Great Western PA31's embracing westerly's

[havachat]

Just wondered if anyone else had noticed the Great Western Aviation rig runners punching into a good 30kts of westerly out of Brisbane most mornings whilst maintaining "Wun Zero Thowzand"? Perhaps just me but it seems like a tough way to make money on a charter... (given that westerly winds in general get stronger with ALT) But then again, the view at 6000' just isn't the same, and God forbid the view at 4000' and the tailwind one could experience.

[HEALY]

So thats where it ended up

[swh]

HEALY,

Two companies ...

GREAT WESTERN AVIATION PTY LTD Locality of Registered Office York WA 6302 Status ** UNDER EXTERNAL ADMINISTRATION and/or CONTROLLER APPOINTED **

and

GREAT WESTERN AVIATION PTY. LTD. Locality of Registered Office Chermside QLD 4032 Status Registered

The bottom one is still operating, unlike the one out of Perth.

:ok:

[megle2]

No I haven't.
They seem to be at the appropiate levels on the day.
Sorry to disappoint you.

[outback satellite]

Yeap I've also heard this and seems strange to 'plan' to fly into 30+ kts of H/W but you forget some drivers like to day dream by getting as close to FL's as they can. I'm sorry observer but your a peanut!!

Unless you have an uncontrollable twitch in your hands I find very very smooth (and cool) at 7am and even more during winter...

From my experience flying miners in north west queensland, vomit is not something they do as they are very freq. flyers. Maybe the over powering smell of after shave is upsetting their stomachs!

and having to hand fly IFR charter isn't there something about that in the regs???

cheers

[flywatcher]

brisbane peanut - yes you are!

brisbane observer - sorry, you are the peanut!

[havachat]

Megle2 – I’ll tell you an interesting story about the intelligence of the some of the level selections I’ve seen. Friday of last week when one of the PA-31’s was inbound to Roma on descent from 10,000, he was asked on the CTAF what kind of winds he had – his reply “ummm, as per my flight plan and as per the forecast, about 250/30 maybe a bit stronger” Hmmm, its been a while but I think the average track from BN – ROMA is something like 270M, now I don’t have a whiz wheel handy but that has to be about 28kts headwind surely… That same day one of the bank runners was operating between 2,500 and 4,500 on his way to the dreaded Charleville, his winds were 110/20, by account it was not only smooth, but the autopilot doing the job let him read a book… (Perhaps a happy-medium could work, say 6000’, or maybe when it is early get down low and avoid the winds, then maybe as the temp goes up and the bumps kick in, and your left hand gets worn out or the blisters peel, start a climb…. It’s called making a charter economical and profitable… Something the drivers up North like the “outback satellite” could teach you about. :8

Brisbane Observer - “3 hour legs the navajo is quite nice at 10” perhaps if you adopted a level with less than thirty kts on the nostrils you could shave the Brisbane – Charleville leg to 2.5hrs… Just a thought… And I promise ya, navajo’s can be nice for ya at other levels too, the radio calls are just nowhere near as good!! You seem to be very concerned about those dangerous PPL drivers too – I reckon you should avoid CTAF’s in addition to the lower levels, because them folk seem to converge there and most accidents happen around airfields and not in the cruise I hear. (CAVOK Class C flying may be the safest option for ya!!)

Outback, you got it right, it’s a peanut farm!

[outback satellite]

Brisbane ob. let me tell you what you say that is stupid. For one like havachat rightly pointed out, what is so hard about changing levels??

And since we both agree your a peanut you won't mind me telling YA that if you actually had bothered leaving the comfort of brisbane and mummy and daddy's house you would have learnt a thing or two about flying charter!!

You must be think because, as I said I agree with you that if its a H/W or bumps with pax you would pick passenger comfort. As for flying into known strong (30kts) headwinds WHILE it is smooth is RUBBISH.

I can understand why this companies pilots might want to sit at 10ton, as hava pointed out getting those extra .5hrs in the log because they all have to fight each other for hours instead getting a proper multi job!

Not sure what it is but i feel like a sandwich i might have a peanut butter one.

[havachat]

Observer, you are 100% on the mark, money is not everything! However, it is the reason that the PA-31’s are taking to the sky at all, it is the reason they are in the condition they are and the reason you hunt the smooth air to preserve your “flying hand” whilst your other stumbles to the dash to fondle the old pilot-3 (I don’t live under a rock old chum). If you care to double glance at the use of my English language you may notice that the references to CTAF’s and low level ops are in response to your apparent fear of PPL drivers and low level. Check it out old chop!! Another thing that may widen your eyes is the fact that in the early hours of the day, it is often not bumpy at all at low level, even 100AGL…. Go and have a little look!! And to help with your pax brief, ask them if they would mind flying a little lower, it’s a great view and it will have them out of your fam bangle flying tube sooner, see what they say coffee man!! You are on the money in the afternoon though, it is bumpy – 10points to the smart driver!!

Economics is everything in flying, you must remember that fella, or the closest you will get to the pointed end of anything good will be riding your push bike past the end of 19 as a big jet rotates.

As for my wearing of the bars, 4 is a warm up for me – I don’t just put them on in the car, I wear them to the shops on my day off! Its fun!! Ask outback observer, it’s the rage up north…
:ok:

[Capt Claret]

30 kts on the nose! Wow, that's a good day for me quite often. :}

[helijet]

I find it disappointing that whenever a topic of debate arises, that many of you revert to insults against fellow pilots. Aren't we all apart of the same "brotherhood" so to speak. Offering your opinion on various threads shouldn't open you up for the negative criticism that seems rife amongst this forum.
If someone has a better way of doing things why not offer the advice in a less confrontational manner, so that the recipient may wish to take said advice onboard.
If we all worked together as a group rather than beating up on each other, perhaps that would take us one step closer to stopping the rot that is well and truely killing this industry and conditions for all pilots from the bare commercial to the airline capt.

[havachat]

Things are starting to warm up a little…

Observer, you are proving to be on the ball from time to time, I stand corrected – you are the observer and the outback man is the satellite.

Beyond ‘whilst’ I was referring to the calibre of the GPS installations in the aircraft. And yes, I have seen the aircraft in ‘all’ their glory. And the statement as to my not living under rock was clearly in reference to that and the fact that I do know a thing or two about both the GWA operation and the aircraft and the flying habits of the Pilots. Think about your words and assurances of PAX comfort and being the good pilot. Hmmm, if the plane is s**t as you put it and the Pilots are pushed to the limit, are the Pilots really doing the best for the coffee sippers in the rows behind. Now, if one looks at the ‘bank run’ operation between BN – CV daily and the fact that I know of not one account of them flying at 10,000 may indicate the nature of the prevailing winds, since as you also previously recognised time is critical to them. One must wonder what would drive them to endless beating though at low levels if it is in fact what they do… Or are they maximising efficiency given the conditions of the day. Though it may seem a strange concept, the bank runners I know put the comfort of their a*se as number one whilst making the job profitable. For your sake and mine, I’m hoping those tight-bum PPL pilots that don’t make radio calls don’t realise that you use less fuel if you cruise a little higher at levels like 9500…. That would make them close!!
:ugh:

[iceblock]

Well this is really getting out of hand!!

There are too many variables to this discussion for any one to come up with one defining arguement that will satisfy all criteria, and keep everyone happy. Can't we just accept that there is more than one way to skin a cat and some days low is best and other days high is best. Personally I wouldn't base my level selection on the anticipation of VFR traffic. It would be on things I could assess and justify my decision on such as prevailing winds, turbulence, fuel, company preference etc.. More and more I find the last criteria the critical one. After all it is their train set and they will operate it however they please so long as it's within the boundaries of the regs.

And remember the most important thing is not what level you fly but whether your pay arrives in your bank account on payday!!!

[OpsNormal]

Clarrie wrote:
30 kts on the nose! Wow, that's a good day for me quite often. :}

Tease....;)

[Bevan666]

You all forgot the obvious..

Maybe the drivers are being paid by the hour.

Bevan..

[havachat]

Nup by the day....

Confused...?

[iceblock]

If it's pay by the hour, fly with the dunlops down, no need to rely on something so fickle as wind...

[Capt Claret]

They'd be pretty p!ss poor pilots if they chose their cruise level based on some rantings on PPRuNe! :ugh:

[ozy fly]

Old Capt Claret, they would probably be even more simple minded if they kept flying around at ten whilst we folk do the same routes at lower levels and over-take them. (Peanut worthy). You Peanut!

Bottoms up to u Capt

[Will See]

Seems someone has given me the wrong info! I was led to believe the selection of "wun zero thowsaaand" ,was to enable the other boggies gathered around the VHF scanners at AF flying schools to hear the position reports for as long as possible. :yuk:

I guess "one zero thowsand" would sound impressive to all your mates and students flying around elsewhere. "Hey Ron, did you hear *** climbing to 10 thou the other day? Yeah that was me!" :ok:

[havachat]

Well observer, faithful or otherwise make no mistake you are a peanut. I think the commercial aspect between the two operations is rather similar, like it or not. The pilots are there to make money for the company and themselves in both bank running and rig runs. It is business. A minute saved on a circuit entry and one saved enroute is a good thing - they seem to have it down pat. Clearly the boys climb high on the way home CV-ROM because that is where the westerly’s are blowing, ie, up the freckle. I think you will find that they go VFR because there is often an absence of cloud and they can live without the radio work, in any case it’s up to them. I know who I would pick to fly my charters… I’m guessing they don’t share the same fear of the VFR warriors as you do, or perhaps that makes them one…

[ozy fly]

Observer, Peanut - Both are operating aircraft to make a dollar! Therefore, everyone is working for the same goal. GWA are operating on fixed charter which makes it worse, time is literally money lost to them.

Back to the original issue, these blokes need to make the operation efficient and as quick as possible otherwise I wish them luck running canoe tours up the Brisbane River from Brookfield to Southbank.

[Little Rat Cat]

I am assuming GWA don't have a female Pilot! Perfect solution to fix the problem I think!

[megle2]

It was mentioned that they should get a real job. Could you expand on this as the low time pilots chasing those early twin hours need help. They could then withdraw their GWA cv's.

The past GWA pilots seem to have done pretty well with career advancement.

I can recall the bank runners on the CV route climbing to flight levels in their Seneca 2's. The present runners are doing a better job but there is always room for improvement.

Helijet, nice post but doomed to failure with some of these posts.

[Lodown]

30kt headwinds? That's nuffin!!!

When I was a lad flying from Brisbane to Roma, the headwinds were so strong, I'd climb to FL 350 in my VFR Cherokee and head east. I'd still get to Roma faster than if I flew west.

[cookthecrock]

havachat,
are you still pissed about Saturday!!:(

[havachat]

Cookthecrock....

What happened on Saturday? I'm confused..... I did hit the piss on saturday if that is what you mean, but I was actually happy about that... Sunday was more my day of sorrow and pain.

[havachat]

Observer,

In reference to what you have suggested to speak to your boss about and I quote "would you prefer your pilots to sit in turb all day or climb to 10 grand" I think you best refer to the very first entry in the discussion ie what I asked, and for you I quote "Just wondered if anyone else had noticed the Great Western Aviation rig runners punching into a good 30kts of westerly out of Brisbane most mornings whilst maintaining "Wun Zero Thowzand"? ".....

The point was that in the mornings there may be benifit in attempting to try and fly a little lower and shave a few minutes off the time. I think if you care to glance at the remainder of the reply's you may find that no one wants you to break your wings off in the bumps or get your bars coated in spew, simply work at doing the job better than you did it yesterday. Like it or not, quoted or otherwise, if you do a charter and you come in under the quoted time you make money for nothing.... Save 0.2 on every flight out and back and you will find that perhaps the miserable $100 saved each day will permit the installation of a 20yo second hand century-3 autopilot that works... then you can go back to the easy roads and flying high.... Maybe you should call your boss up and suggest that... I think his number is (38604444) . Maybe dont push the pilot-3 thing at the same time though. Peanut!

[havachat]

Cookthecrock....


What did you work out peanut? What is this saturday crap..?

[wateroff]

Boys Boys Boys, a little sanity here please - flick on the A/C and climb to 200.
Breath in ............and out................

All have valid points and ideas.

[185skywagon]

Brisbane Obs,
so why risk your a** at 4 and get hit by a dodgy ppl holder trying to save money by pretending not to be in the air and make no radio calls at MBZ's.
I would know more dodgy CPL's than PPL's.
BTW, Havachat actually does work, and espouses some of the finer points of true "Commercial Operation", a field that does not seem to be taught anymore.
very very smooth at 7am you reckon, out near charleville. Very interesting.
Having been here for 20 years, almost always smooth at 7am, except when the odd cold front comes through.

185.

[185skywagon]

Also, not sure what you would know about commercial charter operations given you dont really conduct any. I wouldnt say that baiting would have any similarities so I dont understand your apparent knowledge.


Let's see, Commercial charter operations, mmmm.
Well yes, I have done a little bit, comprising Tours, low level survey, straight out charter, freight. Just because we fly VFR singles, it does not mean we don't have to consider comfort and economics.

It has always been impressed on me when I was a green CPL(1993), that you needed to operate in such a way as to ensure pax comfort, and save the operator as much money/time as you could safely manage. I guess it is all about thinking ahead.

Just a note on the strong westerlies: Because we don't have much in the way of high mountains out this way, it is not very common to get mechanical turbulence above a couple of thou.
you do get shear between different winds at different levels, for sure. What i am saying is that it is quite likely that you will find a lower level that will be smooth with less headwind, as the westerlies tend to increase with height, which is what I think Havachat is alluding to.

Nothing intended to offend from this end, however, you would do well to never under-estimate what people do or have done in their time.

185

[plop]

Interesting. I have watched this develop and I have to say that having flown for many years in the areas mentioned, I can only say this:- To deliberately and unnecessarily plan to climb into a significantly increasing headwind in a little piston shows poor understanding or care of the fiscal outcomes for the employer.

Time is money, end of story. More so now than ever. Obviously, passenger safety and comfort are paramount, but, the presented arguments about turbulence, traffic etc, whilst intended to be compelling and dripping of airmanship, are thin in the reality of what I have witnessed with this operation.

I have closely watched this operator for many years. I have also spoken to a great many of the pilots over the years. Compelling to say the least. It has given me a good practical and sad understanding of the operation .

Previous threads have covered the operator well and provide an interesting insight.

brisbane observer, I found your comments to and about 185skywagon to be on the nose. As you said earlier '' Lets FOCUS and reread all the posts and decifer some worth from the argument. '' I have and frankly they dont reflect well on your calibre.

Maybe Havachat and all may end up saving this operator a buck or two with their observations, but for this writer ,I will have dry eyes when I raise a glass to the eventual demise of this particular chapter in Queensland aviation, Amen .