Mass Resignation from KA

[singletrackbullit]

Heard the other day from several sources, that due to the great rise in property prices in the last year, that 40 or so pilots from KA are going to take the money and RUN. Fed up with miss-management and aweful rosters, they have had enough...

Bout time!!

[cpdude]

Why, you looking for a job?

If you know anything about aviation in HK or Asia for that matter, it won't make the slightest difference to management.:(

[Follow the Follow Me]

I don't think the number is 40. Six to eight have interviews with Singapore Airlines and a few more paying lip service. A number of aviators have stormed upstairs threatening resignation, only to look ridiculous to themselves and their colleagues when they quickly rescind.

[AnQrKa]

Money talks. Property in HKG has gone up but even so, the KA gig is still a good deal financially and very difficult to top.

Crap rostering. Crap training – especially when it comes to the sink or swim approach of providing no assistance to command trainees. Low tech flight operations that make some regional carriers look good. Rudderless ship syndrome – where is the management. These are some issues that tempt people to leave and result in rock bottom morale but as long as ransom is being paid, very few will leave.

Now as for customers abandoning KA, that’s a different story.

[Flap 5]

Every KA pilot who has been treated badly has a story to tell. What I find so interesting is that KA management are prepared to lose pilots when flying in China has quite a large requirement for local knowledge. To be prepared to lose pilots who have some considerable experience in flying in China is short sighted and irresponsible.

[BlueEagle]

"especially when it comes to the sink or swim approach of providing no assistance to command trainees".

An initial part of command assessment is establishing if the individual has the qualities you are looking for. In very large enterprises this is a small problem as they have both time and resources to work their whey through this situation and "deferred success" can still be addressed within the same budget.

In smaller organisations , where you have both time and budget constraints, you have less time to manoeuvre and so set standards that you hope will ensure that those selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'.

Command Training then starts after the individual has shown themselves ready for Command. Command ability cannot be taught in any kind of worthwhile command course, you cannot be taught to 'Command', you can be taught how you can best direct your innate command ability.

[Feather Boa]

Slightly off topic, BUT...
I see in todays SCMP, Stanley Hui (CEO) is coming up with more reasons for Dragonair's poor performance.
Admittedly Dragon has had a tough Summer, with ATC delays in PVG, rotten Wx and high fuel prices to name a few, but why will he not accept that he is runnng a company that has the infrastructure in place to take advantage of the huge potential in F E Asia, and yet we are wet leasing aircraft to other companies because we have surplus planes and crews!!!!!!!!!!!
Why are we not using these to develop our own routes... As I've said before, where is the initiative and leadership.
Fx

[AnQrKa]

Blue Eagle – you said “An initial part of command assessment is establishing if the individual has the qualities you are looking for”

In KA’s case, PCE (pre command evaluation) and PCW (pre command workshop) has already taken care of assessing a candidates command ability prior to undertaking command training.

You also said “selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'”
In KA, there is no second hit. A single bad day in the sim at the end of an expensive and time consuming command course will result in being sin binned for 12 months. No second chances.

Despite the fact that KA employs generally very experienced pilots they still have an appalling failure rate that should embarrass the checking and training staff no end. But they appear to view such a failure rate as a success – the more that fail the better the system is.

[Oasis]

You would think a company like KA would have enough of an idea how you would fare as a captain, just by looking at your training and recurrent history.
KA isn't the only airline in Hong Kong that likes to train their prospective captains this way... But it's getting better.

[Karunch]

Just a small point Fx Boa, Ka may have the equipment but they don't have the human infrastructure required to take advantage of the regional potential. While accountants run around working out how to save $20 here & there, no one looks at market opportunities. Replacing the accountants with experienced marketing/ buisness professionals would be a step in the right direction. The daily stuff ups from the Ioc are comical. Its a little frightening if our Ceo really believes its simply Wx & Atc upsetting the bottom line. Having both flight & cabin crew actively working against the airline & ops staff with no training (but very impressive computer screens) surely contributes.

Unfortunately CA flying is just an easy way out as the work came to Ka, 2 year wet leases suggest there is no master plan.

[smilie]

KA is a stepping stone, but unfortunately does not offer a sustainable lifestyle for families. Higher level management arrogance and insensitivity doesn't help either.

Good luck to those who aren't financially conscripted and can leave.

Blue Eagle, I am saddened to hear you believe that Command cannot be taught.

[BlueEagle]

I believe the innate ability to command can't be taught, but obviously command technique can.

[Slapshot]

The problems listed here are valid and accurate.

Housing is expensive, with allowances not keeping pace, an adversarial attitude in Mgmt and training, no "coaching" or support for the Command Candidate - one strike and you're out is the rule. An unwillingness to embrace the knowledge that is built up in the senior Pilot group and use it to the company's advantage. The "rule through fear and intimidation" is more in keeping with a 1970's era British Coal mine than an Airline operating in one of the more trying environments and airspace...

In short the lack of "People Skills" - a command trait I'm sure Blue Eagle will recognize - is sadly lacking in all area's of Mgmt.

In my time at KA I witnessed this and found Mgmt wanting in every respect...

[KAFO]

Who do you think you are trying to start a mud slinging match about my company, it's management and our rosters!!

I would bet that you don't know anything about all of the above.

You're either a private pilot OR Dragonair knocked you back!!:*

[Fly747]

Well said FO, he registered just to start this thread and has been given quite enough bandwidth. Somethings need sorting out but the money rolls in OK; I just does me job and goes home.

[Midnight Oil]

It is true that KA seems to be seriously lacking direction from management at the moment. At a time when all other airlines in the region are expanding, the company seems to be struggling to come up fresh ideas beyond increasing the frequency to Beijing and Shanghai. Communication from above is nonexistent and the perception amongst staff is that the company is a rudderless ship. Local staff are overworked, overstressed and are bailing out in droves.

However, having said that, you have to realise that many of the posters here have their own axes to grind and are less than objective. For example, perhaps some of the negative posters above can tell us whether they have ever attempted a command course at KA, and how it went…

[@KA]

Hi,

Just registered to give my 2 cents.
Morale is at an all time low. not only in flt ops, but the whole company. The catch phrase" if you do not like it you can go" can be heard on every level in KA house.

See KAFO reply, the biggest problem is rostering/scheduling and mgmt inability to correct the situation.
even when managers want to discuss this problem they get nowhere!!

KA

[A4G]

One of the biggest sources of frustration for KA pilots is the crap rostering. And a solution to this has been created by the hard work of the DPA. Those involved in the trial have all said that it's a big improvement. Sadly this does not have support from some senior pilots who feel that they should have better rosters than the rest because they have been at KA longer! If we can get this implemented then our lifestyles will improve dramatically and therefore sickleave will be greatly reduced. For some reason management do not want us to have a more efficient roster even though it would cost the company nothing and give more flexibility with the schedule! This beligerent attitude has had a devistating effect on morale.
One of the attributes of good leadership is to be able to listen to the troops complaints and take action if required. Sadly we don't have good leadership.
I believe that most line pilots are seriously fatigued & have to take sick days in order to recover. Flying into China is by no means a straight forward proposition & the company should be proud of the job that the pilots are doing. Instead our COS are continually attacked and we are ruled with fear & intimidation.
I think management would be very surprised at how many pilots are seriously starting to look elsewhere.

[gliderboy]

KA is a rudderless barge. I have seen the work being done to try and fix things. The KA response is: "it ain't broke!" you can all summise and hypothesize that everything is OK but it is NOT. Management (apart from the tont meister) are ineffective and are not worthy of respect

[AnQrKa]

Midnight oil – in response to your question – I have not been through the KA command course – my anger towards command training is based on discussion with close friends who have done the course, some passed, a few failed. It is also based on my experience from doing sim training and proficiency checks and gaining an understanding of how the “KA” minds works. It worries me.

KAFO – You accuse a poster of slinging mud in reference to comments regarding our rostering. Last month I was rostered for two 3 day trips back to back giving me under 10 hours stick time over 6 days – a little more than 1.5 hours per day. This is not mud being flung, these are facts.

KA is being managed on a daily basis only as ownership and direction issues are being nutted out behind closed doors, or to put it more bluntly, in a manner that “is none of your business”, as told to our boss recently by a board member.

[Arrowhead]

Time to command in Air Macau is only about 2-3 years now, and cost of living is much lower.

Sadly, I suspect the pay is too (approx GBP40k net for experienced FO and GBP50k-70k net for captains). And our housing allowance hasnt kept pace either.

But although we moan about mgmt, at least the rostering is generally okay....

[Lan Kwai Wanchai]

KA is absolute CHAOS !!! :}

The guys & gals at the rock face are working themselves into the ground....
Exhausted, unrecognised, threatened and degraded they toil away daily with rising sickness and stress rates!! The professional approach of Cabin Crew & Pilots at KA is astounding in very:mad: difficult conditions and the daily China environment !

A big hand to everyone:ok: for maintaining the safety & standards as the s**t flows down from up on high...........:}

[HIALS]

Now that the rumoured Frankfurt wet-lease for Air China is off - one has to ask, what is the plan?

We aren't going to Sydney, or Seoul, or Manila - but we are getting new aircraft all the time. What are they going to do? Trawl backwards and forwards to KHH?

In summary, there appears to be no plan for KA. Sure, we can keep doing what we do now (trawl backwards and forwards to KHH) but that's hardly the hallmark of a successful long term strategy.

It seems to the staff (witness all the previous posts here) that the Company is going nowhere.

The ETOPS project has been for nought.

Delays caused by maintenance seem more common than in years gone by.

Morale (both cockpit and cabin crew) is truly awful. Loyalty to the Company has dissolved to near zero. Poor rosters and the aching problem of an autocratic, remote, out-of-touch and disinterested flight ops management are the corrosive cause.

I am not surprised that many are talking about leaving. I would not recommend that anyone join now. The future is too uncertain and there are too many warning signals now. This company is drifting toward demise.

Or else - it's about to be quietly absorbed into Cathay and/or Air China. Afterall, everything we do these days is for them and nothing we do is for us.

[7FF]

Why would CX want to absorb KA?
Best let it implode and pick up selected bits like the 744's.:ok:

[boocs]

Handing back some leased aircraft next year seems as though they know what's going on....... doesn't it......??

I mean at a time when ALL other airlines in the region are either rapidly expanding or desperate for any aircraft they can get their hands on, KA is sending aircraft back.

All makes sense to me :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Flying Bagel]

It isn't as much what KA management is not doing, but what the parent company is allowing them to do. A while back it seemed that all was well at KA, and that it was the place to be as the small company that could.

The hardline approach and tough expansion talk from just a couple of years ago has now all but evaporated. Those of Australian descent are surely not happy that the much hyped SYD flights are now mothballed for the forseeable future. This came about coincidentally after the CX/CA cooperation talks. Go figure.

I suppose then that the management themselves also have a problem of trying to keep themselves interested. So the crap does roll downhill. And it seems that a 'number' of KA's management and staff has defected, not to the other airline, but to the new local amusement park. Including some of those who used to work with your rosters...

The funny thing is, from what I've heard, life at that new local amusement park is even worse.

[smallwing]

I hear KA will be buying a new rudder by the end of this month, so hopefully things will start pointing the right way again.

As for the local theme park, I hear they are complaining about pay rostering and management, so what is the difference?

Not every manager knows how to manage so don't expect miracles to happen.

Guys getting command training would assuming have had previous command time as they enter the company with a substantial amount of hours. Sometimes the checkers can be unfair but it also depends on the checkee. No free lunch I'm afraid.

[Sidestickjockey]

BFB ....

Question : Did you pass the interview and going for round 2 ?

[Fly747]

I see MLO has resigned. Any story there?

[Lan Kwai Wanchai]

Well as he was the only decent bloke doing his job :ok:, it's highly likely that he is suffering from clinical exhaustion and knife wounds to the back, same as the line drivers :} ............

[Australia2]

Sad to see one of the good guys lost.

Oz2

[joebanana]

Resigned from management or KA? Don't know him that well, but always appears friendly and approachable when I've bumped into him.

[easyprison]

Guys,

Could you expand on a little more on why people are leaving dragon air. I have only heard good things about KA.

Also, with so many resignations where are people heading off to? Etihad? Emirates?

[Australia2]

Just from management.

[Follow the Follow Me]

Another resigned today for Virgin.

Now, if only more colonials and their antipodean sisters would move on, eh Australia 2.

[Australia2]

Follow me,

Thats a bit harsh mate - we're not that bad are we.

Oz2

[sizematters]

apparently the reason for all the turmoil is in preperation for the takeover by Cathay/air china which is due in January at which point the A330's and the freighters will join CX and the A320's will be retained by whats left of dragonair but as an LCC operating to China as a feeder for CX....................

have fun guys, should be an interesting bun fight !!!!

[gliderboy]

Nice wind up attempt Tim er I mean Marcus..woops I mean size matters

gliderboy

Every pilot in KA will be a widebody skipper within 3 years!! (sound familiar to anyone??)

[KAFO]

You are making yourself very visible. The line pilot's are right, you would sell your wife, mother to get ahead.

You are a loquacious and pretentious p!@#k and your people are all hoi polloi.:yuk:

[sizematters]

Nice wind up??? tim??? Marcus??? thank you for playing but no cigar................

see you in January when you join us here at CX

if your one of the lucky ones that is

[gliderboy]

Size.....you missed the joke if you didn't get the reference to those names my friend.

gliderboy

[Bucking Bronco]

From a totally outside perspective - and yes prepared to be flameed - KA seems to have trouble in retaining pilots. A couple of years ago it seemed like a good deal but the hours you guys work combined with the autocratic culture seems to have a detrimental effect.

Thus I hear annecdotally of people leaving for other carriers, ie UK guys coming back to Lo-Co's.

By the way, standing on the other side (wrt housing prices) you can't blame the company for external factors such as the housing market variances.

Cheers

BB

PS Yep I've just got in from the pub...:ok:

[Fly747]

Again a freighter service to Europe cancelled due crew shortage!
No need to say anymore.

[Slapshot]

"KA seems to have trouble in retaining pilots. A couple of years ago it seemed like a good deal but the hours you guys work combined with the autocratic culture seems to have a detrimental effect.

Thus I hear annecdotally of people leaving for other carriers, ie UK guys coming back to Lo-Co's."

That's one of the reason's why I left...

[Flap 5]

... and partly why I left too. :ugh:

[vikena]

Dragon can never be a happy place for pilots.

pilots come from too diverse a range of backgrounds , experience,
cultures and personal situations whom can never be totally represented by a DPA which does the best that it can in challenging local mangement comprised of inept managers at best all the way down to a plain clothes ex military dinosaur.

Unfortuneatly this problem seems to be the last of Dragons concerns at the moment

[nxmember]

Judging from the replies on this thread the command upgrade pass rate must be quite low in KA. What some of you need to realise is that the spoon feeding days of the Sabena, SAS, or Swiss and the like are all over. No one is going to take you by the hand and teach you how to be an airline captain. You have your 5000+ hrs experience and it is entirely up to you to demonstrate your command ability to the company.

There is no perfect job in Aviation and as far as I am concerned Dragon is still one of the best jobs around.

If you lot are not happy come back to Europe and join the likes of Thompson, Volare or whatever flying over 1000 hrs a year for about 3000 euros a month.

[the hidden]

The demise of Dragonair is an on going process, brought about by not one isolated factor, but a steady stream of incursions upon peoples daily ability to perform in their job. The erosion of the work force and its ideology is all too apparent. Airline accidents (and corporate ones) are not a product of one simple misplaced action, but a whole string of ill judged decisions resulting in a final tragic event.

The demise of Dragonair started in earnest about 3 years ago. Dragonair was originally a job for the good old boys, well-paid, low flying hours, and most importantly holding the company in a reasonably high esteem. Oh how a few mis guided placements and corporate ideologies can have irreversible effects.

Dragonair strives for leadership from its captains but is leaderless as a company. Flight operations demand a very high standard from its pilots, but a manager holding no formal managerial qualifications or interpersonal skills is at the helm. Dragonair training is based on a pilot having extensive knowledge of SOPs and significant proven ability, but has training managers who have significant violations of SOPs when, and if, they fly.Within the last year we have had two significant overspeeds from a training manager who was no doubt berating his trainee on some esoteric point of knowledge hidden deep in the FCOM. Another head of training has had two recent fainting episodes, resulting from him running the training department from his hospital bed for 6 months. How ridiculous.

But I still have not got to the meat and bones of the problems engulfing expatriate employees of Dragonair at the moment. Basically Dragonair have a loyal and committed pilot force. But they abuse this constantly. Dragonair plead they have not two pennies to rub together, but continue corporate wastage on a scale that would be criminal if it were not so comical. After the SARs episode 2 years ago, aircraft were ordered to expand Dragonair out of its niche into the region. The board 2 weeks ago decided that Sydney was not such a good idea and lets expand into err... China! So now we have ETOPS aircraft, with full IFE, operating 1h55min sectors to Shanghai 16 times per day. Ever heard of all your eggs in one basket?

I¡¯m sick of all the bull**** in KA. From constantly changing SOPs that suit the whims of the moment, to the constant bitching about our contracts. We have an anti personnel department, full of snide looks whenever you have a simple question of point about the confusion way your finances are handled. We have a CEO committed to the Cathay board, a GMO committed to the CEO and his bonus. We have an unlivable lifestyle, changing work patterns, an ops center that is in disarray and overnight patterns based on impossible expectations. We operate into cities with smoggy visibilities not more than 2000m for 6 months a year. Inhumane pollution levels in Hong Kong are affecting our kids and personal lives. How many guys have been divorced or separated in the last few years about their deteriorating lifestyles?

I could go on how our CEO said we were all family and asked us to donate a month¡¯s salary to help out during SARS. Thank you they said six months later, but we have some rather important expansion to do, so sorry, you aint getting it back. Yes I¡¯m a sucker a looser a fool and a retard who should just accept his lot or clear off home. But i'm not laying down just yet, thank you. Corporate ideologies change like markets and currencies. Its just can I waste my life waiting for the next up cycle?

[Flap 5]

That is lamentable. It would be laughable but for the fact that it is true. You didn't mention Manager Personnel. I think that person has done a lot to alienate the pilots. :ugh:

[mong`s]

More to add. to send back the # leased A/C it will cost us.
$us 7.5 mil each now that cost cutting

[Karunch]

Mong's, 7.5M to return a 10 year old 30,000+ hr A330- they're only worth 50M each now so 15% of the hull value seems a little excessive. Having said that I have no doubt that someone has probably recieved a bonus over this little cost cutting exercise. I suggest they shut the place down- that will really cut costs (& I'd like a bonus for the idea please).

As for the Personnel Manager, if her boss knew how much she really cost the company through the pilot group response to her 'cost cutting' exercises, she would promptly be out the door. An enterprise where accountants have risen well beyond their station in life. Cheers,

[Follow the Follow Me]

From where I sit, Sizematters, it is evident that non-core expansion will suit a Dragonair model under Cathay's wing. Sub-continent and Far East Asia being bandied about obviously.

Both companies are short of pilots, but relative to each groups numbers, Dragonair is well positioned for rapid career path leaving junior Cathay brethren floundering - relatively of course. Not that this will be much of a concern to all members of the divided Cathay pilot group.

This leads into why change or bemoan the command upgrade system? Does it not offer a degree of protectionism for the current KA group?

If, and we are talking a few years away yet, the unlikely scenario arises where junior Cathay pilots have access to KA Commands, the failure rate will be horrendous. With infrequency of sectors, no China exposure and the inexperienced background many of the ranks spawn from, only those with a good core set of skills will have likely success at first attempt.

Besides, there is nothing gained, despite nervous wind ups, in having an aligned or unified CX/KA pilot group. It will remain seperated! Despite the rantings of Cathay pilots.

[vikena]

Follow the follow me,

"NO CHINA EXPOSURE"

What a load of baw-locks

You're clearly from the school of " you've got to be an astronaut to fly in China"

Mate try a jumpseat on a daylight Europe flight.

Virtually RVSM everywhere, The Alps as always, max Xwinds regularly and lots of CAT2/3 this time of the year and plenty of pax problems.

And dont start getting all flapped out about Typhoons.I can assure you there's plenty of wx in Europe that you guys would name after a girl.

Mate you're living and operating in a microcosm of reality

To long in the pollution and humidity and now you're starting to beleive your own bullsh1t

[Lan Kwai Wanchai]

Enough of the unnecessary slanging matches !!!:}

Where is this so called MASS- RESIGNATION. I heard only 2 F/O's; both from the UK, one who never stopped whinging and another that was well behind the drag curve ! No Loss !!! :ok:

CX & KA look for the best they can find, logical no ? Depends what you percieve as your career path & the future of the 2 companies....

We must all appplaud the safety standards we maintain with the sub-standard leadership pervading so lets get on with doing the best we can in trying times !!

FLY SAFE !!!:O

[vikena]

FLAP 5

If you have to go back to 1993, 12 years , to find a difficult aspect of operating in China then that says it all.

Grow up and get with it

Vikena

[peanutz]

Lan Kwai Wanchai

To say one was behind the drag curve. Who do you think you are!! You are obviously another one who thinks you have the gift.
Its not rocket science and you dont need to be a rocket scientist to do it. So dont build yourself up by dragging others down.
The 2 guys have a heap of experience and were/are great to fly with.
In fact what a C... of a thing to say.
The KA system just F..Ks with some guys.
And as for the guy who whinges. Well who doesnt and at least he had the balls to do something about it. Full credit to him.
He has more credit than any one else who utters a negative word about KA.
'behind the drag curve' --- YOU D..K!!

[shaggin yoke]

Nice one peanutz. best post Ive read in ages. There is just so much arogant bull**** out there.

Nice one fellah

[AnQrKa]

Flap 5 – you typify the mentality that prevails in KA. MOVE ON – its not 1993 anymore. China is no different from any other third world country these days.

“The experienced KA captain recognised the chinese numbers” – so basically it was an understanding of Chinese that saved the day. Well, I know stuff all Chinese and have always passed my linecheck – I didn’t know it was a requirement to speak another language.

KA have re written the books on operating a glass jet that is not very demanding to fly into a country that was once tricky but is no longer.

PS – there is no mass exodus from KA despite the fact that its full of macho hero chest beating wankers.

[vikena]

Hear hear peanutz,

Flap5 and follow me are clearly listening to the TW and JC tongue sh1te

You fly into France and French controllers talk to french pilots in guess what language...French.This is approved ICAO practice.

So dont start getting all racist just because Chinese controllers speak Chinese.

What a pair of toss pots.

I'm embarrassed to be in the same profession as them

And how dare you presume that one pilot lacks ability or capability based on rumour

You are a cack head

[BlueEagle]

“The experienced KA captain recognised the Chinese numbers” – so basically it was an understanding of Chinese that saved the day. Well, I know stuff all Chinese and have always passed my linecheck – I didn’t know it was a requirement to speak another language.

followed by:

So don't start getting all racist just because Chinese controllers speak Chinese.

This is how wars start!:*

Nothing at all racist in that first statement, not even close.

Peanutz and Vikena Please make your points without getting into personal abuse and dragging in, quite disingenuously, the subject of racism.
This is a good thread with lots of interesting opinion from both sides, so let's just keep it like that please. Thanks. BE

[vikena]

No offence intended Blue Eagle

But sometimes stronger terms are required to make a point to people who don't have the benefit of having a broader more rounded experience base, yet are still prepared to wax lyrical as if they know it all.

I trust you understand

vikena

[Paranoid Parrot]

Vikena,

When you are in a hole stop digging! :hmm:

[petitfromage]

Dear dear me, what a load of infantile ranting.

Perhaps it was one of you 2 who lost the plot the other morning when Virgin 201 called the KA A320 a "mini-bus".

Bravo to the ATC'er who simply responded "Miaow".

Enough said.....time to lay of the whiskey before you kids post!

[Paranoid Parrot]

They just reckon they are big cheeses! :p

[BlueEagle]

OK, back to the thread topic or it gets closed, you can carry on your in fighting via email etc.

[notkahouse]

Hey Blue eagle

What happened to my post

[BlueEagle]

Probably didn't satisfy the non-abusive, in good taste, relevant and on topic criteria.

[notkahouse]

Blue Eagle

If dispersal of certain people related to Aviation in HK isnt relevant to Mass Resignation then I dont know what is.

I did complement British pilots and some Ozzie ones .

And i think that comment is good taste

So post my original submission for heaven's sake

notkahouse

[BlueEagle]

Try again notkahouse. This time keep it factual and leave out or re-word any opinion that could be construed by one group or another as abusive.
Banter and good humour are always appreciated but not thinly veiled side-swipes at other factions who post on PPRuNe too.

[Abbeville]

Back to the original posting.

Have 40 pilots resigned yet?

[notkahouse]

Blue Eagle,

I resent the abusive nature of albasari's post about training in Dragonair

Maybe if I re worded my opinion of how painful some pilots are to fly with you might have let my post stay

notkahouse

[BlueEagle]

Albashari88's post is not abusive to any particular other poster on this forum, just highly critical of the KA training system. It is now up to you and your colleagues to rebut his accusations if you believe them to be incorrect, just don't start hurling abuse at him, only what he says, play the argument not the player.

By all means go ahead and state how painful some pilots are to fly with, just try and keep it general so that individuals cannot be easily recognised from your post and don't get into racial issues.

[KaKruizer]

Unlike some of the people posting I have been through the KA command course and find myself a little bemused by some of the comments posted here.

First of all there was plenty of training (unassesed, no grading) which inlcuded Pre-command workshops, PCE LT, CT 2, Sim LOFTS midway through the course and if you should require it one additional block of line training is guarranteed at Ct 3 or Ct 4.

Before getting to the final sim check at CT 5 I had been taken through most major system scenarios, inlcuding some personal requests.

At some point you have to produce the goods and you are checked at Ct 5/6.

There are some carriers that have a command course which appears to be a box ticking exercise and providing you are in the Chief Pilots good books you get promoted, others have a marathon course which takes 6 months to complete.

In my opinion KA have found a good balance whilst coping with rapid expansion and maintaining a high standard of operation on the line. It has always been reassuring knowing that the guy or gal sitting in the left or right seat is not released to line unless they deserve to be there!

To me it is disturbing to see this anominous character assasination of a bunch of trainers who have been working like dogs over the last couple of years helping all of us get to grips with the Airbus and in many cases promoted to captains within 2-3 years of joining the company.

I am proud to have a command with Dragonair and found the guys conducting my training to be helpful and motivated.

Many of the comments on this thread are just totally B%ll S%#T, it is time for a bit of reality!

However if you want to discuss the HKG air pollution or apparent lack of direction the company seems to have lately, well that is another story...........

[Fly747]

True, no mass resignations yet but has anyone found out what Jade Cargo are offering, they've got a full page add in Flight for -400 drivers. They are a serious outfit with 6 x new 747-400 ERFs on order, joint venture LH and Shenzen airlines. Should give TW a run for his money when he tries to recruit for ours! Experienced Captains and FOs not easy to find. Indians offering more and more money too. Our classics now 2 crews short and one command course postponed cos not enough FOs. New FOs with experience reluctant to join the classic fleet cos now no progression forecast. I hear our 330s not crewed either with flights cancelled.
If we don't make the most of the next few months to improve and defend our package then we never will!

[Flap 5]

A330's not being crewed is a self inflicted injury for KA. :hmm:

[Peak Tram Driver]

This week Hainan bought 51%of CR Airways so that they have access to a HK AOC and the ultimately the HK/China market. They have many new aircraft on the way and plan to base 737 NG's in HK, and plan to take on Dragonair and CX in China.

So now is the time KA management to Act! Lets use our position and go forward and expand and have some direction instead of sitting in the doldrums!

I am heading up the Peak for a beer.....the Peak Tram Driver.

[notkahouse]

Expecting KA managment to be proactive in influencing the future of the airline is like a doctor expecting a constipated patient to be able to give a stool sample.

I'd love to know what specific commercial aviation mgment training those ex military fossils in KA have

The same offerings as the aforementioned patient I expect

[Flap 5]

I suspect the 'ex military fossils' are too busy keeping their noses clean with respect to the chinese element of management, specifically Manager Personnel and the COO. They have seen what happens to pilots who get on the wrong side of them. :hmm:

[Neptunus Rex]

notkahouse

How naive can you be? 'Military fossils' there may be, but in common with most airlines, commercial planning and decisions are made by...err... the CEO and the Commercial Department !!!

Have a good one.

Neppie :cool:

[peanutz]

To Ka Kruiser,
Once again I see another case of some who holds themselves on a pedastal because they have passed the KA command course.
Wake up. The problem is it doesnt help those that need it or it doesnt help those that have a bad day.
Its a simple job, requires judgement at times BUT does not require a physics degree.
I too have passed it. But I hate to see those that have been kicked in the guts for trying.
KK you probably just had a good day. And thats it. Just a good day. Remember where would you be if you had a bad day, or even a bad couple of minutes.
The problem I have is that once someone gets through they think the system is IT!!. Well its NOT!!
It stinks.

[KAFO]

Why are you so critical of the comments from KaKruizer?

As a fellow KA Captain should you not be congratulating him on his command?

I did not interpret his post as you did, he did not make himself out to be a space shuttle pilot at all. You are very harsh and I feel it is undeserving.

As an F/O I have not had my turn at command, however, from where I stand looking in without prejudice either way, the training department have made available training tools to help with the command training (which are available 24/7 to everyone) e.g the ECAM/FMGS trainers, vacbi computers etc. I have always found that the Training department Pilot's have an open door policy. Always. They have always made time to answer any questions, problems that have come up. There have been times when they have been very busy and still had time to discuss training issues. All you have to do is ask.

Why do you think people fail? Probably because they are not quite ready, but when they are I am sure they make good Captains just like yourself and all the ones that I have flown with.

Perhaps your estimation of the failure rate is far greater than the real figure. I think that you will be surprised just how low it really is.

Before you attack me, just re-read KaKruizers post again. He really was not grandstanding.

KAFO





:(

[peanutz]

KAFO
Yes you are right, too harsh.
KA KRUIZER I appologise.
I just feel that so many forget how lucky we were. There is alot of luck and unfortunately not much of a second chance for those who become victim of those few hours in the sim.

[notkahouse]

Hey Neptunus,

If you think that managementesques are not trained in a commercial or are supposed to be trained in a commercial backdrop then you are highly mistaken about your local flight ops department , if indeed you have one.

get with the picture loser

[KABogey]

I'm guessing that this might be the right place to ask for info regarding Jade Cargo? I've searched the Net but not found too much. Any good gen appreciated...

Have a look in the Far East, Asian & Indian forum, there is a thread there that gives considerable detail. Cheers, BE

[petitfromage]

No news on Jade im afraid but Emirates want to recruit a total of 390 FOs in 2006............perhaps the disgruntled might look towards the desert?

[KABogey]

perhaps the disgruntled might look towards the desert? Nothing like jumping out of the pot and into the kettle !!! And, it's not just FO's wanting out of KA.

[arryboy]

Yes it's true.............

KA today confirmed that F/O Mass Has indeed resigned !!!

perhaps we can close this thread now.......................

[Paranoid Parrot]

Nah! Let's keep it going. :p

So what's the latest update then?

[Fr8t M8te]

>So what's the latest update then?<

Truckloads of green paint heading into HAECO?

[chicken_or_fish]

LMFAO@arryboy

True about the middle east (EK). You think you guys are unhappy? Take a look at their threads!

Better the devil you know................??????

[Paranoid Parrot]

... more of a furry worm really - although it is meant to be a dragon. :p

[DrunkenAir]

It Looks like a worm with legs when you are drunk. (hic)

[Ya Zi]

So, 2005 has passed and how many resignations were there? About 8 by my reckoning. So in a company of about 450 pilots I would hardly refer to this as being 'mass' by any stretch.

This being a company which has never made a loss in it's 20 year history, never made anyone redundnt and has doubled in size in the last 3 years and still has significant aircraft orders.

Still, the original poster has got some attention - nearly 28,000 viewings at the last count. But instead of putting people off I suspect he has increased the flow of CVs into the office!

[gliderboy]

Ah I think you may be on to something Ya Zi.......

"never made a loss in it's 20 year history"
Pretty easy when you are in such a protected market and given routes by your old enemy (Cathay)

"never made anyone redundant"
2 things:
1. It manages to get rid of anyone who isn't toeing the party line
2. There are many people considered redundant IN KA: they work in management. (rumour has it to get promoted you need 2 alleged overspeeds).

"doubled in size in 3 years"......make it at least 5. And remember KA started in the same year as EK! Look at the size of their fleet compared to KA's.

Aircraft still on order : 3 A330's (with no confirmed destinations to fly) and Freighters that KA Pilots probably won't get to fly if senior management has their way.

YEP....the place to be.......2000m in Haze ...er pollution..er...mist

Has anyone seen that refuel panel....it was here a sec ago!!
:ooh:

[Flap 5]

Never made a loss in 20 years? They were losing hand over fist when they had the 737-200. Only a shipping and shoe magnate kept them from going under. Fortunately Airbus took the aircraft off their hands.

Never made anyone redundant? What about all the pilots they sacked on trumped up charges because a certain person took a disliking to them (Manager Personnel)? For example a pilot with an exemplary record being 'failed' in the simulator two goes running by a certain training captain (now retired from KA). How can a pilot be failed in the sim and continue to fly for another six months to be failed a second time? Another who the same training captain tried to fail but was not able to as the third pilot in the sim at the time was also a trainer and pointed out that the pilot in question had done well in the sim detail, but the company sacked anyway for no reason (legal in Hong Kong) - although there were 'rumours' of alleged house rent contract problems bringing the company into 'disrepute'. I could go on ...

[Flap 5]

Dragonair would never make anyone redundant in any case, they don't need to. The pilots' conditions of service require large redundancy payouts. If they can legally sack someone without reason and just pay the three months notice why would they? And they have done just that on a number of occasions, as I have shown in my last post. There are also many other examples, I have merely mentioned two. The other cases are very similar in nature.

[Kitsune]

It does seem that the only aircrew to moan more than CX are the Dragonair guys....

[gliderboy]

Kitsune

thats because KA have pommy management. (taught by the best):ok:

[Ya Zi]

Some of the KA guys do moan a lot. It seems they won't be happy anywhere. Perhaps they can go home to where the air is clearer and fly witchety bug eaters around the outback - or wherever it is they came from. (Sorry, perhaps a bit too specific about their nationality!)

[Grumble Joe]

Had to join and reply Ya Zi. Hear, hear, sensible post!:cool:

[Karunch]

And now the departure of the well connected and very competent COO. No doubt he has been extremely lonely on level 5 (hard to find competence up there). And it wasn't the lure of 'widgety bug smashers' either. Last one out .....

[SMOC]

Off topic: So whats happeneing with the -400SFs, who's going to crew them? KA arn't going to use Direct Entry are they?

[heimata]

...ohh,ohh, this will be interesting!!