30th Aug 2005, 11:34
Well, its finally time to bite the bullet and face facts.....
I did my JAR ATPL exams circa 4 years ago now and though I completed my CPL in the time, due to some unfortunate circumstances I was unable to add an I/R to my CPL.
So my question is therefore this....
What do I now need to do to obtain a frozen ATPL ?? As far as I can see I need to re-sit all 14 ATPL exams (nightmare) and then obviously obtain an IR.
I cant seem to find out however if there is any sort of upgrade theory course for those already holding a CPL ?? Some schools have mentioned that a reduced course of study can be done for CPL holders but despite a number of e-mails I'm not getting any responses ? Surely I don't need to do the full 650 hours of study all over again which would be the same as a basic PPL holder and utter madness!
Can anyone shed any light on this as I'm getting nowhere fast, schools don't seem to want to reply and the CAA have been just as evasive. All seems to be a bit of a grey area from what I can tell however I'm sure there are others in the same boat as me.
Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated!
Unfortunately as far as I am aware there is no 'upgrade' course available to you (although someone from a ground school may be able to correct me). I think your options are do the IR exams - this would allow you to add an IR whilst doing fewer exams but not to obtain an ATPL. Or, do all 14 ATPL exams again and then add the IR.
30th Aug 2005, 12:00
You either need to do the IR exams or the ATPLs again. If you decide to do the IR exams only for the IR issue then, according to my understanding, you will need to do the ATPLs again as well before you get your ATPL issued. If you re-take the ATPLs at this stage they will count for the IR and, with an IR issued, the ATPL theory will be 'frozen' in anticipation of you eventually getting an ATPL.
If you ask the CAA on fclweb@<hidden> they will probably insist you to take an approved course for the ATPLs but allow the time taken on the course to be reduced at the discretion of the Head of Training.
31st Aug 2005, 11:14
due to some unfortunate circumstances I was unable to add an I/R to my CPLWhat exactly were your "unfortunate circumstances"? Of course if they were personal, don't post them on a public forum.... but do make sure the CAA know the circumstances, because if it was something which was truly beyond your control maybe they might be a little understanding and lenient?????
31st Aug 2005, 17:57
i dont see why you would have to do the 650 hours of ground school.
surely you could just enroll on a distance learning course and go over it all again in your own time.
31st Aug 2005, 20:47
If you hold a CPL you do not have to sit VFR comms, not much of a reduction of the course but saves you £55 exam fee. Thats about the only benefit you can recieve.
1st Sep 2005, 14:21
FFF - Thanks for the suggestion, wont go into personal details but it was very defiantly beyond my control and a very tough time to go through. Will contact the CAA and see if they can grant an extension but am not holding out much hope!
Smith - Thanks for that, utter madness though !! So after doing the ATPL's already along with another 150hrs flying including a CPL course the only benefit I get is not having to sit the VFR coms exam !!!
It really seems to me that this is a whole grey area that the JAA haven't really thought about.
For example this must surely have a major impact on flight instruction in the future. Many people under the old CAA system as we know have traditionally instructed for a few years to build up hours whilst also saving & studying to undertake an I/R.
Under the JAA system however you have 36months and no more, you must do an I/R or be limited to nothing more that a CPL unless you want to re-sit all the exams again. This would then seem to me that anyone going through the system is basically forced to go from PPL to Frozen ATPL as quickly as possible and therefore to go straight into an airline.
Surely it would make more sense to allow an upgrade from a CPL to ATPL theory by sitting merely the I/R element of exams again?? To be told that despite having done all 14 exams already and holding a CPL that you have effectively no more theoretical knowledge than a PPL seems utterly ridiculous to me!!!
Just out of interest, how many others out there are in or are approaching this same situation? I now know of a handful of others so far and I guess since the JAA system is only around 4 years old these numbers will soon start to increase.
2nd Sep 2005, 09:27
It does seem to be a nonsense, especially as I understand that simply by not doing one of the more trivial exams such as VFR Comms, when doing the others, you can extend significantly, or maybe indefinitely, the validity of the lot?
Edit: Have looked at JAR FCL 1 and it talks of completing the Theory course within 18 months. Now whether this means you have to sit (and pass) all the exams within 18 months, or whether it would be possible to not sit one, or maybe deliberately fail one, to allow you to manage or extend the timescales, would need more knowledge than I can give. Maybe one of the Theory schools can help.
5th Sep 2005, 11:28
The 36 month rule is what you signed up to - but it doesnt make it fair or right as far as the teaching and learning process is concerned.
What is the rationale for the way that this information is deemed by the regulatory bodies to evaporate into thin air at 36 months.
I know theres a lot of money and vested interest involved but is there any other reason why?
The JAA-IR has a very poor take up amongst PPLs - only about 20 did that rating in 2003/4 - out of 60,000 pilots that means that less that a tenth of 1 percent of PPLs are doing a rating that is FOR LIGHT AIRCRAFT simply to fly in controlled airspace under IFR. In the US if such a similar situation existed there would be an outcry.
The JAA IR is being used as a test of metal for airline plots under training notwithstanding that one has to complete the Multi-Crew Instrument rating if one gets a job flying multi crew AS WELL..
Why is there a compartmentalised approach to this education process? If one has an IR why does one need to do a different exam to communicate under VFR?
Most teaching advocates integrated methods nowadays - all this stuff is way old fashioned...
Its all "provider driven" - set up to protect vested interest and not to provide value for money for pilots or the general public...