Should Australian tourists rescued from New Orleans be billed for their rescue?

[Wiley]

Dear Moderator, before you dump this thread, please bear with me, for it is aviation-related, as many aviators, both military and civilian, are risking their lives rescuing people from this disaster, and the rescuees I’m referring to have only increased that workload, using up precious resources that could – should – have been expended on people who had been unable to escape before the disaster struck.

Rather than being treated as heroes, (as the media have done so far), should the Australian (and other foreign) tourists rescued from New Orleans be asked one, and only one question by their rescuers before they are asked to meet the costs of their rescue?

That question is, of course: What the **** were you doing remaining in the city after a mandatory evacuation order had been issued by the American authorities that gave more than enough time for anyone able to afford a bus ticket ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE to still be there? The stupidity displayed by these ‘heroes’ in remaining in New Orleans after such serious warnings ranks up there alongside the stupidity displayed other Australian who have become media celebrities after attempting to smuggle drugs into Indonesia or consume them there.

I’ve been involved in rescue efforts after major natural disasters and I can vouch that it brings out the very best in many more people than it does bring out the worst in others. (It seemed to me at the time that the worse the losses people had suffered, the more selfless many of them were in their efforts to help others, while some who’d suffered little more than having their carpets ruined would be in there demanding every handout they felt ‘the gummit’ should supply.) I’d like to see John Howard come out and say that the Australian Government will take a look at the circumstances surrounding each of the people who’ve been on television lambasting the Australian Government for not sending in Australian troops (!!) and consular officials into the area in the first days against the express wishes of American authorities with a view of sending them (the tourists) a bill for any expenses incurred by both Australian and American authorities.

However poor those excuses may appear with 20/20 hindsight, the poor and needy Americans who stayed in the city and surrounding towns after the evacuation order had been issued at least had the excuse that they couldn’t afford to move out or felt they needed to protect their property or possessions. The foreign tourists had no such excuses and rather than be treated as heroes, they should be given, along with a bill, the very public lambasting they are giving the government.

[compressor stall]

Not everyone had the ability to leave. Flights were cancelled, busses full etc.

Walking wouldn't have acheived much.

CS

[Woomera]

OK but let's keep it constructive and to the point.

W

[Brian Abraham]

Last nights TV news had an interview with two gals who had flown into NO not knowing of the situation and on being appraised of the situation could not get out - seemed they had flown in on one of the last arrivals. Extracted with the help of a TV crew.

[Dark Knight]

BA.
What Rubbish! Every US airport has TV's everywhere broadcasting Fox, CNN and local news 24 hours a day.


These peole did not see any TV?
Admitted they were delayed getting into NO. Whilst they were waiting did not go anywhere near the bookshops and could not see Newspaper headlines?

Wiley tells it exactly as it is.

Wherever we go in the world we have a resposibility to ourselves and if we are stupid and dumb enough to carry drugs, not check what is going on where we propose to travel then be it on our own heads and don't whinge if you are caught or it all turns to grubs.

In each and every country we visit we have been granted permission and the privilege to be guest in that country and are obliged to obey their laws.

We should also understand that country is obligated to look after their own people first and foremost - No questiions asked!

it should be fully expected of people entering our country to understand it is the same here and they should respect the priviledge and permission we grant them and they are obligated to obey our laws.

Enough is enough - stop the whinging and whining and sounding like the `Sisters of Whinge and Whine' (Macklin & Gillard) and start accepting some personal resonsibility.

Yes; Charge them for every cent it cost.

DK

ps>> as for Mr Beasley's suggestion of pre-emptive strikes this just illustrates he has finally and totally lost the plot!

[Andu]

Yeah, just loved Beasley’ suggestion (demand?) that the Oz military staff from Washington should truck on down to Louisiana to get the silly damned Australian tourists out - in direct opposition to US Federal, State and local government policies at the time. (That used to be called an act of war, I believe, foreign troops operting in a soverign land against the wishes of its government.)

My God, and this is the bloke damn near 50% of the Australian population wants to lead the nation? Wiley’s got to right. There might have been a very small number who were caught out through no fault of their own, (although the circumstances of how a tourist could be eludes me), but the vast majority need to asked some hard questions on camera and presented with a hefty bill.

Notice to editors of Australian women’s magazines who’ll be tripping over themselves to get the exclusive rights for these idiots' stories: spin your stories to the tune of how INCREDIBLY STUPID these people were and how they UNNECESSARILY distracted rescue services and Australian consular officials at a time when they could have been using their limited resources to far better effect elsewhere.

[tinpis]

What do we do with the ones cant pay?

[Dark Knight]

They could afford a ticket to go in the first place and as I understand it, entry into the US and most countries as a tourist, requires a return ticket.

If you are travelling to the US and Europe you understand (unless you are real dumb, stupid or both) it aint going to be done on the cheap.

Let them use Visa, Mastercard, garnishee their wage or put them to work to earn enough to pay for thier rescue.!

Why should the taxpayer keep supporting people who refuse to accept resposibility for their actions.

DK

[ITCZ]

Feel the love.

:sad:

[maxter]

Tinpis

thats obvious. Shoot them, their looters if they don't pay.

Seriously though, I guess we do not really know the circumstances they were in. Hindsight, or the comfort of the lounge rooms, makes for easy judgment. Did the Aus. government actually occur any cost to get these people out anyway? I thought the complaint was, from couple of them at least, that nothing was done to help.

We all make mistakes and we need to have some compassion for people who may have made a mistake. We do not charge for beach rescues even if they are out of the flagged area, or rescue services for car accidents etc. I certainly don't wish to live in a society that wants to cost every small service provided to us to the last cent. I have enough trouble with red-tape within my business as it is. I certainly do't wish to fill out more forms. I had better stop here before I explode over this issue (red-tape)

[SkySista]

Andu,

I just hope if those magazines run the stories (as they probably will...0 that they waive any "fee" to the person concerned and give it to the relief fund...

As for sending Aus troops/ consular officials in..... if the situation were reversed and Australia asked US to stay out (yeah like that'd happen :rolleyes: ) if the US barged in I'm sure it would be considered a hostile action. As someone before me rightly pointed out technically it'd be an act of war. Sometimes the govt of the area concerned actually does know better; they know the area and the situation (even if not very informed in the early stages) they still know it better than the Aussies likely would have.

Not sure about asking them to pay; perhaps reconsidering future visas granted might do the trick? :E Seriously though a few months down the road when things are relatively in order again maybe some of these 'young Aussie heroes" will go back to volunteer and rebuild....?

[gatfield]

Didn't they just catch normal flights back? Wouldn't have they had return tickets anyway?

Call me insensitive, but quiet a few of them seemed like a bunch of sooks, not heroes.

[Chocks Away]

Yeh, bunch of sooks is right!

What ever happened to being responsible for your own actions?:confused:

Those young Oz travelers interviewed, who were bagging the Gov for not dropping everything to rescue them, need a good hard look at themselves in a room full of mirrors and grow up.

They need to realise the world does not revolve around them, disaster or not. They are adults so need to grow a spine and accept responsibility for their own travels.

Sure, the Gov does have duty to assist it's rate payers overseas if needed but when it's restricted from doing so, you can't bag them.

Could go on about many issues about New Orleans but I'll save my breath here.

:ok:

[Buster Hyman]

Not sure I'd be charging them for rescue efforts...big can o worms that one, but I'd be taking an issue about their perception of what their Govt.'s role is in these situations.

It's the Australian Government, not Thomas Cook for cryin' out loud! Every time something happens OS, somehow, the Australian Govt. gets apportioned some blame. In fairness, if I was in their position, I'd really appreciate their assistance, but I wouldn't expect it! Obviously, the welfare state extends beyond our shores.:hmm:

[Chocks Away]

Much better said, than my rant, BH.:ok:

[OZcabincrew]

well i think the Australian Govt. are doing a good job. The Australians stuck over there need to understand that there are procedures in place that have to be followed and a lot of red tape between the Aust. and US governments. The way they were all talking was as if they thought the Aust. Govt should have flown in a plane to pick up all the Aussies and take them home the day after it happened. I know it's a hard time for them, but they need a little patience, things can't just happen at the click of a finger!

just my opinion anyway.

Oz

[tinpis]

They have located the young Aussie missing in New Orleans
Hes in the slammer in Alabama
:uhoh:

[Brian Abraham]

Dark Knight
Don't be so impertinent. I've spent more time wandering national caverns called airports than I care to remember. When I'm on hols as these girls were WWWIII could start and be won/lost before I'd find out about it. And watch US TV - now you are joking (I hope). Ditto for the print media.

[heated ice detector]

I understood that when you are overseas on your aussie passport you have the full protection of the consular,
I am disapointed that the Aus gov challenger and BBJ are not used for these purposes, speed can be vital, and I am sure a Politician could fly mainline for a couple of days if he had to whilst his a/c was away.
I remember being disgusted at the time of the Bali bombing when the injured were made to fly in Hercs for ten plus hours to Perth hospitals 3-4 hours to Darwin and the GG Holingworth was using a chalenger in Galipoli and the PM set off to Mexico a few days after to some comference. as far as I know neither offered their aircraft to help the injured get a faster trip to a burns unit.
Maybe they were not available or there is another reason that they were not used but I suspect it was ego and they probably did'nt want the great unwashed bleeding on their carpets however I could be wrong.

[ftrplt]

I remember being disgusted at the time of the Bali bombing when the injured were made to fly in Hercs for ten plus hours to Perth hospitals 3-4 hours to Darwin and the GG Holingworth was using a chalenger in Galipoli and the PM set off to Mexico a few days after to some comference. as far as I know neither offered their aircraft to help the injured get a faster trip to a burns unit.

you cant set up a Challenger in an Aeromed config with all the attending medical staff and equipment.

[BlueEagle]

Well, that may be so Brian Abraham, but you can rest assured the check-in staff brought it to their attention, as they had been instructed to do for at least two days prior! :ok:

Edited to at least get the right blokes name in the post!:O

[tinpis]

The parents of the boy knew he was in jail and was being moved to Alabama BEFORE the media frenzy?

[BlueEagle]

Very sorry tinpis! My remark was intended for Brian Abraham , not you at all! Finger trouble!:uhoh:

[heated ice detector]

I am not knocking the herc guys who did a briliant job but I know if I had serious burns and time being a major factor for survival and healing then the prospects of a few hours in a jet or many hours in a rattly herc do not compare,
At times of need, for example the evac of Darwin after Tracy, you do what you have to do, I am sure a couple of docs patients and nurses could be accomodated in a chalenger if they wanted and definately in a BBJ, at least the more urgent cases,.
What are the comparitive flight times, Bali- Perth, Bali-Darwin between a c130 and a BBJ/Chalenger,
Maybe it should be considered in case there is a repeat event somwhere in the world where lots of Aussies gather,

[Wiley]

You can slate John Howard, the GG and the government in general as much as you’re wont to, and in many cases, you’d probably have good grounds for doing so, h.i.d., but you’re way off beam with your criticism of using a Herc for medevac over a business jet, especially if large numbers of evacuees are involved (as they certainly were after the Bali bombing). Even a Challenger will only take a handful of patients, with minimal room for specialist medical personnel and their often bulky equipment (which in many cases, wouldn’t even fit through the jet’s door).

(Someone will undoubtedly correct me if my memory has faded and I’ve got the numbers wrong), but the Herc can take up to 64 litters – although a smaller number is usually carried to make room for the medical staff’s equipment and for patient comfort, as well as to allow the medical staff easier access to each patient. (It’s *** snug with a full compliment of litters!) And the number of medical staff that can be carried on the Herc far outnumbers the number who could be carried on something like a Challenger. A 707 might be faster and more comfortable, (as well as being considerably less noisy in the cabin!), but it requires an inordinate amount of ground support in comparison to the Herc, and that equipment is not always available in a disaster area immediately after the event – and sometimes there isn’t a operational runway in the area that will take a 707 or a Challenger. The Herc can also fly a very long distance maintaining its cabin at sea level, an important consideration with some head injuries. This isn’t feasible with most modern jets.

In many cases, the Herc can also get a lot closer to the event than a jet. During the Vietnam war, 37 Squadron’s E models were able to operate directly from Vung Tau’s 5000’ (very narrow, perforated steel plating) runway, saving the wounded much grief in multiple transfers. In at least one case I recall, they flew a Herc directly into Luscombe, the very small strip at the Australian Task Force’s main base of Nui Dat, to pick up some patients who were too gravely injured to risk the transfer to Vung Tau and Butterworth.

What would you have the Australian Government do, provide incredibly expensive assets to cover each and every manner of crisis with a primary view of providing Business Class comfort to all, or (very sensibly, I would have thought given the limited budget the Australian military and every other government department have always had to deal with), providing assets that would meet as wide a range of circumstances as possible?

----

Back to my original post, I don’t want to see a full cost recovery in this case, but as Andu said, I’d really like to see the media, and particularly the ‘Women’s Weekly’/ ‘Women’s Day’ crowd, get stuck into these people as the fools they undoubtedly were to have stayed – or in some cases, flown into the place – after a mandatory evacuation order was given, rather than treat them like **** heroes.

[pakeha-boy]

Dark knight you are a jack-arse!!!!!......I have just finished flying 3 trips in and out of houston and New orleans,when we could get in ...these are flights that I have donated my time,plus my F/o and Flight Attendants ..on our days off...the company has supplied 3 A320,s to help in these efforts......we are picking up desperate people and flying them to Houston....you have know Idea what the FCUK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!...these people are not looking for handouts,they are looking for compassion and basic human help and courtsey in a very tough situation .....nobody needs to pay,because those that can ..would...hopefully you have been watching telly and have seen the devastation.....mate!! its bloody real......I am only a small spoke in the wheel doing my part,and as a kiwi are bloody proud to be able to help,,,,as much as I give aussies a bloody hard time,,,I would be the first to give my shirt off my back to one in need......show some compassion......get off you "white horse" and join the real world...... I rest my case......hoki-mai

Dark Knight is equally entitled to his view as are you, it is not necessary for you to abuse him to make your point . Your personal efforts are no doubt keenly appreciated but lets keep the issues separate.
From where I sit watching, it seems the thread is clearly about taking personal responsibility for ones actions.
Settle down, your point is diminished by your language.

[maxgrad]

Heated Ice Detector.
If you put the worst cases as you say in a fast jet that is not set for medivac, you will most probably cause them more damage, at worst kill them!
A Herc may be slower but the mediacl config. is used for a reason. Access to medical gear, patients and safety to all concerned. Medical facilities are designed for ease of use, fast application, good access and many other role specific tasks, now put that into a metal tube that is moving and has reduced space, along with altitude requirements and you start touching the surface of medivac flights.
You want to get into a thrown together set up that will tranport wha is left of you to a hospital....GOOD LUCK, you will need it!

[HotDog]

I couldn't stop making this comparison..

inches of rain in New Orleans due to hurricane Katrina... 18
inches of rain in Mumbai (July 27th).... 37.1

population of New Orleans... 484,674
population of Mumbai.... 12,622,500

deaths in New Orleans within 48 hours of Katrina...100
deaths in Mumbai within 48hours of rain.. 37.

number of people to be evacuated in New Orleans... entire city..
number of people evacuated in Mumbai...10,000

Cases of shooting and violence in New Orleans...Countless
Cases of shooting and violence in Mumbai.. NONE

Time taken for US army to reach New Orleans... 48hours
Time taken for Indian army and navy to reach Mumbai...12hours

status 48hours later...New Orleans is still waiting for relief,
army and electricity

status 48hours later..Mumbai is! back on its feet and is
business as usual

USA...world's most developed nation
India...third world country..

oops...did I get the last fact wrong???

To be fair, the geographic situation of New Orleans is vastly different from Mumbai but the first 48 hours of comparison is very valid.

[ftrplt]

HotDog,

Wind strength in Now Orleans - cyclonic
Wind strength in Mumbai - not signficant (?)

Water holding characteristics in New Orleans - like a bathtub
Water holding characteristics in Mumbai - self draining

[HotDog]

I did say the geographic situation is very different in Mumbai.

[gaunty]

I'm with Wiley on this one.

I've spent more time than I wished sitting around US airport terminal lounges, coffee shops and bars, it is totally incomprehensible to me that those who flew in before, were not aware of Katrina or ignored the check in advice.

As most of you are aware, there are TVs EVERYWHERE with non stop ESPN, CNN, Fox you name it.
My Foxtel here was chock a block full of it for days before.

I even posted a pic from the satellite [QUOTE] Hurcn Katrina one bad ass girl
This is apparently building up to be the Hurricane of the Century./QUOTE]
on the 29th August.
I'm not suggesting they should be reading PPRuNe for their travel advice simply pointing out that it was hardly buried on page 62 before the sports pages.

Maybe they were vicarious thrillseekers looking for some hometown celebrity, maybe they thought a hurricane was part of the "experience", you can watch em on Foxtel and you don't see anyone get hurt. :rolleyes: who knows.
Maybe we are so used to seeing disaster on TV we think of them as some form of "thrillseekers" entertainment.

mrs gaunty commented last night that the parents of the kid in the slammer must be feeling a bit stupid after their performance slamming the Govt et al, my response was probably not, stupid is as stupid does.:rolleyes:

I do understand how they feel, my young brother and his wife were wiped out in Nightcliffe in Tracey and with a fleet of aircraft at my disposal it was very very hard to convince my father early that Christmas morning, that it was not in his nor my brothers best interests, nor would I fly him or anybody in, until the relief people got organised.
And that in any event available seats would be used to get people out not in.
It was very traumatic for him (ex WW2 RAAF Lancaster) and my mother (both usually very calm and super rational people) and relations were a bit strained for a while.

But they were residents, tourists flying in are entirely another issue.

My guess is next time the airlines will under certain conditions refuse to fly them.

[Brian Abraham]

check-in staff brought it to their attention, as they had been instructed to do for at least two days prior!

Edited to at least get the right blokes name in the post!

BlueEagle
Thats what one would expect and was a question in my mind. Once again proof not to believe too much of what the media puts forth. - always more to the story.

PS after two attempts you have still to get the name right - a common error and one I'm used to but does annoy just the same.

[tinpis]

:ooh: You just reminded me gaunty we fast approaching another Cyclone season.
Dont want one but boy we could sure use some rain for a change.
Tins old house went thru Tracy only lost part of the roof and verandah.
I have stiffened it up a bit since then and its parked on top of one of only a few hills in Darwhine so if the floods reach me here kiss yer arse goodbye in Alice Springs.

[Dark Knight]

pakeha-boy.

I know exactly what I am talking about as I was flying people out of Darwin without pay, etc, when it was devasted by Cyclone Tracy which occurred probably before you had a licence.

(256 bodies in a B-727-200?)

The point is we have bred a set of whinging, bleeding hearts down here who refuse to accept of take responsibilty for themselves and their actions.

When it goes wrong the first thing they do is blame the government whose fault it defintely is and want the government to spend taxpayers money to bail them out.

I am talking about stupid, dumb Aussie tourists who are continually getting themselves into trouble around the world for the above reasons.

For the genuine people affected by this I understand perfectly and wish I could do more to help having already contributed before writing my post.

DK

[gaunty]

tinpis

Yeah my memory is not that flash on it now, but it did take a little while before they were able to mobilise the relief effort.
First priority was to get everyone out.

Young brother was a minor wheel in Transport and Works and a Capt in the Army reserves at the time. But they shipped him and every one else out for health reasons until they could get a grip on the situation.
The clean up was the biggest job with rotten food disposal and disease suppression the priority.
But then you know that.
He was one of the first back in to support the reconstruction of the new Darwin and was there for many years until he was sent down to run the Alice and build new Uluru the road and the airport.
That wasn't your Holden in the Travelodge pool after the Christmas Party perchance, good thing the Cyclone came along to make it look like that tart Tracy dunnit? :E

[Andu]

Any reader have a contact at any one of the women's magazines? Maybe he/she could send the link to this thread to that contact.

Wouldn't it be luverly to see a multi page spread with photos telling the housewives of Australia what idiots these people were rather than giving them the typical 'Hello!' magazine gushy-gushy treatment.

[Dark Knight]

Brian Abraham (hope I got his name correct?)

You probably don't read the notices, in BIG print, telling you importation or possession of drugs is subject to the Death penalty either.

(this does not to imply you carry or use them)

DK

[gaunty]

Dark Knight which sadly points up the wisdom of that old saw.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him enjoy the view":{

It also points up a certain arrogance in young Aussie travellers, they think somehow the local rules don't apply to them also.

[Brian Abraham]

Dark Knight let me tell you of my drug education. My crew chief was leaning over my shoulder through the open door while we did the cool down. The next thing I knew he was lying flat on his back on the ground and I thought ‘silly bugger’. When I saw the blood I came to subsequently realise that an M16 round had penetrated the skins of the open door and hit him in the hip. The base CO apprehended the offender who had been shooting up the flight line and took him for a drive to view the shrubbery outside the main gate. The CO returned solo, Asian justice in this case was to the point. I also had cause to have one of my crew be sent to serve a time in Leavenworth for his indiscretion in shooting up targets against orders. Two ground crew settled an argument over drugs by one giving the other a gut shot with a 45. And I got some what sick and tired of risking myself, crew and aircraft doing combat medevacs of what turned out to be OD’ed grunts. What has been your experience?

I also remember 74 and Tracy very well. At the time I was staff officer to the boss of flying Nowra. We spent the time first of all getting everyone back to work through the media. (God forbid anyone should attack over Xmas – every one on leave). Wessex crews were sent to the carrier which then sailed for Darwin. Food and medical supplies were organised locally and flown to Darwin by HS748 and continued for a period of time that escapes me (31 years is far too long for anyone to recall). I think anyone who had a hand in Tracy can stand proud. Qantas probably still holds the record for the number of bodies lifted by a 747.

Woomera You do a great job in the difficult moderating task but I think you can cut pakea-boy some slack. As you say everyone is entitled to an opinion and paqkea-boy is fresh from the heat of battle and his observation perhaps for the first time of the misery of the human in such extremis conditio

[BlueEagle]

Brian, spelling now sorted! Sorry about that.

I think Gaunty hit it on the head when he spoke of the arrogance of youth, how often have we seen them giving the 'bird' to authority without actually having a clue about the dangers that may confront them? Hoons in high powered cars they have no idea how to drive for a start!:rolleyes:

[Brian Abraham]

pakeha-boy
My apologies for my inability to spell - and I took another member to task for the same reason. Thumbs up for your efforts and of your airline and fellow crewmembers.
Blue Skies,
Brian

[pakeha-boy]

womerra....if your looking for an apology forget it!!!!!....Iappreciate the fact that dark knight is entitled to a view,in this buisness(airline) we deal with idiots all day....we take the responsilbilty of taking care of these idiots al the time.....who cares if they are dumb aussie tourists,these types of things (idiotic actions)have been going forever.....they will continue....the overiding factor here is the saftey of these people,.....DK if you dont like listening to their bleating.dont listen to it.....I get tired of having to pay for their cockups as well,the thread wasnt meant to be "deeply" personal......by the way I got my license in 1976 so your right,...IM A ROOKIE:{ ........

[tinpis]

:p gaunty sorry i might have given the impression i was here during tracy.I was in fact in PNG.
My old house(current) certainly was and was one of the very few left standing.
It was built by the old Greek construction method of farkin big planks and the weight held most everything down.
Missus tin moved up here in 75 and what you say about the rest is correct.
Lotta funny stories... old Namo a ground engineer spent the entire night on the tarmac during the storm sittin on a tug towing a DC3 around and keeping it pointed into wind :ok:

[heated ice detector]

Wiley, I am glad that you were not in charge of Darwins evac as I imagine you would of incouraged no seat no ride.
I am not refering to a war time senario but Bali international airport and a speedier removal of injured people in either a chalenger a/c or a 737 BBJ.
Can anyone tell me the flight time of a herc from Bali to Perth, I thought it was about 14 hrs, Thats a lot of hours for infection to set in, wheras it would be 5 or so hours in a BBJ.
I did write to a couple of MPs shortly after the incident to see if the a/c would be considered for a quick change conversion but no reply. if the world that they keep portraying remains this dangerous troubled place then I think a better evac a/c should be considered.

[ftrplt]

HID,

you are refusing to see the reality - a business jet is useless for any patient evacuation that is any more serious than a broken finger nail.

Having been in the headquarters before, if one of the VIP acft was considered useful, it would have been used.

Evacuating people who are healthy but nowhere to live (darwin), is entirely different to evacuating burns victims from the scene of a bomb blast (bali)

[Diesel Fitter]

Note to Pakeha_boy - strong language by Kiwis is obviously not tolerated here.

OTOH extremist redneck views peppered with **** by sun-bronzed Aussies is clearly acceptable.

All things considered a thoroughly disgusting and disgraceful thread filled with generalizations and vilification of fellow Aussies with scant regard for the individual circumstances in which they found themselves in Katrinas path.

[pakeha-boy]

to all those offended by my language my opologies.....this is an emotional time and subject to which I have found my self a part of.......flew another load into houston....150 individuals,....these people are "broken"...demoralised....and lost......I have a real hard time understanding,that even if some of these individuals are idiots .....that some members of this forum feel the need to belittle these "idiots" for their actions and decisions that you or I would not have taken...ie stayed in New Oleans.....whether it be they are pom/aussie/kiwi or just the locals.....the need to get past whether these "idiots" should have been there or not is irrelavent....the fact is ..they are...and they need our/my/your help.......I dont care to beat this subject like a dead horse,I like you, hope those that survived can get on with their lives.....I only hope that none of you find yourselves or family in this type of situation.....it is a very sad thing indeed.....kia kaha

[Fubaar]

All things considered a thoroughly disgusting and disgraceful thread filled with generalizations and vilification of fellow Aussies with scant regard for the individual circumstances in which they found themselves in Katrinas path. Pray give us what "individual circumstances" would "force" a **** backpacker (or any tourist) to remain (or **** GO TO!!!!) a city after a mandatory evacuation order was given?

Give me strength!

To borrow from another thread (on Jetblast): Complacency ruled. The Weather Channel even reported that tourists were happy the mayor wasn't making them leave. (The whole post that quote comes from is worth reading.) See http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=189402&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

[pakeha-boy]

fubaar.....point noted...but that is the exception rather than the rule...what is being said on the "news" and what is being said on the ground are two different things.........this whole situation has been a cluster**** from the start ,and your point is a valid one.....one of the major problems associated with before and after this "sagarso" has been the abilty(of those in charge) to effectivly communicate to said individuals about the severity of this situation.....I might add...in the last 3-4 years evacuations were given of other other impending storms that amounted to nothing ....this in effect gave people a very lazy attitude to other predictions....for you and I..."the writing was on the wall"......respectfully, I can only agree with diesel fitter 100% ....hakawa .

note to Brian Abraham.....thanks for the post...tene koutou

[7gcbc]

good for you pakeha-boy.

good luck with it.

[Brian Abraham]

Woomera, was going to say sorry for the bomb I set off and retire to the bomb shelter to go over the philosophy notes, but the philosophy does seem to have worked in the end.

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavouring to stifle is a false opinion; and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still

To deprecate the value of intellectual freedom because it will never mean for everybody the same possibility of independent thought is completely to miss the reasons which give intellectual freedom its value. What is essential to make it serve its function as the prime mover of intellectual progress is not that everybody may be able to think or write anything, but that any cause or idea may be argued by somebody. So long as dissent is not suppressed, there will always be some who will query the ideas ruling their contemporaries and put new ideas to the test of argument and propaganda. This interaction of individuals, possessing different knowledge and different views, is what constitutes the life of thought. The growth of reason is a social process based on the existence of such differences

Nothing is more corrective to our snobberies and our tendency to prejudge people in terms of their looks, accents, race, education and age than eyeball to eyeball contact.

[NIMFLT]

What is there to repay? What did the oz govt do for these people?

The media reports I have seen show them getting out of N.O. with media or on US buses then flying home on their own accord.

The australian govt. provided very limited consular assistance which is all that they could provide under the circumstances.

These people were caught up in a horrific tragedy and some compassion and empathy are required IMHO.

[Woomera]

Eeerm why don't we cut the emotive Woomera dun us (insert kiwi or aussie according to your sensibility) wrong/curtailing dissent crapola.

I simply pointed out that it is possible to disagree with someone without calling them a f@ckhead.
As you say everyone is entitled to an opinion and paqkea-boy is fresh from the heat of battle and his observation perhaps for the first time of the misery of the human in such extremis condition point taken, slack cut.

The thread subject is about whether Australian tourists should be billed for their rescue.
I understood the underlying context to be "if they went to New Orleans despite the warnings".

The issues surrounding the evacuation of the permanent residents and all hail to pakeha-boy and the thousands of others involved, is another matter altogether.

I guess an extension of the question raised in this thread is whether the resources, time and emotional energy expended on the tourists plight might have been better utilised on the residents had they not been there.
I also cannot avoid making the observation that the selfish ??wailings of those tourists would appear to be particularly insensitive given the difference between their circumstances and the locals.
pakeha-boy is probably the most qualified to pass comment on this.

I always understood that as a tourist in another country you should conduct yourself as if you were a guest in somebody elses home and only had the "rights" usually associated with that status. . It maybe an old fashioned idea in this globalised :rolleyes: world but may be something worth reconsidering.

[Wiley]

I probably need to explain what set me to starting this thread. It was the interview with the five(?) young Australian backpackers who Channel 7 rescued from the NO Convention Centre. I never for one moment believed once cent would ever be collected (or indeed asked) of these or other unfortunate victims / hapless individuals / whining, idiotic clowns.

Wommera makes the point better than I did when he said: I guess an extension of the question raised in this thread is whether the resources, time and emotional energy expended on the tourists plight might have been better utilised on the residents had they not been there. As someone who has spent quite some time in a previous life pulling people off rooftops in very similar circumstances – and who has had friends and colleagues killed doing the same thing – I have to admit to getting a little emotional at seeing individuals [i]who had no good reason being there whining about the lack of Australian ‘gummint’ support they believed was their immediate and God-given right after what can only be classed as their stupidity got them into a situation requiring ‘gummint’ support at a time when the Australian consular officers and the local emergency services could have been far better employed helping others with infinitely better excuses for being there.

End of rant.

[BlueEagle]

They should pay the people/organisation that rescued them, for their rescue , don't think anyone has suggested paying the Australian government.

[Diesel Fitter]

I cannot but shake my head in disbelief that Wiley has launched such a vitriolic attack on the 50 or so Aussie tourists based as he now belatedly admits on a single trashy TV interview with a small group of whingers.

And to Fubaar who has obviously researched the subject about as thoroughly as Wiley asks

Pray give us what "individual circumstances" would "force" a **** backpacker (or any tourist) to remain (or **** GO TO!!!!) a city after a mandatory evacuation order was given?

Well, for starters Fubaar, I am totally unaware of any Aussies who ****ing went there after a mandatory evacuation order was given and I challenge you to provide examples! Hint - the couple who were advised to flee to NO as Katrina approached Florida is not one you are free to choose.

Secondly, can I suggest to you that the fact that flights out stopped BEFORE the mandatory evacuation order was given may have hindered efforts to escape?

Ditto being directed to seek shelter in the Superdome BEFORE Katrina hit, then held there regardless ?

Ditto having a pistol shoved up your nose preventing you boarding a bus out - despite having waited patiently in line for hours?

Ditto unavailability of hire cars well BEFORE the mandatory evacuation order was given ?

Ditto unavailability of gas/petrol even if you found a hire car?

Ditto the elderly wheelchair bound Aussie prostate cancer sufferer - he was not a not a ****ing backpacker (as you choose to define them) but he did absorb consular resources?

Ditto Aussie/Brit/NZ touristsbeing firstly prevented from leaving the Superdome to which they had been directed BEFORE the mandatory evacuation order was given then later marched out under cover of darkness by armed National Guard (who I hasten to add had the best interests of the tourists at heart) to a hotel lobby and warned by these same NG not to venture out?

I could go on at length but I must say I doubt if it worth investing further time and effort into convincing those who are prepared to whip themselves into a frenzy of vitriolic abuse against fellow citizens adrift in a warm stinking putrid sea of faeces, blood, garbage, bloated bodies, child rape, murder and robbery.

All apparently based as we belatedly learn on a single trashy TV vox pop.

Get a life and get over it Wiley, DK, Fubaar et al.

[Eastwest Loco]

Back on the original thread, any Australian with a brain and a responsible Travel Agent would have travel insurance. This, assuming they can contact the company with infrastructure down in the area would have ensured evacuation. If there are any instances of non performance, please let me lnow as I need that kind of info.

If you can't afford the insurance, you can't afford to go is my usual line.

I have a client who got home from Mobile Alabama a day before the beasty hit. His biggest worry was the thousands of people who live in the bayou or swamp areas. They have just been forgotten. 'Gators having a big ole party.

His call on the matter was that those who didn't get out were black or southerners, and basically don't matter to the mainstream US.

Perception is everything - they are nothing. Typical!!!

I had a little grin over Cuba offering 1100 (Soviet Trained and no doubt excellent) doctors and medicine. Time Georgie gotover himself and took care of his people.

Well done to all those who are working their butts off to make up for a drop kick government.

Best all

EWL

[rockarpee]

I make no apoliges as an ozzie tax payer, even if i may have stuffed up on a point of judgement,that i WILL be helped out by my fellow ozzie mates, this is an easy call and i would not expect any less from my fellow countrmen/women.

[Sheep Guts]

A terrible catastrophe. No one can really put blame on anyone. Alot of these people who were left were destitute and very poor. New Orleans is one of the poorest town in the states along with Detroit and others.


We have to be thankfull that the US did so much so soon they airlifted out by helo around 11000 in the first day. No one seems to acknowledge this. BBC still harp on about Bush being resposible for the storm himself. Get a grip guys just report the facts.

If Katrina hit London imagine the damage and catastrophe.

God help all those who helped and those who are still helping them

Sheep

[pakeha-boy]

woomera.....point taken on the name calling....and no, it is not old school to behave in someones else,s back yard....as a green card holder and visitor working in this country I am a walking advert for NZ and try to promote courtious values......your point regarding whether or not time/resources/energy etc should have been spent on so-called tourists is in the "wrong" direction......why?...because I fly into New Orleans on a Regular basis.....let me tell who goes to New Orleans mate....it is people like you and I....americans,and mostly people(tourists) that come from other countries to savour the New Orleans flavour....and since these people spend huge amounts of $$$$$$ in this city...to make this city run......have in no way diminished their rights to recieve a different "status" than any body else....I dont care to discuss the USA race relation problems that are now surfacing....that is a internal issue......ALL OF THESE PEOPLE,SHOULD RECIEVE THE SAME STATUS.....its called human decancyand compassion...... something this subject is lacking.........ukuikui ai ki te hoaka.(persistence pays off)

[Lodown]

HID, good intentions, but not very practical. What several posters are saying is that the C130 IS the hospital, albeit a mobile one. It might not have all the facilities of a fixed-base hospital but pretty close to it. Your suggestion is to send a limosine to an accident rather than the ambulance.

[nasa]

I personally have a problem with suggesting that these people pay a price for their rescue (sic). I have a bigger problem believing that the “Press” was in some way responsible for their rescue. Having been at the sharp end when Tracey struck, I can tell you that one of the greatest satisfactions I got out of that tragedy was picking up a journalist and throwing him bodily out of the AM Terminal at Amberly. I can also tell you that the Yanks were bloody marvelous. We had a C141 that suffered a slight “dent” when a load of roofing Iron slid off a K Loader into the tail ramp. The Yank walked back into the terminal, picked up the phone and ordered another be delivered ASAP. Like everyone else, I’ve witnessed the blame game shifting and I thought the following basically gives an alternate view to what I’ve been reading the past week or more. An apology if this has been posted elsewhere.

What is not included below is that Mayor Nagin had still not ordered a mandatory evacuation by Saturday night, even after a call from the National Hurricane Center urging him to do so. Only after President Bush called him Sunday morning did he issue the order. Still the city transit busses and school busses did not move from their parking lots.
The majority of the responsibility for this disastrous response lies squarely with the Mayor and the governor - not President Bush or FEMA. What we have here is political correctness at its worst. Liberals do not want to place the blame on a black mayor and a female governor where it clearly rests. As one commentator said - we had a mayor with a plan, but no preparation and zero response to execute it and a governor who was at the State EOC clueless and sobbing.

*********
Reprinted from NewsMax.com
Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005 12:47 p.m. EDT
Gov. Kathleen Blanco: No State of Emergency
Though her state has been devastated by Hurricane Katrina and thousands are believed dead in New Orleans, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco has yet to declare a state of emergency and refuses to cede authority over rescue efforts to the federal government.

"Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans," the Washington Post reported in Sunday editions. Gov. Blanco's office rejected the request, the paper said - concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law.
The Louisiana Democrat has also failed to declare a state of emergency - in marked contrast to Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour and Alabama Gov. Bob Riley, who both issued emergency declarations before Hurricane Katrina struck.
State and federal officials also told the Post that Gov. Blanco did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday - more than 24 hours after breaches in New Orleans levee system had flooded the city and killed thousands.
Don't Blame Bush for Katrina
Christopher Ruddy
Monday, Sept. 5, 2005
George Bush and the federal government are not to blame for the disaster we have witnessed in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
In fact, the primary responsibility for the disaster response lies with New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco and other local officials.
Yet leading Democrats and their allies in the major media are clearly using this disaster for political purposes and ignoring one obvious fact.
This fact – which needs to be repeated and remembered – is that in our country, state and local governments have primary responsibility in dealing with local disasters.
The founding fathers devised a federal system of government – one that has served us remarkably well through great disasters that have befallen America over more than two centuries.
But if we believe the major TV networks, George Bush, FEMA and the Republicans in Congress are all to blame for the current nightmare.
Let's remember that FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was created only in 1979. It was formed to coordinate and focus federal response to major disasters – to "assist" local and state governments.
Common sense suggests that local and state governments are best able to prepare and plan for local disasters.
Is a Washington bureaucrat better suited to prepare for an earthquake in San Francisco, a hurricane in Florida, or a terrorist act in New York?
After the Sept. 11 attacks against the World Trade Center, no one suggested that the Bush administration should have been responsible for New York's disaster response or that federal agents should have been involved in the rescue of those trapped in the buildings.
Last year, four major hurricanes slammed into Florida. Governor Jeb Bush led the disaster response and did a remarkable job, with nothing happening like what we have seen in New Orleans.
The primary response in disasters has always come from local communities and state governments.
First responders and the manpower to deal with emergencies come from local communities: police, fire and medical. Under our federal system, these local departments answer to local authorities, not those in Washington. These first responders are not even under federal control, nor do they have to follow federal orders.
In addition to local responders, every state in the Union has a National Guard.
State National Guards answer first to the governor of each state, not to the president. The National Guard exists not to defend one state from an invasion by another state, but primarily for emergencies like the one we have witnessed in New Orleans and in other areas impacted by Katrina. (See: http://www.arng.army.mil/about_us/organization/command_structure.asp)
Tim Russert and the Blame Game
The media would have you believe that this disaster was worsened by a slow response from President Bush and his administration, though the primary responsibility for disaster response has always been with local and state governments.
It is true that federal response was not as fast as it could have been. The president himself has acknowledged that fact.
But the press has focused on the first 48 hours of federal response, not uttering a word about the fact that New Orleans had 48 hours of warning that a major Category 4 or 5 would make landfall near the city, yet local officials apparently did little to prepare.
Obviously, Gov. Blanco did not effectively deploy her state's National Guard.
And New Orleans' city leaders did almost nothing to evacuate the portion of the population with no transportation. In failing to follow their own evacuation plan, these officials did little to pre-position food, water and personnel to deal with the aftermath.
I was surprised Sunday to watch Tim Russert, on his show "Meet the Press," tear into Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff. During his encounter with Chertoff, Russert did not suggest once that local government had any role in dealing with the disaster. Russert also asked for Chertoff's resignation.
It wasn't until after the first 29 minutes of his show – 29 minutes – that Russert raised the question of local responsibility. And when he did so with Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard, he did so in a passing way. Broussard brushed off his question with a non-answer.
Broussard began his interview claiming that the nation had "abandoned" New Orleans.
That is nonsense and a lie.
Broussard, who was never identified by "Meet the Press" as a Democrat, spent much of his time attacking the Bush administration, as has Democratic New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin.
Broussard then ended his performance as he collapsed in tears with a demand: "For God's sake, just shut up and send us the money!"
His tears didn't wash with me. My sympathies lie with the tens of thousands of people who have suffered or died because local officials like Broussard, Mayor Nagin and Governor Kathleen Blanco, also a Democrat, failed monumentally at their jobs.
As former New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial told Russert, the disaster in New Orleans was "foreseeable."
In fact, New Orleans has long known that such a disaster could take place if a major hurricane hit the city.
The municipality even prepared its own "City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan."
The plan makes it evident that New Orleans knew that evacuation of the civilian population was the primary responsibility of the city – not the federal government.
The city plan acknowledges its responsibility in the document:
As established by the City of New Orleans Charter, the government has jurisdiction and responsibility in disaster response. City government shall coordinate its efforts through the Office of Emergency Preparedness.
The city document also makes clear that decisions involving a proper and orderly evacuation lie with the governor, mayor and local authorities. Nowhere is the president or federal government even mentioned:
The authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane is conferred to the Governor by Louisiana Statute. The Governor is granted the power to direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from a stricken or threatened area within the State, if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery. The same power to order an evacuation conferred upon the Governor is also delegated to each political subdivision of the State by Executive Order. This authority empowers the chief elected official of New Orleans, the Mayor of New Orleans, to order the evacuation of the parish residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.
It is clear the city also recognized that it would need to move large portions of its population, and it would need to prepare for such an eventuality:
The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed. ...
Evacuation procedures for small scale and localized evacuations are conducted per the SOPs of the New Orleans Fire Department and the New Orleans Police Department. However, due to the sheer size and number of persons to be evacuated, should a major tropical weather system or other catastrophic event threaten or impact the area, specifically directed long range planning and coordination of resources and responsibilities efforts must be undertaken. [You can read New Orleans' Emergency Plan for hurricanes at its Web site: http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26]
The city's plan also specifically called for the use of city-owned buses and school buses to evacuate the population. These were apparently never deployed, though the Parish of Plaquemines just south of the city evacuated its population using school buses.
The plan, written well before Katrina was even a teardrop in God's eye, was obviously never heeded or implemented by local leaders.
But why should the New Orleans mayor and Governor Blanco take responsibility when they can blame George Bush and the Republicans in Washington?
With congressional elections fast approaching, Democrats who are out of power in every branch of the federal government know they need to change the tide quickly.
They have apparently seized on the Katrina disaster to harm the president politically.
Criticism of the federal government's response is fair and warranted. But putting full responsibility for this disaster on the Bush administration is way over the top.
Primary responsibility for this disaster remains with local officials like Nagin and Blanco, not President Bush.

[Brian Abraham]

Woomera, I nominate you for moderator of the year - any seconders?
Just been going through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina and noting that the mandatory evacuation order was not given until 1011AM Sunday (by which time the airlines had shut down I gather) and Katrina hit at 0610AM Monday I'd have to say no they should not pay. I note that 72 hours warning is supposed to be given. As in my original post the girls had flown in on the Saturday so I would say they were merely unwitting participants.
blue skies to all,
Brian

[Wiley]

Great debating technique in your rather emotive last post, diesel fitter, but I think the the elderly wheelchair bound Aussie prostate cancer sufferer was getting a bit close to “land rights for gay whales”.

No one (at least not this ‘nobody’) objects to providing timely aid to people unfortunate enough to find themselves caught in natural or man-made disasters. Like others who’ve posted on this thread, in my youth I spent quite a bit of time providing that help and don’t begrudge it one iota. But after seeing the way Channel 7 were carrying on about the ‘hero’ backpackers who’d survived what I accept must have been absolute hell in the New Orleans stadium, (and who I knew would be guaranteed a nice little earner and their pikkie from ‘Women’s Weekly’ when they got home), I couldn’t help but ask myself what in the hell they were doing there when (supposedly) a mandatory evacuation order had been given for the city? Subsequent reports have shown that not one word of ‘mandatory’ ‘evacuation’ or ‘order’ was actually what local authorities meant – or enforced – when they were at last dragged screaming into implementing a pale shadow of what they should have done much sooner than they did.

My point remains that if you, as an Australian abroad, ignore travel advisories given by the Australian Government, (there’s one in force for the place my wife, my kids and I - and many, many other Australians - currently live), or evacuation orders given by local authorities, yer pays yer money an’ takes yer chances – you don’t go on television lambasting the Government and demanding that they come to your rescue immediately if not sooner, as the backpackers in question did on this occasion, which is what really got up my nose.

At the risk of major thread creep, could we perhaps have an opinion from diesel fitter and others decrying my original comments about lone sailors who launch off on ridiculously risky adventures (I’m thinking of the Frenchman(?) whose boat foundered in the Great Southern Ocean a couple of years ago as a prime example) and then blithely call in a Mayday and expect the Navy or someone to dispatch a ship some thousands of miles to rescue them?

[Fubaar]

Interesting to see that one of the Aussie blokes who was interviewed after his horrible experiences in New Orleans' superdome was again on TV a day or two ago as he was setting out to return to the Gulf Coast "to thank the people who helped him" - just in time for the arrival of Hurricane Rita(!)