London sucks. Ken Livingstone is killing the city.

This was a quote on antoher thread. It came from a Brit living abroad and not in London. No problem, he's entitled to his view.
But I get a vote.

Anyway, for readers not in the know, Red Ken, as he's known, is the Mayor of London and is -- to say the least -- a controversial figure. For example, he's introduced congestion charging for central London which has got the motorists jumping up and down, but most commuters (me included) delighted with the reduced traffic on the roads.

There's loads of other examples of how he winds people up.

So, for those abroad, have you heard of him? For those in Blighty, what do you reckon of him?

If you reply to this, it would be fair to say whether or not you live in London.

Binos has an obligation to reply since he told me to start this thread!

PS I like him, have voted twice for him and will do so again.

I'm distantly familiar with him. His name comes up for me when he embraces people for whom I have a natural disdain.

Great thing about democracy is that you get to live with the consequences, good or bad, of putting your collectively chosen politicians in power. Sounds like his traffic program meets your needs and your vote has made your life better. Goodonya.

I'm glad you like me, angels, but I'm a bit bemused by the fact that you've voted for me twice. Never mind, I'll take that as a confirmed vote should I ever stand for anything. :hmm: Sorry. :}

I'm maintaining a respectable distance from this one, since I'm not qualified to comment, but I'd love to hear Londoners' opinions.

Oops, I could have phrased that a bit better Binos!

Livingstone is an immature grandstanding populist who was elected almost entirely because of his cheeky-chappie image and the fact that he has been on the telly a lot.

A bit of a card, our Ken - until you look at what he does and what he supports. He gave comfort to the IRA and practically any wandering 'freedom fighters'. He has some very suspect friends, but no Israeli or American ones.

I have met him, and he is engaging and good company. But I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

Is he the one that introduced the congestion charge as a way of paying for improvements to the public transport system?

Well we've got the congestion charge but public transport into and around London is diabolical and shows no signs of improvement/improving, so can we have our money back? :confused:

Fourth
Hijacking of threads is a pain. Moderators must police this as vigorously as is possible.
Individual PPRuNers have the right to pursue a thread subject without it being hijacked to some other agenda.

Lets get back to Red Ken please. ;)

Ken Livingstone.

Invites terrorists to receptions in London
Pays for St Patricks day celebrations, but not St George's Day
Introduced the Congestion Charge against the majority feeling
Increased the charge despite saying that he wouldn't
Increased the Congestion Charge zone against majority wishes
Increased Tube and Bus fares unless you have an oyster card
Made offensive comments to a Jewish reporter
Was elected by a minority of Londoners
Holds a position that only a minority of Londoners wanted established

I think my feelings are clear

>Hijacking of threads is a pain. Moderators must police this as vigorously as is possible.
>Individual PPRuNers have the right to pursue a thread subject without it being hijacked to some other agenda.
>Lets get back to Red Ken please.

**********************************
Point taken.
Agreed it had sort of strayed . . .

Angel,

In London. He's actually done things. Busses. Congestion charging. Cultural events.

The guy probably has flaws, says things pretty straight, gets smeared occaisionally in the press.

But I fail to see what wrong he's done and do see a lot of good. And yes, he's slightly left of centre. I suspect many with an issue against him and an ideological axe to grind.

Show me another politican who will achieve better results while look after the average pleb at the same time, and I'll vote for him.

Dave

Flyingsquirrel, and what exactly has he done to you to earn that contempt?

PM me if you have to, but I am genuinely intrigued.

Re. his superb introduction of the very successful congestion charge..............

In the preceding months to the charges introduction all traffic lights at major junctions were rephased to give priority to traffic from the minor roads thus creating longer delays on the major routes. Immediately after the introduction of the congestion charge the lights were changed back to their original settings and the traffic miraculously started flowing again.

Red Ken and his cronies started brandishing statistics for traffic flows in London showing that since the introduction of the charge average journey times fell when compared to the figures for the preceding 6 months and thus the charge is a resounding success.
However, if one compares the figures to those of a year or more before the charges introduction one will see no alteration at all.

As Sir Humphrey Appleby once said, 'You can prove anything with statistics'!

I think you might be quoting me angels. Yep, I loathe Red Ken. Did you realise that the increase in the congestion charge was to pay for the cost of running it? Not to reduce traffic, but to pay for enforcing it. He couldn't run a fecking business if his life depended on it.

He's got great TV presence but he is an arsehole.

Oh and one other thing. He fully intends to use Compulsory Purchase Orders to obtain land to use for the Olympics when required. Hope your abode is not in his way...

OzzyBinos has an obligation to reply since he told me to start this thread! Why can't Binos start his own threads anyway????

Anyone who annoys people as much as our Ken can`t be all that bad.....I don`t go for his politics though, ever since he rejoined the Labour party, I`ve thought him a bit opportunist.

Dear Dave,
with regards to your submission

"In London. He's actually done things. Busses. Congestion charging. Cultural events.
The guy probably has flaws, says things pretty straight, gets smeared occaisionally in the press.
But I fail to see what wrong he's done and do see a lot of good. And yes, he's slightly left of centre. I suspect many with an issue against him and an ideological axe to grind.
Show me another politican who will achieve better results while look after the average pleb at the same time, and I'll vote for him.
Dave"

In London what Ken has done is spend money on not one, but two referendums on congestion charging. The second was because he didn't like the results of the first which overwhelmingly opposed it. The second because he was obliged by law to do so though he has already stated he feels not bound by what the results come in. Result, a massive waste of taxpayers money and a demonstration of just how undemocratic he really is.

He in fact has massive flaws which resulted in his first removal from office by Thatcher. Slightly left of centre??? you must be bloody kidding mate, the b*stard is deep crimson and slightly to the left of Stalin. Occasionaly smeared ??? you mean his more unpleasant outbursts regularly reported on. Latest one by the BBC on his efforts to get his greedy tentacles on controlling finances from multiple other organisations he has little to do with

Show you another pol who will achieve better results, take your bloody pick and you will almost certainly find one without trying too hard who will look after the average pleb as you put it who are all getting hammered on the increased charges on public transport which have outstripped inflation the rise in taxation and almost every other precentage rise of any gouging unpleasant method the government has for prising money out of the taxpayer. Local transportation which certainly does not seem to be getting that much better for all the money he says is being put into it. Try listening to the morning catalogue of woe on public transport today?

Of course besides that he is just another 'cheekie chappie' doing his bit for London and the 'plebs' was it Dave.

Like Jeffrey Archer Paterbrat?!

I love the way the ROCPUF's get themselves all in a lather over guys like Livingstone...:p

they of course think it perectly fine to sell chemical weapons and other WMD's and indeed funding to a whole range of dictators which contribute to an orgy of misery and death for so many people....

But I guess, "Red Ken" is truly the enemy here...:}

TFS - Do you live in London? Ditto to Paterbrat.

There are plenty of people who slag Red Ken off from the comfort of leafy environs outside of here. Yet, they work here. They use toilets here, they travel here, they have heart attacks here. Through my rates I subsidise them.

One of the guys in the dealing room has a rant a day about Red Ken a la Paterbrat. This guy lives in Brighton. So get a fecking job there then and you won't have to worry about Red Ken.

Re his 'support' for the IRA. He said that there should be dialogue with IRA. Some 20 years later the British government came around to his point of view.

Oh no..... I find myself in total agreement with U_R :{

Angels, you don't have to live London to recognise a menace. If he has made your life as a Londoner a bit easier that doesn't give you the right to say it's your rates that subsidise him so no 'outsider' has the right to object to him. That's just plain selfish and totally insular - in fact it makes you sound like the man you are defending :hmm:

But if he's mayor of London, what business is it of people outside the City to hold him accountable??

Surely it's the business of Londoners who's affairs he manages to hold him to account?

OW22 - angel's question was "what do you reckon of him?". I'm not trying to hold him accountable, just expressing an opinion - as are most of his detractors on this thread. Leopards don't change their spots - he was a dangerous maverick when he ran the GLC and I'm amazed that Londoners voted him in again.

But if he's mayor of London, what business is it of people outside the City to hold him accountable

Because, unfortunatley, the t*sse*s in local government elsewhere in the country follow his lead. eg "Congestion" charging.

In a true democracy, the people get the leaders they deserve. Ergo, London's a true democracy.

Well, I don't live in London either. I live in Zurich. They don't have Red Kens here. Too posh.

The bloke in power in Switzerland (Blocher) is somewhat to the right of Mussolini's old gym teacher. Even Haider would distance himself from this one. If this bloke could speak English, which he can't, he'd have daily sound bites on CNN, and the USA would add Switzerland to their list of rogue states.

Still, at least the trains run on time, eh?

Not sure who runs the Zurich city, but I can imagine it's a very conservative chap, wearing small round glasses, who always behaves very correctly. Not an embarrassment to his party at all, unless one of his park cleaners fails to pick up an errant leaf within the time stipulated. And going by the regular on-street body searches that the rather scary police conduct on anyone of an (ahem) non-caucasian appearance, one imagines there's a policy in place to ensure nice Swiss people, wearing nice hats and coats, can continue to live their pure, mountain-bred lives. If I was (ahem) non-caucasian, I'd dress in velcro clothes to save a little time during my twice daily police searches.

Still, for all their efficiency, I have to warn you that Bellevuestrasse going past the AMAG Audi dealer is a bloody awful traffic bottleneck in the morning. Delays our drive in by at least five minutes, sometimes ten. Still, one has an X5 with a fcuking big engine and an automatic gearbox, so my left crotch doesn't develop clutch cramp. Did I say that right? One can peer down from on high into those few cars that aren't SUVs. Not many of them, I can tell you.

One imagines that their SUVs're being serviced, and the saloon or hatchback they're sat in is usually used as a tender for their proper car. You know, it serves to transfer the occupants between their 4x4 and the pavement without their falling into the gap in between. One shall look out and see if some of the bigger 4x4s have saloon cars hanging on davits off the back.

Loads of SUVs in Zurich, so dunno why Red Ken's got himself in a tiz about them. Looking forward to winter, 'cos I'll finally be able to drive up the snowy road to Axalp without my heart in my mouth. Anything coming the other way, and I'll drive right over the fcuker. Unless it's another SUV, in which case we'll be able to see each other from miles away.

Hmm, was teetering on the edge of a digression there, but I skilfully managed to swing the post back on track.

TW

As I live and work in London, and the work I do is London centric I'm going to wade in....

Ken has done huge amounts for himself... I mean London...in terms of getting a high profile for his administration, his accommodation, his buddies... I mean a proper democratically elected body for London, with great offices and a widely based meritocracy of un-elected advisors and assistants.

Just looking at certain parts of the GLA bureaurocracy...it is staffed with very young Dutch people who are shaping the future of London. These people may be brilliant at their jobs, but when they can only communicate with difficulty and have little or no grasp of the London's cultural and historical nature just how much validity does their judgement have..or transport experts from NYC...again a great resource but perhaps it like adivsing a 747 pilot when you are a A340 pilot, similar but different.

Added to this is his undemocratic edicts on the Congestion Charge; which despite public (read Voters) and insitutional opposition, from across the board businesses has been increased in cost and extent. Many businesses are in agreement that whilst the charge itself may not be directly detrimental to their business, the cost of administering it for fleet wide use has forced them to add staff merely to cope.. a pure overhead.

But he has generated a large number of private sector jobs which would not otherwise exist and helped a company set up, run and make profits on an unnecessary charge which could have been levied by other means. Do we think he is planning for the future perhaps?

Sadly the obvious is often a smoke screen for profits and the intelligent solution avoided as it has neither the funding potential or the public profile required to ensure attention seeking politicians make the news regularly...

London needed a Mayor.. it's larger than a certain country mentioned above, but had no representation. Sadly Ken, cheeky chappie that he is, in neither intelligent enough or talented enough to provide the service this city requires to make it thrive. He has pioneered the job and hopefully will permit a better candidate to make it their own in the near future.

Angels in answer to your question yes I do live in London. Worked for 27 years in Saudi and for 27 years had a flat and family in London. Pay my council tax which goes up as fast as the tube and bus fares if not faster. Your mate in the dealing room living in Brighton may not be effected by the tosser I am and I do worry about him unlike you who obviously think the sun shines.

I would agree with mfaff that Ken is out of his depth and is making a grab for yet more powers when the ones he has already are being misused.

Can't remember the details but the way he took over the GLC was little more than a coup.

A thoroughly undemocratic racist who will give solace to anyone who hates the same people he does.

If London does need a voice, though I don't see why, then surely he should be last on the list of people to represent our capital city.

Sadly as has been pointed out people get what they vote for. The fly in the ointment, other than himself, is that the majority who did vote for him probably don't really understand what he represents or is after, just liked the sound bites and pre election pap he spewed out in his 'cheekie chappy' style.

To them he was a plucky underdog who doesn't have a car. What they don't understand is he was the underdog to both Maggie and to the Labour party as well because he is a radical tosser with some rather strange ways of doing things. As for the car, he really does not need one being ferried around or taxied at Londoner's expense, not that he isn't short of a bob or three on his massive salary which they/he are/is presently trying to bring up to Ministerial level.

Jesus lads, give it a rest why don't you?

The people of London voted for the man whether you like it or not. (And you clearly don't)

Dismissing those voters as thick "because they don't understand what he's like" is the height of arrogance.

And what do you propose Spinflight? You're talking about an election, you suggest people like Ken should be banned from standing?

The voters spoke lads, f**k all you can do about it. That's democracy. I don't like the fact that GWB is POTUS but I have to accept it because he got elected fair and square.

Spot on, One World.:ok:

In a democracy you get what you deserve in your politicians. YOU VOTED THEM IN.

Oh right, I get it now.... I thought this thread allowed us to say what we thought about Ken Livingstone, especially those of us who live in London and therefore pay for his crazy ideas. now I discover, despite my posting a list that nobody has so far been able to refute, that because a minority of Londoners voted a man into a position that most Londoners didn't want.. we aren't allowed to comment...

Do I need to repost my list, or can you guys scroll back that far?

We ARE talking about the elected politician/representative of London who made disgusting anti-semitic comments aren't we?

Where the hell did anybody say there should be no debate on the matter?

I am addressing the above posts where one says basically that those Londoners who voted for him are somehow thick and "don't understand what he's really like." Which is classic " they don't agree with me so they must be wrong" thinking.

And the other which says " surely he should be last on the list of people to represent our capital city." as if he should not have been "allowed" or permitted to be on the ballot.

The system is there and Ken was elected.

Your own Royal Family has a fine history of anti-semitism Mr. Chips, are you going to have a pop at them as well?

One world - :mad: off will you ! You don't have to pay for the :mad: 's exploits do you ?

Hey FS!

Chill out man! I just like getting involved in political debates, all over the world I may add!

You should see the way I bug the Chinese about their government on some Chinese message boards! :p :p

I live near and use the Northern Line underground - it is broken, not working because the drivers are on strike today over safety issues. This must have fcuked up a few hundred thousand commuters Thursday. Lack of investment the main issue - where did the CC charge cash go again?

Can't stand the man's policies, did not vote for him and never will.

Mr Chip's list was pretty succinct IMHO.

Ignore OneWorld Mr Chips, he's just putting words into other posters mouths.

Yes this is the same Livingstone who is a well known anti-semite. The obvious point, well missed by the usual minority, being that any other form of racism would have instantly disqualified him from office.

The man really is a joke, only in these days of sound bite politics could he exist. I'm not saying he isn't a canny politician, there are afterall 10 times as many Muslims in Britain as there are Jews, however anyone loony enough to be thrown out of the Labour party for extremism really must be a loony!

I think my favourite story about Livingstone revolves around his support for Al Qaradawi who he descibed as a moderate! Now when an extraordinary amount of evidence was presented to him to show that said scumbag was indeed a complete scumbag Livingstone replied that the translations must have been done by a Jew.

Sorry, did someone speak?

This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

Glad this thread has prompted some debate.

I have no personal axe to grind with the people that despise Red Ken. That's your right.

Oneworld is also perfectly entitled to his opinion and has made clear he doesn't live in London. TFS - I assume you do.

Mr Chips - I think you'll find most politicians are elected by a minority. There's a thread elsewhere on JB about Margaret Thatcher, a lady who was never elected by a majority. It cuts both ways, especially when you get people who don't vote.

One of the things about politics that gets me is that people who don't vote then whinge about their elected leaders. If you can't be arsed to vote, you're not really entitled to whine.

Even if you disagree with all the candidates on the ballot paper, at least get off your arse and spoil your vote. An election only happens every four or five years. Millions died so that we can vote, we should do it.

Spinflight,

Care to provide some references for that tosh?

I drive into Central London 3 times a week on business (no public transport option due to stuff I carry).
The congestion charge is no more than a tax on the people KL doesn't like (in this case car owners - he isn't one).
It has not speeded up traffic.
It has not reduced congestion.
It has not created a fund for investment in public transport.
It is therefore a failure. But of course KL won't admit that, and is planning to extend it further, to an area where more people he doesn't like happen to live.

He may have won the election to be Mayor, but he's an utterly disreputable individual with the morals of Hitler and the politics of Stalin.

You may think I don't rate him.....

Hey, he won the 2012 Olympics for London! Ken as Mayor, Tony as PM, it will go down as part of their legacy then come the big day they will be able to sit as guests of honour while others argue about picking up the tab (cynical, moi?)

Although I'm from oop North, I spend a lot of my working time in London and I'm not so sure about RKs motives and would certainly question some of his policies and previous actions.

Does the mayor only have a limited number of terms or could he be there for a long time to come?

I live in London.

We can argue for ever about congestion charges and the number of buses on the streets, but like many socialists before him, Ken has created a mountain of debt which the businesses and rate payers of London will have to pay for ad inf.

The minutes of London Assemby meetings and the balance sheets and cash flow estimates of Transport for London are in the public domain - have a look on the internet.

He was first elected because Tony Blair tried to impose his official Labour candidate whom nobody knew or wanted. It was this hubris rather than anything Red Ken stood for that caused his election. Needless to say, Ken is now the official Labour Party candidate..

Jesus lads, give it a rest why don't you?

The people of London voted for the man whether you like it or not. (And you clearly don't)
Well, I read that as Oneworld telling us to stop slagging Ken off!


Your own Royal Family has a fine history of anti-semitism Mr. Chips, are you going to have a pop at them as well?
I had never noticed that the Queen had ever accused a Jewish reporter of acting like a concentration camp guard If you can provide evidence of this, i would be interested to hear it... (Princess michaels exploits don't count)

Angels - i agree about most politicians getting in on a minority vote (although I'm sure Ken even excelled himself on that!) but i was getting a bit fed up of smoe posters telling us that as he was elected, we should just accept it....

Chips

I was thinking more of the Queens late sister and the future King's younger brother dressing up in full Nazi uniform to be honest....

Well I suppose we, like you could tell you, Jesus give it a rest OW, but then we would be drifting from the subject of the rather dodgy individual conducting his power grab in London.

A lot of his policies regarding the congestion charge and public transport haven't really worked, and it would be interesting just to see how the massive ammounts of money from the motorists in parking fees, fines and congestion charges really are spent?

Can't honestly remember where I read it Dave, though I do seem to remember that some huggies were involved.

Provided red ken with a dossier on some of Qaradawi's outporing on gays, lesbians, bint stuff and the like. Seeing as though this was likely to offend the huggy lobby which red ken relies on he needed to do something.

There you go Dave, get down to your library and do a search on bint stuff. :)

I see Red Ken and those who support him as part of the multitude who've got it all wrong.

But he was elected by his constuents who are accountable for it to London and others affected by his miscreance.

yes he was elected by them Londoners - by, errm, 36.95% of electorate that bothered to vote, and of those 35.70% had Kenneth as 1st choice, then it gets complicated - see here

Livingstone I presume (http://www.londonelects.org.uk/results/mayor/index.html)

So that equals a resounding victory.

If that Rushton was a resounding victory, then you young Willie are in a Top Hat, Bow tie and Tails. :rolleyes:

Wasnt it Ken in his infinite wisdom to cut traffic conjestion decided that 7 seaters were exempt from the charge.....so now everyones charging round in Landrovers and other 4x4s and creating more pollution than before.....shrewd move that Ken....well thought out and implemented plan

He's a deeply thoughful chap just hadn't thought of that one.:(

Yes, London definitely should have had Jeffrey Archer in the hot seat. A much more sensible option.

Stick to Dublin you might at least know your way around.

Says the man who lived and worked in the Magic Kingdom!! :p

Well you got that right, lived and worked and had an abode in London. Pub not open?

oh I see!! Another mature observation, I live in Ireland and therfore my life must revolve around the Pub!

Bloody hell man, Bernard Manning had better watch out!

Pub not open?

At least we can get a drink on Good Friday.........

I've got an Irish passport OW22 so how come the racism comment? I go to the pub don't you? Your sensitivity is amazing, do try and concentrate on Ken Livingston. Oh and by the way he's not a comedian to many in London, Manning at least raises a laugh Ken not many at all.

Many years ago there was a wonderful recording of a ceilidh where the participants accused each other of playing a bum note, which degenerated into a full conflict 'Take that!' 'Mind me harp!' etc etc.
Seemed to epitomise the Irish to me, but 1W22 and Paterbrat might dispute that!

(Googoo tells me it was a Peter Sellars spoof.)

Anybody recall any more than:-
The piano player becoming involved with other musicians in a vigorous exchange of opinion regarding the proper rendition of their musical skills.
The piano player initiates this traditional Hibernian musical sequence by saying to the fiddler something like, "Dat was a bum note y'were playin dere Paddy."
And during the melee the Harp player says " Mind me harp! Mind me harp!
Och! I'll never get to heaven now!"
The session properly ends with an all-in donnybrook in which the piano and all the other instruments are demolished.

Since when was taking the p*ss out of nazis anti-semitic, 1W22? Surely making fun of those that were anti-semitic shows a healthy distain for anti-semites. Or are fancy-dress costumes a measure of political allegiance in your One World? Do you go to fancy dress parties simply to proclaim your politics? Here they are supposed to be fun, not rallies to the cause.

So who's loved/hated/garnered more press, Galloway or Ken?


OW
I can't help but chuckle thinking about your comments. You chastise, only Londoners get to weigh in. No one other than those who live there. You then use an example of Bush as your President when you don't live here.

But I vote in US elections WC! As a voter then surely I can have a say. And US elections are surey different then municipal elections, the outcome of the past 2 US elections has greatly affected the rest of the world. A mayor of a European city doesn't have the same reach!

And I am being totally consistent. Just like I am saying that GWB is POTUS and was elected fair and square and even though some of us mightn't like that, that's democracy, the same has to be said for London. And in both cases, I am saying it's wrong to claim the voters who elected these guys in are stupid, or ill-informed.

There's a tendency in the west I notice, to claim that when a guy or party gets voted in who we don't like, that that election was somehow flawed and a majority didn't elect him, blah, blah blah.

SC, we clashed over the Prince Harry thing before. I'm not going to get into another personal discussion about it! I hope you excuse me this time. I'm on the hitlist of too many PPRuNers nowadays!!

You're right OW, it just seemed (and still does) funny on its initial read. I didn't know you were getting beat up over Harry and the royal in general. The swastika thing was a mistake by a young kid who doesn't possess the proper historical context and is sufficiently removed from its reality. I'd say that about any young lad or lad'et that wore it. Now, the idea of royalty is silly.
Stick to yer guns.

Ken's anti-sematic comments are coming to trial today. The board of British jews are pushing him to apologise. His " concentration camp guard " comments to a Jewish journalist could force the tribunal to recommend that Ken is turfed out of office !! I will take a day off and get blotto if that moron is expelled - and you're all welcome !

No doubt because of your sincere and deeply held views on Judaism, as opposed to a hatred of anybody left of centre? :uhoh:

Bins, you Auzzies wouldn't put up with him ! He's like an Abbo Alan Bond !

I live in North Hampshire and I am all in favour of the congestion charge which I am told has improved the lot of Londoners no end.
With this in mind I have put a suggestion to Hampshire county Council that they should charge all Londoners a congestion charge as they leave London on the weekend and especially on Bank holidays as all this London traffic makes it hell for the local people here .

Awaiting a reply :ok: