergency services. So, whilst may I riding on your backs as it is you who are taking the action, I, or we as I probably speak for many of the Emergency services pilots, are behind you and also thank you in advance, because what you achieve today, will eventual trickle down to me. :rolleyes:

BB,

You are right.

The UK emergency services have relied too long on experienced pilots prepared, for a number of reasons, to work for a salary well below the market average.

One reason was a surplus of ex-services pilots at the time Air Support and Air Ambulance units were being set up in the early 1990s.

The main factor allowing salaries to stay suppressed appears to be that BALPA has traditionally shown little interest in this area of employment.

This caused this group of pilots to be reluctant to join BALPA, so the problem became compounded. I was at one time keen to join BALPA but events involving the North Sea market a couple of years back made me throw my completed application in the bin because I realised that I may as well throw the membership fees down the toilet. I have since moved on because I could not support my family and (relatively simple) lifestyle on the salary.

The providers of pilotage are now, unsurprisingly, feeling the pinch as existing pilots have woken up to the fact that they are not getting a fair deal and are leaving in some numbers. Also, there are no longer large numbers of heli pilots leaving the armed services. An increasing proportion of those that do are obtaining fixed-wing licences instead of rotary because of the better rewards available.

Air Support and Air Ambulance Units not directly employing pilots on a decent salary are now entering into a period of instability because pilots are NOT going to stay long, but will merely use this type of flying as a stop-gap employment. Both types of unit deserve better than this, after all they are providing an important public service.

The hierarchy need to wake up and be prepared to pay the market rate. I for one would go back to it tomorrow if this were to happen. Let's hope that the improved salary recently offered by Humberside Police is a sign of recognition of the facts and that others will follow suit.

But then we all have known this for some time, haven't we? A certain saying involving peanuts and monkeys is becoming relevant.

ShyT :(

Sorry, this isn't meant to dilute the North Sea thread, but for those of us not on North Sea salaries and with no recognised BALPA representation the 'alternative' professional body, the Independent Pilots' Association (IPA) is in the process of metamorphosing into a 'union'. Watch this space?
To my former BHL colleagues and those in Scotia: thanks and keep up the good work chaps. (and chapesses!)
:rolleyes:

[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Multp ]

This neatly answers a question I posed some time ago about rates of pay. Can anyone give me a contact number for Scotia? I have Dominique Howletts but he's never there!

Are Scotia still interested in 4500hr ex mil types?

The difference is that Scotia pilots are willing to refuse overtime, talk seriously about industrial action and stand together for what they know is right. If this upsets some people then tough, the truth sometimes hurts.

Ps, i'm wearing my nomex suit as I type as I know i'm going to get flamed for this but it had to be said.

Chopperman.

:D
Chopperman,
torched for what? It's true but we're getting there; and I might buy you a pint next time we meet united.

Emergency Services Pilots don't despair just yet !!!! At long last the divide and rule policy in one of the leading providers of pilots is being broken down. Pilots are talking together from units all over the country and moves are afoot to get BALPA recognised by the company. There are enough of us in the union to make it so and with the support of all the workforce (not just the mutterings of the past) we can make a difference. We need to make our voices heard by both the management and the customers if we are not to fall even further behind. So speak up and make sure the people who matter know that we are not happy and that at long last we are determined to try and do something about it.

Sorry if we are in danger of hijacking this North Sea thread. BearintheAir, that is good to hear. Please could keep me, or should that read the rest of us, update. Indeed, e-mail me with any usefulinfo if you feel it's at that stage yet. Is this worth a thread of it's own, I posted the original support message expecting that to be that, but there obiviously is a lot of discontent out there in the Air Support Units.

Letsbe Avenue: Scotia will probably be very interested in your 4500hrs as most of the pilots starting now are self improvers. Although they are high quality or they would not have made it on line in the North Sea your experience will do you no harm and will enable you to move a bit further up the pay scales when you have finished your training.

"At long last the divide and rule policy in one of the leading providers of pilots is being broken down. Pilots are talking together from units all over the country and moves are afoot to get BALPA recognised by the company."

That'll be PAS, then. It can't be Bond, 'cos there won't be anyone left in a few months...

elpirata

We have been promissed a 4/3 roster and as yet they have failed to deliver as they have not been able to attract enough pilots to meet demand. The L2 fleet (4 Puma mk2's soon to be 5) are on a 5/2 5/3 7/6 roster at present and that seems well recieved, but it's not all roses as they have three duty periods, E= Earlies 0600-1600hrs, M= Middles 0800-2200hrs, and L 1000-2300hrs and you only know what your report time is the night before by means of a telephone call to a automated answer machine. As for what you will find when you get here well I can only sujest you read the north sea topics on this forum. Hope this makes sense to you and all as I am posting this whilst having a intimate night in with Mr Daniels (Jack to his friends).

Cheers :p

MaxNg, that roster is certainly better than over the road, and you get more money.
Before you finish off 'Jack'. What's the story with your additional pay rise?
A decent roster combined with comparable fix wing money could see a number of chaps coming over for an improved lifestyle.

This is to anyone in Scotia! Are you really looking for 46%?

Happy Flying

Disstings

management and BALPA are working on a package to bring to the pilots on the 28th of Sept, till then my new found friends across the tarmac can I make the following recomendations.

Dont sell yourself short during your negotiations, if you can hold out until we sort out our situation that will strengthen our possition during this period. I believe that our management are hopeing that you settle early and cheaply thus giving them the stick to beat us with. Please stay focused on the main objective which is a return to sensible salaries on the North sea and long may our new found comradship drive this forward

Best Regards :)

Yes
Yes
Yes
And we are very very Serious

:)

Extract from the Ryanair website

quote;-

Thank you for contacting the Ryanair.Com website. Our recruitment needs are driven by the delivery of twenty-eight new Boeing 737-800's, over a five year period, the first fifteen of which are already in operation in advance of the launching of new low fares routes, this spring. We will take delivery of the next eight aircraft for the Spring of 2002 which will coincide with the launch of eight new low fares routes. We have recently purchased our own Boeing 737-800 and 737-200 Simulator facility which will be up and running by this summer. This will provide Ryanair with a dedicated training facility. The location for this new facility has yet to be finalised. The delivery of these new aircraft means we will be requiring a substantial number of both Captain's and Co-pilots over the next twelve to eighteen months. Our preference is for B737 type-rated pilots for both our B737-200 and B737-800 fleets. We may however have some opportunities for non type-rated pilots to complete Boeing 737 Full Conversion Courses, but these are limited.


Benefits package


[B]We offer an industry leading remuneration package. We have just signed a new pay and conditions agreement with our pilots which will see senior Captains earning's rising to STG £102,000 plus and First Officer's earnings rising to STG £70,600 plus (gross earnings inclusive of sector pay), over the next five years. We also offer participation in our share option scheme and excellent travel benefits.

From Bristow pilots:

For everybody to know.

Bristow pilots at Aberdeen rejected the pay rise offer by a vast majority (48 out of 50 members who were present at the Balpa meeting). The meeting itself was a success, if you consider that the members total at Aberdeen is 73, and 6 pilots who were flying had also named proxies to reject the offer on their behalf (taking the rejection up to 54 out of 58)

Furthermore 44 out of 50 were prepared to go on strike if needed so that the CC had enough power when going back to the negociation table. CC and pilots... well done!

Don't sell yourself short!

MaxNg

thanks for that very informative, my first thought was that that sounds quite good.

what rosters do the normal super puma people do? (are they called an L1 ?)

Well done all. A united workforce on both sides of the runway, marvelous; never thought I would see that.
Keep at it,
Chopperman.

Yes indeed this is good news. Lets hope that our colleagues down south of the border are as united as we now appear to be. Once the ballot is complete it will be over to you BALPA CC, don't let us down. With both helicopter workforces so united the time where the dog starts wagging its tail rather than the other way round is nigh. I repeat what I have said before, if your not in join, if you are in vote!

For everyone's interest, Niel Osborne stated when pushed in our forum, that his aim was parity with medium body jet pay within 3 years.

I understand that those who are not with Balpa will be counted as accepting the pay offer! Is this fact or fiction ?

To my north sea chums!! Keep it up!

I'm now Emergency Services, but with an ear to the ground where the North Sea is concerned.

For those who are interested I've just had a fairly substantial pay hike....not quite to Humberside Police levels...but nearly! By the way...we're short a pilot!!!

Keep up the good work! Now's the time to strike & close the rediculously large gap between actual & realistic salaries!!

Its fiction Patrick. However, why not join and help the cause. They also give you a nice little personal organiser!!!

Actually Tuckunder, it's also up to you when the ballot is over. It's up to you and all the other BALPA members because we are the ones that direct the BALPA CC in their next "battle" with management. Remember, the CC are our voice and we decide as a complete body where to go next. We cannot all be in the meeting so we give them dierection by giving them their new mandate.

You make it sound as if the BALPA CC are responsible for everything. They are not - WE ARE, and they are our mouth piece. WE get it wrong, we are all at fault - not the CC nor are New Road.

Tuckunder

I have been "in" ever since the North Sea Pilots's Association started back in 1983.
However, I have never used their personal organiser.

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: Pat Gerard ]

Speedwing:
Yes absolutely I couldn't agree more. However, we are not at the negotiating table and we rely on the CC to do our business for us. I think by the end of the ballot they will know where we are coming from.
Pat Gerard:
Sorry! Glad to hear you are in and sorry you haven't used the natty little organiser!

So Scotia are going ahead with the plan to change their callsigns from the alpha-numerics to a four digit - all the PD originating flights being 4xxx. I've been doing some simulator runs to get a feel for the potential for callsign confusion and the increased workload they might create - I reckon we'll have to be a bit more vigilant for the next couple of weeks.

Just wondering if the Scotia crews have any particular opinions about it?

U R NumberOne

This is brought about by the introduction of Scotia's latest fully intergrated operations software which co ordinates flight planning, maintainance schedules, rostering and scheduling.
This is just one in a great number of changes that has been introduced over the last few years or so, there has been so many changes ranging from the Ridiculous "the non handling pilot operating the collective on offshore departures (setting the power), whilst the Handling pilot operates the cyclic" ??? I'm not quite sure now who was operating the pedals !!!!!
maybe it was one each(S**T)
To the Sublime "reminding our pax to hold the handrail when leaving tha AC

Hello No.1 ....so it's all systems go then. Even though this change appears not to take into account AIC 107/2000 (pink 14) from which I quote..

"Of the callsign confusion occurrences:
84% involved Numeric callsigns
10% involved Alphanumeric callsigns...."

"When allocating callsigns operators are requested to....

a) avoid using similar numerical callsigns within own company..

d) consider starting flight number elemment sequences with a higher number eg:6 and above

e) try to minimise use of callsigns involving four digits and, wherever possible, use no more than three digits..

I have said it before....if airlines such as British Airways, bmi British Midland, Brymon, British Regional etc,etc can all cope with having one number for ticketing/timetables/joe public and a different one for ATC why can't CHC Scotia?

Oh well, suppose one could adopt what our cousins over the pond do..... "Helibus Forty three, seventy six, cleared for take off..."

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Scotia management read an AIC? I doubt very much if they even know what they are.

Fair pay for Helicopter pilots,

Chopperman.

What do you expect when Operations is run by the Commercial department.

....and the first two off the production line are..... HKS4271 and HKS4281 - DOH!

Doing an ILS back to PD? Just repeat after me...

"QFE1005-1181-4344"

(Data Dad please note - I'm not advocating the dropping of the "decimal" in a frequency nor the company callsign!)

Hope we never go to 8.33 KHz spacing on the North Sea :eek:

I can't say that I agree with the changing of flight no's, but come on Max NG...what this cr*p about the non-handling pilot "operating the collective on offshore departures"....don't take the pi*s!!

Often there's mis-information...them there's complete boll*cks!


Happy Landings!!

First weekday of using these new callsigns and we've already had one heli responding to a fixed-wing's callsign, and one reading back the wrong heading (which happened to be the last three digits of his new callsign). I never had one readback "turning onto 23D". Why don't some of you rotorjocks point out Datadad's AIC to your management?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Never Mr Gap - I asume u r a controller. Is it standard practice to MOR call sign confusions like this?

roundwego

If the callsigns are creating a potentially dangerous situation, then yes - we file reports, and in due course things should be changed for the better. Contrary to some beliefs we don't whinge about it because its different, it's because as ATCOs we know what has the potential to create confusion as. Unfortunately it can take a serious incident to occur (and the resultant paperwork) in order for a change to happen.

Just heard that with effect from tomorrow the company are reverting to alpha-numerics.

That was faster than I thought!

Well chaps what's happening then :confused: I hear your boss wants to wait until Friday for some reason? Anything to do with the Bristow vote ending then :D

As Scotia and Bristow management talk to each other every day as to how each other's negotiations are going on, I suspect that Scotia already know that the Bristow pay ballot is only to bring the Bristow pilots up to the same pay level that Scotia are presently at.

No doubt they are aware that Bristow has already started bench marking talks and that their pilot workforce could be at the same situation that Scotia are in within weeks.

Perhaps it might have something to do with the fact that Dobbins is selling a lot of his shares in CHC? Have a look at the Rotorhub website.

Hmmm, Interesting. Let's see what happens tomorrow.

Is this true after all we have been hearing about 30-40% increases? What a cop out. :mad:

With 400 pilots from BA alone soon to flood the market - I would take the money and be grateful! :eek:

Oh yeah? And how many of them will have helicopter licences, be prepared to relocate to ABZ, and still be there in 12 months time?

QM

I see that the teletext pages are reporting that Bristows have settled and thus avoided a strike on the N sea. Somewhere between 7 to 19% can you shed any light on this ?? :eek:

Bristow have indeed agreed the latest pay offer. Agreed 62% vs 38% in favour.

I'm not sure how the rises figure all the way along the board, but the average Captain gets about 7 or 8 % with other SFO's etc getting up to about 11 or 12%. I don't know of anyone getting 19% !!!

Ally 1987,
I imagine that a few will have helicopter licences, especially those who left the north sea for pastures greener. I doubt if many will want to come back to Aberdeen, but when you have no job and the future looks bleak, then Aberdeen could look very attractive indeed.

Chopperman.

The pilots in England get pay rises as much as 19% because they did not get the Aberdeen Allowance before. As the Aberdeen Allowance is now gone, all pilots in Bristow are now on the same scales.

I see in the press today that as well as Bristow accepting their latest pay offer, Scotia pilots will be offered next week deals which mean that Captains can get pay increases of £21000 by May 2004 and co-pilots £10000 by the same date. However, Scotia has stated that this would mean some re-structuring in the company (another word for redundanciies?!)

Also with Bond now talking to oil companies, and manufacturers about aircraft, I expect that those that would be made redundant due to either these pay scale increases or contract losses will no doubt be sucked up by Bond at lower pay scales (and in a company that will no doubt have no BALPA or other union recognition!!)

[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: BHPS ]

Chopperman--

Fair point, but I suspect they will stay for the absolute minimum time.

BHPS--

With most of Scotias pilots on 800 hours a year I don't see how they are going to be any redundancies. Maybe the restructuring will be closing the final salary pension scheme or other alteration.

My understanding is that this pay rise just puts Bristows pilots on the same scales as Scotia are at the moment i.e. pre-40% pay rise. If Scotia get the latter then the Bristows' pilots will be going straight back for more.

What's this I heard on Friday from one of our cc members about Scotia being offered 20% this year and 20% next year?

Ally 1987

True that may be the case at the moment, however, restructuring could also mean cutting back on other support staff such as engineers and admin, or even using Daily Rate Pilots a lot more so that the company then doesn't have to pay the pension contributions!

These are only posibilities though. As you say Scotia need the pilots at the moment to crew their their flights.

Ally 1987

Quite correct, the offer that Bristow aircrew have accepted is only to bring them up to the same salaries as Scotia pilots. I believe that Bristow has already started their bench-marking talks with the aim at getting something similar to Scotia.

QM

If that is the case I doubt Scotia aircrew will accept it as they wanted everying immediately. Unless there has been a change of feelings within the workforce, I doubt that they will accept it this time either. Don't know if the figures quoted in the press were correct though, judging as how badly the press have got the stories wrong in the recently, ie Bristow SAR crews walking out, etc!

Hi Gents,....can anyone confirm Pilot's acceptance of Bristow management's offer and how much? Down here in Australia we're hoping for 30-40% after negotiations next year. Anything that you guys achieve will help our cause. Already behind UK as far as income versus cost of living is concerned. Can anyone shed light on whether Scotia has been offered or accepted anything.

Yes Bristow have started benchmarking talks, a couple of Tuesday's ago (if gray cells serve me correctly). Our Chief cc member stated it made progress, but we all know how fluid things are at the moment.

Yes the press are notoriously inaccurate :D

From information received from Scotia, I was curious if a strike date has been set, as time would be running out from the last ballot!

The last ballot was not a strike ballot. That has still to be carried out and if memory serves me correctly, I think that the ballot is over a 4 week period. If the vote is to strike, then the company has to be given 6 weeks notice, including details of the action that will be taken, by law. That means the earliest Scotia will be striking (if it goes that far in the present atmosphere of pilot jobs in the fixed wing world becoming almost non-existent) is 2-3 months from now!!

BHPS, Thanks, I was curious about that!

What’s happening in CHC Scotia subsidiaries, CHC Ireland and CHC Denmark. Have these pilots received similar pay offers? and if not why not?

Stikker - can you email me?

Got your message Stikker - just wanted to exchange a few notes. Email me when you can. Cheers.

outofbalance did you receive my email

All you Scotia Types , what's happening ? Is no news good news?

We now have our our own forum on Yahoo.com so all our rantings can now be held in some privacy, but I can tell you that the feeling is very strong in favour of industrial action as the scotia management have refused to return to the negotiating table even after a personal invitation from Mr C dark BALPA Chairman to CHC's Mr S Allard.

Sell your shares in Brent oil before S--T hits the fan

why not give all scotia pilots access to this new site

Stikker,
The site was set up for Balpa members to air their views on the current dispute. Any Scotia pilot can take part if he/she is an association member. It's proving to be a very good forum.
Chopperman.

It is a shame that the rantings have to be in private but good luck to the Scotia guys& gals. It's about time the oil companies and the management team realised your true worth and sorted out those terms and conditions.

Chequesplease
Thankyou for your words of support.

I can asure you that the feelings of the large majority of pilots at scotia is one of anger that our managers are not taking us seriously.

we would prefer our resolve not to be tested but if it is then they will be very sorry indeed. :mad:

Mmm. We'll see. When I was there, too many people had serious spinal deficiencies. I suspect if strike action is voted for at the end of this month these will manifest themselves once more.

Ally 1987

It seems that you may have been one of the weakest links.

Goodbye!

Well, you know what they say: anyone with any get up and go has got up and gone.

I think that IF the vote goes for Strike action, it either won't get a chance to occur and the powers that be will step in just in the nick of time, or it will be VERY short lived.
But I'm behind you guys all the way. Fight for what you deserve!!

Thanks for your support Skidtoob, I hope you're right. If all goes well, I hope that the results of the action will be felt throughout the UK helicopter industry to the benefit of all.

Fair pay and a fair deal for helicopter pilots,

Chopperman.

I wish I was as sanguine. If the vote goes for strike action, I hope that all Scotia pilots are prepared to go for the jugular - the oil companies will not back down....

It's a common misconception amongst some people that Scotia pilots are in dispute with the oil companies. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have no contact with the likes of BP, Shell or any other oil giant. We are employed by CHC Scotia and as such our dispute is with them and no-one else.

Chopperman.

It seems to me the likes of Scotia and Bristow have to decide who's best interests they have in mind, their own staff or the oil companies.

I dare say if they truly cared about their own staff, Scotia pilots would not be looking at possible job action to make their point.

It's time certain operators started to appreciate the job their own people do for them instead of finding new and creative ways to stick the bat up their backsides. :cool:

All the best to the Scotia lads and ladys in the coming weeks.

The pay aspirations of Scotia pilots are not excessive. In 1990 the Retail price Index was 125 the RPI now is 175 an increase of 40% or an average 4% per year. Their pay has gone up on average 3% per year. Therefore in real terms they have lost 10% of their pay (uncompounded). The oil companies will depress rates in the bad times but will need to be pushed to increase them in the good times. No fly no oil. :eek: :eek:

Any time Chopperman. I think that you guys deserve all that you are asking for!

I have another theory, and please correct me if I am wrong. Could it be that once strike action has been agreed the said Employer is going to go running to the oil companies with their hands in the air saying it's not us it's them, we need more money from you to pay them.

I hope that this isn't the case, as it could give you guys an uncalled for bad press.

Keep on fighting and fly safe!

Sorry, but I can't agree that this fight isn't with the oil companies (at least in part). And if strike action starts they won't sit on their hands....

No they wont be sitting on their hands, they'll be using them to write out a big fat cheque to prevent the mutiny offshore when the bears realise their sojourn offshore might be a little longer than expected! ;) ;)

I don't think so, but good luck anyway.

Well I am new to this game but my observations are as follows. Scotia pilots think they deserve more money do they?. I am a Scotia pilot and I am fed up listening to the hypocrisy being banded around in the crew room and posted on the Yahoo.com forum. It is nothing to do with "pilot retention". Every pilot is in the game for their own individual interests and the present commercial situation has given us the strongest opportunity to screw some more money out of our employers. Yes you can argue about employers vs oil companies but all the pilots want is to take advantage of the situation (even although Sept 11th has weekened it somewhat). It is no different to the helicopter companies who have taken advantage of the situation to push the rates up and the oil companies who have taken advantage of their circumstances in the past to screw their suppliers or customers when they can. It is called Capitalism. At the end of the day a judgement is made by all which will balance short termism with long termism and take a gamble on what can be achieved. Even although Scotia (CHC) is doomed in the long term due to their poor quality management, who can blame us for trying to get what we can out of this. At the end of the day it is dog eat dog. The only sad factor is that Scotia management has not got the skill to manage the situation properly and has allowed the situation to get out of hand. Lets face it, Scotia will make us redundant at the drop of a hat when they lose contracts. We might as well make hay while the sun shines before we are sacked and end up having to work for Bond when they take the work from scotia!

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: coalface ]

Well Everyone, I hope you do get all that you want. I worked in the offshore heli industry for some time and I can empathise with your situation.

What I would say is that 2 months ago, many fixed wing operators were keen to retain and recruit as many pilots as they could. The knock on effect was large pay demands by the workforce. Sit back and look at things now..................

The fixed wing employment market has now dried up overnight, and you may soon be flying with some old collegues!

Strike (no pun intended) while the iron is hot, and all the best!

Cheers

Erik

Coalface,
Well said. I've worked for quite a few operators and never yet found one with decent management. In most cases you could see how the management got where they were and, therefore, why they behaved as they did. Back in the old days (the grumpy old ****** reminisced) there was no real management as such and our leaders were benevolent despots, but at least, even if you didn't like them, you could respect them. Now, with beancounters ruling the world, only the weak and sycophantic, or the truly nasty get to the top. The result speaks for itself - I'm still looking for a posting on these forums where any pilot, engineer or ATCO talks of how happy he is with his lot or what a great employer he works for.
EFIS is great in the tropics eh? Flying in a rubber bag is great too. In Victorian times little children crawled around in the coal mines dragging around baskets of coal behind them, then something called progress came along and changed all that. Mind you, there are no coal mines in UK now. Ah well that's progress for you. The helicopter industry still employs children to drag around the baskets. But then I guess I'm just an old cynic. :cool:

Interesting thread, but remember, our colleagues that departed to the fixed wing world and are now trying to return, will be off like a shot when it starts recruiting again (probably not as long as everyone thinks).

Having spent that much money, time and effort converting, who would stay in this dwindling industry, especially having experienced the comfort factor of the modern aircraft cockpits?

When are the results of the strike ballot being made public?

Just on the local six o'clock news: 80% of those who returned ballots voted for strike action.
Not bad, but anyone know what proportion of the _total_ workforce this is?

Well done and all the best!!!

CHC update on UK pilots negotiations and strike ballot

ST. JOHN'S, Newfoundland, Oct. 31 /CNW/ - CHC Helicopter Corporation ("CHC") (TSE: FLY.A - news and FLY.B - news; NASDAQ: FLYA; advises that the strike ballot conducted by BALPA, the union representing 149 of the 209 pilots employed by CHC's UK operating subsidiary, CHC Scotia Limited, was concluded today. Of 149 pilots represented by BALPA, a total of 138 votes were cast, with 109 unionized pilots voting to authorize strike action at a future date and 29 voting against. Accordingly, 73% of the unionized pilot work force, but only some 52% of CHC Scotia's total pilot work force, have given a mandate to strike if the union decides to do so.

As previously advised, no withdrawal of services is permitted under UK law except after a 7 days formal written notice to CHC Scotia that strike action may be initiated; this strike mandate expires 28 days after completion of the strike vote (today).

In calling the strike vote a month ago, BALPA advised it was doing so in order to have CHC Scotia present a further, improved offer. CHC Scotia maintains that its current offer of salary increments over three years is very fair to its pilots in the existing market and represents a significant commitment from the employer.

CHC Scotia has offered to resume negotiations through an independent mediator, in order to facilitate a meaningful exchange of positions and to enhance the likelihood of settlement without a withdrawal of services. At this point, CHC Scotia is strongly of the view that third party assistance is necessary to achieve a mutually satisfactory resolution of this dispute. BALPA has not accepted mediation, but has indicated it would let members decide on the resumption of talks with a mediator.

CHC reiterates that its final offer of increased salary and pension benefits over the next three years is exceedingly fair to its pilot work force, as compared to others in the same profession worldwide and also to fixed wing pilots going forward. CHC Scotia is in constant communication with its UK customers on the status of negotiations, and with respect to the recent pressure from BALPA. CHC does not anticipate that this threat of industrial action will have a material adverse effect on the Corporation.

CHC Helicopter Corporation, through its subsidiaries and investments, is a leading provider of helicopter transportation services to the oil and gas industry, with a combined fleet of 324 helicopters operating in 21 countries, and more than 2,300 employees worldwide.

This press release and management's discussion and analysis may contain projections and other forward-looking statements within the meaning of the "safe harbour" provision of the United States Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. While these projections and other statements represent our best current judgement, they are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to vary. These statements may involve risks and uncertainties including, but not limited to, factors detailed in CHC's Annual Report on Form 20-F and in other filings with the United States SEC. Should one or more of these risks or uncertainties materialize, or should underlying assumptions prove incorrect, actual outcomes may vary materially from those indicated.

Mmm. 80% doesn't look so good in the light of the CHC numbers.
On the other hand, if 50% of the total workforce walk off the job, even for a day or two at a time, it'll cause them ever escalating problems.

Could someone please tell me where the enhanced pension benefits were in the package, or did I miss something??!!

Best of luck to you all.

Sounds like Bristows will be making some 'Quality Money' soon enough.

Best of luck boys & girls, any stike action will be over in a couple of days (if it happens at all) as the effect it will have offshore will be quickly felt. Now if the Bristows pilots come onboard (and I hope they will, its in their interest as well) a good deal will be found, but it will not make up for the years of poor pay and awful rosters. Maybe - with sensible pay & conditions pilots might be attracted back into the industry again :D

Semirigid rotor

While in no doubt that Bristow pilots are very much in support for Scotia's forthcoming action, the Conservative Government put in place laws which prevent "secondary picketing". This effectively means that if they come out in support of Scotia, they are in breach of their own contract and could lose their job. Secondary action is now illegal in the UK.

Best of luck everyone; as semirigid implies there are some of us who've done it before [in my case for 10 years] and would do it again - if the deal was right.

The above are correct in that we at bristow can not 'come out in support' of Scotia but I don't see that being too much of an issue as we can barely crew our own flights !

Understand you had a meeting on Thursday night to discuss what action would be taken - Any outcome ?

The result of the meeting was that the company was given notice of strike action and another chance to sit down and clarify the pension stuff (if I remember what the P&J said correctly).
As to secondary action by Bristows being illegal, it is, but 'Argh! My back!' isn't... :)

Wait for the dust to settle, (Scotia aircrew take note, you could be next!) but it appears that the BHL CEO & management team have shafted those members of the final salary scheme pension (not even used KY).

Word is that it is history soon.

This is the price for the misguided loyalty those staff member showed by voting for the new pay deal. Yes, yes, the increase in pensionable pay went up and there was a merge rise on top. Also management looked good in front of the oil companies etc etc. But they failed to mention that they planned to flush the final salary scheme down the pan. Very under handed & two faced.

Only good point, all those very senior staff members in management positions that have only a few years employment left, will no doubt make this a ‘bloody’ fight. As they along with everyone else affected have much to lose.

Perhaps there will be ‘Industrial action’ after all in the near future on the North Sea. This time try to vote YES. Loyalty is out dated, management has shown you that, so learn from it.

Perhaps you will wake up and find it all a bad dream?

Cancel the new BMW 5 series lads, this is going to be a bumpy ride.

Nothing would suprise me but on what basis do you say that BHL "have shafted" the members of the FS scheme. You imply it has already happened. If you are a scheme member, I would be asking questions of your scheme trustees. Does BHL FS pension scheme have member elected trustees or are they all management appointed?

One could say that BHL "have shafted" the members of the FS scheme, if it is their intention not to contribute the required funds to it in light of the recent large increase in pensionable pay by converting allowances (but pathetic overall increase).

I believe that the BHL FS pension scheme has a couple of member elected trustees? But is the final say with them? I doubt it....this is more like an OLOG based idea to those on the end of the string on the pensions board.

Hopefully the company will promulgate some rumour busting news soon. Any jobs going at Scotia?? We at BHL almost work for free anyway.........!

Crabette, I agree, the trustees have no say. All they can do is try and manage the fund that the Company allows them to have. There are legal nets which will stop the fund becoming underfunded but at the end of the day, if the employer doesn't want to support the pension fund he can pull the plug completely. Unfortunately with both BHL's and Scotia's owners coming from across the pond where they don't like FS pension schemes, both UK managements will be put under severe pressure to cut their liabilities. This unfortunately will do nothing for the skills retention (and aquisition) problem. I would still like to hear more from NRDK on how reliable his information is.

Why blame the other side of the pond? It's our side of the pond that loves to be shafted.
Unfortunately it will divide the workforce even more in the prospect of future payrises about to be discussed. Just another carrot dangling in front of all to simple pilots.
What a sad story. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Perhaps ‘History’ was not quite the right word to have used just yet. (Hope you old heart is beating again?) After all the paper work to the staff hasn’t reached the notice boards to prove me wrong completely (I hope that’s the case).

Maybe……‘Undergo some changes & not for the better’, at least not for those who hoped to have the pension they contracted into when joining the company. Changes that were not mentioned when staff were briefed by management on WHY we should accept the pay negotiation.

But the writing is on the wall, the FS pension scheme will eventually be ……..?? This ‘possible’ unwillingness by the Company to fully fund the scheme is surely the precursor to it’s end.

Time will tell and don’t be surprised if the other side of the pond has had a helping hand in the push away from the FS pension scheme. 401K and all that.

[ 16 November 2001: Message edited by: NRDK ]

THE CHOPPER shouldn't get angry - stay calm and do your best to ensure negotiations stay sensible. At Scotia, a formula has been found to allow a significant payrise but not hazard the pension fund. The proposal is that only 2.5% per annum of the pilots' latest pay rise deal or RPI whichever is higher (plus normal increment and promotion advances) will be pensionable under the FS scheme; the rest is pensionable under the Money Purchase scheme. On the face of it, this protects the scheme for ALL final salary scheme members. When Bond & Brintel merged, we all thought that the FS scheme would be very vulnerable. So far, every indication from UK management is that it will survive. Management have agreed to allow BALPA financial experts to look at the schemes to help ensure their longevity (sp?). Having said that, there are severe pressures from across the pond. BHL staff shouldn't allow their management to browbeat them into submission by using the threat of losing the FS pension scheme. There are ways around protecting the scheme and giving the deserved pay increases. This issue should help unite the workforce not divide it

At Middle Wallop, with many members in the Pension scheme we feel a bit out on a limb. Our Management, themselves members of the scheme, are happy to bury their heads in the sand, but some aircrew and many engineers are writing to the Company Chairman to ask questions. Several of us are within a year of retirement - Does anyone know what the implications are of taking early retirement in the next three months?

Python - I'm a bit wary about posting this as I went three years early in the clear out just over two years ago and things might have changed since then - although I doubt it.

Going before the age of 58 results in a loss of 4% of your pension for each year of early retirement. It is pro rata for part years. The big problem for you is that early retirement is subject to Company agreement and obviously only happens when they are overborne with pilots.

I would have thought that closing the Scheme entirely would be extremely expensive for the Company in the short term, although the long term savings following any substantial pay rises for pilots must also be considerable.

As I said earlier, I have been out of it for two years, so I'm not aware of the details of the recent pay awards, but if the engineers and other staff have been given only inflationary pay rises, it would seem extremely unfair to close the Scheme because the pilots have at last started to creep towards fixed wing salaries - but since when did fairness come into decisions like these?

As far as I am aware the Trust Deed requires the staff - and pensioners - to be given three months notice of Scheme closure. The worrying thing for you would be that serving members are not even mentioned in the Trust Deed when it comes to priorities on winding up. First of all come pensioners, then GMP's and accrued rights to GMP's, state scheme premiums, equivalent pension benefits, widow or widower benefits etc, etc., although your accumulated fund will be protected by the rules of the Scheme.

It's a hell of a worry for you guys - hope it works out.

[ 24 November 2001: Message edited by: Speechless Two ]

I was under the impression that if you were in a FS scheme and the company decided to scrap this in favour of something else, then the new scheme was for new employees. Existing employees stayed with the FS scheme.
This was the case with my father and his company.
:confused:

What was the outcome from the negotiations between the pilots union and Bristol and CHC Scotia in the North Sea?

A mutually agreed compromise.

(Heard recently on a Saturday afternoon radio)

Bristol Schi**y Nil, CHC Wanderers One.

Next?

This forum has been very quiet about the recent report of CHC Scotia shedding 20% of the work force. I had understood that they were flat out trying to service their contracts - obviously not.

I had also assumed that the recent payrise indicated that the workforce was in a good bargaining position. Anyone in the know care to comment?

The pay negotations are underway, the first offer being refused, as far as we know.

From what I have heard the 20% cut is not quite that straightforward. It won't be 20% of the staff being made redundant. I don't think any of the engineers need fear for their jobs though, from what has been said!

Time will tell on this one, but there are going to be some changes, hopefully for the better.



"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

Once again the engineers have to suffer job cuts so as the pilots can have outlandish pay awards,,when will this stop,,???


Only when the companies truely realise the value of good engineers and ground staff,,lets just hope they realise in time,,!!!

But i doubt it very much,,,,head's buried in the sand of doom,,,!!!!

PS,,,anybody know what Barbados is like,,apart from warm and sunny,,??

Killabeez,
you obviously have information about the 'redundancies' at Scotia. As an employee of the company I am keen to know what is planned, so, could you please share your knowledge with us and post the details here?
many thanks in advance.

Chopperman,

I don't think you have ANYTHING to worry about!!!!

Most of what is being said is just speculation at the moment. It is believed that it isn't going to be strictly 20% redundancies.

There is this big shift going on at the moment with Astec/HS and from what we can make out it is going to be a move around of staff, so that less of them are allocated to "CHC Scotia" and work under Astec/HS. It all sounds very complicated to me!

There will be (again from what is being said) a few redundancies, but these are said to be office bods.

Will post anymore news as I hear!




"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

This whole business sounds like the usual old Brintel apauling management practices of not being able to manage its workforce properly due to its own incompetence. When it can't control the finances properly it goes into a panic "fire everyone we can" then in a couple of months time they will be re-hiring because the company can't do the job its paid to do because there aren't enough staff. How many times have we seen this before!

The only thing is, apparently CHC had a $/£22 million profit!!!!!!!!!!!!

Share prices are on the up.


What is going on that they aren't telling us???





"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

HeliEng - that's nothing! A good friend was just made redundant from an IT firm who shedded 10% of a particular division the same week they reported $2.2 BILLION profit in 9 months... There's no such things as a "job for life" these days...

Killerbeez and all

CHC pilots are represented by BALPA and consists of pilots (100% pilots) and there lies our STRENGHT, we are all affected by the same issues.

The Engineers are in the same unoin as the ramp staff and issues that affect them are somtimes at odds with the rest of it's members and there lies it's WEAKNESS.

The aircraft will not fly without pilots.
They will not fly without Engineering input ( well only for a short time!!!!)

DOH !!!

Thought for the day,,,***lets talk about redundancies for ground staff when pay negotiations are taking place***,,,,always a good PLOT by the managment,,takes your mind of the real objective,,
wink,,wink,,,,,:rolleyes:

PS,,,,,,,,,can i join BALPA,,,,,,( I can talk real posh and take the micky out of engineers) caus our union is *****,,!!!!!!!!!,,
And why must pay negotiations always come down to voting on strike action,,,2.5%,,,plze give us some credit,,,,,,,,so embarrassing for us and the customer,,!!!!

Get real you bosses,,,,give us what we rightly deserve,,!!!!!!!:o

So, killabeez, where in the engineering department would I find you? You are obviously a CHC Engineer, now the guessing game begins!!!





"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

I wish you lot would hurry up and get some sort of action underway, we (over the other side) are locked and loaded ready to make some serious dosh with the ADHOC flights we'll get.

Long may it all continue.

Well 400 hertz,,,,,,,,,,,,locked and loaded ey,,???(on the other side)
If you have lots of a/c standing around waiting for the opertunity of picking up ad/hocs I would be very worried about the lack of a/c utilization,,,
1>dont you think you should have work for these a/c,??
2>are'nt you just a tad worried that the a/c sit on the ground all day,??

Makes me think you have a large shortage of contracts,,,,
wonder why,,???????:confused:

NOW NOW !!

Girls no in-fighting that just gives the suits a warm feeling all over

:eek:

OF COURSE THE ENGINEERS AND GROUND GRUNTS ARE WORTH
A HELL OF A LOT MORE , HOWEVER SHOOTING FROM THE HIP WILL
DO NOTHING BUT AGGREVATE THE SITUATION. THE FIRST OFFER
IS NEVER THE BEST

NOBODY EVER GETS A GOOD DEAL ON THE FIRST PASS !!! THEREFORE YOU NEED TO REGROUP SIT BACK , THINK
AND PUT FORWARD THE REALISTIC CASE ..... WITHOUT
CHOKING ON YOUR OWN ROTORWASH AT SOME STAGE IN THE FUTURE...

hum,,,,,,all just a big game to some ey,,,,

But at the end of the day,,we will win !!!

The just rewards for the job we do,,,

i,m sure the pilots will stand with us in wishing us a decent pay award,,,,,( how else would they feel secure flying in machines that we sevice)

Would be very nice if a bristow engineer would pass on to me the pay scales of their engineers, then maybe we could have some barganing power,,:D

But as far as being worried,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,NO WAY<<!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Killabeez

What Bristows earn is not the issue, what you need are salary figures for engineers working for the airlines.

example unlicensed mechanic working for easytech.

basic £22,000 plus 25% bonus plus 15% permanent nights.
3% contribution to permanent pension. 33 days leave. 4 on 4 off shifts.

Cheers Rob,,,,,,,

Kinda makes licenced helicopter engineers wages look a bit sick,,,,,:(


Year 1>£22,000,,,,,,NO bonus of 25%..

Any more examples,,?????,,come on guys,,make me feel sick,!!!

Here is another.

Licensed engineer easytech

£32,500 plus 25% bonus plus 15% permi nights.
3% to private pension, 33 days leave, 4 on 4 off shifts
x1.3 night rate ot.

With ot most earned £50,000+ last year.

The Ryan Air package is reputed to be about £44,000.
Surely parity with airline salaries is what the rotary engineers should be aiming at?

Rumour has it that there are up to 25 pilots being let go.Any truth in this ?

Yes, this is correct




"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

Why!? What's the full story here? 10 minutes ago there weren't enough pilots to get the job done. :rolleyes:

Does anyone know how many pilots Scotia employs? 25 pilot redundancies seems like a huge amount.

O.K, this is what we know.

With all the shake up's at Scotia, outsourcing etc. The have been, if I remember correctly, 61 positions identified as no longer required. 31 new positions will be created when all the changes occur, leaving 30 which must go.

25 of these are pilots, and 5 are from the middle management pool.

That is all that we have been told.



"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

Looks like the old Brintel management running Scotia hasn't been able to change its spots since the old days when it could never plan more than a few days ahead. I am told that their training department has been busting a gut trying to get their pilot numbers up to their management's target and whenever it was achieved, the management said they now had too many.

Must be totally demoralising for the training captains and who would risk joining Brintel ( oops, I mean Scotia.....or do I ? ) when the chances are you will be sacked in a few months time. They fired pilots just after the Bond take-over then realised they had screwed up and started employing almost straight away. You would think they would learn but I doubt Brintel's competence to plan anything with any reliability.

Someone told me that Bond had never had to lay off pilots in 25 years. The ex Bond people in the company must see quite a difference. No point in giving anything extra for loyalty's sake nowadays. Just take your money and go home.

I presume the same is happening in engineering and other support functions. No wonder the oil companies have been desperately looking for a third operator for the North Sea. Any news on that front ??

We have been told that there will be no redundancies in Engineering.

As far as the other support departments go, they are the 31 jobs going but new positions opening in their place. What that is all about I don't know.

The rumour of a return to the North Sea by Bond, has apparently been confirmed as NOT TRUE. I think it is too much of a step at the moment. Also what with them pulling out of the contract at Blackpool, it sounds very feasable.

Time will tell.




"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

Bond were definitely going for contracts with the petroleum companies offshore...whether they have recently changed their minds or can't get in may have changed the situation somewhat.

Thomas Coupling,

The rumours were here too that Bond were in negotiations with some of the North Sea customers.

We have now been told that they no longer have plans to return to Dyce.


This came out a few weeks ago now.




"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

Am I the only one who can't believe that scotia are telling their professional crewmembres to wear civvies??? It's true though. What cost cutting measures are going to happen next?

Recently heard a rumour about a red heli operating to a rig in the Danish sector.

Yes it is true. They have said that pilots "will not wear uniform" while on the premises. Black bags have been provided in which uniforms will be placed to be given to the needy of the former Yugoslavia. So next time you are in Yugoslavia and you see street beggars wearing blue trousers, white shirt, tie and rank bars, you will know where the clothes came from (or else it is a sacked scotia pilot who can't afford the fare home from his/her holiday).

CHC seemed to me to be a company that put quite a lot into corporate identity but this latest move is one that takes away from the professional image of pilots and will do nothing to enhance the image of the company.


The next move will be to stop painting the helicopters in corporate colours. You can expect to see them coming out of major overall in the colour of the cheapest paint of the day.

What are your views about pilots and uniform? Should they be in casuals or uniform when at work?

In Norway we have been fighting to avoid uniforms for decades!!!

You Bristow pilots: This is your opportunity to throw that 2.WW uniform

:)

Was it just a red helicopter, or was it operated by a red helicopter operator??????? :D :confused: :D :confused:






"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

Does this only effect time on base, i.e out of the aircraft? Surely you guys & girls use Nomex for flight op's?

I would assume that they use rubber for flight ops!!;)

this rule refers to anywhere on base, the uniforms to be binned. As coalface said, they can be handed in for charity (or maybe terrorists!). Apparently the money saved will be used for the supply of under rubber garments. I think this is quite ridiculous, it' gives a loss of identity to crews. From a wannabe perspective, I know of many who can't wait for the day they don their uniform for the first time.

Point taken John DP. Oh for a life in an immersion suit :) (actually i'm really jealous)

Red helicopter operator ie Bond I believe.

Red heli on wet lease. The Danes are building a large windmill farm a few miles out from Esbjerg. 80 windmills in all and a transformer (with helideck) The red bo105 should be going home in a few weeks when the Danish company get their own shinny new helicopter.

Simfly

You want to wear a uniform... Join the Military:rolleyes:

So the first weekday of the Scotia West Apron operation and I think today has certainly been interesting from our point of view - just wondering if any crews have comments about the system.

Hello No.1

Not getting to "play" til wednesday so you will have it all sorted by then I trust!

To Scotia crews..... A couple of things to think about.

Not very many of the current 121.7/118.1 guys and gals have much experience of heli ops from round the tower and even fewer have experience of BUSY ops from there.... so bear with us!

As one of the boring old farts who remembers BA helis, a request:

If you are ready, willing and able to accept a landing on 16 threshold, vacate through Foxtr... sorry, - Whisky 5 PLEASE say so as soon as possible on 118.1 (ie:first contact) it will assist greatly with planning.

DD

First encounter with the west side on Monday. Ramp are still up to there old tricks of parking us as far away from Ops as possible so we have to cart our gear a long way after coming in from a week offshore. Hope that they find a way of securing our car park so that we are not swamped by non Scotia personnel.
HF:confused:

The impending doom light is on for the car parks over at BHL as well. We have shiney new swipe-card barriers going in, just to keep the non-BHL people out. (These are loadsamoney each)

Sounds like deja-vu to me.

If you want some fun, try asking one of these riggies to 'shift it' and wait for his response. I find a fork lift usually does the trick every time.

From an engineering point of view, I believe it has been a NIGHTMARE!!

Management wanting EVERYTHING as usual. All the aircraft maintained, gearboxes changed, floors painted, shadow boards finished off etc etc....

When will they realise that people just aren't prepared to put in the graft that they used to? It has been constant give give give on the engineers part, and some people just don't have anymore to give.

I will get my chance to experience the Westside Scotia emporium on Monday, so I am looking forward to my giggle.





"Some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue!"

Any more news on these redundancies? Considering the impact that this would have on the job market I am surprised that there have been so few responses.

I am off to do the Canadian 'waterbirds' course in a couple of weeks and wondered if any of the guys on that side of the pond had top tips on what to do and see in and around Halifax. Apart from doing water landings and take offs in a Sea King I hope there will be a chance to sightsee and sample the local fare!!

Crab

See the Grand Banks fishing Schooner Blue Nose in the harbour.

There are loads of superb seafood restaurants round the harbour area, oh and quite a few good bars.

It was before the Swissair tragedy when I went there , but I reckon Peggy's Cove is one of the prettiest places on the eastern seaboard, its about 40mins drive south of Halifax.

If you get a chance of more of a jolly try to get north to PEI noting that a Griffon was filmed by the traffic cameras flying under the
Confederation Bridge a few yrs ago, talk about evidence in camera!

Have a good trip.

Wunper:)

The film crews I worked with there reckon that Halifax has the best consistent eating-out type good food in N America, which says a lot. The Lower Deck's good if you like Irish Music and crowds. If you can get down the coast to the Chester area and beyond, it's very pretty - Personally, I was more interested in the surrounding countryside than the city itself.

I thought they could have done more with the Titanic exhibit in the museum, though the museum itself is well worth a look, along the sea front.

Enjoy it!

Phil

You can't go wrong for beer or members of the opposite sex. Fantastic place, fantastic bars......Lower Deck excellent, other names are just a blur - something to do with Rogues Crow nest, Original Shoe shop, Myer's Apartments (younger totty, althopugh top floor is ideal for the gentleman with amnesia)
Enjoy!!
God knows what the flying is like, suppose Cougar Helicopters will tell you that.

Thanks chaps, it sounds like the Lower Deck is the place to go!

Instructed on the waterbird in mid 80's during an exchange with the Canucks.
Brilliant concept and good confidence booster, but watch out for the flying fish:D
A few years earlier, the S61 (CH124) had cartwheeled as it tried to take off. There was another pax on board standing up between the seats looking thru the windscreen at the time:eek:
No-one died!

Can't recommend anywhere downtown (Halifax)- because it must have changed beyond recognition. Also suspect Halifax is still as vibrant as ever. There used to be a three storey bar called Cheers -now that was something else.Those Canadians have got it just about right you know, the best of brit and yank worlds! Fantastic people.
Enjoy every minute of it.

Keep the tail rotor out of the water ;)

Crab,

I'm sure the guys and gals at 406 and 423 squadron will be more than happy to show the ropes in downtown Halifax. Peddlers pub on a Saturday afternoon is a must!

Enjoy! Cheers :eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

Ain't too bad on a sunday either! And the Cheers referred to is, of course, part of that famous Halifax hotspot, the aptly named LiquorDome.

I am at Shearwater at the moment and so far Halifax is living up to it's promise - beautiful weather, friendly people and good food and beer. The first flight is this afternoon and conditions are perfect, after that the most difficult decision is which of the multitude of restaurants to go to to spend the Queen's money. What a tough life!!!!

If this is part of your 'resettlement', pray, share the details........

PS An e-mail to 'verticalgirl66@<hidden> could prove worthwhile whilst in Halifax......or, 'celtictemptress@<hidden>' if you're in Shearwater for much longer.
Tell them 'Halifax27' says hi!

5 yrs on the Truckie fleet, what more can I say;-)

EESDL - no not resettlement but the Queen is still paying the bills and, since the prices in dollars are what they would be in pounds in UK, an exchange rate of 2.3 means HM's allowances go a long way in Canada.
The Lower Deck was OK but the Split Crow was better, absolutely heaving last night with a good band and cheap beer.
Whatever they may say, the music here is not 'Irish' - they have 'both kinds of music, country and western" in the bars and they play the occasional Irish/Scottish tune. I think it was best described by one of the 406 Sqn guys as 'East Coast fighting music'!!
We have timed our visit to coincide with the best weather they have had all summer and a buskers convention (loads of street performers) in Halifax...it's a tough job but someone has to do it!!

Landing a Sea King on the lake is top fun and worth the visit on it's own, our simulator may be good but it in no way enables you to develop a feel for how the aft cyclic is 'played' as you ski the aircraft onto the water without burying the nose.
The Canadian military is even more underfunded and undermanned than the UK (406 still fly Mk 1 Sea Kings and they are old and tired and not very serviceable) but the guys and girls we have met have been an absolutely superb bunch who will do anything (well nearly) to make a visitor welcome.

Just trying to find some info about this company in ABZ with regards to working conditions, salary's etc on the ground... any info via the forum or PM much appreciated!!!!

:D

lots of people wanting jobs.

not hiring at mo.

start on 30k.

if no istrument rating they will sponsor you (if they want you) but you must sign on for 3 years.

oddly, if you do have instrument rating, you dont start on anymore money - hmm, lets consider the finances!!! but you are more likely to be consider if jobs arise.

£21000 for instrument rating at Cabair.

consider getting fixed wing IR, then its only 10hrs to convert.

job - hmm, lots of lovely sea (if you can see it). samee trips day after day after day. BOOM, what was that? o yes, 3 seconds of heart-stopping, adrenhaline (sp?) pumping which is why the pilot is there in the first place - to cure the problem and save the lives on board, then back to routine.

Salary increases with experience. 3000hours and you can go abroad (they say) but there seems to be a acute shortage of people wanting to go to some strange places I'LL GO!!!! TAKE ME!! IM LOW TIME BUT DONT CARE!!!!! (just in case anyone is reading this from skotia!!!)

roughly 6 on, 6 off, 3 on, 6 off etc.

Captains ~ £60k

All in all, its flying proper machines for proper money.

Misterbonkers obviously thought you were a prospective pilot. As far as ground staff are concerned, they have had a pretty rough time over the last couple of years with staff being asked to re-apply for their own jobs and experienced ops staff being ousted. Lots of cost cutting going on. Who knows what will be next to be outsourced to an outside contractor.

As to pilots rosters being "roughly 6 on, 6 off, 3 on, 6 off etc" - TELL ME WHERE !!

misterbonkers, I think the current standard roster is along the lines of

8 on - 5 off - 6 on - 2 off

There are exceptions of course.

As for paying for the IR, yes when there is no one left on the market with an IR then they will pay for them, taking the most experienced pilots first. I've seen the database of prospective pilots and there are a lot on it with an IR already, plus all the type ratings you could want.

a few corrections to the above:

Roster: 4on - 2 off - 3on - 2off - 5on - 2 off - 5on - 5 off

Bonding period: 4 years

Instrument rating at Cabair: depending on your experience but if you need a full JAR IR - more like 30k

Woolf

According to an ITV news report (Thursday evening), CHC are laying off 15 pilots from their offshore operations, predominantly in Aberdeen. Stated reason was a downturn in the market, no doubt largly provoked by the loss of BP.

Can anyone shed more light ?

Anyone knows if BOND has a website ? Can someone give the URL ?

I don't think the layoff can be blamed on the loss of the BP contract, since it is stilll in CHC's hands until August 2004.

There will, I am afraid be lots more turmoil in the industry now, BP have bought in a lower rate provider who will have to pay lower rate wages with poorer conditions.

I think we will see some parallels with the EasyJet syndrome where there is basically a 2 tier system, the low cost low wage paying airlines and the high cost high paying airlines. Watch Bond re establish fully and start to take work frm CHC and Bristow, but more importantly, at lower rates which is bad for staff.

Alas, the oil industry seems to be trying to break the small gains in terms and conditions which were so hard won last year. It seems that the lot of the NS pilot will not improve much over the long term.

Brother:

You seem to have some insight into what Bond is offering to prospective pilots. Could you give us more details?

No insight I'm afraid but BP haven't just gone to Bond because they miss red helicopters. There has to be a price advantage and that has to be the result of lower costs.

While some costs can be wrung out of overhead by having a small infrastructure, but some will inevitably come from lower staff salaries.

There are quite enough pilots and other people out there who have come from Scotia or Bristow and would work for Bond at a lower salary than that paid by those 2 operators.

If the aircraft are the same, they use the same parts, fuel and oil, the facilities are the same, where is the difference going to come from to enable Bond to be cheaper?? Guess!

" There are quite enough pilots and other people out there who have come from Scotia or Bristow and would work for Bond at a lower salary than that paid by those 2 operators "

I can only speak for Bristow pilots and engineers, but I don't know anyone who would walk across to Bond for less money. OK, so morale isn't at an all time peak but I think its just more money that people want - The workplace, staff and environment at Bristow are fine.

If the 2 existing helicopter firms hang on to their staff, continue to offer better pay and hence attract any new recruits, where are Bond going to get their pilots from, other than a few loyal supporters from the old days ?

Isn't everyone assuming that Bond had a lower bid???

Anyone know for a fact that it is!!!

255 million sterling and aircraft of 60 million leaves a fair amount of change for 10 years operating costs.

;) :p ;)

Check the OLOG and CHC financials......maybe the Bond Boys will forego a new Rolls and merely drive Jag's ! Ever wonder where all the money goes from the operations out of Aberdeen? How much does the overhead cost....how much does the parent corporation draw from the operation to fund its headquarters, marketing, and other operations as compared to knocking off one big contract and using new aircraft without having the costs of maintaining old aircraft?

Market forces will act in wages....just like anything else....if the demand is there....the wages will rise. BALPHA just needs to make sure the Bond Boys have a unionized company to deal with as well and the wages will have to be similar to those at CHC/BHL.

Is it possible that BP/ oil companies in the NS are not happy with CHC.....services, reliability, fleet....etc...?

I am not suggesting this, but merely asking an innocent question.

When CHC "took over the world" there must have been some tension???

Please, educate those of us not working the NS.

D.K

Special 25

The key is "have come from", I did not mean to imply that current BHL or CHC staff would "jump ship", sorry for the misunderstanding.

But those who are about to be made redundant from CHC would surely accept a "reasonable" if slightly lower offer from Bond rather than be unemployed.

We will wait and see but I think that Bond will get a mix of "previously employed" and newer ex military guys to work for them. I do not think that they wil have any problems crewing their shiny new Pumas.

Brother

Talking of "shiny new Pumas", why are they going for L2s rather than 225s? Delivery time? Proven type versus new? Have they options to trade in the L2s for 225s later?

Have just heard a rumour that CHC Scotia have recently made most pilots over 55 years of age redundant. Is this true?

It was also rumoured that these redundant pilots were immediately asked to continue working for them on a contract basis. Not only this, but by doing so were offered a lot more money. This therefore negates this being a cost saving exercise.

If true, what is the supposed logic behind this?

If this was due to the fact that they were loosing their main North Sea contract due to the return of the Bond brothers, one could understand it; but that is not likely to be for another year. However, pilots from their Southern North Sea bases have also been made redundant and these bases and helicopter types are not affected by the return of the Bond brothers – unless you know different!

There certainly seems to be uncertain times ahead and will really show the resolve of management.

Can anyone confirm these rumours?

And please,
can anyone help me get in touch with Bond?:{

Unfortunately guys, its like this:

CHC Scotia and Bristow are both reducing pilot numbers due to a down turn in North Sea work generally. Bristow has just got rid of all of its contractors (who were employees in a previous life) and Scotia is making staff positions into contract where possible.

The amount of money being offered may be incrementally more if measured on a day rate basis but overall, having contract pilots will save CHC Scotia money.

Remember, with annual leave, sick leave, pension (kind of) loss of license etc etc it cost the average employer around 30-35% more than appears a the gross figure on the pay slip.

Furthermore, once CHC Scotia have made pilots redundant as employees and brought them back as contractors, they are totally flexible to pick up and put down whenever they want, for example, when the Bond bothers start their BP operations.

It would appear that the recent wage increases awarded to senior pilots have resulted in jobs being lost and turned into contract positions. That's what happens when BALPA negotiates wage increases that are too big for management to swallow. (statement of fact not necessarily expressed as an opinion)

The North Sea pilots wanted pay parity with their Boeing 737 counterparts, unfortunately, it will be more an Easy Jet pay slip than a BA one for the fortunate or unfortunate few who are left.

This is just the start at CHC Scotia.

Within the next month or three will be the ‘rationalisation exercises’.

Pleased I’m not Training Staff, Management/Chief Pilot, nor Engineering Management/Chief Engineer - particularly down south.

Watch those spaces.

Is it legal for employers to make people redundant then take them back on ?

The idea of saying "The post you are currently filling is no longer required, we have no other posts for you to fill therefore you're out" (the definition, as I understood it, of 'redundant') and then saying "Oooh, we need pilots, we'll take this recently-made-redundant person on" would appear to be a complete nonsense and the sort of thing that employment law was set up to prevent.

AVAD

I do not know about ‘a month or three’ for the rationalisation to kick in - it has already started with the first casualty.

Problemchild is quite right; Scotia can well afford to pay the going rate. Have a look at CHC's quarterly returns; they've posted record profits every quarter for the past two years, (most of it from their North Sea interests).
CHC are 'share price led' and will always try to cut costs to keep the share price and the dividend paid to investors as high as possible. Also, don't forget that CHC have massive borrowing debts which also have to be repaid.
I agree, there is also an element of spite involved in all this, the new Scotia MD is well known for his dislike of pilots. On the other hand, the pilots, and some oil companies, are also well known for their lack of respect for him, so it's a mutual thing.
As for the pilot redundancies, most of those who have gone are past the 55yr retirement age, they were still working under an agreement that put them first in the firing line should redundancies become an issue. I'm not going to go into the finer details of that one as it would take far too long and anyway, I can't be bothered, so don't ask.
I will be more interested to see just what happens next year when Scotia loose(?) all their BP work to Bond, but then, a year in the North Sea is a very long time, will BP still have any interests left in the area by then? Only BP know the answer to that one, the saga continues.

Fly safely,
Chopperman.

Pay for N Sea pilots should not be compared to fixed wing pilots' pay. We work for the oil industry as contractors. We sell our services via Scotia or Bristows. We are a skilled bunch of workers who have taken a long apprenticeship to reach a position of N Sea commander able to fly in a very weather demanding environment.

There is a pay pecking order in the N Sea which is usually based on the skill you have and how long it has taken you to gain that skill, along with the supply of people with the same skill. It would surprise you to see that a N Sea mid experience commander falls in the bottom half of this pecking order. We are below anybody who has a graduate qualification or a manual skill such as crane driver. The people I work with are amazed that we are as poorly paid as we are. They see our capabilities on a day to day basis and can assess us compared to other skills on the platform.

It is not unknown for specialist contractors to be paid £1500-2000 per day spent offshore. I personally have flown these people ashore on a special flight because they are too expensive to keep on board waiting for a normal beach flight.

The helicopter companies want to keep pilot's salaries low because their other expenses are so high. Contract pilots will always be on the payroll because they are cheaper than company pilots and can be shed easily. Experienced contractor are, however, becoming harder to find as those leaving the N Sea are not willing to come back and be treated in that way so things may change.

HF:rolleyes:

Just for those who think that Scotia can't afford to pay a decent salary feast your eyes on this from the Press and Journal,



[QUOTE]

RESULTS SHOW HUGE EARNINGS LIFT AT ABERDEEN HELICOPTER OPERATOR

IAN FORSYTH

09:00 - 07 June 2003

Energy editor HELICOPTER operator CHC Scotia, which is losing its lucrative contract with BP in Aberdeen to provide services for the North Sea, made pre-tax profits of more than £12million in the year to the end of April, 2002.

Figures released yesterday by Companies House showed that this figure was well ahead of the £6.2million made in the 10 months to April 30, 2001.

Turnover at the Aberdeen-based firm also surged from £92.2million in the 10-month period to £119.6million in the year to April, 2002.

A spokesman for CHC Scotia said yesterday the financial results were a consequence of post-merger cost savings, improved contract terms and internal cost savings.

The financial report also showed that directors' salaries for the latest year totalled £622,000, compared to £279,000 for the 10-month period. The highest-paid director - who has not been named - received £194,000, a huge increase on the £85,000 paid for the previous 10 months.

It also revealed the company had a net pension liability of more than £7million.

In December, it was revealed that CHC Scotia had lost the BP work.

Its existing contract will continue to run until August, 2004, but the business will then be taken over by Bond Offshore Helicopters.

The new 10-year contract is estimated to be worth more than £260million.

It is understood to be the largest of its kind worldwide in the offshore energy industry.

The news left a question mark hanging over the future of jobs at CHC Scotia as the BP contract accounted for about 40 of its North Sea business out of Aberdeen.

CHC Scotia said it would be able to redeploy its heavy helicopters, which could offer opportunities for staff elsewhere in the UK or overseas.

More than 700 people are employed by CHC Scotia, the majority of them in Aberdeen.

However, there has already been a recent round of redundancies at the group.

[QUOTE]

I realise that Scotia are going to loose the BP contract next year, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the contracts are paying the money. As I said in an earlier post, CHC have reported record profits every quarter for the past few years, most of it coming from the North Sea. Going back to the BP contract, CHC may have lost this one, but others have been renewed at higher rates than were previously paid.
Nuf said, time for bed, well, after another can of beer,

G'nite all, fly safe,
Chopperman.

Robbo Jock in his post asked the following questions:

Is it legal for employers to make people redundant then take them back on ?

The idea of saying "The post you are currently filling is no longer required, we have no other posts for you to fill therefore you're out" (the definition, as I understood it, of 'redundant') and then saying "Oooh, we need pilots, we'll take this recently-made-redundant person on" would appear to be a complete nonsense and the sort of thing that employment law was set up to prevent.

No one has answered these points on employment law. Surely there must be someone with some experience or knowledge of the legality of this aspect. What are they? Surely the union reps for Scotia must have looked at this.

Maybe it is worth re-posting Robbos question on the Rumours and News section of PPrune, as the fixed wing guys seem to have a lot more knowledge and experience of employment law aspects.