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View Full Version : Surprised That This Has Not Gotten More Press Here


Sonic Zepplin
21st Sep 2005, 05:38
http://www.ipapilot.org/

dusk2dawn
21st Sep 2005, 06:58
Surprised ? Why ? Do you think we should sympathize with IPA ?
That'll be the day !

Iflyforcash
21st Sep 2005, 13:31
dusk2dawn

Over time it has become rather obvious that you are upset about IPA pilots flying intra-Europe. I respect your right to have that opinion, but I can assure you that IPA pilots harbor absolutely no animosity towards European UPS contractor pilots, even though we may disagree on certain issues. I actually think that some UPS contractor pilots are being grossly taken advantage of around the world. IPA pilots fly whatever is authorized by bi-laterals and nothing more. If you dispute that last statement, it is an issue your union should take it up with appropriate European authorities.

In that context I continue to be puzzled by the fact that MNG and Bluebird (both based in non EU countries) are permitted to fly intra-Europe. Is that acceptable to you?

By the way I love Carlsberg Gold.

dusk2dawn
22nd Sep 2005, 13:31
MNG will - if they constitute a problem - be dealt with trough european channels.

Bluebird is an EEC-memberstate operator and as such operate on an agreement based on reciprocity.

Iflyforcash
22nd Sep 2005, 15:29
So, if reciprocity ever occurs between the EU and the US, is it plausible to assume that IPA pilots then would get to do all intra-Europe flying for UPS?

neil armstrong
22nd Sep 2005, 16:07
If that agreement will ever get there ,that could happen!
And the DHL Air pilots could fly the DHL routes in the USA ,sounds like a good deal to me.


Neil

Iflyforcash
22nd Sep 2005, 18:30
Neil,

As the saying goes ?be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it?. I personally hope that some sort of deal between the EU and the US will be to everybody?s advantage in the long run, especially as the integrators continue their globalization effort in grand scale. We are currently witnessing a severe degradation of the pilot profession here in the US, including that of the pilots that work for the US based DHL contractors. I view cooperation and communication between pilot groups around the world as very important as outsourcing is becoming the new corporate fad. When it comes down to it, the customer does not really care how a package gets from point A and point B. What the customer cares about is price, timeliness and reliability, and that is it. If major corporations can cut costs they will, and in any conceivable way.

Out of curiosity do you know if any DHL pilots in Europe are actual DHL employees or do they work for subcontractors like in the US? In the US the two primary DHL subcontractors are ABX (Airborne Express) and ASTAR. These companies are basically ACMI contractors that bid to fly DHL routes. From what I understand Kalitta was just awarded a route that used to be flown by ASTAR. Sadly what is going on in the US aviation right now is a slow race to the bottom.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/26/12/
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/28/12/
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/34/12/

neil armstrong
23rd Sep 2005, 00:00
I know how DHL works in the US ,they use outside companies because they cant own a airline being a European company!
In Europe the bulk of the work is flown by EAT(Belgium) and DHlAir(UK) both owned by DHL

Neil

Iflyforcash
23rd Sep 2005, 17:31
If you have time, I am the one in need of some education here.

1. What is the purpose of having two separate airlines in Europe if they are both owned and operated by DHL?
2. Which is regarded as better to work for EAT or DHLAir(UK), or are they pretty comparable when it comes to compensation and schedules?
3. What is the pilot turnover in these companies, or do the majority stay until they retire if hired by one of these companies?

Iflyforcash
24th Sep 2005, 14:57
From the following thread on airliners.net it looks like there might be movement on the US-EU Open skies issues.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2343554/

neil armstrong
25th Sep 2005, 15:40
Hello Iflyforcash:
Interesting thread on airliners!
Seems that the Pilots on the other side of the pond want us as much over there as we want them over here!

Why DHL has 2 airlines in Europe i dont know ,it might have something to do with not having all yr eggs in one basket!
It might all change in the next couple of years when DHL moves its main base to Leipzig Germany.

Both airlines offer about the same ,one a bit better pay the other a better pension etc. but over all not that big of a differance.


Pilot turn over In DHL Air is low for captains and older pilots ,but younger pilot turn over is higher ,mainly because there are lots of jobs in the UK at the moment !

Neil

Iflyforcash
5th Oct 2005, 03:24
IPA Press Release 10/4/2005
UPS to Deliver Menlo Flying Seven Months Late; Breaches Pilot Contract by Outsourcing Aviation until July 2006

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 (Louisville, KY) ? After months of deception, UPS finally owned up to the fact that it will breach its pilot?s contract by failing to deliver the flying from the Menlo acquisition on December 19, 2005, as promised. Under the Company?s new timetable, integration of Menlo flying into the UPS network will not occur until July 17, 2006.

?This is not a matter of a Company trying in good faith, but simply failing to meet a contractual deadline. For months, we have received nothing but assurances from UPS that the transition of Menlo flying was on schedule,? said Capt. Tom Nicholson, President of the Independent Pilots Association. He went on to say, ?the Company only admitted breaching the contract after the IPA obtained third party confirmation that UPS had awarded aviation subcontracts to cover Menlo flying well into 2006.?

The IPA has been meeting with UPS on a regular basis since it announced the purchase of Menlo nine months ago. At all of these meetings, the IPA has been assured by UPS Labor that Menlo integration was on track and that IPA Crewmembers would be taking over the Menlo flying in December. UPS Labor is the same group currently negotiating a new contract with the IPA.

?It is insulting to think that while UPS was making these assurances to us, they were canceling Airbus A-300 orders and negotiating the Scope clause of our new contract. All the while, they knew they were setting us up for a massive contract breach,? said Capt. Nicholson.

?UPS?s timing could not be worse. This month, we will enter our fourth year of contract talks, our union is in the middle of leadership elections, and we are on the eve of the Christmas shipping season. This is the wrong kind of news to be delivering just before the most critical quarter of operations,? added Nicholson.

The impact of UPS?s decision to outsource IPA contract protected work to a patchwork of carriers for the next seven months means the loss of a significant amount of new IPA flying.

?It would be one thing if the Menlo Scope breach were an isolated issue. But, when you consider that UPS currently outsources six weekly flights to China Air to move computer parts from Asia to Nashville for Dell, and its current negotiating proposals on Scope, it becomes systemic,? said Capt. Nicholson.

Sonic Zepplin
5th Oct 2005, 11:34
neil armstrong

Moon Walker

Why 2 airlines you ask.

Easy, they run one to destroy the other and when all hell breaks loose they take the stronger of the 2 and reduce the terms and conditions of it staff to pathetic levels.

oldest trick in the book

Look at Polar and Atlas

JJflyer
6th Oct 2005, 05:17
Americans can fly all the cargo and PAX in Europe all I care as long as they have the appropriate visas and or residency credentials or work permits.
Basically same hassle any European has to go through to work in US.

JJ

dusk2dawn
6th Oct 2005, 06:52
ECA Position Paper on the Possible Resumption of EU-US Talks (http://www.eurocockpit.be/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=350&Itemid=2)

Iflyforcash
6th Oct 2005, 23:01
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/financial_markets/12834502.htm

EU officials push on 'open-skies' agreement

CONSTANT BRAND

Associated Press

BRUSSELS, Belgium - European Union transport ministers agreed Thursday to push ahead with talks to get a so-called "open-skies" agreement with the United States, aiming to secure access for European airlines to the lucrative U.S. domestic market.
EU Transport Commissioner Jacques Barrot, speaking to reporters after EU transportation talks in Luxembourg, said he would make contact with U.S. Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta to forge ahead with the difficult talks. Formal discussions have been stalled since last year.
British Transport Secretary Alistair Darling, whose country holds the EU presidency, said informal talks over the past weeks between EU and U.S. officials had yielded results and would now lead to a restart of formal negotiations.
"These talks have been encouraging, and we recognized that while there could be no guarantee at all of success, we supported the (European) Commission in resuming formal negotiations with the United States," Darling told reporters. "We judge that the conditions were now in place to make progress toward an agreement."
The EU has been seeking to negotiate an open-skies agreement with the United States since 2003, but it has been stalled on a European request for its carriers to be allowed to operate on domestic U.S. routes. The talks deadlocked because EU carriers were not granted access to the U.S. domestic market, while U.S. carriers could, in principle, fly between European cities in different countries.
"We are starting off with a situation which is very much in balance in favor of the United States. The existing agreements are to the detriment of European transport companies, which don't enjoy the same benefits," said Barrot.
The EU head office is trying to get a new deal after the EU's Court of Justice ruled in 2002 that treaties many EU member states have with the U.S. are illegal under EU law because they grant U.S. landing rights only to domestic carriers of the European country that signed it.
That means, for example, that Air France can fly to the United States from Paris, but Germany's Lufthansa cannot. The court said that was discriminatory under the EU's single market rules.
In subsequent talks with the European Commission, Washington agreed to lift restrictions on trans-Atlantic landing rights for airlines and reduce curbs on foreign ownership of U.S. airlines. Another open issue is whether European carriers that merge, like Air France-KLM, can continue to use all their landing rights in the U.S.
At the same talks in Luxembourg, the EU ministers signed an Open Skies deal with Chile. The head office has negotiated 16 other similar accords with countries like Croatia, Ukraine, Morocco, Lebanon, Singapore and Australia.

**********************************************

BA\'s Walsh sees Europe/US \'open skies\' deal within 18 months

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/10/04/afx2258689.html

LONDON (AFX) - Willie Walsh, British Airways PLC\'s new chief executive, reckons there could be an \'open skies\' deal between Europe and the US within 18 months.

\'I still believe we will see a move towards \'open skies\' within the next 18 months,\' he told reporters at the start of his second day as CEO, succeeding the retired Sir Rod Eddington.

But he stressed that a prerequisite to ending the complex system of bilateral deals between European Union nations and the US is \'a move towards regulatory convergence\'.

\'You cannot have genuine \'open skies\' while the imbalance in rules exist between the EU and the US,\' he said in reference to US airlines in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection who are in receipt of substantial government support.

\'What we\'re seeing with the industry in the US really is unacceptable with over 50 pct of capacity provided by carriers in Chapter 11,\' said Walsh.

An \'open skies\' deal would enable BA to acquire other airlines, with Spanish flag carrier Iberia Lineas Aereas de Espana SA a likely eventual merger candidate.

BA already owns a 9 pct stake in Iberia, the airlines have a code-share agreement and are partners in the Oneworld alliance.

\'The relationship [with Iberia] is a good relationship, I rate the management team at Iberia as the best in the industry,\' said Walsh.

He said a merger deal with an American airline was out of the question without further regulatory reform in the US but noted AMR Corp\'s American Airlines continues to be an \'excellent partner\' of BA within Oneworld.

Walsh said consolidation in the industry is inevitable, but stressed BA will only get involved where it is convinced it is in the best interests of the airline and its shareholders.

\'It will be consolidation to ensure that BA is bigger, better and a more robust, a stronger more viable airline.\'

Turning to the issue of further cuts to BA\'s 46,000 workforce as the airline chases its target of a further 300 mln stg of employee cost savings by April 2007 ahead of its move to Heathrow Terminal 5 the following year, Walsh declined to give a figure but is hopeful compulsory redundancies can be avoided.

\'We haven\'t defined a figure at this stage,\' he said, but he pointed to more visibility when BA\'s new business plan is set out early next year.

\'We\'re looking at moving into a world class facility, we\'re looking at utilising to its maximum advantage the technology that\'s available today and likely to be developed between now and then, to ensure that we can have the most efficient operation possible,\' he explained.

After three summers of costly disruption at Heathrow, Walsh wants new processes and working practices agreed with the trade unions by the end of next year. Negotiations are ongoing.

And despite August\'s wildcat action by baggage handlers in support of sacked Gate Gourmet staff, which grounded BA flights for two days, costing the airline some 40 mln stg, Walsh is encouraged by his initial dealings with the workforce.

\'A great positive was the attitude of the vast majority who stood up to the unlawful industrial action that took place on August 11 and 12,\' he said.

\'What I\'ve seen in the few months that I\'ve been here is the clear determination of almost everybody in BA to do things in a better way.\'

The CEO said the airline\'s holy grail of a 10 pct operating margin is \'achievable\' but declined to put a timeframe on it.

\'We\'ve made good progress towards that [target] and I expect to continue to make progress towards it but I don\'t have a date in my mind as to when we will actually achieve it. We\'re not going to achieve it in the current year [to end-March 2006].\'

Following a review BA will retain a two class service on short haul flights, Walsh insisted.

And he said he did not expect the airline to take delivery of any new aircraft ahead of the T5 move.

He also flagged investment of \'in excess of\' 100 mln stg over the next year in BA\'s Club World business class cabin, in-flight entertainment and in the ba.com website.

At 1.11 pm shares in BA were down 1/2 pence at 292-3/4 valuing the business at 3.31 bln stg.

The airline will report September traffic figures tomorrow.

[email protected]

Iflyforcash
12th Oct 2005, 13:32
http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2005-10-11T222711Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-219054-1.xml&archived=False

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union and the United States will next week resume stalled negotiations on how to open up the aviation industry on both sides of the Atlantic to more competition, the European Commission said on Tuesday.
"Negotiations will take place in Brussels on Oct. 17," the Commission said in a statement.
U.S. Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta and EU Transport Commissioner Jacques Barrot held a telephone conversation earlier on Tuesday, it said.
The two sides came close to sealing an "open skies" pact last year, but talks broke down after EU ministers demanded more access for European airlines to the U.S. domestic market.
The open skies talks cover issues ranging from opening up the right to buy airlines and allowing all EU carriers to have the same rights to use U.S. airports. Airlines in the United States in turn want more access to European airports.
Britain, which holds the rotating EU presidency, is a key player in the talks because of the desire of U.S. airlines to have more access to London's Heathrow airport.