Home Of The Few For Sale

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Folks,

From November's Aviation News!

The first shots have been fired in the battle to save Bentley Priory following the revelation that the Ministry of Defence is considering selling the former HQ of RAF Fighter Command at the time of the Battle of Britain. No firm decision is expected until summer next year, but Defence Estates is looking at possible bids for the 18th Century mansion in Stanmore, Middlesex. Currently, the location of the Air Historical Branch, Bentley Priory is now deemed surplus to requirements. The news of the possible sale prompted a quick response from Air Cdre Peter Brothers, Chairman of the Battle of Britain Fighter Association who said, 'This is our home, as the Victory is for the Navy. It needs constant emphasis that, although Nelson saved the country, Dowding saved the World'. Another member of the Association summed up the situation - 'The Few saved it for the nation - let the nation save it for the Few'.

Now, I don't have a difficulty with selling off surplus and redundant equipment but this is, as it states clearly above, a definite doubling of standards. Nelson's flagship, IIRC, serves in the RN today as the flagship of 2SL, and quite right that it should! It would, however, be an absolute travesty if Bentley Priory were to be lost to the nation as a heritage site and, whilst it might be too expensive for MOD to maintain, it is surely within the power of the people to voice their concern here and elsewhere to ensure that the Home of The Few is preserved for future generations to remind them of the struggle against Nazism in 1940 that made this place a free country today!

Well, as free as it can be under these bloody control freeks that we have at present!

Voice it here and voice it loud! Hands off Bentley Priory!

Bloggs

[oik]

I totally agree.

However, I suspect that cash will turn out to be more important than history, pride and remembrance. It usually does these days.

[LuckyBreak]

Maybe the RAF Club could take it on as an annex? It's still convenient enough for pleasure visits to London and will save at least £30 on parking at Mayfair......;)

[Hanse Cronje]

Probably have better service to!

[Aeronut]

Better spelling too !

[green brain]

Recently visited Bentley Priory for the first time, can't believe the MOD top brass could even consider selling off such a fantastic place. Admittedly, it must be a pricey place to maintain and it must be worth a fortune but it'll probably end up as another posh apartment development, full of Russian oil barons and Middle Eastern millionaires, inaccessible to most. What a disgraceful waste of a fundamental part of our heritage...
At a time when the RAF is attempting to promote Ethos and an understanding of what we've achieved in the past why are we considering selling off this gem of a station?

[Bismark]

Bloggs,

Of course 2SL's Victory is the equivalent of your BBMF (and is probably cheaper to run). Why not PFI the BBMF to fund retention of BP, or even the Reds? And while I think of it what does it cost to maintain the QCS?

[Clockwork Mouse]

Speak English, you fool!!!

[Bismark]

BBMF = Battle of Britain Memorial Flight
PFI = Private Finance Initiative
BP = Bentley Priory
Reds = RAF Aerobatic Team
QCS = Queens Colour Squadron

Which one contributes to operational capability?

[Ray Dahvectac]

Which one contributes to operational capability?

In the same way that HMS Victory does? :rolleyes:

[short&shapeless]

So is it the MODs to sell :confused:

I seem to recall this cropping up before and hearing that the Rothchilds (or similar) granted use of the land but retained first 'dibs' on it if the MOD no longer wanted it.

Plus there was also something about 'having to return it to its original state'.

IIRC this was not the only unit under that umbrella.

Could be wrong of course as it is a long time since I leapt over the fence :D

[waivar]

Nelson would have given his right arm to be aircrew :cool:

[SirToppamHat]

S&S

I am pretty sure that was the case with regards to the Halton House Officers' Mess, but not sure about BP.

I visited BP a few months ago and, whilst I enjoyed the general ambiance of the place (drinks on the verranda on warm Summer evening, the whole history thing etc), behind the facade it was pretty run-down (much like Halton in fact).

I guess it's always difficult when you're in an organisation whose masters seem to be intent on making it bankrupt, to find money for things like BP, Halton, Bawdsey Manor, Medmenham and many other fine messes past and present. Even trying to develop them for your own use becomes prohibitively expensive once groups like English Heritage get involved and start dictating specifications (ask anyone at Scampton!).

Looking outside the value of the specific buildings (monetry or historical), the original requirement for the sites to be returned to their previous states may be less important than in the past. If we (or Defence Estates I suppose?) hand back a site returned to green field, I would think the chances of getting planning permission would be far reduced than if there was still evidence of previous occupation (making it a brown-field site).

It's a while since I went to Halton; I would think that the Old Hospital and NOM (dump!) are prime sites for development, especially with house prices the way they are in that part of the World.

Sad, but true.

STH

[Krystal n chips]

Always wondered how / why Halton has survived over the years and why large chunks of it have not been sold off ---it's a developers dream after all in that part of the world---so would I assume the clause re. "returning the site to the original" etc is applicable to the Station as a whole and not exclusive to Halton House?.

[Phoney Tony]

The answer is clear.

Sell it along with everything else that gives us a sense of being part of the winning team.

Change all our blue uniform for greens and then we can blame the army when we lose the next war.

The few are become fewer and fewer.

We are being messed around by people who a fiddling with stupid management tools, issuing glossy magazines and floundering around and not taking the real steps required to keep the Royal Air Force an entity who can make a difference.

I'll get my coat.

[ORAC]

Plus there was also something about 'having to return it to its original state.

So we should turn it back into a brothel then? :E

(In 1882 the Priory was converted it into a hotel, but was was not a success and, in 1908, it became a girl's school. In 1922 the school closed and the property stood empty. Rumour has it that, until bought by the RAF for £25,000 in 1926, the Priory was discretely used as a high class brothel - or so rumour had it......)

[Tartan Giant]

I agree with you BLOGGS,Voice it here and voice it loud! Hands off Bentley Priory!

That the small minded bastards that run this country even think of selling OUR piece of history deserves them to be hung as traitors (oh! we don't hang thieves any more - pity).

So BP is expensive to run - so what!
They can screw up things like the Dome/FMD 2001/Health Education/Immigration and endless more New Labour cock-ups but cannot supress the idea of selling a national treasure.

'The Few saved it for the nation - let the nation save it for the Few'.

That's it in a nutshell.

Tally-Ho

TG

[BATS]

Bentley Priory is indeed owned by MOD and was purchased by the then Air Ministry in 1926. Formerly the home of Lady Emma Hamilton ("special friend" of Lord Nelson) and Queen (?) Adelaide, it has equal historical value to both the RAF and the RN. Most of the interior of the old building is in fact a (fake) reconstruction as the Mess burnt down during refurbishment in the late 70s/early 80s. It should be kept for it's historical value alone; however, if the RN can return Greenwich to it's owners, then the RAF can sell Bentley Priory (at a vast profit !). I hope I am wrong, but big money talks.........

[SirToppamHat]

But Bats

There may be a vast profit to be had, but I doubt very much whether the RAF will ever see any of it.

What Defence Estates do with it I don't know, but I would guess it just goes back into Brown's Coffers.

STH

[Proletarian]

Of course in an ideal world we would be able to hang on to Bentley Priory, but what real purpose would it serve? How many serving RAF personnel have ever visited the station just to see Sir Hugh Dowding’s old office? That’s all there really is and even then there’s really not much to see, because the Bunker was renovated many years ago and is now closed. As far as I am aware, members of the public have never had access to either the old office or the bunker.

The decision on how to rationalise the MOD London estate was driven mainly by the Army’s determination to hang on to as much of Woolwich as possible. The MOD was determined to leave just one RAF station within the M25 open, and Phoney Tony would never allow his private airfield at Northolt to close, so from an RAF perspective the decision on which station would remain open was a foregone conclusion.

Whatever the historical connections and however pleasant the Officers’ Mess at Bentley Priory is, unfortunately in the current climate that carries little weight. Given the choice, most people would rather not have to work within the M25, so moving organisations and departments out of the south-east and closing stations in this area does make sense.

Northolt aside, if we could keep another base within the M25, then in my opinion Uxbridge would be a far better choice than Bentley Priory. Uxbridge has far better transport links, it’s close to the A40 and M25 and only a short bus ride from Heathrow. The station infrastructure was extensively re-built in the 1990’s, including a new SHQ, new Officers’ Mess accommodation, a new Sgt’s Mess, new transit accommodation, outstanding sporting facilities and excellent new Officers’ Family Accommodation. In addition, the 11 Gp Bunker, from where the main element of the Battle of Britain was actually directed, has been saved and is now an outstanding museum that is visited by large numbers of service personnel and many members of the public.

Of course, wherever possible, we should retain all our links to the Battle of Britain. However, if we have to choose between the two, I think on balance retaining the 11 Gp Bunker at Uxbridge is far more important and significant than Sir Hugh Dowding’s old office in the Officers’ Mess at Bentley Priory.

Proletarian

[rafmannot51]

The whole thing is symptomatic of our lack of Service ethos. Some years ago a ember of the Air Force Board was at a Dinning In Night and was heard to say that the central store of silver from closed RAF Stations and Sqns was being melted down due to the cost of insurance. There was a stunned silence. The people who had donated the various silver items (often families of deceased aircrew) to either Sqns or RAF Stations did so, I am sure, in the belief that they would become a part of our Service history. We have little enough as it is - indeed the RN and Army would still like to see our demise! Now Bentley Priory is yet another possible low point in the planning by our Senior Management, for whom money is more important than our sense of self and The Service Ethos. :mad: :*

[Data-Lynx]

Northolt aside, if we could keep another base within the M25, then in my opinion Uxbridge would be a far better choice than Bentley Priory. Proletarian. Rumour suggests that those family jewels are already on their way to US Forces, who do want a base inside the M25. Meanwhile, the best way to save Bentley Priory is to find a reasonable use for it. The Navy had grand plans to dispense with Dryad but that has become the home for joint police persons. The military has no effective experience of making buidlings pay for themselves so the trick has to be to reduce the costs to an acceptable level. The Priory has been in recent, if irregular, use by Northwood for conferences and seminars. Maybe there is an option here as a much more comfortable allternative to MOD meetings?

[Clockwork Mouse]

I've visited BP and it is a wonderful site. I sympathise with the irritation you boys in blue feel, but whatever its role in our glorious history, in the end it's just a building.

My proud regiment, my second family, dissappeared forever after 300 year, as did many others. I wore 5 different cap badges during my service career and in the end gave up changeing the buttons on my uniform. No-one noticed.

But don't let the bastards flog the silver. That belongs to you, not Brown.

[Bismark]

Despite my rather facetious comments on P1 I do sympathise with the RAF. No Service likes to see its history disappearing under the hammer. However, all will not be lost as the building is listed (Gr 1?). One just needs to go to the old Joint Defence College at Latimer to see how well these places can be reserved. Price Waterhouse Coopers now run Latimer as a conference centre and the main building is beautifully preserved. At Dryad the Wall Map Room in the Wardroom is preserved as a nationeal treasure. The Paineted Hall at Greenwich remains as it was and is still used for major Naval banquets. With BP I am sure the history of the place will not be erased, indeed it will prove an obvious attraction for the new owner.

Do not despair!

[WorkingHard]

Why not form a limited company with the intention of buying BP where all serving officers and airmen subscibe for shares according to rank? That way it can be bought and preserved by those to whom it then belongs. Any pensioners or those on the retired list could be offered the same opportunity with the same conditions attached. With such feelings clearly showing about the preservation of heritage it should raise the few £millions necessary for purchase and maintenance within a few hours of formation.

[Climebear]

Bismark

Which one contributes to operational capability?

Well as QCS is a numbered RAF Regt field sqn that is capable of deploying as a FU and whose personnel augment other FUs, I guess you can say that it does.

As for BBMF - surely you can equate that to the FAA historic flight. I wouldn't want to see that go either.

As for the wider discussion. The trap you have falling into is one that budget people love. That is knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. If it can't be measured on a balance sheet it isn't worth anything.

This approach may work for the physical componennt of fighting power; but it is inadequate for the moral component of fighting power. Such items engender and esprit de corps within each Service and help portray the Armed Forces in a postive light to the population. Or is the motivation of our servicemen knowing they belong to a Service that is proud of its heritage (albeit that the RAF has less of it that the other 2 Services - though more that a large proportion of the Army - wait out) and that has the support of its homeland (the latter becoming very creaky indeed).

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Why not preserve it as a muesuem - dedicated to the few and other WW2 RAF personnel?

[Widger]

As I understand it; and I am ready to be corrected; each Service is allowed ONE "novelty" to be paid out of by the Public Purse. For the RN that is HMS Victory, the RAF is the Red Arrows or is it the BBMF and the Army is... I can't remember some Horse Artillery or something. Everything else must be funded from the non-public purse. That is why such fine elements as the Field Gun have gone down the pan and so will buildings such as BP. The RN Historic Flight is not funded by the taxpayer.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Have recently been on a DASC cse, including a full tour of the BPOM.
This place IS the home of the Battle of Britain. We must not allow this to be heartleslessly developed into the next soul-less block of flats.
Luckily, out of the several 'interested parties', one of them has the preservation of BPOM in its entirety as its aim. Apparently the English Heritage are also involved and backing the bid (with considerable clout).

Failing that, the price tag is said to be ~£27M, how much is that each for all PPRuners? :D
Let's get on it :ok:

Uncle G

[Bismark]

Climbear,

The FAA love the Historic Flight(3 a/c?) but it is not funded by the RN (except a teeny bit). My understanding is that the BBMF (12 a/c incl a Dakota?) costs about £12M to run.

The QCS does not contribute to OC. What is it actually for? The RN does not have an equivalent and I do not believe the Army do either.

[Climebear]

Bismark

If QVS (63 Sqn RAF Regt) does not have an operational role - why have its flights deloyed on TELIC

The Squadron... ...remains unique as a dual role squadron undertaking both ceremonial and field squadron commitments. (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafregiment/63_sqn_hist.html)

As for the Army not having an equivelant:

What about the 2 Inf Bns, Household Cavalry Mounted Regt and Kings Troop, RHA on ceremonial duties. Whereas the Inf Bns rotate through the duties as formed units, personnel are trickle posted in and out of the Mounted Regt and Kings Troop in the same way as personnel are posted into and out of 63 Sqn RAF Regt (QCS).

[Bismark]

The Army units you mention have state ceremonial responsibilities stretching back generations. I am not aware that the QCS has any such required role. It is this aspect of QCS where money could be saved as I am sure their combat role is fully justified and done very well.

[bwallis]

My vote is to sell part of the extensive gardens for housing development; surely that will offset the running costs so we can retain one of the most significant buildings of WW2.
BP trivia: during a routine valuation the mess grand piano was found to previously belong to Noel Coward and apparently worth an absolute fortune, so next dins be v careful !!!

[Climebear]

Bismark

The RAF has had a cermonial drill unit at RAF Uxbridge since the 1920s. The Kings Troop became a formed unit in 1947 - previously the duty was undertaken by a variety of Horse Artillery units. I can't see the argument that if you do something for long enough it becomes more justified!

As for saving the additional costs - what would those be. Tailoring costs, extra polish and the odd bit of T&S - this is pennies.

[Training Risky]

I would like to see Bliar open up Chequers to the general public when he is not there....

Chances of that happening?:mad: :rolleyes:

[ORAC]

There´s your answer, let the government take it over accommodation for grace and favour apartments. maybe Two Jags could move in........ :hmm:

[LuckyBreak]

Has anyone ever experienced a better shower (on your own) than the 1960s ones in the BP annex? Not so much a shower as a waterfall of hot water! Surely that's reason enough to keep it....

[WorkingHard]

No one offering their own money so far then.

[Maple 01]

Well I can run to a tenner if that helps WH

[Climebear]

WorkingHard

I handed a load of money over the BP bar last Friday night (great families' happy hour guys) - will that help?

[WorkingHard]

Actually, I was being quite serious in my earlier post. I thought it would be a super opportunity for everyone who has, or had, any connection with the Royal Air Force and also to add to one's pensionable income. It does seem that BP can be preserved with everyone else's money!. I trust I am wrong. The source for subscription must run to at least 100,000 personnel so the individual sums need not be large. What am I missing please?

[Unmissable]

I hate to see the demise of such a glorious building. It brings back so many memories for me.

Not least the time I sha*ged a fantastically good looking FC (Yes there was at least one of them) in the cow sheds or stables (or whatever they called the cheap and inadequate annex)

......And some fantastic summer balls.

OOOOh


AAAAAAh


Spurrrt,.......Oh Bugger........memories and wet dreams are all I can go on these days.

[Washington_Irving]

*Facetious Comment Alert*

Savings have to be made. How else are we to subsidise Chairman Tony's holidays courtesy of 32 Sqn?

QCS- A vital asset to Britains force posture and reputation overseas. They clearly lead the world in their ability to stag-on anytime, anyplace, anywhere. (Unless it's at the Palace where, as video evidence has shown, they have a bit of a problem remaining vertical.)

[GeeRam]

Local paper has a story that Bernie Eccelstone and Max Mosley of the FIA have put a bid in for Bentley Priory to turn it into a new corporate HQ for Formula 1......:uhoh:

That's a bit ironic considering who Max Mosley's father was......:hmm:

[A2QFI]

Picking up on an earlier comment, where is all the old Squadrons' silver? There must be tons of it when you think how many squadrons there were and they must all have had some items. I thought it was all stored at Quedgley (spelling?) I think we should be told, how much there is and where it is. It can't burn and if it is stored in a bunker somewhere theft shouldn't be a problem so I don't think the cost of insurance comes into it.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Two points spring to mind on reading this thread...

Firstly, His Toneship has proclaimed on many an occasion that we are the fourth biggest economy in the world so a few hundred k a year in maintenance for Bentley Priory shouldn't be a problem and secondly isn't this just the latest Whitehall response to Gordon's request to sell off everything to put a nice rosy gloss on the books..?

I once did some work at the Air Historical Branch (I did the sqn F540) and in the major store room was a highly secure room-within-a-room.
The Air Commodore gave me the keys and said that I should take a look around over lunchtime... It was full of gifts that had been presented to various wheels over the years - gold jewel-encrusted swords, gambias, boxes, trays etc etc. The highlight for me was Hitller's 50th birthday present from his generals in '39.. that someone had liberated after the war. A typically Germanic-looking oak box about 2ft square and 6" deep for wall mounting which opened up to reveal a map of Deutschland drawn on leather with all the activities/industries etc represented graphically and marked out in that gothic script...
Inside the leather-lined doors was the inscription in German - something to the effect of "Happy Birthday Nobby - jobs a good 'un!"
Should have been on display somewhere.
Must be worth a fortune..

[black_maskers]

I think you might find that the QCS Queens Colour Squadron is an operational RAF REGIMENT SQN, Yes It does ceremonial duties for six months of the year but but then takes it place in the orbat for operational deployments along with the other Regt Sqns.
therefore I think it earns it keep. and is probably cheaper to run than a tonka's weekly fuel bill.

However , Yes we need to keep our Heritage from the penny pinching civil servants who are only after a quick cash fix.

[Time Flies]

Going back to what workinghard said.

The financial contributions of many would not need to be all that great, to save this most important part of the RAF's history.

I see no reason why the financial shortfall can't me met in part/full by those who wish to see it stay in the MOD's hands.

I also believe it would be a good idea for Bentley Priory to eventually be self-sustaining. This could be in the form of a Museum, Part-Mess-Part-Hotel or some equally lucrative scheme.

No doubt it will slip into Brown's hands and become "The Bentley Priory"...a drug rehabilitation centre for owners of Continental GT's! :hmm:

TF

[Kolibear]

I can't help feeling that Bentley Priory is the ideal setting for a BoB museum.

Think of all the other historic sites that tell there own story - HMS Victory, Cabinet War Rooms, Bletchley Park, Historical Dock Yards at Chatham. Now there is a chance to tell the story of the BoB from the place where it was controlled from.

The RAF Museum is just down the road at Hendon, but Hendons history had been bulldozed. The RAF doesn't have a historic site open to the public and I'm deliberately not including Duxford as thats IWM.

By the way, is there anyway a civvie can visit Bentley Priory, any chance of a Pprune visit?

[breakscrew]

Kolibear,
Yes,you can visit the Officers Mess. All you do is write to the Station Commander (who is a really top bloke) and he will arrange for you to be included in the next formal Officers Mess tour. It is a wonderful hour and a quarter visit which includes the history of the house/Priory and of course, Dowdings Office. They have civilian tours every couple of months (or they used to last year).
Good Luck.
BS

[RayDarr]

I spent a very happy 4 years at BP, working on the 11 Gp staff in the 80's, and all that has been said about the mess is true. However, do remember, the original mess was almost destroyed by fire around 1980, and what we have now is a cunning reconstruction. The marble columns are hollow, and try tapping the walls... plasterboard!!. Lucky for us, all the mirrors, fire surrounds, doors and so on had been removed during the renovation, so all of this is origional, but Dowdings office is a film set, in as much as it looks the part, but isn't quite true. Never the less, the atmosphere is there, and perhaps thats all that is necessary.
I remember being Duty Staff Officer in the mid 80's on the night that the B of B Fighter Pilots Association had their annual reunion there. I was hauled up from the lower bar to join them (didn't take much arm twisting) by a bunch of old boys exploring the mess. Once upstairs, I found a heap 21 year old fighter pilots in 70 year old skins rushing around and having fun. What a great night that was. The best part being when the Spit/Hurri from BBMF did a flypast and short display. All the old boys went out on the balcony to watch, and there was hardly a dry eye between them. Sic gloria....
Yes, we must keep this building with all the history attached to it.

As a discussion point, not wishing to detract at all from the great victory these fighter boys won for us all, but what if anything do we do to remember the sacrifice of Bomber Command, where the numbers equivilant to the total loss in the B of B were routine every night during the 1943 Battle of Berlin?

[groundsquirrel]

Just been catching up with the BP details after a Google.
Worked down the hole 1971-72 and 1975 - 80 looking after the Telecomms for the site. Pleasant memories, especially the Ladies of Stanmore Park/BP ;)

I remember, before the fire, of having a wander around and looking at the Office,. Seems I was lucky in having see the Priory as it was before the restoration. I also remember seeing the Priory burn...

I would love to be able to take the Family to the site, especially the "bunker", so here's hoping it will be open for viewing one day.

regards, KOS