The right job for a VC10?

[A and C]

The MOD has just anounced that it is taking the BZZ-PRN -BNX-BZZ weekly flight back "in house"and is going to fly it with a VC10.

I have no doubt that this is a job that the VC10 can do but is this a good use of the VC10? It will burn a lot more fuel than the B738 that is currently doing the flight and the maintenance costs are likely to be a lot higher and the VC10 by now must have a limmited life so would it not be a better idea to save the airframe life for the military tasks that only the VC10 can do such as air to air refueling?

I do have a bit of an axe to grind on this subject but would value the opinions of those who have more of insight into why the RAF have decided to take this flight back in house.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Gate guardian perhaps?

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[buoy15]

AWB

Yes, but where?

B15

[SASless]

ABIW beat me to it....the VC-10 is good for naught now days. Send it to Arizona for a sunbath. Only the VC-10 can do air to air refuelling....oh dear...what of all those KC things wandering about the place?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

It may be old but it is still as sexy looking today as it was 31 years ago when I first worked on it as a young aircraft mechanic:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

Only very few of those 'KC things' are multi-hose and few have a centreline hose.

There'll be only one reason why the Vintage Airliner Force is taking back that schedule. Cost. But the crews will be glad to go somewhere which isn't just sodding desert.

No doubt when the ageing FunBus has been squatting U/S on some aerodrome or other for a few days, the decision will be reviewed.

[Compass Call]

SASless

I was unaware that the R.A.F. had any aircraft with the prefix 'KC'.


CC

[SASless]

Makes one wonder why not doesn't it?

[opso]

Do you mean apart from the KC1?

[Tonkenna]

BZZ-PRN -BNX-BZZ

I am sure that should read Long wait-Long Bus ride-FFD-PRN-BNX-FFD-Long bus ride-Long wait!!! for the next few moths anyway:O

Remember your sense-of-humour;)

Tonks:)

[BEagle]

With all those buses cluttering the roads from BZN-FFD and back, it's a good thing that road fuel costs are at an all time low.......:rolleyes:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well I suppose the other option is to let the runway at Brize slowly fall to pieces and fit all the a/c with Land Rover tyres.

I'm sure the collective 'knowledge' of the PPrune forum could come up with a better option than having to divert a/c to another airfield whilst BZZ is closed, something the might of the MoD just can't manage to think of.

[plans123]

Mmmmm - they did last time they resurfaced the runway at Brize. The insuing incident nearly cost us a Tristar full of pax MPA bound and a sherpa van plus driver. I was working the night it happened (but not involved I hasten to add!!!).

Close and bolthole - its alot safer and means the work can be completed quicker.

[BEagle]

IIRC, the Sherpa was driven by some Bampton Barracks grunt who had no idea what a runway was - and who had been told it was OK to cross regardless of the light indications.

How do they resurface Gatwick? Or Heathrow?

[plans123]

BEagle, best check your facts - It was a TG9 SAC who I have known for nearly 18 years!

[diginagain]

Now why would the old dog let truth get in the way of his agenda?

(It IS only banter):p

[plans123]

Said like a true journalist

:D ;) :ok:

[QuidProQuo]

Boltholing is a faff but the safest way to get this job done. And it's not just resurfacing, the AGL is being replaced as well and this would be nearly impossible if they tried to keep the runway in use. Oh, and not boltholing would have meant the work took 9 months. And what happens when a jet is late leaving theatre (or where ever), misses the closing time for the runway and diverts to - Manchester? Plane and crews in the wrong place! Boltholing seems to be the least painful option - and it is relatively shortlived.

[BEagle]

Apologies to all Bampton Barracks grunt drivers for the mis-ident - I guess I didn't recall correctly!

OK - if as is obviously the best way to do it - the place is closed for such major WiP, why is the Class D CTR remaining in place? It must be the only Control Zone in the UK (and probably the world) which doesn't have an active aerodrome contained therein?

[Roguedent]

Lets not turn this thread into a 'lets slag off the VC10 again' or 'bolthole is going to be a faff'. We all know that bolthole is going to be difficult, but there are a lot of people, putting a lot of work into it, give them a chance:O . Once they mess it up, then feel free to banter them. SASless, get off your soapbox, and let me get onto it. When the Gov give us a nice new aircraft, we will gladly fly it, until then we are stuck with the mighty 10. The US has similar problems to ourselves, they don't have a tanker replacement. I sense you have a axe to grind with the ten, perhaps you once had chicken insted of beef, or didn't get a window seat. Did you prod on a red and get a telling off, no i've got it, you wished you had flown the queen of the skies insted of whirly death machines. As for the thread, The schedule will provide a much needed change from BSR, who cares about the extra cost/fuel burn, as an operater I don't pay the bill, and if it lessens the life of the aircraft, perhaps we will get a new aircraft earlier.:ok:

[16 blades]

OOH - tetchy! Just like the obsolete airliner you fly!

:E

misses the closing time for the runway and diverts to - Manchester? Plane and crews in the wrong place!

I would NEVER call Bredbury Hall the 'wrong' place.........

16B

[goldcup]

Obsolete!? Surely propellors are the obsolete technology....

[plans123]

Pay a visit to Dowty's in Gloucester and tell them that. :ok: ;)

[A and C]

The PRN - BNX thing is usualy a nice day out moving people who are plesant to the crew unlike some of the "trailer trash" that we have to haul. The last few times that I have done the trip it has been mostly visual aproaches with just a few CB's to work around.

The VOR aproach into PRN is not quite as simple as it might at first seem with the step down distances a little unclear on the Jepps.
The only problem seems to be when the weather in that part of the world goes bad it gets very bad, at least once we have had to CAT 3 into Zagreb.

[Roguedent]

A and C

The last time I flew the Lyn-Prn-Bnx-Brd-Bnx-Prn-Bzz, it was indeed very pleasant. Apart from the Bnx approach crontroller trying to fly us into a hill. The AIDU plates for pristina are a little better than the JEPPS ones. The night stop Brindisi is a welcome change to block 101. The above schedule is the herc one though (it went U/S again, so the 10 picked up the pieces), so guess we won't get a nice italian night stop.

[D-IFF_ident]

A bit off topic - but so is everyone else - did I hear correctly that the Tri*s have been painted filing cabinet grey now, too. Rumor (sic) I heard is that the Army paid...

[BEagle]

There was indeed a large grey 3-engined slug at a Covert Oxonian Aerodrome the other day.

Why the dark roundels and fin flash? I thought that grey jets normally had pale blue and pink (Wednesday) low viz markings?

[Dan Winterland]

How do they re-surface the runway at Heathrow and Gatwick? They use quick drying ashphalt and close the runway for a short time during quiet periods.

Why don;t they do that at Brize. Probably something to do with the cost. Overall, it's probably cheaper than the bolthole but I suspect it will be because it's a different budget or something.

[BEagle]

Anyway, I understand that the mighty Vickers Whisperjet is now acting as a pretty effective Gloucestershire alarm clock.....

[Conan the Librarian]

BEagle, the Funbus is a pretty effective alarm for Gloucestershire, even when operating from Oxfordshire (from 26 anyway)

So far, the glorious crackle has been heard a few times after dark, plus many early morning dark o clock arrivals. 'tis a lovely sound...

Slightly off topic, the whingers of Fairford are now going to put up with a bit of noise for a change, but the local pinkos are slightly caught offstep here, in that all those noisy aeroplanes are not American and not bombers either. It will be a giggle to see how the whiners react and if there are any fun rants in the local rag, I shall post them here.

Wonderful to sit in the garden and catch everyone on finals into Fairford. Patios may be good, but Laptops are even better.


Conan

[brakedwell]

Dan Winterland
LGW was normally closed between 2330 and 0630 for resurfacing work when I was based there in the eighties. It was done in the summer because tarmac cures more quickly in warm conditions. CAT 3 was not available during the (several weeks) resurfacing period. I remember having to write a letter to the CAA after completing a foggy morning autoland in CAT 3 conditions after a long night flight. The misunderstanding was due to tiredness and the ambiguous wording of the notam. Fortunately I landed behind a Cathay 747 who also interperpreted it like me! I understand he too was asked to explain his actions in writing. Reason for degrading the ILS? CAT3 radiating but runway lighting not up to par! The controller didn't help either. When clearing us for for a CAT 3 approach he ended his transmission with the words "good luck", which we thought strange at the time!
{BTW The autoland was a greaser and the lights were perfectly adequate in the 100 metres vis.}

[truckiebloke]

still think gate guardian was the best answer yet!!!!(only joking for the serious types out there!!)

[Truck2005]

For all you bus drivers, (this is a techie talking), if you want to see a prime example of 'old and new' and an excellent example of brilliant engineering against a total white elephant and waste of government money take a look at St. Athan. A K4 scrapped outside a brand spanking new £80 million hanger with nothing in it!!!!!!!

[monkeybumhead]

Is the poorly 10 still taking up valuable space down south. If so why not just scrap it down there, ripping out all that can be reused, and drag it somewhere out of the way. Chop the legs off and turn it into a bar, the Vic could live again.
Then again this idea would be a non-starter as an outbreak of morale may ensue, and we can't have that now can we.

[Brain Potter]

The "poorly 10" is now back in the UK, fixed and desperately needed as one of only 7 (yes 7!) three-point tankers. This fleet will soon be just 6 aircraft strong.

[Data-Lynx]

A and C & Roguedent
I was following the banter with some amusement until faced this evening with a new revelation. Apparently, the VC10 is not only retasked for the Balkans, as in this thread, but it is also about to offer more nice days out moving people This time, it is planned to exercise lots of army and a few joint types to see Santa Claus and get back in time for Christmas. I have happy memories, as a very young officer, traveling backwards across the pond in a ‘10’ although I must admit I thought they were mature even then. Having recently headed north on the last stagecoach out of Dodge City (well MPA – before the 747 was broken), I’ve appreciated the vital capability that the tanking 10s provide. But I have to ask: from where did these passenger variants spring and just how old are they?

[Tonkenna]

The C1Ks were built for the RAF and the first one first flew in 1965 and was delivered to 10 Sqn in 1966!!!

The old K2s (now srapped) were a bit older and the K4s first flew in 1964 and were delivered to BOAC then BA.

The K3s are the youngest, first flights 1966-1970 and the last VC10s built... going to East African.

Have a look here:

First Flights (http://www.vc10.net/Data/first_flight_dates.html)

and here:

Production Numbers (http://www.vc10.net/Data/vickers_vc10_prodnumbers.html)

Tonks:cool:

PS looking forward to the last 10 Sqn bash... see some of you there:ok:

[Dr Schlong]

Hmm, let's see...

The passenger VC10s (C1) were specially made for the RAF - they were pimped up regular VC10s with better wings and more fuel capacity and have been in service since the early 60s, they've since been modded to have the wing pods on to conduct tanking with the baby jets and are now known as C1K.

I'm sure there are more knowledgeable chaps out there who can give you more details but that's it in a nutshell - these babies have been working year in, year out since we won the World Cup!

Can't see my car lasting for as long as that! :)

[The Rocket]

Would those be the "Hot Rod" :cool: 10's?

[Logistics Loader]

And now Concord is retired is the VC10 the fastest airliner ??

[Blacksheep]

The passenger VC10s (C1) were specially made for the RAF - they were pimped up regular VC10s with better wings and more fuel capacity Nah, they were Super VC10s with the British United freight door added, together with a stressed cabin floor machined out of solid billets, to take vehicles. The fuselage was shortened to Standard VC10 length to keep the weight down to Super VC10 level and the engines were "Military Rated" - read shorter life. They were nice and new 'Shiny Ten' when I worked on them, all the pilots were 'dashing' young Squadron Leaders and Beags still had a fine head of hair... :E

I heard that splendid crackle last month when a VC10 took off from Brunei International and rattled the glass loose in my office windows. Like Concorde, a VC10 makes folks stop what they're doing and look up. That never happened when one of those fat Slugs departed just a week ago.