Troops stranded in Basra by grounded planes

[Lyneham Lad]

From today's Daily Telegraph:-
Troops stranded in Iraq by grounded planes
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 07/10/2005)

Hundreds of British troops were stranded in Iraq yesterday after all the RAF's specialised aircraft were grounded with mechanical faults.

Two and a half years of constant operations have taken their toll on the ageing Tristar aircraft

Soldiers who have completed their six-month tours or are due to go on leave have had to wait for a week as technicians try to repair the three RAF Tristars, which can carry up to 260 troops.

Two and a half years of constant operations have taken their toll on the ageing aircraft and the situation has become so serious that defence chiefs have ordered the RAF's four massive C17 air transporters to be used to ferry troops out of the operational theatre.

But the aircraft, designed to carry heavy military equipment including tanks, can only carry 102 troops, leading to a huge backlog.

Michael Ancram, the shadow defence secretary, said he would be demanding an immediate investigation.

"This is disgraceful and a further sign of defence overstretch. I will be writing to the Secretary of State asking for urgent action," he said.

"This is an example of what happens when you are trying to conduct operations on a hand-to-mouth existence without the right amount of spending available."

The "air bridge" to Iraq will come under greater strain in coming weeks as 12 Mechanised Brigade finishes its six-month deployment and is replaced by 7 Armoured Brigade.

Soldiers have also been left for weeks in Britain waiting to return to their units. An infantry officer in Basra reported yesterday that one of his men was 20 days overdue from leave after being stranded.

The mother of one 24-year-old private who had been sweating in 122F (50C) heat at the British headquarters in Basra airport for the last week said she was going "completely mad" awaiting his return.

"They have had to put up with and seen some terrible things during their tour," she said. "Now they have to sweat it out at the airport, with missile attacks, because the military does not have enough planes working. It's been very hard on all of us."

A military source in Basra said there were problems "coming in and out of this place" with high demands being made on aircraft. "Unless they are fitted with specialist kit they will not be allowed into theatre because we will not put our guys into any danger," he added.

All flights into Basra are at night with a black-out inside the aircraft. Civilian planes cannot be used as special air defence measures are required for the hostile environment. The military has attempted to send troops from Basra on Hercules transporters to Qatar and then on charter flights home with Monarch Airlines but failed to get diplomatic clearance from the Arab Emirates.

An RAF spokesman said two of the Tristars had been lost to "minor servicing issues" and another needed longer-term repairs.

The air transport situation has become so serious that the MoD is attempting to raise money to lease two more C17s from Boeing.

Without an increase in aircraft the logistics chain for the deployment of a brigade to Afghanistan early next year will be threatened.

An RAF technician warned that although aircrew might get tired "it's the airframe on these aircraft that is being put under great strain. It's because of cutbacks - they just don't have enough money."

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Will this make the politicians realise that you can't get something for nothing? Sadly, I suspect not. It costs money to run an air force, even more to run one with numerous major commitments. Logic says that if you keep the cutbacks coming, there will come a point where you cannot maintain the capability, regardless of how much goodwill, effort, dedication, overtime, cancelled leave etc those at the sharp end can deliver. This really does exemplify the poor way in which the RAF is treated (NB the UAS cuts).

The pongos are fully justified in being extremely p1ssed off but must direct their anger towards the Govt and not the gingers and drivers (airframe) within the RAF.


PS If I was King, I would have bought B767 for the AT, AR, AEW and any other role I could think of. A bit of initial outlay, but then you have the benefit of commonality and a modern airframe with low operating costs. Unfortunately, the way the Govt has always done it is just the reverse, for example the VC10. Buy airframes that airlines are getting rid of because they are obsolete (and this was 25 years ago), difficult to maintain and uneconomic to run. That said, VC10s are very good looking and sound cool. The VC10s should be nicely looked after in museums by now, and the Timmys should be sitting in the Mojave desert.

[Maddog Red]

Well at least the future looks better when they get the A330 aircraft all new and shiny, that they are getting in the tanker deal. Shame it is still some years off.

[November4]

RAF spokesman said two of the Tristars had been lost to "minor servicing issues" and another needed longer-term repairs.

and what good timing when they can't get into BZZ for the minor servicing issues........ :eek: :}

[Maddog Red]

By Howard Wheeldon A DOW JONES NEWSWIRES COLUMN

LONDON (Dow Jones)--News that hundreds of British troops slated for return home have been stranded in Basra due to serviceability problems of TriStar aircraft belonging to RAF Transport Command comes as no surprise.

It highlights the need to speed up negotiations on the proposed GBP13 billion Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft PFI that have been going on between the MoD and Airbus (ABI.YY) for almost a year, and it also shows the RAF needs additional aircraft in the short term.

Having finally won preferred status in February for what will be the U.K.'s largest-ever PFI project, the Air Tanker consortium led by Airbus and including Cobham (COB.LN), Rolls Royce (RR.LN), VT Group (VTG.LN) and Thales (12132.FR) is still bogged down in final contract talks with the MoD, and the service date planned from 2010 looks increasingly in doubt.

FSTA is designed not only to replace the U.K's fleet of VC10 and TriStar tanker planes but also to provide the RAF with a modern fleet of A330-200 transporters. The idea is that all the aircraft can be used in either configuration according to need, and when not required can be leased by the Air Tanker consortium to the private sector.

2010 is the marker, but the RAF, using 40-year old aircraft to ferry troops, needs more planes well before then. With just nine TriStar aircraft in four different configurations including tanker, cargo and passenger, this is not nearly enough for the demands being put on Transport Command.

The TriStars were acquired from either British Airways (BA.LN) or Pan Am and date from the early 1970s. Though extremely reliable, spare parts are a constant problem, as the Lockheed plane has been out of production since 1984. They aren't the oldest aircraft in the fleet either: that label goes to the 17 Vickers VC10s from 1964/5.

The problem is the years of delay in properly equipping RAF Transport Command with enough suitable aircraft to cope with its needs. The existing VC10 and TriStar fleet is being hammered to death with daily flights to Iraq and many other locations supporting British troops out in the field.

The demands on Transport Command are probably greater than at any time in the last twenty years, and the fact is that even if the RAF didn't have constant serviceability problems it still hasn't got enough aircraft.

True, the troops stuck in Basra waiting to go on leave aren't helped by the fact that Transport Command planes can only fly in and out of Basra at night. And some flights to Basra go via Cyprus, meaning troops have to transfer to smaller Hercules planes for the final leg of the journey.

This is hardly ideal, and often requires two noisy Hercules Js in which troops travel in relative discomfort, wearing full body armor and for the most part in pitch black darkness.

Though the current fleet can and will be kept serviceable until FSTA aircraft replace them, the solution to this problem should be that the RAF buy or lease temporary planes. With four massive Boeing C17s already on lease and a fifth likely to be added, taking more C17s could be an answer - if they could be quickly made available.

And there are plenty of retired TriStars that could still be brought back into action.

A braver decision might well be to buy or lease some used Airbus A330s, perhaps negotiating this as a preliminary move within the overall FSTA contract. That would solve the short-term problem and pilots could start getting used to the new aircraft type.

There is no doubt the RAF needs additional aircraft and it needs them now. The VC10 might still be a great beast and, amazingly, the fastest passenger aircraft still flying while the TriStar is a remarkably comfortable plane. But to continually flog them beyond their endurance capabilities is a risky stress test and means they probably won't last another eight years.

British troops deserve better than delays, particularly when stuck in sweltering heat with little if any air conditioning at the tired remains of what is Basra airport today.

[mystic_meg]

IIRC, Transport Command ceased to exist a number of years ago...mid 70's?? Beags, over to you!..

[Archimedes]

1968-ish, wasn't it? Absorbed into Air Support Command and thence into Strike in 1972/73?

[Irish Tempest]

Should keep the boys in the ARC IPT working at the w/e !:ok:

[jindabyne]

Arch & mystic

TC renamed as ASC in Aug '67; then absorbed into STC Sep '72 as 38Gp (Tac) and 46Gp (Strat).

Have a beak at www.rafweb.org - full of all sorts of historical stuff.

[BEagle]

Well, what a surprise this all is....

We should have bought those 24-ish A310 MRTTs first proposed over 10 years ago before all the utter bolleaux of PFI first stated.

I feel very sorry for the guys stuck in the desert $hithole whilst the gingerbeers do their best to patch up the ageing TriShaws.

One hopes that questions will be asked at high level about this!

PS - Transport Command indeed disappeared in 1968!

[monkeybumhead]

It isn't just the lack of spares that's crippling the AT fleet. It may be something to do with a lack of manpower as well. We are doing our best to keep Albert in the air at Lyneham, but you can only do so much with so few.

[santiago15]

It's never good to see the RAF being publicly embarrased in this way. However, one only hopes that now the problem has been aired in this way something is done to resolve it - ASAP.

[JessTheDog]

It's never good to see the RAF being publicly embarrased in this way. However, one only hopes that now the problem has been aired in this way something is done to resolve it - ASAP.


Something will be done - the Secretary of State will b0llock the Permanant Secretary, who will b0llock CAS, who will b0llock CinC Strike, who will b0llock AOC 2 Gp, who will b0llock the relevant Gp Capt and the appropriate Stn Cdr, who will b0llock everyone else for leaking information! :E

[BEagle]

"Hurumph - contrary to order and discipline, methinks"
"What is, Sir? Telling the truth?"
"Now - that's quite enough of that conshi talk, boy, just cut along,will you! Anyway, must go - urgent appointment with m' tailor in town"

...'twas ever thus.

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't forget your hat sir.

[enginesuck]

am heading out there in two weeks - hope they are still broken so im delayed !

[Logistics Loader]

I read this topic with great interest.
Unless i'm tired there seemed to be a very salient point missing in here guys.
The Tristars were flogged to death from 1984 on the South Atlantic run, 16,000mile round trip...how many flying hours were amassed during that route in total.

History in all its forms has always repeated itself.
Maj Gen Peter De La Billiere said after Gulf 1, " we are doing more and more, with less and less...!!!!"

What happens, SDR comes in. S for Strategic, well what utter Bolleaux, how can we do strategic when more and more aircraft sorties are lost through lack of cash/resources.

I know there was always them and us between movers and techies, but for once, as an Ex Mover, i have to give credit where credit is due, but they still manage to keep the frames in the air with what resources they are left with.

As for replacement aircraft, the NATO AWACS Component had it sorted.

Operate a 707 in the PCF Role (known as the TCA). This frame doubled as a troop carrier as well as a training frame for the E3D.

The Airbus fleet i believe from a recent documentary is a "family" aircraft.
IE...you qualify on a A319 and the flight deck in the A340 is the same albeit extra instruments for the extra engines. Thereby saving vast sums of money on more training and spares...

[soddim]

So what would we do if it was necessary to pull the troops out in a hurry? Iraq is hardly close enough for a day's sail by hundreds of small craft. Perhaps before Blair struts the World stage again with his mate George he might like to study his resources more carefully and then maintain the funding for them.

[The Gorilla]

And I am afraid that you can't just buy a few Tristars out of the desert either! Where will the Flight Eng's come from? I seem to remember someone shut the school down!!!

Hee hee hee the grass really is greener..

Oh and you guys will be taking on Iran soon methinks...


:O

[MarkD]

Could always ask the Bearded One for some of his 340-300s that are being replaced by 346s if they aren't spoken for (i.e. going to Nigeria). The French AF just picked up two ex Austrian 340-200s for troop transport on lease.

[truckiebloke]

As i understand it there is an even bigger screw up here.... these technical problems have been known about for some time, and in fact were scheduled repairs....

That said, many attempts were made to get chartered aircraft into various places (wont mention names obviously) BUT the massive problem was diplomatic clearances.... This should not have been a problem because this was known about long in advance!!! But it all fell apart.

Another point to note is the armys BLOCK BOOKING of the tristars meaning that they often went home with empty seats even though people had been turned away from the flight(by the movers)..

The whole situation was a disaster but was not only the RAF's fault.... poor planning by all on this one!!

On another note, the passenger checking in at Basra ( a perfectly functioning airport til the army destroyed it) are treated worse than cattle, with no air con, extremely limited food and sat around for up to 12 hours plus....

[The Helpful Stacker]

I witnessed a completely empty Tristar disappear off back to BZN whilst I was in Basrah while a full load of passengers filed onto buses for transit.

The reason, that wonderful box of tricks that makes RPG's magically miss a lumbering slow passenger a/c on finals going tits-up. Duty of care eh? 2 years ago none of the regular passenger a/c were fitted with ECM yet that night it was far too dangerous to take the pax back so it was a second night in transit for them. God forbid soldiers who've spent 6 months driving up and down route 6 in soft skinned Land Rovers doing top cover run the risk of taking off at night in a plane with no ECM.

Its not on. The British Army are our main customer and with crap like this its no wonder we get so much stick from them.

[scpc]

"RAF spokesman said two of the Tristars had been lost to "minor servicing issues" and another needed longer-term repairs."

Not bad out of a fleet of 3 C2s, the only ones that can take passengers into theatre!!!

[zedder]

Bring back the Comet:

http://user.itl.net/~colonial/comet/latest.html

When it was pensioned off from Bsocombe Down one of the options to keep it flying, was to give it to Kinloss to be used as a Sqn hack. Instead of sending the 3rd crew and the groundcrew by Herc, 'Canopus' fitted out with about 50 seats would have been able to follow the 2 deploying Nimrods and everyone gets there in comfort.

The plan fell apart when some short-sighted ar$e decided we couldn't afford to put the Comet through a major at Kinloss.

[BEagle]

From Sky News:

'TWO MORE YEARS IN IRAQ'

The President of Iraq has told Sky News that British troops will not be able to leave the country for at least two more years.

Jalal Talabani was speaking as UK forces arrested 12 people in southern Iraq, suspected of being linked to the increase in attacks against allied troops.


Despite the violence and on-going US operations against the militants, the President said he believed the country's constitution would be approved and that Iraq would not descend into civil war.

Mr Talabani, a former Kurdish fighter against Saddam and now President, told Sky News Foreign Affairs Editor Tim Marshall: "Within two years I think our forces will be ready to replace the coalition forces in Iraq.

"But that depends on a resolution from the (United Nations) Security Council and negotiations between the Iraqi government and the coalition forces.

The recent pictures from Basra might give the impression that the Iraqi people are against the British. Mr Talabani disagrees and argues against the idea that they are occupiers, calling them heroes.

"Iraq was a concentration camp above the Earth and the mass graves are beneath it. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are buried in these mass graves.

"You came, Americans came, to rescue the Iraqi people.

"I think one of the noble goals which the coalition forces achieved is that 27 million Iraqis were freed from this dictatorship, which was not only dangerous for Iraqi people but for the Middle East."

So if the Timmies are shagged out now, how will they last the next 2 years?

[The Rocket]

The British Army are our main customer

Turn it in Stacker. If I'm not mistaken we are all employed in Her Majesties Government, and we all piss in the same pot.

Since when did we turn into a new age, profit making, service providing organisation:rolleyes: :yuk: :yuk:

[scpc]

What do you think Beags? Bring back the VC10!

[BEagle]

Nope.

$hitcan the pointless and totally useless aircraft carrier programme and buy some A330s.

[Widger]

$hitcan the pointless and totally useless aircraft carrier programme and buy some A330s.


Wondered when the inter-service slagging off would come up.

Beags you harris, that has got nothing to do with it. If you hadn't spent so much money on bunkers in the ground (IUKADGE) and Nimwacs then you could have afforded your A330s.

The problem lies firmly in light blue laps, stop blaming everyone else!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear Rocket:confused:

You slagged of stacker for saying "The British Army are our main customer"... but if they are not then who is?

I may well be wrong but do they not stump up out of their budget for every air asset they use...... can't believe we use Airforce money to move pongoes about :rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[brit bus driver]

Stacker, your naivety beggars belief.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Seems like it's a good time to leave then. I reckon at least half the AT fleet agree. 41000?, at this rate we will be 30,000 next year.

[KPax]

So how are we going to get further east when we take over lead nation status. That is a very long way by Albert

[brit bus driver]

Therein lies the rub, KPax.

Methinks the plan hath gone to the faeces of the rodent..

[The Helpful Stacker]

Stacker, your naivety beggars belief.

Why thank you, I aim to please.

Of course my comments are based on my ever so humble lowly opinions, which are in turn based on my experiences.

I've never a bad word to say about the SH chaps as I've worked alongside them on many occasions and witnessed them bending the rules in order to get a job done. What I witnessed in Basrah was a completely empty (except for trolley dollies of course) Tristar take off and head back to Blighty leaving a full load of pax to be bused to transit for the second night on the trot.

Now unfortunately unless us mushrooms are actually told whats going on we draw out own conclusions so perhaps its in the best interest of the AT folk (who's U/S aircraft affect so many) to be a bit more forthcoming with information so that the rank and file have a better idea of why they are enjoying another free night of bed and board at Club 18-30 Basrah rather than making their way back to the arms of their loved ones. I'm sure if you ask the folk over on Arrse what their number one gripe is with the RAF AT fleet its being delayed and not being given any information as to why.




Actually there was one good point about the many cancelled Tristar flights in the Gulf, it meant I could get my head down early if I was on shift and not have to try and sleep in my barely air-conditioned tent during the day, for that I suppose I should be grateful.

[scpc]

The master plan continues, invade Iraq, invade Afganisistan, get Turkey in the EU, park our new aircraft carriers in the Gulf and we have Iran surrounded. Hah!

Its ok, God made me do it.

[The Rocket]

Wilts,

You really are a comedy genius:ugh:

In no way have i slagged OFF Stacker. I simply make reference to the fact that we do NOT have "customers"

Perhaps, as you are obviously better informed than I, being a Loadmaster, you could inform us as to how else the Army could spend their share of the DEFENCE budget.

Were we the lowest bidders for their ongoing charter to Basra?

Can I hire one of your C-130's to take me on holiday next year?

On second thoughts, if your Tea is as good as your banter, I'd rather row there.
:ok:

[scpc]

In a serious reply to helpful stacker. The point of contact between the pax and the AT crews are the movers. On too many occasions to mention I have found that the reason for a delay/cancellation has not been passed from AT crew to pax.

I have been frequently totally shocked by passengers telling me why they think a trip was altered that is so far removed from the truth it beggers belief! The source of their info; the movements staff.

AT crews have to deal with with the fall out from duff gen for the entire trip, its not in their interest to keep the truth from the pax, quite the opposite. They want the truth to be know and are often thwarted in their attempts to inform the pax, the Brize/Fairford situation makes it even worse.

OK time to get of my Rioja fuelled soap-box, 0-60 in 3 bottles!!!

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Rocket

Your Sqn's hire a C-130 for your holidays in Cyprus every year between Apr & Jul!!!

P.S. We make sure you don't get any tea, so as not to spoil you when you get back in your shiny steeds!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Thanks Squib,

I just love it when some "royals" point out in that oh so constructive manner how baldrick and fu@wit are somehow inter linked:}

Here is how I understand it. Within the military we have a system of budgets, and within that system individual budget holders, at all levels are responsible for ensuring the money they allocate is correctly spent whether they are buying ball point pens, four tonners or AT/SH hours.

Semantics or not I would suggest that the guy with his hands on the Army purse strings, or the fast jet sqn/navy etc etc budget holder who bids for AT/SH support, knowing that his bag of money, albeit notional, is going to be depleted to pay for crew pay/airframe hours/servicing costs etc will feel a little like a "customer" and it is incumbent on us in the AT/SH fleets to provide our customers, and trust me we do percieve them in that way, with the best service their funds have paid for.

Therefore Stacker is fully correct, we have customers who as individual budget holders at all levels, utilise their share of the pot to pay for our services, unless of course I have missed something blindingly obvious, which I am sure you will be quick to point out:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Cockney Geezer]

Helpful Stacker,

The reason, we're out there is to bring everyone home. It doesn't give us some sort of "kick" to have an empty jet. If for some reason, we can't bring you home, including "box of tricks" then, sorry, but thats that.

There may be rules that can be bent, but not these ones.

Do at least some research, before you spurt your utter b****x!

scpc - very true!

CG

[Uncle Ginsters]

Stacker,
If you were fishing, then you've caught a live one here :bored: - Your naivety does beggar belief :\ Having already lost an AT asset in theatre and seeing the impact on the whole Brit contingent, can you imagine the full effect of losing a Tri*?!? :uhoh:

Maybe just sometimes being in one place, i.e. Basrah Airport, is better than 240-odd bodies scattered over the GIFA in component-form. The options really are that stark - threats change, as do required measures.

There may be those that 'bend rules' but that's not something you do lightly with 240 souls-on-board. A responsibility i've yet to see a mover acknowledge. So just how is it that the crews are responsible for poor pax briefing? Who is supposedly the interface here - i too have heard some utter bolleaux excuses from movers whilst dead-heading around. It's not to anyone's benefit, we're all trying too push $hit uphill. We should just admit that and do the best, safest job possible. Nobody benefits from bull$hit cover stories.


**All entries fuelled by JD, Coke & a hatred for the narrow-minded**

Uncle G

[Alwaysbrokeniniraq]

All these squaddies stuck in basra need do is get a lift down to kuwait and fly home civilian air.

That's what the merlin pilots did, club class i believe.

But they did deserve it, they had done at least 6 weeks in theatre.

[Training Risky]

ho ho ho...

What's this about 28(Any Cargo?) Sqn and club class?

There's a story here I reckon!:eek:

[SilsoeSid]

It was just the other day when a Tristar landed at BHX, parked up on the western apron, stairs went to the front door, one person walked down the stairs, in a suit, into a waiting Astra (RAF is spot on with co-ordination), stairs pulled back, door closed, 30 min wait, Tristar left.

OK, so probably a comp case and circumstances may now have changed around the Bazaars, but standing there refuelling the steed, I thought, 'Perhaps a little overkill, but what good service!'

:ok:
SS

[Pontius Navigator]

Zedder has a point about Canopus. At the outset I believe the Nimrod was designed to carry 46 pax in an evacuation role. The jez racks and I think galley would have been unplugged and pax seats fitted.

Now that we have so many spare Nimrods - well we started with 46, converted one to an R, Cat 5 1(?), chopped up a number for Mk3s, chopped up some more for Mark 4, and still have some Mk 2s. We must have at least one spare airframe somewhere. Strip out the electronics then you have the same integral AT/Trainer that the NATO AEW has.

[dionysius]

I see this reasonably sensible thread has been "hijacked" by the anti mover brigade yet again :confused:

[truckiebloke]

well, after spending 17 hours in hot and uncomfortable surroundings with no information being fed through i am a little bitter about the movers too!!!

Also after having worked with them at basra, i can assure you that between them and the army, there is hardly a good one to be found at the moment!

For instance, always leaving late due to movers not turning up at a/c, then landing to find that there are none to meet you - and it happened lots....

Just another thought it that there are far to many 'cogs' now at basra and iraq for things to get done well...

Why are we still living in tents that are so past their sell by date, crammed in and just waiting for the insurgents to get lucky with a mortar strike...(but its ok 'cos there isnt any money for improvement as the senior officers need their top of the range landrover discovery...)

Whilst we concentrate on looking at all the little things that are easy to fix and boll**k people for, we wont improve...
The nice new examples are the wearing of sunglasses on the head(tut tut!), wearing of charity bands, sunbathing, sleeves not rolled the correct amount of times to be 'middle of the bicep' etc etc

All pointless triv. In two years the whole situation has got worse to the point where morale is non-existant and people are clambering over everyone else to leave.

The whole unable to get home situation just rubs salt into the wounds...

[Logistics Loader]

Maybe half the problem is in the calibre of staff in this So Called Modern Forces...!!

Some people are not in the forces for a job per se, but just to guarantee beer tokens at the end of the month and sail through day to day doing the bare minimum to survive.

My intention is not to blow my own trumpet, but, as a JNCO (at that time) working on passenger duty, i always ensured that i had the latest info from the crew if the flight was delayed. This was briefed to my team and then onto the passengers...

Movers both Blue or Green by virtue of the job are always stuck between the Devil and a Hard Place, it is easy for the Passengers to rip into the Movs Staff...

Look at the Airline programme on TV....!!!!
Same things happen in civvy street., aircraft go belly up, and suddenly the check in staff are to blame...The French ATC system will shut down with little or no notice, then its the check in staff at fault again.

Yes there are good and bad in all walks of life. If you think you can do better, have a go at arranging flights for people who have been stuck for days when you have already got limited resources, which are then compounde because your aircraft is now broken thereby reducing resources further....

Yes everyone wants to get home...yes its annoying to be stuck somewhere, it happened to me as a mover, i had to be somewhere for a task, couldnt get there, had to live with it...!!!!

So I know from both sides what its like....but knowing how the system works i dont let my blood pressure rise...!!!

[1256C]

f**k them all who gives a damm as long as I get my hours for BA and my captancy hours f**k them

[Logistics Loader]

With spelling like that I hope you get to Elgin not Eglin...if you F@*K up your flight plan....

Like your handle though 1256C....

You cant be a pilot....!!!

[opso]

Stacker:I witnessed a completely empty Tristar disappear off back to BZN whilst I was in Basrah while a full load of passengers filed onto buses for transit. The threat acceptance for ac movements in theatre lays with the theatre cdrs ie it is the army in theatre that say that the ac cannot depart with the pax. I agree that we should serve the 'punters' better and that this message should be shared better with them.

ABIW:I may well be wrong but do they not stump up out of their budget for every air asset they use...... can't believe we use Airforce money to move pongoes about And indeed, you are wrong. The ATF is funded from the TLB on the basis of the predicted number of hrs to be flown in a FY in support of non-CP ops, trg and exs from the DXP. That funding is then more-or-less fixed (reviews do happen sometimes, in both directions depending on TLB issues) barring CP hrs. After that, the old adage of 'costs lay where they fall' comes in to force and if the ATF moves the army, the ATF picks up the bill. If DTMA charter airlift to move the army, then (usually) DTMA pick up the bill, unless the army asks DTMA to book charter for them for an ex that has been refused airlift in the overall defence programme at which point, the army will be told the price of the charter and if they go ahead, then the army will pick up the bill.

I do hold with you though ABIW that the army (through PJHQ) is our 'main customer' in that it represents the single biggest user of the ATF and we should be as attuned as possible to providing the best possible service end-to-end. That said, the 'customer' isn't always right and should only ask for what's possible and listen when they're told it isn't achievable - but that's another story.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Not how it was explained to me a few years back when we tried to move 18 sqn for our annual winter flyex in Norway, however I have no reason to doubt your explanation, cheers opso.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Rev I. Tin]

The threat acceptance for ac movements in theatre lays with the theatre cdrs ie it is the army in theatre that say that the ac cannot depart with the pax.

Opso,
No it isn't. Go south and find the fella with light blue rank tabs. He says what goes.

God bless.

[opso]

We meet again Rev! Good working through the night isn't it? ;)

Do you honestly believe that with all the politics surrounding the trooper (going back over several months) that ACC is able to make the call to leave troops behind without higher, local support?

ABIW:

It could be that your sqn ex had already been refused airlift and so there was a charter bill to be footed by sqn/STC Ex staff? Otherwise, you were misled at the time, as ATF travel doesn't cost the UK military user unit. (Although OGDs have differing rules).

[Beeayeate]

ABIW
. . . us in the AT/SH fleets to provide our customers, and trust me we do percieve them in that way,

Maybe that's the whole problem! Maybe, just maybe, you could treat them like mates who do a different part of the overall job.

:rolleyes:

[The Rocket]

Beeayeate,

My point exactly.

I think that Always_bleating_in_wilts just likes to be objective, and try to reel in as many as possible.:rolleyes:

Love the new pet name though ABIW;) You really make me feel special:ok:

[Rev I. Tin]

Opso,

Think I just worked out who you are!

You know I couldn't possibly comment/reply without standing to attention with hat, without biccies in various offices. Don't forget I look down at you and look up to him... ish.

God bless.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

BT,

Loadie's cant be everyones mates when they get on board as we have responsibilty for their in flight safety and comfort amongst other things, but what ever verb we/I choose to use to describe Pax is pretty much irrelevant. Most of us make it our aim to provide as best a service as we can to all who board any Albert. Where possible we always give hot food whether it be Pizza's, other snacks or meals and now I instruct I pass that ethos on to the students I fly with. There should always be a hot drink for those that want it even though the rules say you don't have to, but they dont say you can't try:ok:

Squib,

Unfortunately from the back seat of your pointy thing you and I are never going to aggree on this one, just hope that at some stage you get on Albert with me operating and maybe I can change your outlook for the better:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[The Rocket]

ABIW,

How very gracious of you. It wasn't ever a dig at you personally mate, I just dislike the whole "Customers, Executives, Agencies" route the modern RAF is taking.:yuk:

And to finally rise to your bait:p Front seat, not back:cool: :p :p

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I knew I would get it out of you eventually:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[desert_ranger]

The lads on the ground here are becomming dis-heartened. They are all due rotation and see the RAF as a failure in its ability to get them home to families, wives and girl-friends on time. It is not a lot to ask after serving here but no-one seems to care.
Its about time the british military ownes up to the fact that we are operating above and beyond, past breaking strain. Its no wonder guys are leaving the forces in their droves. If this is the support we recieve then the Goverment and Military chiefs are going to get a shock after the draw-down and guys continue to leave. Welfare, its not optional.

[Logistics Loader]

The Government and the Chiefs aint listening though are they..!!!!

Didnt listen to the Senior Soldier after Gulf 1, this whole episode is the same.....Gen Sir Peter said we were overstretched then....more so now!!!!

[Sideshow Bob]

desert_ranger
Not in the desert again are you old boy? How's life out there?

P.S. I didn't break them, haven't been near a Basrah jet, honest gov.

[BEagle]

desert_ranger, quite so!

Whether it's clapped-out, overstretched, knackered old jets years past their use-by date, problems with 'equipment' needed for such jets to operate safely in theatre, not enough spares/crews/pies or WTF - that is immaterial.

To the 'PBI' who just want to get home, the perception is that the Brylcreem Boys just aren't cutting it. OK - that's probably a mis-perception, but to A N Other Grunt who just wants to get home, that's immaterial. I don't blame them AT ALL for feeling TOTALLY pi$$ed off at the lack of reliable AT - the blame lies squarely with an ageing old fleet which should have been replaced years ago with something from some time later than the stone age.

But with such a 'fast-jet centric' bunch running the pale blue bit of the mad MoD-box, is it any surprise that the AT/AAR fleet - invariably one of the more essential FW fleets in any conflict - always sucks the hind tit?

[The Gorilla]

Beagle

Couldn't agree more, what price/use the Euro Typhoon now eh??

Great toy totally useless!

:p

[stickmonkeytamer]

Been to Basra only once, stayed 90 minutes, got a/b, got a SAM launched at us- my Mum won't let me go back! I'm now slightly further east- much nicer- NOT!!! Don't know when we will get home- some are 5 weeks late already in getting out of here!

[Logistics Loader]

Isnt the Apache in the same cluster as Typhoon....
Gucci looking kit...
Like a handbrake on a canoe F@*Kin Useless

[Nantucket Sleighride]

chuck into the mix the Anonymous 747 that was speared by a set of steps in Fairford last week and is out for x weeks, so the tri* is covering the Falklands run in the meantime too

[Logistics Loader]

747 isnt Anonymous as far as i know...

Air Atlanter being used.....been used before to move MilPax,

Why ???

Cheapest charter option !!!

[Roguedent]

Loadie, Heard a rumour that the Tri* is getting the nice South Atlantic round robin back.

Everybody is working hard, everyone is overstretched, all the equipment is falling to bits, but at the end of the day, until the Govt puts it hand in its pocket then we will have to muck in like we always do. Its no ones fault the Jets Broke, the threat matrix won't let the 10 take pax, plus the 10 has the lovely weekend cargo run. When all the Drivers have gone to work for the bearded one, then they can use the trainer Ba-phoons to ferry one bloke home at a time, cos by then the Army will be Lord Hague, his wife, all his wife's tennis partners and some chap called Bernard.:ok:

[Logistics Loader]

This overstretch has been in the system for the last 15yrs almost...
Since Gulf 1....British Forces have been doing more and more with less and less.....

The coffers get chopped....
Then the balloon goes up somewhere, like the Gulf again, and we dont have the kit and manpower to mount a full scale deployment that was always something other forces would take note of..

The T* has gone back on the SA rte which was chartered out to CivAir, the same CivAir compant was also doing other rtes the T* was doing..vicious circle going on here...

[Maddog Red]

So when is the British Government going to sign on the dotted line with Air Tanker, so not to delay any future A330 deliveries. Enabling the modernisation to begin and let the old ladies that have done a fine job go to the plane graveyard in the sky, lets be honest its well over due.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Maddog red

Probably as and when AirTanker make the deal work. At the moment they do not plan to meet the requirement, if they do not meet the requirement why should we sign? That would be buying more kit that does not meet the original requirement leaving the MOD open to mre criticism of 'letting down the military'.

And if you are all hoping for FSTA to be the panacea then you are living in cloud cuckoo land! There won't be enough of them to do what we do now with 9 Tri*s and 26, 25, 23, 20, 19, 17......... VC10s!

[MarkD]

RP

what part of the requirement do AirTanker not meet?

[BEagle]

Don't forget that it was only ever supposed to be a Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft, not to replace the entire jet AT/AAR fleet.

Whereas if the 24-ish A310 Multi-Role Tanker Transports once offered by BAe had been bought to replace a similar number of VC10s, the RAF would have a vastly superior capability today.

AirTanker are probably only required to deliver a certain agreed FSTA capability to the RAF; however, as they will undoubtedly have a number of other A330s to place as their commercial needs dictate, perhaps they will contract seperately to support Trust-me-Tone's various regime-changing wars if the price is right?

Incidentally, my notes of the 1996 Covert Oxonian Aerodrome AT/AAR symposium recall:

Tranche 1 of the C130K replacement programme would be met by 25 x C130J.

Tranche 2 would be met by about 25 'FLA' (became A400M).

'Within 10 years' (i.e. by 2006) the VC10s and TriStars would be replaced by 25-30 'multi-role tanker transport' aircraft.

The 'FLA' was supposed to have an in service date (i.e. 50% delivered) of, wait for it, 2004

Well, they got the 130Js...... Then came 'Short Term Strategic Airlifter' which lead to the rent-a-Boeing C-17s intended to fill the gap pre-A400M.

And the ageing old '10s and Timmies are still struggling along to provide the main AAR and troop/pax capability. Years after they shuld have been replaced.

A310-300s are so popular with the rest of the world that few are available on the pre-owned aircraft market - they are rapidly snapped up by new buyers. Today, just 5 are available. The A310 has low acquisition, operating and maintenance costs and is in service with 5 air forces. A true wide-body (same 222" cross-section as the A330), in its AAR role it can carry 72 tonnes of fuel but only burns it at less than 70% of the rate of a VC10. Although no country has specified a centreline capability, EADS are already trialling a boom and it wouldn't take much to add a centereline hose.

[Roland Pulfrew]

MarkD

Lots actually but mainly to do with the finance side of the house and the requirement to have it off balance sheet. Have no doubt I am a fan of the KA330, it will make a fantastic TANKER. But will there be enough to do AAR & AT? It was always assumed that civil charter was the way ahead so we didn't need as many aircraft to cover all the AAR and a bit of the AT. Unfortunatley most civil ac do not come with ECM/DAS and as been indicated on this topic that is a bit of a show stopper during current ops!! Lots of people said it would but nobody listened and bits were salami sliced off from the FSTA programme.

Me I would buy a fleet of 20 KA or should that be KC330 to cover AAR & AT requirements, sadly the EP can't afford to buy 5 let alone 20. :{http://www.kc330.com/index.jsp

Edited to add the link, and the 'flypast' is one I would love to see!! :cool:

[MarkD]

RP

I don't think there are many on this board who don't think the PFI part is pants.

[RileyDove]

The whole programme to replace the current VC-10/Tristar fleet is a typical Mod farce. The opportunity existed when the Airbus
freighter line was at Filton to buy a couple to provide a little slack.
Phasing them in slowly would have provided crew training opportunities and alllowed ground crew to get up to speed on the type. Everything at present is geared to what we might get in the future - the problem exists now and the cost of keeping the VC-10 in the air any longer than it's scheduled retirement
date is seriously expensive.
We don't need a brand new fleet of A330's on PFI - the idea of
lease back to civil operators just doesn't work. The aircraft might be wanted for a couple of months in summertime and hardly any more . There are certainly Airbus aircraft stored in the Mojave that could seriously help the RAF get more servicable aircraft in the air and be more cost effective to operate . It needs thought and vision to sort the problem out - something which seems to be clearly lacking at the moment

[chrisstiles]

I thought there were still - very quietly run - flights between Sharjah and Basra run by the same lot who flew in a load of troops into Bagram a while ago.

[stickmonkeytamer]

If we stop people coming out for "visits" we would have more seats for those who need them -ie those who are already 5 weeks late in getting home! We have 2 Health and Safety people out this week to make sure we don't get splinters from wood, when we get shot at each day anyway! As a direct result, 2 military guys were taken off the flight home to make way for the H+S blokes...

[BEagle]

I do hope Jeremy Clarkson - with his deep seated loathing of the whole health and safety and enviro-fundamentalist claptrap industry - gets to hear of this! Particularly having just been in theatre himself.

[JessTheDog]

I do hope Jeremy Clarkson - with his deep seated loathing of the whole health and safety and enviro-fundamentalist claptrap industry - gets to hear of this! Particularly having just been in theatre himself.

Perhaps the fashion victim Clarkson could organise a reality TV programme. The aim would be to "race" the MoD to see who could bring back overdue soldiers more quickly, like Wacky Races or Around the World in 80 Days. The bearded virgin bloke could put up one of his planes (or balloons) and others could enter the race. It could be called the "Basra to Blighty Challenge"! :E

That would be a nice little PR stunt!

[exvicar]

With all of the bearded virgin blokes new aircraft orders, he could well put up an aircraft for the challenge. However, finding a crew to fly it when they could be partying on anyone of Vs numerous routes - doubt it!

[tgarden]

Some of the posts seem to suggest problems are continuing. When I raised the issue in the Lords on Monday 10 Oct, the Minister, Lord Drayson said in his reply:
We recognise the vital importance to morale and not least to our operational capability of being able to move our troops. The Tristar aircraft which we use are old and it is very important to replace them as soon as possible. We have had operational difficulty, as the noble Lord mentions, with defences on the aircraft. Of course, we will take no risk with our personnel in those transfers. However, I am pleased to report to the House that the issues relating to those aircraft have now been resolved and that there are no stranded forces as a result. We are working hard on this issue and I am spending a lot of time on it.

If this is not an accurate reflection of the current position, it would be helpful to know.

[bitsleftover]

Correct- the C-17 for example, has been continually taken off non op tasks to pick up tasks for the Tri*. The troops in the non op locations are therefore left feeling the failings of the AT fleet as well.

[Jackonicko]

AAP (acronym assistance, please)

TLB DTMA

TVM, TTFN

JN (JS)

[mystic_meg]

TLB DTMA
Top Level Budget (not to be confused with TLA, which is a Three Letter Acronym..) Defence Transport (and?) Movements Agency

TVM, TTFN
Thanks (or Ta) Very Much; Ta-Ta For Now

HTH, SUL:ok:

[LFFC]

From The Times Online:
RAF could rescue Wilma Britons
The Royal Air Force could be used to rescue British tourists stranded in Mexico by Hurricane Wilma. Foreign Office Minister Lord Triesman said he had made an urgent appeal to the Ministry of Defence to help travellers unable to leave the stricken Yucatan region. "I am trying to identify every bit of lifting capacity that may be available. I am asking if they can give us any help. They are checking," he told reporters in London. .....and just think, it was only a few years ago that we had to fight to keep any military AT capability that could carry passengers over strategic distances!

Hope to goodness that they hurry up with FSTA and that we can then satisfy AAR requirements as well as taking the Army wherever they want, when they want and also bail out the civilians whenever they don't have the capacity or can't get the insurance they need!

[tier2commando]

at least the last 3 tri* into theatre managed to keep up the good work, plus an extra one for a charter no show. no backlog now

[RileyDove]

LFFC - The problem with AT capacity is that the Mod has to get so tied up with future requirements and costings that they get away from the issue that the requirement is now!
It would have made perfect sense circa 2000 to buy 3 or 4 more Tristar's on the world market at say $3 million a piece and use them to help bridge the gaps. Even if you ended up only using them for a couple of years it would have been a stop gap
and if the worst case senario is that you need to retire them quickly you have assets that can be spares recovered.
The current situation with retirement extensions for the VC-10 is both costly in terms of manufacturer support and fuel costs
alone. The expertise exists within the air force to acquire further
Tristars - they should utilise it now and try and spread some of the fleet hours out.

[16 blades]

The issue is NOT the age of the aircraft - the Herc J's serviceability is as bad as, if not worse than, the K's. There are 2 reasons for this:

1) Notice how commercial operators do not insist on an artificial AF/BF cycle - we tinker with and service our aircraft TOO MUCH, and fly them TOO LITTLE. Their aircraft are constantly in the air, until they need to go into the sheds for, er...scheds. If you turn aircraft off and leave them sitting around, they will break, simple as that.

What we need to do is up our crew / aircraft ratios. Airlines will typically run with an 8:1 ratio - the Herc fleet currently runs with 1.75:1. With more crews, we can work the aircraft harder. Compare the serviceability rates of deployed aircraft (Basrah, Balad, MPA, etc) that typically work hard with the frames that get left lying around at Lyneham. More flying hours, more crew training, more offers of AT capability to the wider defence community, etc etc. One of the problems currently being masked by the aircraft serviceability issues is the real lack of crews (or more specifically the lack of crews qualified and current for certain tasking). Yes, I know we don't exactly work the same way as an airline, but it is something worth bearing in mind.

2) The second reason for woeful serviceability, again nothing to do with the age of the aircraft, is the ridiculous spares policy. Basically, we no longer hold a sufficient reserve of spares to cover contingiencies - "Just-In-Time" does NOT work in this environment. This will affect ANY aircraft we operate, whether it is 40 years old or 40 days old - I offer you once again the J vs K serviceability as an example.

It is a sad indictment indeed when a single incident (mover crashing steps into Air Atlanta's SA 747 airbridge) can have such far-reaching ramifications (many many people late into / out of MPA, lack of freight delivery, pulling of Tristars from other tasks to cover, Tristars going u/s and delaying at virtually every stop, and so on and so forth). We truly have reached the bottom of the barrel on the AT fleet - sadly I don't think a fleet of shiny new aircraft is going to help.

16B

[LFFC]

16 Blades,

You’re quite correct – if you turn off modern aircraft and leave them sitting around, they do indeed break as you start them up again! Civilian aircraft like the TriStar were never designed to be used and maintained the way we do so. It’s worth remembering that, when one of the C2 TriStars was “bounced” back in the 80’s, the other C2 flew the South Atlantic schedule on its own for 18 months without loosing a sortie! However, it was being serviced by BA at the time! So it really can be done!

Be careful when you talk about increasing the number of crews and working the aircraft harder to improve their serviceability. If you do that, you’d need a huge amount of additional flying hours – and that would cost big bucks! The fun detectors would soon realise that by using that logic, they could achieve the improvements you describe by reducing the number of aircraft without having to increase the flying hours!

You’re also absolutely correct about the spares policy. Unfortunately, in this case you are driven by MOD wide policy which (despite the best efforts of your technicians) may not be the best way of running your business. That’s why a new system is required – not just a shiny new aircraft!

From what I can understand, this is precisely what the FSTA project is out to achieve. The MOD’s contract with Airtanker will get civilians (who are the experts at supporting, maintaining and servicing modern airliners) to manage the process that provides you with serviceable FSTA whenever you need them.

From what I can see, the sooner you get FSTA up and running, the better it will be for everyone!

PS. - No, I don't work for Airtanker!! :p

[serf]

So, does the RAF need to rebalance?

Less FJ Sqns and more SH and AT?

Should the streaming policy direct the more capable students towards where they are constantly needed?

Does everyone have do go down the FJ pilot until proven otherwise route?

[LFFC]

Serf,

Some good questions. It’s true to say that, for some years now the RAF have been more often called upon by their allies to provide SH, Canberras and Tankers (in no particular order) during operations. From what I’ve heard, that’s mainly because the RAF are damned good at those jobs and often provide capabilities (like wing refuelling points) that are in short supply. Mind you, the arrival of Typhoon may change that.

Regarding streaming, it’s a fact that FJ pilots require a high degree of mental capacity, agility of thought and - dare I say it – arrogance. As those qualities are harder to find than just the ability to operate multi-engine and rotary wing aircraft, it makes sense to give everyone the chance to display them during initial flying training.

[MarkD]

In Canada there's an parliamentary undersecretary with responsibility for "Canadians abroad" - :yuk: - however, he stunned the media with some remarkable good sense when he noted that going to the Caribbean in hurricane season is risky and you shouldn't expect government to get you out, especially when you haven't told the government in advance you will be there.

Getting people out of Mexico is a civil matter between them and their tour op. Full stop.

[LFFC]

It's also a civil matter to decide which party governs the country. So its not surprising that the minds of those in power are usually focused by the plight of their civilian population.

[West Coast]

"he stunned the media with some remarkable good sense"

Can I get an Amen here? Have him send his CV to Washington, DC please. I'm sure he will be needing a job after he is crucified for reminding people of their personal responsibilities.