Becoming a Pilot: Which course of action?

[Master Yoda]

I've tried posting this in the other forums but not much help there so here goes:

I cannot decide whether to go to do this 2 year uni course (foundation degree in aviation management and ops) at london met uni (starting in one week) which will involve getting me a PPL and ATPL ground school and a bit of aviation business studies thrown in (i can get all my fees paid for plus £6k per year student loans). But I have to pay for all the flying and exam fees etc.

But I've also been offered a place to do an Integrated course at FTE Jerez and pay the £65k or so to improve my chances.

Both routes would mean that I have to borrow from the bank but obviously the university route is cheaper (but modular), I hear it all the time that Integrated (more expensive!) is preferred by airlines and that it's damn hard to get employment at the mo.

I've got a constant headache as time is ticking and only one week left to make a decision. (and i cannot put it off for another year as age is now an issue (28).

Any tips to help my decision please folks?

[Thunder Child]

Mate - a degree ain't a licence to fly planes!

Shell out the 65k and your laughin. You'll be guaranteed a job on a 747-400 for British Airways before you can say 'I'm a gullible muppet who belives all the paraphenalia I've read'

[scroggs]

Not quite sure what Thunder Child is on about. I imagine he was trying to be funny - if not exactly helpful.

Let's nail a few myths first. While one or two airlines express a preference for students from integrated courses, there are plenty of modular graduates getting jobs. One of the largest training providers is modular only (CTC), and I don't hear anyone suggesting their training isn't up to scratch! The preference for integrated (where it exists) is based on an outdated understanding of the process of getting an ATPL. You'll hear such people talking about 'CAP509' students and 'self-improvers'. Neither exist any more, but we can't get that through some people's thick heads. Ah well.

Secondly, this is not a difficult time to get a job! I reckon recruiting now is as good as it's ever been, with the sole exception of the manic period between 1999-2001. The fact that many more people want to be pilots than there are jobs for them is a problem - but not as much as it usually is!

As for which route is best, I'm afraid I can't help you. You have to make that decision for yourself. I've heard reasonably favourable reports of the LMU course, but I would remind you that you don't need a degree to become a pilot - and it will take you rather longer to do this course than the FTE (or OAT, Cabair or CTC) course. If you consider age to be an issue, then why take the longer course?

Scroggs

[airwolfuk]

First of all I am not a pilot (yet) and therefore this is only my personal opinion. I am currently studying a law degree and taking a Cert. Ed so you can decide whether to listen to my opinion or not.

However, having a degree makes a person a more attractive candidate. A degree shows commitment to study and an ability to achieve.

Flying is more than just pointing a stick or pressing a button and one needs a cool head and the ability to think on the spot.

With competition as tight as it is I would suspect that a degree would put someone ahead of a competing candidate who didn't have a degree.

A degree in Airline management or Operations also shows that you have learned about the "behind the scenes" of an airline. You are not engrossed with the glamorous images of jetsetting and you have a genuine understanding of the operation of an airline.

You have a better understanding of the issues affecting your customers.

I would do the degree route mainly because I wouldn't be able to afford the more expensive route.

Also, you are only going to have a frozen ATPL which means you are still going to need to be sponsored to get your hours and type ratings. Who are the airlines going to sponsor? Someone with a degree maybe??? Degrees show committment and ability to study.

Degrees make people more employable as well (check the Guardian for more information on the research that was undertaken about grads vs non-grads.)

I am off to Helicopter Adventures to do an ab-initio frozen ATPL with FI when I graduate as I feel that this is the cheapest and quickest option for me. I will have a degree and I understand law graduates are desirable candidates in the aviation industry.

Good luck.

Forgot to add that I am also getting old at 23 I am now too old for a flying career in the armed forces (will be 26 when I graduate.) Jesus that scares the crap out of me!!!!!

Gotta get in the air quick........grey hair forcing it\'s way through.............hunch developing.........bladder weakening

PS just noticed that if you already have a frozen ATPL then londonmet will award you the degree if you top-up and just complete the first part of the programme which is one semester (3 months) so if you can afford to do the course privately then do it that way as you will get the degree anyway! Shorter time and same academic qualification!!!

[scroggs]

First of all I am not a pilot (yet) and therefore this is only my personal opinion. I am currently studying a law degree and taking a Cert. Ed so you can decide whether to listen to my opinion or not. However, having a degree makes a person a more attractive candidate. A degree shows commitment to study and an ability to achieve.

Your admission that you are not a pilot undermines your point, which is based on an assumption you can't back up with experience, I'm afraid. Let me clarify the real situation:

It is true that in many fields a degree may aid your chances of employment. It is equally true that in many other fields, a degree marks you out as 'overqualified' and thus reduces your chances of employment. Flying professionally fits neither of these profiles.

In aviation, only those people who are applying for ab-initio training to be paid for by someone else (or with deferred payment) are likely to be aided by a degree. This covers the Services, CTC, Oxford's APP, and a few other similar schemes. These are people with no flying experience whatsoever, being assessed by training organisations who are going to take some financial risk in taking them on. Without previous flying experience, these FTOs must rely on some other measure, and so academic qualifications, together with aptitude testing, are used as an aid to assessing potential candidates. A degree may help here, but it will not be the deciding factor, and is thus not compulsory.

For those who are funding their own training, and thus are intending to pitch up to potential employers with a completed frozen ATPL, academic qualifications are far less important as the employer will be taking less of a risk than he would with the non-pilot. Whether your degree will make a difference on the day you turn up will depend on the prejudices of the individual doing the screening, but no airline that I know of (in UK) asks for anything greater than fairly basic academic qualifications from direct-entry pilots.

In other words, do a degree if you want to, but don't expect it to be a big factor in your chances of employment as a direct-entry pilot.

Scroggs

[airwolfuk]

In any industry a graduate has an upper hand over a non-graduate. If you have a frozen ATPL and someone else has 3000 hours on type then your degree obviously isn't going to swing it in your favour!

MOST people applying for competitive jobs have degrees now and if you are able to put a degree in airline management and operations on your application form then surely you are going to appear to be a stronger candidate.

Surely one should aim to be the best one can be rather than just settle for mediocre. If you are able to obtain a degree then I believe that you should do so. I am currently studying for a teaching qualification and tell all my students that if they have the opportunity to get a degree then they should.

A degree teaches more than just an academic subject. People with degrees are better prepared for the big wide world than people without. A degree teaches teamwork, social skills and shows a prospective employer that you have the ability to achieve and that you have committment.

If the poster completes his fATPL then the University will award him the degree if he completes one additional module which is one semester in length. So why turn down the opportunity to get a degree when it is being offered on a plate? It can't do any harm to your application and will enhance it.

The airlines may only ask for a basic education but do you just want to meet the basic requirements or do you want to excel? Do you just want to meet the requirements or do you want to make sure that you exceed them?

The degree would also prepare you for a career as you will cover subjects such as airline management which can only be a bonus when climbing the ladder within the company.

I just feel that people who only want to do enough to pass aren't achieving all they can and this isn't acceptable as people should be doing all they can to be the best they can be.

I was once told at University "Don't worry you only need 40% to pass" well I wasn't happy with just 40% as this means you don't know 60% of the course and I don't just want 40% I want to do the best I can do.

If you want a degree then do it. It is only one module and will only enhance your CV. When the recruiters are looking at your CV surely having a degree will entice them not to put it in the round filing cabinet!

[scroggs]

Of course you should do the best that you can, but I do get rather frustrated with people who try to justify their own course of action by recommending it to others! You have little or no idea of the circumstances of the vast majority of the people who read this board, and therefore little idea of whether your advice is relevant to them.

Just because you are doing a degree, and you feel it fits your circumstances, do not make the assumption that the same is true for others. Equally, be wary about trotting out marketing cliches (and that's what they are) about the desireability of a degree. For a very few occupations, a degree is essential. For some, a degree is preferred, for the vast majority degrees are irrelevant.

This statement:
MOST people applying for competitive jobs have degrees now and if you are able to put a degree in airline management and operations on your application form then surely you are going to appear to be a stronger candidate
is a collection of assumptions on your part, and has little or no basis in fact. A degree does not necessarily make you a stronger candidate in a whole host of jobs, though the education industry would like you to believe that it does - and you would appear to have swallowed their line wholesale! Are they paying you? ;)

Please note that I have not advised Master Yoda not to take this degree. I have questioned the wisdom of doing this course if he feels that time is a factor, as it will take him longer than doing an integrated course - which is arguably preferred by many of the employers he may be interested in (and that's another can of worms!).

Scroggs

[Megaton]

Can't remember being asked about my acacemic qualifications at any of the 4 airline interviews that I've attended. Although I'm sure they didn't harm my chances, prospective employers were much more interested in my personal qualities and whether I was likely to pass the type-rating with minimum fuss.

[Gufo]

Well, I agree that if Master Yoda has a good chance to get a degree, while doing his flying, it's worth a try. But surely not for the extra points at an interview, which you're likely not to get.
The good part of it is that you have an alternate route in your life, should the aviation thing go wrong..

Dixi et animam levavi ;)