Medals Retuned

[pzu]

From MOD press release

http://www.modoracle.com/?page=http://www.modoracle.com/news/detail.h2f?id=6834

Gist of story: Battle pf Britain pilot attending Memorial unveiling, loses medals (inc DFC)

Medals found and handed in by 'newstand vendor' Mr Hassan Najmi

Very commendable Mr Najmi :ok:, but what is even more praiseworthy (in these times) is the comment attributed to Mr Najmi;

"I am delighted he is to get them back. From seeing the unveiling on the news and the stories told, he has earned them and deserves to get them back. It is because of people like him that we have a good life today in Britain."

:ok: :ok:

PZULBA - Out of Africa

[African Tech Rep]

Thats true - but it goes for more than just life in Britian.

Some might not admit it but Europe owes them a lot as well

[G-CPTN]

As a Brit, I was only exposed to the British version of the history of WWII. During my ATC days (that's Air TRAINING Corps) I had been indoctrinated that the Russians were the ENEMY.
When I visited Dresden in 1989, I was shocked by the inscriptions claiming that the Russians had rescued the City from the evil faschists. When I returned to the UK I started reading (and accessing the Internet) I discovered the not inconsiderable part played by the Russians in bringing the War to an end.

I don't underestimate the part played by the Tommies (and I'm no Commie), but I now respect the Ruskies for their Eastern Front activities.

[punkalouver]

Yeah so respectable. Aside from the loss of 50 years of freedom, they sent all their captive to the gulag where 90% of them died and they raped the german women when they passed through. Ther is nothing wrong with the truth.

[JJflyer]

Ain't war he.ll

JJ

[Sunfish]

Punk, you are merely displaying your complete ignorance of history and your infantile prejudices for all to see.

I strongly suggest you read the excellent works of a Mr. Anthony Beavor such as "Stalingrad" and "The Battle Of Berlin" as well as Simon Sebag Montefiores' book "Stalin", before you start shooting off your mouth about the Russians and the Germans again.

[C130 Techie]

Sunfish

Quite right and they are excellent books as is Armageddon by Max Hastings.

It is always refreshing to see that there are sitll people in this world who care and have respect for other people. Whatever their creed or colour.

[Maple 01]

er Sunfish, Anthony Beevor backs up what Punk says, rape, mass deportations ('the passion of the East') 50 years of enforced communism, mass deaths amongst POWs
- were you reading some other book?


http://www.antonybeevor.com/Berlin/berlinmenu.htm

[Leftit2L8]

I thought the Yanks won WW2 single handedly !!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

I thought the Yanks won WW2 single handedly !!!

Yep, you're right.

And accroding to Hollywood they also captured the first Enigma machine 2 years before they even entered the war, thats how good they are.

[GeeRam]

_________________________________________________

quote

Punk, you are merely displaying your complete ignorance of history and your infantile prejudices for all to see.

_________________________________________________

:*

Try telling that to my mother-in-law, who as a teenager in Poland was thrown into a cattle truck with the rest of her family and sent to a Siberian gulag, and one of her sisters didn't get that far courtesy of a Russian soldier...........:(

[C130 Techie]

Maple 01

I may be wrong but I think Sunfishes point may have been that the Germans and Russians behaved equally as badly to the others population.

[Washington_Irving]

(Back to thread for a monet- nice to see someone doing the honourable thing, all too rare these days, I'm sorry to say.)

Generally speaking, I don't think any nation came off worse from WWII than the Poles. I think we can all agree that the poor buggers got hammered from both sides.:( However, simple arithmetic will tell you where the war in Europe was won and lost, no matter how much the protagonists were b:mad: s.

Re: the Dresden plaque. Let's not overlook how enthusiastic many East Germans were (are) about communism. Almost anyone who knows of such matters would say that the Stazi were a hell of a lot more ruthless than the KGB (post Stalin anyway) and don't forget, their archives show that they had plenty of help from the public.

[African Tech Rep]

If we are going to get off topic lets remember that at the outbreak of war Russia and Germany were allies – they carved Poland between them.
Once Germany attacked Russia (one if their big mistakes) it became vital we supported Russia – hence the convoys – as keeping them going meant the Germans were fighting on three fronts (UK. Russia & Africa) – they became a “necessary evil”.
Yes the Germans and Russians (at least many of them) were “not nice” – the Japs were IMHO even worse.

No matter what is said it’s good he got his medals back – all WW2 combatants deserve our respect and thanks for stopping the Germans second attempt at an EU.

Saddest thing I think I’ve seen – War Memorial in Prague – it thanks the Yanks for “liberating” them – the Yanks got there first “liberated” them and then handed them over to the Russians – talk about out of frying pan into fire.

[Maple 01]

C130 Techie
You may be right, but where as the wartime German generation have been forced to face-up to their actions the Russians never have, especially the way they treated the Poles, who if you discount pinching a bit of Czechoslovakia in 1938, didn't do anything to anyone*

*pedants might want to mention running a right-wing anti-Semitic nationalist government and stuffing the red Army in 1921, but relatively nothing, nothing to warrant the murder of 1/5 of the population

[C130 Techie]

Maple 01

Good point, well presented!

[SpinSpinSugar]

Staying with the off-topic book-recommendation slant, "The Forgotten Solder" by Guy Sajer is a pretty remarkable read with reference to the Eastern Front.

[Hot Wings]

Spin Spin Sugar - yes, it is an excellent book.

The Eastern Front is where Hitler lost the war. The big problem was that Churchill couldn't convince Roosevelt that the Russians were an even bigger threat than the Germans. During the final days of WWII, some surrendering German units even expected the US and Brits to join with them to take the fight to the Russians! Many German veterans still don't understand why the Russians were given so much latitude at the end of the war - the Cold War probably proved them right.

[dirtygc]

Anyone seen the film 'The Pianist'.

Now that is a hard hitting film showing exactly (Allegedly) how the Polish Jews suffered.

Good on the old chap and his medal saviour, deserve all the praise and recognition they get. I just wish someone would point me in the right direction to my missing GJ medal.

[Pontius Navigator]

Here is my potted view of Russian history. Russia feared Germany but needed money to fund her economy. They borrowed it from France, the banker of Europe.

Germany feared she would be crushed if Russia invaded from the east and France from the west. Schliffen concocted a plan which had to be executed before Russia could mobilise.

Years later Russia mobilised, Germany implemented the plan and attacked France and Russia.

Russia lost. There was a revolution and the USSR emerged.

Germany lost. Britain invaded northern Russia. USA invaded Russia. The middle European nations invaded Russia.

White Russia lost and the Soviets triumphed.

Twenty years later Germany again threatened Russia so it was perfectly reasonable that Stalin signed the non-aggression Pact as Germany's potential enemies had been Russia's enemies before.

Then we go through my enemies enemy is my friend routine until Germany is defeated. Russia now wants a defensive fire zone and sets up the eastern bloc countries as a glacis.

America sets up an offensive screen of containment through a series of threaties.

From a Russian perspective the west threatens her very survival and the west's economic muscle makes this threat very real.

For the conspiracy theorists, we could surmise that the cold war was a creation of the US military-industrial complex but I wouldn't go down that route.

[brickhistory]

I thought the Yanks won WW2 single handedly !!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, you're right.

And accroding to Hollywood they also captured the first Enigma machine 2 years before they even entered the war, thats how good they are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a Yank, I'm sometimes surprised at the reactions out there, sometimes not.....

If it hadn't been for Britain's stance 1939-late 1941, life would have sucked for all of Europe. Don't believe Germany could have taken us out, but getting back the continent would have taken years longer, if at all.

We had a bunch of idiots who supported Hitler's ideology (the Bund, IIRC), even more who just wanted to stay out of it (some things never change apparently....), and a smart few who were working to be with the good guys.

The Soviets did a LOT of bad things in "liberating" Eastern Europe, like not letting the countries go after they booted out the Wehrmacht. And it truly sucked to be any sort of female when Ivan came through, BUT, if Ivan hadn't been in the fight, then the stance mentioned above wouldn't have lasted. Lots of divisions and aircraft would have poured west again.

Regarding Hollywood making the US as the sole victors and/or rewriting history, doesn't each country's film industry do that? They are trying to make a buck/pound/ruble, not be accurate. It's just a movie, fer Chris'sake.......

[Pontius Navigator]

brickhistory wrote <<It's just a movie, fer Chris'sake.......>>

True.

It was Errol Flynn that got up the noses of British veteran's in the '50s. An Englishman who avoided the war by staying in Holywood and won the war in Burma in the US Army single-handed.

I studied Britsh film propaganda in the period 1933-1945 and that included Chaplin's Great Dictator and the political fallout it attracted. We are generally submitted to reasonably accurate war films with some as pure fiction such as Guns of Navaronne based on Alistar MacLean's novel. Where it is based on fact however but fact that is wholly distorted then it does create a stink.

The other films we looked at, briefly, were your Vietnam films from Green Beret to the Tom Hanks one. These are good examples of public attitude to one period of history from pro-war through to anti-war with the more recent Vietnam films tending toward the pro-war lobby again.

[barit1]

I thought the Yanks won WW2 single handedly !!!
That's what I always though, until my first trip to France, whereupon I learned that THEY won it singlehandedly.

:eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

barit 1, we would conceed that the grunts in the Pacific can lay a large claim to that theatre but in the west of the theatre the British and India Armies were no less engaged.

One bit that is frequently overlooked on the naval side is that the Royal Navy hard-topped fleet carriers survived kamikazi attacks when the USN wooden ships succumbed.

HMS Victorious had a 5 in armoured deck and simply swept the debris over the side. She had the dent until the day she was scrapped.

[Leftit2L8]

To all those across the pond, my original post was very much 'tongue in cheek'. I would never crticise the USA's contribution to bringing the most appalling war to an end. The 8th Air Forces contribution and bravery doing day-light raids was imeasurable and Enola Gay etc. certainly brought forward the end of that aspect of the war by possibly years and saved millions of lives.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Well done, Mr Najmi!

Not that I'm trying to return the thread to its original point of course. Nothing wrong with a bit of who won the war banter!

Of course, it could be argued that it was the economies of Japan and Germany that won in the long run.

:O

[brickhistory]

qoute:

One bit that is frequently overlooked on the naval side is that the Royal Navy hard-topped fleet carriers survived kamikazi attacks when the USN wooden ships succumbed.

HMS Victorious had a 5 in armoured deck and simply swept the debris over the side. She had the dent until the day she was scrapped.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From which came the famous qoute from a USN officer serving as an liaison to Admiral Vian's (spelling?) staff:

"When we take a kamikaze, it's off to Pearl Harbor for six months refit, when you guys get hit, it's "Sweepers, man your brooms."

I also think our USN treated the RN shabbily once the RN's carrier task force entered Pacific ops in mid-1944. We definitely treated them like unwanted step-children (despite the loan of one of HM carriers during 1942 in the Pacific when all of ours were sunk or damaged.)

My hat's off to the FAA crews who flew missions, especially Seafire pilots. With that narrow-legged gear, took a lot of skill to bring it aboard (let's not go into the accident rate......)

[Sunfish]

Pontius, Errol Flyn was actually an Australian from Tasmania.

When he moved from Australia to America he raised the IQ of both countries signifigantly.

[RevMan2]

"When he moved from Australia to America he raised the IQ of both countries signifigantly."

Which is plagiarism of a Muldoon-ism.

Let's REALLY get this thread off topic and start talking about underarm bowling.....

[Clockwork Mouse]

As this has developed into a history lesson on WW2, a small input from someone who feels strongly about the subject.

Without the assistance of the US the West would undoubtedly have lost WW2. I particular, the food and materiel we got from across the pond in 1940 and 1941 enabled Britain to survive alone against the axis. However the US was not interested in helping Britain maintaining the Empire, which they saw as a rival economically and politically. They were very slow in joining in the punch up and only did so when attacked by Japan and when Hitler then jumped on the band wagon and declared war on them.

Hollywood has subsequently distorted the input of every other nation to the final victory. That's life. One hopes that the history books will be more impartial and balanced, but don't hold your breath and anyway few of the general public world-wide will read them. One would hope that governments would be more honest, but look what crap the Japanese are now putting into their school history books.

By the way, US lend-lease was not a gift to us Brits, as the post-war Marshall Plan was to the rest of Europe, including Germany. We have been repaying it, plus interest, ever since. The last repayment to the US is due on 31 December 2006.

I admire much about the US and their people, but have no illusions about the "special relationship". I therefore hate to watch Blair, who represents us and our great nation, crawling to Bush.

Sorry if my emotions show through.

[Pontius Navigator]

And my potted view of American arms?

The tremendous and largely useless losses caused by the civil war shocked America.

Mass production enabled America to produce good quality munitions in quantity.

In WWI, remembering the civil war, they did not want to get involved. Involved they got and used their industrial muscle to break the stalemate and swing the balance.

In WWII ditto. Producing merchant ships in 14 days and Sherman tanks like car production all helped provide massive technological mass. At Anzio they managed to land one vehicle for every 4 men.

For WWIII the US again turned to technology and produced war winning equipment albeit not in numbers to match the USSR.

In GW1/2 their kit was superb.

I am not commenting on their skill at arms but at their technology driven approach to 'make the other dumb bastard die for his country.'

[brickhistory]

qoute:

When he moved from Australia to America he raised the IQ of both countries signifigantly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could have been cutting if Sunfish spelled "significantly" correctly.

:ok:

[African Tech Rep]

History is written by the victors

BTW – anyone seem any films where the Germans won any battle ?
They did win some – but even the ones about Dunkirk make us seem to come out on top.
(Yes – Dunkirk was a sort of “victory” for us)
:ok:

[Argus]

brickhistory

Touché.

Apparently, Sunfish isn't “In like Flynn”!

[Maple 01]

History is written by the victors

if only I had a quid for every time I'd heard that trotted out.........

[African Tech Rep]

But it's true

How many people know how Hitler came to power - my history teacher was a bit lost on that bit of history.

A different war - but (now) near to me - did you know that Isawanda was a major victory - but Rorkes Drift never happened.

[Dani]

While I agree in a lot of above postings, it has to be said that some people are confusing things. While the US and the western allies contributed the most important goods (weapons, know-how, organization) to the victory in WWII, the USSR had to pay its worst blood toll, going to 25? Mio victims, or was it 30 Mio? Not included the millions that died post-1945.

Biggest thinking error of simple minds is that they put a people equal with a regime. Logical consequence is hatred, xenophobia and chauvinism.

Dani

[henry crun]

African Tech Rep: Are you saying that 11 VC's were awarded for a battle that never occurred ?

[Blacksheep]

A minor skirmish - there were only 4,500 Zulus in the attack against 104 soldiers. They left 351 dead behind when they withdrew next morning. At least the guys at Rorkes Drift found ammunition in their ammo boxes when they opened them - fighting a horde of Zulu warriors with a box of Jacob's Cream Crackers isn't medal winning glory stuff, though it should be. My great-grandfather was one of the unfortunate biscuit throwers by the way, the only one of the family left in South Africa.

The real Rorkes Drift looks nothing like the one featured in the 'Zulu' film and though extremely heavily outnumbered, those guys were well dug in behind prepared revettments (making good use of their boxes of biscuits). I'd say quite a few Zulus deserved medals that day - being in the front rank of those charging uphill against dug in redcoats meant certain death.

Returning to the case of BoB pilot's lost medals, it is as well to remember that "The Few" flew continuously against superior odds for several weeks and gave no quarter. Far too few medals were awarded in my opinion, but what are mere medals to real heroes?

[henry crun]

Blacksheep: I know that Zulu bore only a superficial resemblance to the battle at Rorkes Drift; what I am questioning is African Tech Rep's statement that " Rorkes Drift never happened".

[African Tech Rep]

Coming from Wales to SA obviously one the places I wanted to visit was Rorkes Drift – by the time my project allowed I had an Afrikaans girlfriend (who is now my wife) who had recently left school (about a year earlier) – when I told her where I wanted to go she knew NOTHING about it so I asked her brother who was still in school who also knew NOTHING – so I asked many people and found some of the old ones knew but few of the young ones.

This was explained to me as “since 1994 SA history has been re-written – only battles won by “non whites” are now taught.

It was actually a follow on statement to show how "history is written by the victors".

There is a museum there and although it can be difficult to find once you get near the signs become good and the people I found wonderful – we got there late saw Rorkes Drift and got to Isawanda on closing time – the guy gave us the key to the gate, told us where his house is and asked us to lock up and drop the key off when we’d finished.

I still have not seen the film Zulu for sale or hire here.

[henry crun]

Apologies African Tech Rep, now I see what you mean.