the search goes on and on and...

[pipergirl]

I have been trying to figure out where i am going to get my CPL/IR done and feel like banging my head off a wall!!!

I have come to the conclusion that Florida is the way to go for my CPL and Multi rating as it's just cheaper and quicker.

The only decision that is bugging the bejesus outta me is where to go for the Multi IR..

The differences in the prices, I find amazing especially the one quoted by Multiflight

JAA Instrument Rating with CPL (50 hrs) 8980.00

For all Commercial courses-Prices exclusive of V.A.T. and unless stated exclusive of landing/approach fees, 170A Test, CAA/JAA Test Fees.

Then Leeds across the road
Full IR course packages include : all landings, all approaches, and the initial 170a test fee £10,995

Initially, I was thinking that's a great price and very competitive, but when I read into the price list a bit mor, i found out why it was much cheaper.

I just find it misleading how a school can advertise a course £2000 under the average rate and then it turns out that's only because they aren't including VAT or landing/approach fees??!?!


sorry, my head is just wrecked looking into all these different schools and that just got on my nerves

[-IBLB-]

In the US, for some reason, VAT is never included in any pricing. Even if you go buy a carton of milk, in the supermarket it will show you the price without VAT.
So be careful about that.
Good thing about Florida is, that VAT is about 6%

[silverknapper]

It's a pain isn't it!
Multiflight are one in particular I find really irritating. They flash low prices about all over the place (here included). But when you dig deeper they aren't any lower than average. MCC is a good example. Why quote an ex vat price, we all have to pay it.
Guess it's just a case of you doing your research properly - don't be scared to phone up and ask!
One other one to look for is how schools charge for hours flown. Some are airborne +15 mins (10 for pre take off stuff and taxi/hold etc, 5 for after landing). Whilst this works out well if you are training at a large busy airfield (Leeds for example), be wary of smaller quiet airfields where you won't spend anything like that amount of time on checks and holding. The one that springs to mind is Perth.

[Send Clowns]

I would disagree with one thing, knapper. On IR training in a twin 10 minutes to just taxi and do all checks, including taking clearance and setting up and checking navaids is pretty quick. We charge lift to land plus 10 minutes so as to avoid charging students for delays on the ground, but that is the company standard for PPL through to MEIR so is not really realistic for the latter.

Pipergirl

You have at least found this little marketing trick without being fooled. It becomes little more than an annoyance when choosing schools and comparing fairly, although working out how many approaches at the home airfield you are likely to make is difficult. Have you asked why they are not on landing cards? That was always one that puzzled me.

[pipergirl]

I know, like how are you supposed to calculate how much the landing/approach fees are when they don't give you the prices?

Initially when I saw this price, I thought if i do the CPL, Multi IR and the MCC course (they have a discounted rate for the MCC if you do all three together) then i am due to save some big money..but when I looked further into it, that's when I discovered the fees etc were not included.

I really don't like that about a school (or any other business) doesn't give you the full cost.
Just goes to show, we all have to look into things properly .

Anyway, have to keep looking!

[-IBLB-]

Oh, don't forget, except for a few of the major airports in the US, none of them charge landingfees.

[pipergirl]

just in addition to my earlier post...

you know when a school advertises a course and they state the landing and approach fees are included, I presume they are only referring to the base airfield and other charges are not included?

So, If a school quotes you £11,000 for a Multi IR course and they state it includes landing/approach fees what extras( apart from an overrun on training)would you have to consider?
What have other people who have done the IR found the little extras to be?

[Genghis the Engineer]

If you're in the USA, virtually nowhere charges landing or approach fees anyhow.

G

[youngskywalker]

Yeah, but they usually find other ways to fleece money out of you...Anyway you look at it, it's gonna hurt the piggy bank (oops, i dont think i can mention piggy banks anymore incase i offend any other un-named religions...:} )

[silverknapper]

If they say it includes all landings and approaches then take it as read you won't have any extras.
Your £11k example I assume is Leeds, as you stated earlier. I went there and the whole course was spot on the quote. I didn't pay any approach charges, or 170A fees, or hire for test. Just the CAA fee and £11k to LFS.

Clowns

I agree that lift to land plus 10 is very fair. However I think 15 is a bit much. I timed it on several occasions and even at a busy field like Leeds we were airborne within 5 mins of going off chocks. Obviously it takes longer the first few trips. My point was that at some fields such as Perth, when you land you are on blocks within a minute and a half, and never spend 10 mins waiting for clearance or setting up navaids (there are only a few routes). When you are looking at £5.50 a minute that can quickly add up. It is a genuine grumble I have heard from several folk who have learned at Perth.

[Frank Furillo]

Hi Pipergirl
Little extra's, well as one who finished his IR last week (First time pass), here's my two pence worth.
I took my CPL and MEP in Florida. This is cheaper than the UK and, for most of the time, the weather is better. This enables you to finish in a quicker time than in England. I was paying under $300 for 1 hour Multi Engine Training, the sim in UK cost £160 per hour for IR!!!!!
However you are better off doing your IR over here, why?
Well for a start you have to take your inital IR test in a JAA country. Our airspace and R/T is different and can take a bit of time to get used to.
My IR included Landing Fee's at our Home Base, so be prepared to pay for approaches at other airfields. I also had to pay for the hire of the Aircraft on Test. The charging was take off to landing plus point two (12 mins). This, I found was fair as from start up to take off alone can take 20 minutes or more, if you do all your checks correctly without rushing. I would recomend both the schools I used for my CPL/ME and IR and you are welcome to contact me regarding them.
Yours
FF

[willby]

Hi Pipergirl,
Have you given up on PTC Waterford?

[pipergirl]

thanks for the replies
knapper-
was just using afigure off the top of my head and the 11k one was just a co-incidence...thanks for the feedback anyway :)

Nah,
I haven't given up on PTC, it's still in the running. sure i'm going to pop down to them and give the place the once over in the next few weeks.
Am just looking at all the options at the mo...and my god there are a lot of options-let's hope I choose the right one!:O

[Boeing737]

What about FTE in Jerez?they offer a modular cpl/ir.

[pipergirl]

FTE is the place that I thought would be the best place to go, but I heard that they just don't give equal weight of importance to modular students as opposed to integrated-so that put me off slightly. I'm not saying that is true, but it is what I heard.
But to be fair, their Multi IR course price is very good value.
Then again the niggle of whethr I should do some part of my training in the UK starts to creep in as well!!!

I have a list as long as my arm of possible schools for the Multi IR and I think the only way for me to make the choice is to visit them and speak to ex-students.

The schools that I am considering (off the top of my head) are
Aeros
Airways
BCFT
Bristol
Stapleford
PTC in Waterford
FTE in Jerez

[portsharbourflyer]

PTC Waterford, why not also consider PTC Bournemouth aswell.

[Send Clowns]

Obviously it has to be BCFT, Pipergirl, if only because I work there :}

Knapper

That's a bit sharpish for all the checks on a twin, ready for an IFR flight! Including a taxi at fast walking pace (mostly between 2 and 4 minutes), run up on 2 engines (another 2 minutes once you are familiar) and checking 2 VOR/ILSs, a DME and an ADF (another 2 minutes) you are beyond 5 minutes even without taking down a clearance, waiting for traffic to land or depart ahead or doing a long list of pre-takeoff checks! I have occasionally been 25 minutes with the last 10 just waiting for clearance, although usually only because Southampton as a problem. Hence the need not to charge for that bit!

5 minutes for an air taxi pilot. 10 or 15 for an IR student or certainly an Exam callsign! Time yourself, you'll find I'm about right.

[silverknapper]

Really can't be bothered nit picking about minutes but:
My example was perth. Taxi time = 1 minute. No holding.
Obviously I do my run ups quicker than you, and instrument checks have never taken me 2 minutes. Five Mins total is reasonable, which is what Perth students used to take. Until the school clicked they could charge for 10 and did so.
My caveat of a quiet field still stands, and I didn't say it applied to a busy field.

Piper

Your list looks good. You won't really pick a bad one from that list. Things change but when I last did thorough research the ones on your list which really stood out were Bristol and Aeros. Still haven't heard a bad word about them.

[willby]

Unfortunately for someone living in Ireland the Sterling/Euro rate is a big disincentive when it comes to considering a UK FTO
Willby

[razzele]

hi there,

I have noticed that Cleveland flying school have just got approval for an ME IR course., and the price lloks very very reasonable from the outside.

The only downside is that it is at Teeside airport!!

good luck its a tough choice thats for sure

[lookoutbelow]

Hi Pipergirl,

If it were me doing my ME IR again I would go back to AFT at Exeter without doubt. It is well, well worth considering for the following reasons:

All ex military/civil instructors (ex Harrier joc's, creamy military instructors, TRI/TRE's with the airlines) All have 000's of hours, most have stopped counting infact! and all very very friendly.

A very competative all inclusive price (price quoted is what you actually pay upon completion of th course normally, how many other schools do that?). Price includes VAT, Taxi time, Approaches, Landings, Hire for the tests (regardless of length), All required equipment, plates, any groundschool, even parking at the airport and unlimited tea and coffee!!

Specialist school only doing modular ME IR's and CPL's. No Integrated v Modular problem!

Good equipment (BE76'), engineers on the airfield and a new FNPT2 SIM on site.

Exeter, small friendly airport but busy enpough to be a realistic training environment for IR training. Cheap local accommodation readily available especially out of the holiday seasson. Excellent part of the UK.

Many of the students attending the courses are ex-military. My view was that if the school is good enough for ex-Red arrows pilots and ex-typhoon guys then it is good enough for little old me! Also the stories you hear in the coffee room I would say are a little more interesting than at many other flying schools/clubs I have visited before.

Only downside I can think of is that the school building doesn't have any toilets you use the terminal's toilets which if you are bursting after a 2.5 Hr tense IFR exam flight seems like a long walk!! It isn't really though only about 2 mins away!

Just one for you to consider adding to your list perhaps.

Good luck.

Lookoutbelow

[Boeing737]

Then again the niggle of whethr I should do some part of my training in the UK starts to creep in as well!!!

where did you do your ppl + atpl?
regards

[pipergirl]

did my ppl in florida and have a caa ppl and did my atpls with Bristol...
just to let u know, I am doing my licence through the UK system and thought that maybe I should do some part of my training in UK airspace at some point!

[Send Clowns]

Silver

I was taught on my instrument rating by some excellent instructors, and have done retraining with my current employer; it is impossible to do the thorough instrument checks I have been taught within 2 minutes. At the very least it takes 10 seconds to listen to each navaid's ident for 2 VOR/ILS, a bit longer for ADF, and maybe over 30 seconds for the DME (checked feeding from NAV1 and NAV2 that is about 40 seconds to over a minute itself!). That's nearly 2 minutes just listening to idents, then confirming the tuning (or here retuning for the SAM, which cannot be received on the ground to check the kit) and selected bearing on the VORs for the first use once airborne.

Runups also take a finite time, if done thoroughly and correctly one minute per engine is a minimum. In operations they can be run up together more quickly, and I have been shown how, but in training and for test that would not in my experience be normal or, in my opinion, sensible. I cannot imagine you were taught anything but separate runups.

Whatever school you attended at Perth is a competitor of ours, I carry no flag for them. I am however an instructor, albeit only for PPL, and am very concerned that in training checks are completed thoroughly and carefully, and 10 minutes I would say is a minimum for training. I know I can get airborne in 5 from a quiet airfield, but only if I'm in a hurry and miss out the navaid checks and do the rest as quickly as possible, when I am very current and not under training. There is an saying I learnt about training when I was at Dartmouth - these are the standards from which we will fall. It means that although we will not keep those high standards we have to know them so we know how to achieve equivalent quality, and to return to them when it is needed.

It does not always seem like 10 minutes, but I bet you were not off before that on your trips for IR training.