help needed with holds

[machlimter99]

Im currently doing my IR and am stuck with holds. I have been taught that you should start the stop watch when over the beacon and then in the abeam position. The time taken for this is then used for the outbound leg, for instance if it takes 45 secs from over head the beacon to the abeam position then it will take a further 45 secs for the abeam position to end of outbound leg.

However, Im stuck with the concept of a 30 degree gate. I know what it is and that it moves into wind, however, im not sure how signficant it is.

I have been taught that you just use it to monitor if your wide or narrow within the hold. but what if your wide or narrow within the hold what do you do then???

I have also been told that you just slacken or tighen your turn when your inbound, however this doesnt seem correct and is difficult to achieve.


Any pointers guys???:ugh::\

[teto]

lets see if i can help...

the stop watch for the outbound leg starts when abeam the station or when u estabilish the heading, whichever comes later.
for the inbound leg when u estabilish the heading (or pass it to correct, in case u are outside the hold) or when u put the correction heading if u are inside the hold.

plus u halways take time over the station cause its always good to have a reference..u never know...

to correct for the time if u are early (lets say 50 sec inbound leg) you will double the time difference from the standard 1 min and add it to the outbound leg ( so 1min 20 sec outbound leg in this example)..and if ure late (say 1min 10 sec inbound leg) u will take half time difference and substract it to the outbound leg (55 sec in this ex).

for the 30 degrees gate its very simple, its just a way to check ure goin more or less well when ure in the outbound leg (so the leg in which u dont have any other help but the gate....!)..its exactly like a teardop ...so if the holding is standard (right turns) ull subtract 30° to the outbound course and vice versa ull add 30° if its left turn to know where the gate is...
if u are inside the hold ull se the tail of the ADF be on the gate before time, so ull correct to that heading until the end of the outbound leg time and then turn inbound

hope i helped
good luck!

[machlimter99]

What happens then if your wide??

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

If you are wide, then perhaps the wind was stronger than forecast, however, it's not a problem. When you turn inbound to the beacon if you have not established on the inbound QDM within 30 degrees stop the turn. Monitor the RMI and anticipate the turn to establish on the inbound QDM, oh and don't forget the dip!

All the best.

[High Wing Drifter]

I have been taught that you just use it to monitor if your wide or narrow within the hold. but what if your wide or narrow within the hold what do you do then???
As said above really. As all turns are Rate 1, if you are wide then you need to turn beyond the inbound track (over-turn for want of a better word) to intercept the hold QDM from outside hold. If you are narrow then you need to under turn to intercept the hold QDM from inside the hold. In both cases, you need to re-estimate the outbound heading and duration.

In addition you need to adjust your outbound heading and duration to take account of the wind difference.
I have also been told that you just slacken or tighen your turn when your inbound, however this doesnt seem correct and is difficult to achieve.
No. That is wrong. All turns should be at Rate 1 and certainly never greater! It is much easier to quantify the error in the wind and so avoid being in the the same situation at the end of the next orbit.

The cure for all your worries is here in the form of RANT: www.oddsoft.co.uk. At 1/2 the cost practicing holds in an SE it has to be a bargain. And it models the ADF dip.

If you studied at Bristol GS, on your CD is a cute little utility for helping you practice the basic elements of holds in addition to a RANT demo.

Good luck!

[machlimter99]

ignore my ignorance but what do I do with the 30 degree gate when theres a strong wind??

[High Wing Drifter]

With a 45kt crosswind at 120kts, you would need a 45deg offset on the outbound leg and is probably the theoretical maximum wind for that speed. The 30deg wind gate used with 30deg to go to the QDM would, I think, still tell the same story. The 30deg gate at the end of the outbound leg would suggest you are well wide/narrow with such an extreme.

[Capt. Vilo]

Hope this helps.......

As has been said with your Gate if you reach this early on your outbound leg then "fly the gate" for the remaining time e.g. if your outbound trk is 274 your gate 'still wind' is going to be 124 (304) say your outbound time still wind is 60secs if you reach your gate early etc 50secs then fly out hdg 304 for 10secs. I was also taught to carry out 90,60,30deg checks on the turn inbound :- at 90 'to go' you would like to see on your adf inbound +5, with 60deg 'to go' you would like to see inbound trk, with 30 'to go' you would like to see -5deg if this is not seen then you need to "roll out early" if your tight or keep rolling if your wide.
Hope this helps if you need anymore feel free to PM me.....


Mr HORN

[CPL_Ace]

?!?!?!

I'm in the same boat. flying it is easier than figuring it out I reckon.