Having attended the BALPA Conference for Fix wing employment, yesterday.

I would like to inform you there were over twelve pilots from both sides of the field who had spent the cash and time to attended the above. All had a fix wing licence.

I hope this short note will enlighten you (the Managers)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More importantly are the oil companies listening ?? They pay the wages,we(the helicopter companies)are tied into contracts for 5 years based on prices around $10-$15 a barrel .Now the price is $35+!!
If they want to keep us then pay!!

[This message has been edited by arm the floats (edited 16 October 2000).]

Both companies are well aware of that but as there hasn't been much movement towards the fixed wing world they won't do anything.

I know pilots who have had their ATPL(A) for over 2 years who haven't gone for it.

Things will only change if there is a large departure of pilots - if there's only a dripple they'll cope easily.

I believe Scotia have interviewed six or more pilots during the last week. Not many, but at least it's a start. A lot more are required if they are going to reduce the present high workload.
What's the problem with getting fixed wing jobs? Lots of people are talking about going but none are leaving. Most of those who took redundancy from Scotia, hoping to get fixed wing jobs, are currently flying police or air ambulance helicopters as they couldn't get any other employment.

I like you hope that the guys with fix wing licences will go and the oil/helicopter companies will see sense, however unfortunately until we withdraw our co-operation ie (overtime,FTL, busting etc) and start using the law to our advantage,the new pilots will just stop gap a problem that we as pilots are covering up .

Its worse than it looks. Those that left in the last round were mostly all wanting to be airline pilots all along. This time however, those holding fixed wing licences are what were the future of the industry, and were in till retirement. Unfortunately having watched their pay and conditions continualy eroded, and redundancies made from the top, many have decided that they cannot trust their families futures to the industry. Many are reluctantly leaving a job they enjoy for security, a decent pension, and hopefuly salaries that will keep pace with inflation in the fixed wing world. I doubt anyone is too worried though as you can allways train more young guys who are cheap and happy for a few years. Pity it could be a great job if only people were treated decently

I agree with changewing. The next 5 years or so are going to be critical for one (both?)of the companies mentioned as the combination of normal retirements gathers pace and more fixed wing vacancies attract pilots away. There are a number of pilots in their early thirties who have served 10-15 years and have 5-8000 hours,enjoy the job and have no desire to leave. However, the perceived lack of a future means they are going to leave. They are the future of the company and cannot be replaced overnight. An ab initio recruit taken on now will take at least 6 years to reach command and will still have a fraction of the experience of many of those who will leave soon.

I think we are entering a decisive period which requires careful planning. Unfortunately, an experince loss in 4 years does not show on this years balance sheet. (Training costs do though!).

------------------
Another day in paradise

Panic has started on the other side.

Rumour at the moment, says that Scotia have brought back an ex-Bond pilot on a three day week. Paying them a daily rate and their travel expense from London!!

This may help in the short-term, but the long-term??????

Keep them coming said the management the old the bold we cant get enough.Unfortunately even these will run out.

[This message has been edited by Countdown (edited 21 October 2000).]

I agree with changewing. The turning point of the North sea for those who were going to stay has to be the Shell contract changing hands and Bristows sacking all those over 50, just what message was that they were sending to the rest of the work force?

Its gets worse, you forget the introduction of cheap and nasty pension shemes, and a total lack of investement in any new equipment for around 10 years I would guess.

Tis a real pity as given some assurances about the future, I am sure that many looking to leave would only be too happy to stay !

I note from above, all the talk about people moving to fixed wing. Yes this may give higher pay but not a more stable lifestyle, people are leaving because quality of life in Aberdeen is on the downward spiral. Not only leaving to fixed wing, has anyone done the stats on those voluntarily going?
It also sounds like you are all waiting for those leaving to send a message to the managers, have any well planned generally accepted suggestions come from the shopfloor?
Ultimately we are slaves to the oil companies if they get a bad service maybe they will realise that rates must go up. As long as we muddle by and stay quiet about our concerns they will remain happy with paying minimal prices. The industry is now meant to be in a boom period for another 2-3 yrs. Can the current equipment last that long, safely? In any event investment needs to be made sometime.
More people and better conditions and new equipment sounds, like an expensive business. Any suggestions?

OK BOYS LETS HAVE A NATIONAL DAY OF SICKNESS


THE OIL COMPANIES AND BRISTOWS/SCOTIA SHOULD LISTEN THEN

LETS SUGGEST A DATE????


SEE NEW TOPIC

[This message has been edited by Countdown (edited 29 October 2000).]

Countdown won't be supported because 1) Bristow/Scotia pilots in general like to see themselves as a bunch of intrepid aviators, at the cutting edge of the flight envelope. When, in fact, the truth is Mr SFIM flies 98% of the time.
2)The "old timers" actually like £45,000++ for a non-thinking job.
3) In general North Sea pilots have are the loudest whingers but will do very little together to further their aims and bleating in the crewroom (or on these forums) has never got anybody a increase in salary or conditions.

If life sucks so bad go and get a real job.

4R

Unfortunately 4R Vibes is right, nothing will get better in the short term because

1) Too many old timers on a relatively good deal dont want to risk not being allowed to stay on
2) Everyone talks about working together for a better deal, but at the end of the day they are also happy when their company wins the next contract even if it does it at a ludicrous rate, because the other option is to lose your job, or start again with another operator

What drove me away from the North Sea was the totally awaful weather. If I had had the same job (Training Capt 6SIn) based here in Cheltenham I would have been in clover.
Actually it wasn't just the weather. The Jocks got right up my nose too.

Hi
I'm curious what are the vacancy requirements to fly for any of the companies you have mentioned here? I currently have 1500 hours all on turbine of which 1000 of these are captain. I still have a few years i.e six, left in the job so any info possible would be greatly received.

I would like to see some communication here. If the management read this, please tell us your plans for our future. We are all in this together. As I see it low rates are our problem, who's fault? Well that does not matter right now. Lets find a way out, lets talk properly and do something constructive. Ah, if only life were this simple!

Gentlemen;
You have to ask yourselves a basic question. Do I want to be home every night or do I want to make money. These two basic principles do not always go hand in hand.

To earn a higher income usually requires some sort of sacrifice on ones part. I've been reading, with interest, your comments on this and that and have come to the conclusion that you either work under impossible conditions or you just want more for less.

If the WX and working conditions are so bad in the North Sea, then why not come to Halifax, Burma or the Philippines. I'm sure the PARENT COMPANY would welcome you with open arms and pay you exactly what your worth.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor


[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 06 November 2000).]

OffshoreIGOR I suggest you go conclude some more and before you make comments like the above look at not only the cost of living in this country but the fact that many of us who have been on the north sea for some years have not received a pay rise(for 6yrs)until recently.
I believe the cost of living where you live is alot less, and finally why dont you come and work here and find out for yourself.I BELIEVE THE PARENT COMPANY IS RECRUITING.

Re: Countdown

Sir;

I don't know when it became an issue to criticize what you read, but obviously I have struck a nerve. Where I grew up, people observed some very basic principles, as follows:

1. A person who truly follows his convictions does not fear criticism;

2. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion;

3. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

4. If your talking, your not listening, if you not listening, your not learning.

5. Never, I say Never! fly the "A" model of anything!

With these points in mind, I would like you to consider the fact that it was you who introduced the subject. You have to realize that when you post on a bulletin board, you are going to illicit opinions.

I have nothing against you personally, but your concept does not wash with me or anyone else who tries to earn a living in this industry.

As for your comments on cost of living, it's all relative. You obviously sleep in your own bed every night, tucking in the kiddies and snuggling with the wife. You may have to pay what you consider to be outlandish rent or mortgage fees, as well as taxes.

I, on the other hand cannot afford the luxury of staying home, as for most of us in North America, we have to pay about 60% of our earnings in taxes for the priviledge of working there.

On the issue of raises, what does that mean? If you look at Finance 101, you would know that a raise is defined as any income increase in excess of the current inflation and cost of living rate. If thats the case then I haven't had a raise in 20 years!

On the topic of TI (Time In) 6 years, wow. I'm impressed. Tell me about it when you've been doing it for 20 and maybe you will have matured enough to respond to critcism in a mature manner.

In case your interested, I'm not wet behind the ears. I learned to fly on S-61's in Halifax (the duty fog bank) 20 years ago and have since filled roles in Medevac and most exclusively on S-61/S-76/BH212 offshore in every scum bucket place for WX on earth. I think I know of what I speak!

As for concluding, I think your rethoric speaks for itself.

OffshorIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif


[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 07 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 08 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 17 November 2000).]

Hey, Come on, here we go again, divide and conquer. If we cannot even discuss opinions in a civil manner how can we expect to raise any serious issues.
For Offshore the conditions in Aberdeen are near impossible, everybody, and I mean everybody is being asked to go beyond reasonable limits, many pilots are on their annual limit, new boys who's licences are not even dry yet are doing 80 hrs per month, yet still flights are being lost. Yes we can all work hard for a time but this is relentless and no sign of it easing up. As I said earlier if there was a management plan to improve things it would be great to know so that we can see some light at the end of the tunnel, as it is people are getting fed up and many are leaving or actively looking for other jobs. Not just the usual drift to fixed wing but other rotary and non aviation work. A sad reflection on peoples hopes for long term work in the North Sea.
There are rumours afoot that local recruiting cannot supply enough people for the industry and attempts are being made to bring in people from the far east! I am in no way against the use of other nationals if that is the only way but it makes me sad that this has to be done because the industry is driving good people away. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

DragDamper, let's hope that foreign nationals are not the thin end of the wedge. If they are willing to work for less money it may well be the answer to the managements prayers.

I was interested to see the comment that the pilots on the North Sea should make sacrifices.

During my time on the NS more than 25 pilots and aircrew have lost their lives in support of the Oil Industry and the companies have conveniently forgotten all this.

The safety record has improved dramatically over the last few years, but many experienced people have left the job of late and generally not by choice.

The oil companies have enjoyed a bonanza recently and it is time that the slide in our pay and conditions was reversed.

Lets hope the wheeler, dealers are not going to pull the same trick on us as the government has pulled on the poor nurses; Bring in cheap imports to cheat the rules of supply and demand.


[This message has been edited by Houdini (edited 07 November 2000).]

Re Houdini:

My comment about sacrifice had nothing to do with safety. Safety is NOT an item you can sacrifice.

What I was referring to was, as per my follow-up posting, If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. There are many places you can tour in this world and touring brings with it many benefits as well as sacrifices i.e. less family time.

Enough said. The North Sea is not the only place on earth that has it's challenges and concerns.

Cheers,

OffshoreIgor

Gentleman,

We seem to have got into a 'who has the shittish job with the worst conditions debate'.

Yes it's true that the North Sea is not as well paid as it used to be and it's true that other pilots elsewhere have had/have just as bad a time of it or worse. However that doesn't mean that we should criticise someone who wants to improve conditions in one part of the world with comments like 'can't stand the heat..' etc.

We all get old and find ourselves trapped in a job until retirement mainly for financial reasons and going elsewhere is not always an option for some people.

Surely all of us want better conditions and recognition for the job we do wherever we are.

We should be trying to promote the image of the helicopter pilot as a professional rather than as a cigar smoking, baseball cap wearing hillbilly!

Unfortunately if we continue to fight with each other and adopt the 'if you think you've got it bad look at me' argument it will never happen. So lets have some positive encouragement for someone trying to change things or constructive criticism if you don't like how he/she wants to do it rather than a transatlantic slagging match.

Night Sun :-)


[This message has been edited by Night Sun (edited 08 November 2000).]

Re: Night Son

I couldn't agree with you more. What good is a bulletin board if you can't stir up some opinion.

I believe there are many legitimate concerns in all Areas of Operations and they have to be addressed. I also believe that there are no problems, only solutions.

I have only seen people talking about problems but not really offering solutions.

There are solutions available to many of the concerns. The most obvious is your own National Regulations and your Company SOP's. If you are all being pressured into doing something that is in conflict with these orders, then I suggest that your respective Companies and Customers need to be reminded that there is an established procedure for the safe completion of the job.

There are Regulatory bodies within your various Aviation Authorities that are a sounding board for the industry when a need for change is identified.

It's a starting point that gets the issues from the coffee room to the Flight Line.

Keep Looking!

Cheers :)

OffshoreIgor

Keep it coming everyone, whilst we do not have any solutions recent comments show a little more solidarity and willingness to do something constructive. The problem is that we alone cannot achieve things in the right way without management cooperation, yes we can achieve a lot through conflict but it would be far better if we were working together.
As I see it problems are:
Lack of manpower in all depts.
An ageing fleet in need of update/replacement.
Lack of communication everywhere.

What we need is some pride in our job and Companies and a willingness by all to aim for the "best practices" to become a reality. I know money is a problem, but look at Railtrack! Lets hope it doesn't cost lives before safety comes first here. Answers on a postcard please. :)

As a person who sits in the back now and again for jaunts over the oggin, I hope that this issue of working max (or more) hours / month is resolved.

As an idependant contractor I know how the oil companies do their utmost to keep a lid on costs. However, it may be time to hit the safety issues hard as the oil majors flaunt their commitment to safety to the public. As the hirer of a service, they (the oil company)should ensure that a subcontractor has adequate internal safety procedures and obeys them in addition to any HSE or industry standards.

Good luck with the uphill task ahead of you. As a concerned observer, it is good to see a bit of harmony coming into this thread. You'll go nowhere unless everybody is singing off the same hymn sheet.

How about a radical thought to help you North Sea pilots.

Anyone ever considered forming a proper union run BY North Sea pilots FOR North Sea pilots.

What about the mighty BALPA I hear a lone voice cry! Yeah, what about bloody BALPA I hear a vast number sigh!!

You don't have to be a big union but as long as everyone knew that you were representing and working for them you could accomplish a lot.

Divided we fall Together we stand

------------------
Helmut Bag

That was tried with the North Sea Pilots Association. Before my time. However, a union is only as good as its members, and what they are prepared to do for themselves.

HOGE is absolutely right. It would never work.

Most NS pilots prefer to moan and groan about an issue rather than do anything about it and to set up a separate organisation would involve them having to actually put their hand in their pocket and produce some cash! It's hard enough to get some to buy a round!

On a more constructive note! The best bet is to stick with BALPA. While they haven't been able to achieve very much with the management of either company it is still early days. They also have the infrastructure and backup to deal with the more complex issues.

Actually when you think about it perhaps we'd stand a better chance getting the masons to go on strike - that would shut down both training schools and the middle management! ;-)

Gentlemen, please!

I've been following and participating in this forum for a while now and the common thread seems to be 'Strike!, Strike!, Strike!'

I believe you catch more flies with sugar.

I think what is definately missing is some form of "forum" between management and employees. In my company, we have an annual 'Employee/Management' Forum.

Representatives fromm all Bases, worldwide sit down and discuss all the current issues. Historically, 90% of all issues are resolved through this forum, with the remaining 10% usually concerning very petty issues.

If you consider the fact that a $10.00/day increase (about 4 pounds 50) accross the board can rapidly become a multi million dollar proposal for your company,(depending on your employee numbers) this becomes a monumental fincial cost for your company.

You may very well as someone has put it,"double your earnings overnight" but will you have a company in the morning to go to work for if they run out of money?

Just considering both sides of the coin!

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Offshoreigor

I think we have had this conversation before about your knowledge of the North Sea and its working practices.You are obviously a very experienced pilot and have considerable knowledge of your own working enviroment, however the comments you make show with respect the naivity of your understanding of the working and management practices over here.I would respectfully suggest you do a little more homework.I think the quote goes something like this."let a man walk a mile in my shoes"

Well UNLOB you have really started something here, back to your original post, "are they listening"?
The answer can only be YES, firstly guys who have been in the company for 2 minutes are getting commands ( temporary of course) and to overcome the numbers problem I understand the Vietnamese pilots that the Norwegians have thrown out are coming to fill the slots!

Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour.

------------------
Hey is that u Bob?

Chequesplease,


Incorrect try again.The info you have is incorrect talk to more people and get the facts straight

Offshoreigor I suggest you butt-out this thread until you have a 1% clue what you are talking about. You're opinions (probably well meant) are so wide of the mark you make yourself look clueless.
Save yourself embarassment by not posting on North Sea issues till you know your subject matter a wee bit better.

4Rvibes:

Whew! Touchy aren't we. I thought someone said you Brits had a keen sense of humour and that I should get one too. I guess the Brit sense of humour is only active when chucking "S***".

I'm displaying my sense of humour by responding to this Boola Boola. When you finally realize that your problems and issues are not unique to the North Sea, you may start to ask the right questions about resolving these issues.

Someone said "walk a mile in my shoes". Well I have walked many miles in many shoes worldwide and guess what? It's the same everywhere you go. Scary thought, isn't it, that someone from the "outside" may have some insight into what you felt was your own exclusive and private domain.

The biggest problem some people face, is becoming too caught up in they're own little piece of the world. If you do one thing in one area long enough, you tend to develop tunnel vision and eventually you start to believe your own rhetoric.

I'll keep posting thankyou, at the risk of embarassing myself. After all, I'm just a dumb Colonial that needs a little more time to understand things of this nature.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Hey Countdown, who said anything about facts? this is a rumour network and that is exactly what I have heard but of course if you have the facts then lets all hear them!

Can someone please break the news to the author of : "JAA CONVERSION" very very gently.!

------------------
TC

Thought I would resurrect this one from the ashes.To let you all know, on both sides of the airfield there have been 10 resignations in the last month alone. Not all of those are fixed wing bound.


May be someone will sit-up and pay attention soon. (NOT!).



[This message has been edited by UNLOB (edited 18 December 2000).]

To 4Rvibes,changewind,

I certainly agree with your comments.There is a lot of lethargy around.
Also, the last "A" in BALPA stands for "Association", not "Union". The fact is, I do not see much union or unity in our business. Most of us are very selfish and individualistic. Until we are completly united, not much is going to happen.

TO Houdini,

I do not know who you are, but I would not swap my paycheque for yours. I certainly do not think my company would call me "cheap import".

Monsieur Pat

You shouldn't be so sensitive about being an import since you blokes are all meant to be good little EU citizens now with reciprocal rights accross Europe.

What is being experienced on the North Sea with resignations by the truckload is a symptom of the exploitation which has been endemic in the offshore helicopter industry for many years now. Since the North Sea pilots have failed to organise properly, you really only have yourselves to blame for your poor wages and conditions.

By a peculiar quirk, it seems that it may be those same forces of the capitalist market which may result in a short supply and therefore an improvement in your pay and conditions.

I hope it happens for you all, but if you had all been united, you could have had an increase already and not still be waiting for Bristow and Scotia to react to a pilot shortage coupled with a mild increase in levels of activity. By the time you get your pay rise, it may already be time for the operators to start thinking layoffs again. Which way is the oil price going this week?

Lack of unity, general lethargy and sefishness will never benefit the North Sea pilots as a group, remember, the operators will only pay you more when they are desparate. The baseball bat can change hands very quickly so enjoy it for the brief time you might get to hold it.

With your e-mail address stated as it is, are you posting as one of the boys or on behalf of Bristow management??

To Leading Edge

A) There must have been a translation error somewhere. I was not sensitive about being an import. I only wanted to state that imports were not always cheap. Having worked for Bristow a long time, and in the North sea for 18 years, I do not consider myself as "cheap foreign labour".

B)If you read my previous thread, you can see that I fully agree with you on the fact that North Sea pilots can not organise themselves. This is what I meant about unity. There is none. The first line of your last paragraph says what I meant.

C) I am not Bristow management. Like every employee, I can have an e-mail address. I have other e-mail addresses, but the pprune registration form only took one. Lastly, right or wrong, I have my opinions and certainly not afraid to state them under my name. Why do everybody on this forum have to write under the cover of anonymity. If we want to say that management is out of touch , then let's say it.

Anyway, I always like a good argument and a chat.

Have a very merry Christmas and a happy new year for 2001. Safe flying.

Patrick

Monsieur Pat

I applaud you for having the guts to use your own name, I will continue with my anonymity (as far as it goes) for fear of management retribution. I was merely concerned that you were using a Bristow
e-mail address and that you may have been a management agent in the cleverest disguise, ie none!!! I would really like to see the North Sea Pilots get the pay they deserve but unfortunately they are so disjointed and there are so many who are selfish that it will only happen if the market dictates because of a shortage.

Personally, I wouldn't work there again for any money that the operators would pay. Aberdeen has to be one of the most miserable places on earth with grey everything, including grey overweight women!!!

Leading Edge,

I have lived in Aberdeen for some time now. I think Aberdeen is a great place with plenty of opportunites available for those who wish to take them. I found your remarks about the city unfair and somewhat cruel.

Since then I have discovered that you are from Australia and so completely forgive you. It must be very difficult coming from a country with no culture for you to be able to appreciate a country with one.

Night Sun :)

Leading Edge;

I agree with you! Aberdeen definately has to be the dullest, greyest place on earth! The only saving grace is it's proximity to the 'Whiskey Trail'

Night Sun;

Don't be so serious! And what's this nonsense about culture! Being of Scottish heritage myself, I resent that remark! Aarrh! Ye canee take the breeks off a heelinman! Where ere ye be, let yer wind gey free!

Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year!

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif


[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 27 December 2000).]

As a man with 3500 hrs rotary and some 300 or so fixed I was hoping to get a job flying for a FW airline, as many of my ex RN muckers have. Is it as bleak out there in wobbly head land as you make out?

Night Sun

I did not mean to touch a raw nerve but I would find it difficult to change my views about the Granite City and the Granite Women. Having lived there, it is not an experience I would chose to repeat.

Have you been to Australia? If not, then perhaps you might like to visit and you might find that we have a very vibrant "new" culture which generally appeals to most people who visit or are fortunate enough to live here.

I do not want to get into a country vs country debate, that is not the purpose of this thread.

The fact remains that Bristow and Scotia do not pay their pilots enough for the job that they do. Most of the pilots are not indigenous to Aberdeen and deserve an additional premium for having to live there because the cost of living is high.

It is my belief, whether or not one likes living in Aberdeen, that the NS operators will have to raise their pay levels and improve conditions if they want to recruit the best pilots, otherwise they will all either go plank wing or will go for other helicopter jobs which will allow them to live where they want and to have some respect from their employers.

Leading Edge and Offshore Igor,

If you slag off a place where people live and like you shouldn't be surprised that there are others who will criticise you for it. You both may have found Aberdeen lacking but that doesn't give you a cart blanche on opinions of the city. As I have said I like Aberdeen and think it's a great place but you don't. Fine.

I have been to both your countries and like them very much, my reply to Leading Edge was because I found his comment to be one sided and somewhat bigoted. What is interesting is that Leading Edges reply to my criticism of his country was almost exactly the same as mine was of his.

So, the point is, you may not like a place that others do. That doesn't give you the right to sit back and say your piece without a reply. Just as I accept your criticism of Aberdeen you should accept my rebuttal. As Offshoreigor has pointed out to me in the past, "it's a bulletin board and we are all entitled to an opinion". So that was mine.

As for, "Ye canee take the breeks off a heelinman! Where ere ye be, let yer wind gey free!", I was born and have lived in Scotland all my life, my parents were Scottish etc. etc... and I can honesty say - Offshoreigor I haven't a f*%king clue what you are talking about! I think you may have been watching too many Hollywood movies!

Have a great Hogmanay,

Night Sun. :)

Night Sun;

Oh contraire!!! My Father is from Airdrie and my Mother is from Edinburgh. And as anyone knows those were quotes from 'The Burns'!

I may be what you consider to be a 'Snap frozen Yank' but I know my heritage.

I never said I didn't like Aberdeen, only that it was cold and grey. Unless you're colour blind or an eskimo, then both these facts, as facts they are, should be quite apparent. I actually enjoy the time in Aberdeen when I have been there for the Sim training at the big red Humming Bird, Scotia (BIH when I was there last).

As a matter of fact, I'm quite proud of my Scottish heritage. I was brought up to believe there were only two types of people in the world, Scotsman and those who wished they were.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

OK, so now you're saying you like the place and enjoy your time here despite the fact that earlier you agreed with Leading Edges remark that:-

"Aberdeen has to be one of the most miserable places on earth with grey everything, including grey overweight women!!!".

You said:- "I agree with you! Aberdeen definitely has to be the dullest, greyest place on earth!"

You're not really the most consistent contributor to PPRUNE are you?

Night Sun :)

Listening to you guys is really starting to depress me. I have spent the last 3 years working for a service company offshore in places that make the North Sea look like a summer camp(try Ekhabi jack-up, offshore Sakhalin Island,East Siberia)in order to save enough cash to finance a JAA CPL(H)course. The plan being to perhaps do what you guys are doing one day.Is it really that bad, or do you guys just like to whinge? at least you have a job,I've just found out that even when I have my CPL, I cannot apply for any jobs, as I need a further 50 Hrs PIC. Are you saying I should'nt have bothered?

At risk of having my head bitten off.... aren't we starting to wander off the thread somewhat??? I came online today for the first time since the 22nd and was pleased to see this thread at the top of the pile. 'Ah haaaa', (I thought) ' fresh input, maybe something of interest'. But no, instead there is a transworld slanging match going on about the virtues (or otherwise, depending on one's POV)of Aberdeen.

Surely, the intention of UNLOB's original posting was to present a forum in which management both sides of 16/34 could gain an insight into what the people at the coalface were upset about.

I may be wrong (and I've no doubt someone will confirm that I am) but I suspect the average manager has given up reading this thread by now and a potential route for intelligent, anonymous feedback has been lost.

-----------

If it ain't broke.........

I agree with Taf that we are losing the point although I inadvertantly seemed to start the problem by saying something bad about Aberdeen. What I think of Aberdeen is not relevant anyway.

My point was not to create a "Don't go to Aberdeen" advertisement but to acknowledge that not everybody is a native Scot and so moves there for work only. For that, they should be adequately compensated because of additional travel to and from other parts of the UK, the higher cost of living etc.

If the Operators pay what the job deserves, and a proper premium for Aberdeen then things in the industry would come a long way and some of the people who may otherwise go fixed wing may be attracted to a job which has, so far, not reached it's proper commercial worth within industrialised society. The fact remains, that the North Sea Helicopter pilot, as well as helicopter pilots generally are mostly underpaid and often undervalued by their respective employers and industry as a whole.

This cannot be changed by people acting independently or selfishly. Market forces may help a bit but eventually, pilots will have to be heard as a collective group.

OK, I will not mention Aberdeen again after this post but Leading Edge if what you think about Aberdeen is not relevant to this thread then why comment on the city in the first place? Surely you must have known that saying what you did about it was going to cause a reaction. Anyway.. I love the place and so I move on! I agree totally with the rest of your message.

New-Boy, life on the North Sea is not that bad and I actually very much enjoy the job and have no plans to go fixed wing. The trouble is is that the job used to be a lot a better and what you witness here on PPRUNE are pilots complaining at the gradual erosion of pay and conditions. In real terms we are paid less now than we were 10 years ago.

This was brought about by the oil slump and the inability of the management of the helicopter companies to deal with it properly which lead to undercutting each other to get work. I believe that both UK companies have contracts where they are not making any money. There has been no positive motivation or feedback from the management to the work force for a long long time. Everything now is cut, cut, cut. Hopefully over time things will improve and the management will suddenly ask themselves why all of a sudden they don't have many pilots left. (Another 3 gone recently). These are the sort of issues that tend to make it's way here because they are closest to people's hearts. I suppose I comment because I want the job to be the same as it was when I joined or better. I stay because I still enjoy it, fixed wing is not for me and hopefully through BALPA things will start to look more positive again.

Rotorheads is a bit of a whinging board and I agree that I contribute to that! Unfortunately people on it, myself included, don't put enough positive comments or thoughts on it and we should all make an effort to change that.

Taff Missed - point taken but he started it! <Sucks thumb and stamps feet>.

Night Sun :)

I've been reading this thread with a degree of nostalgia , I left the N.Sea in 79 , and went FW in 89. Boy , things have'nt changed much!!
We (I include myself here) always were strong on whingeing and weak on doing anything about it , and I earn less now than I did 25 years ago(adjusted for the usual).Don't confuse the oil-support industry with airlines-or at least compare it to charter ~only airlines. Oh , and Bristow Management never did listen.
Have a safe 2001 guys.

"......strong on whingeing and weak on doing anything about it.."

Anyone able to translate the above into Latin so we can have a North Sea Helicopter Pilots motto?

Just been reading this thread and thought I'd throw in my piece for what its worth. I left Bristow's a year and a half ago having flown eight and a half years for them in all kind of roles, I loved every minute of it and it was a hard choice I made to leave. I did leave becuase of a lack of precieved future, I think I was right. I'd hate to be in my mid forties with a family hoping I'm notgoing to be the one to be made redundant this time round. As for pay I earn more now as a year two first officer than I did as a year three captain with Bristow's and there's the very real prospect of command within a year, the lifestyle is far superior to that enjoyed in Aberdeen although if I'm honest the flying itself can be a little dull, all in all the fixed wing world has a lot to offer more so I'd say than the north sea, but hey that's just my opinion.

Captain Biceps! Is that you?