White Whales and Trooping

[Data-Lynx]

Impressed with the breadth of expertise in PPRuNe, can anyone in the big-fixed wing fraternity assure a simple sailor, tasked as self-loading luggage, that the scruffy off-white 747-300 currently working the South Atlantic trooping flights is of good parentage? I have not seen such a dubious, unmarked bird since I stumbled into the company of strange and burly Americans around a non-military DC8 at RAF Machrihanish many years ago. I am advised that Air Atlanta (out of Iceland??) is a reputable company and that my first flight – no audio, no video and no overhead light – was unfortunate and not the after effects of Military Smart Acquisition. What was Air Atlanta's background before it won the contract?

Separately, when the prevailing wind is so reliable at ASI, why is the trooping aircraft carefully parked directly upwind of the ‘cage’ with the APU running? Has anyone in the F3, AT or SH world enjoyed similar experiences when forced to become passengers en-route to Mount Pleasant?

[16 blades]

If you're talking about TF-ARG, it's a 747-200. It's showing it's age a bit, but doesn't appear to be in too bad a shape. The upper deck and forward rows are fitted with (70's style) leather business class seats that are pretty comfy - much better than cattle class over an 18 hr round trip!! Although Icelandic airworthiness and certification differ from European requirements, you can be rest assured that the crew would not get airborne with it if they thought it wouldn't make it! And it's no older or more fcuked-up than an of our own old ****heaps!

Air Atlanta has 2 arms - Air Atlanta Icelandic, which do alot of the 'contract' type work, and Air Atlanta Europe, that do more regular chater-type stuff. Their crews are pretty proffesional, and the hosties are VERY friendly! Same crap RAF inflight catering out of brize, unfortunately, and their inflight movies leave alot to be desired. On the whole, though, there's alot worse around. They've acquired quite a few aircraft over the last few years, and I understand they are now one of the worlds biggest contract / charter airlines, and they have the BZZ-ASI-MPA contract for the next 4 years.

This is the beast in question:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=8/23617195540.jpg&s=x1

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=8/23617213297.jpg&s=x1

16B

[Data-Lynx]

VMT 16B. It was not so much the physical state of the aircraft that surprised me but the almost complete lack of markings, logos and other labels that festoon a normal commercial aircraft.

I note a new 'feature' for trooping south as Brize Norton gets re-surfaced: a four hour check-in requirement at BZZ before being bussed to RAF Fairford to actually launch. No doubt that the snowdrops will be out for the return flight to ensure we do not break away from Fairford and miss our bus pass back to BZZ.

Thanks again

[ZH875]

You will need to go to BZZ if you want to see your luggage again, as the muppets will be off loading at Fairford and shipping it all back to BZZ. So it will be a 4 hour check in and no doubt a four hour wait for your luggage.

Why not use Lyneham, it has plenty of runway space, Cargo handling and customs as well.

[Data-Lynx]

Ah ZH875, you offer great temptation to a team that has no choice. I must be grateful that hard hats and chest protectors can be left behind and, more importantly, that we are not forced through the 'Mounting Base that must not be named' with five to nine hour check-in times.

[7FF]

I believe that some of the Air Atlanta 742's were bought from Cathay Pacific Airways in the late 90's. They were showing their age but in good shape when sold. All the CX aircraft had RR engines and extra fuel tanks in the wing tips to enable pioneering ULH, HKG to LGW non stop.
Aahhhhhhh memories.

:{

[Wycombe]

.....those colours look very ex-BA to me, also the RR motors (but Cathay did have those aswell).

Atlanta are indeed a big outfit. Their a/c (esp 747's) have been known to masquerade in the colours of several major carriers (Saudia, Iberia, Virgin, just those that I can think of off the top of my head).

Used to operate a lot of L10's until fairly recently also.

[Wotta Dump]

Is it available to take 40 people back to Kinloss on Sunday so they don't have to spend 12 hours on a coach?!!

"Flexibility is the key to Air Power" my ar$e

[snooze]

TF ARG is an ex BA jet (it still has the BA crown on some of the internal bulk heads!). It is however currently US - it was meant to head south at 2359L last night but has been delayed until tomorrow by a double engine change (one apparently planned and one unplanned - with the planned one being brought forward).
Air Atlanta (now a 3 way organisation - including Excel Airways) are looking at putting a 747-300 on the route later this year with a potential for maybe a 400 after that.
The flt deck crew and the GEs are all Air Atlanta Iceland and the cabin crew are all Air Atlanta Europe. The jet is comfortable enough as there are 374 seats on board (52 of which are business class (ish)) and there is usually plenty of room to spread around the economy seats. The best thing about the ac is that it allows much higher freight carriage thereby reducing the need for spec freighters.

Forgot to mention. They were going to put the decals on but it didn\'t make sense to spend the cash when they will probably be replacing the jet soon - hence the dodgy colour scheme.

Regards

[KPax]

ZH875, having watched the execs and engineers from a certain C17 sqn walking round the apron at Lyneham it was decided that yes they could park large ac, but getting them airborne with large freight, fuel and pax on a 7000 ft runway was not the way forward.

[16 blades]

Lyneham's main runway, at 7800ft TORA, is not long enough to get a 747-200 loaded with enough fuel to get to ASI airborne in most circumstances.

Also, Lyneham does not have the facilities to process a 747-load of passengers - we simply do not have a large enough sanitised area to 'store' that many pax whilst they await boarding.

But it's good to see the muppets excelling themselves once again - forcing people to be processed at BZZ, then drive to Fairford - and vice-versa on the inbound. Fu*kwits!

Is it available to take 40 people back to Kinloss on Sunday so they don't have to spend 12 hours on a coach?!!

"Flexibility is the key to Air Power" my ar$e
Flexibility costs money, unfortunatley your budget holders are not prepared to pay to have you dropped off at your local airhead. 2 Gp charge a premium for this (fuel, landind fees (civ airfield), airframe hours, heavier useage of crews) - you need to look closer to your home for this 'lack' of flexibility. We are ALWAYS flexible - it just seems your budget holders aren't.

16B

[mystic_meg]

But it's good to see the muppets excelling themselves once again - forcing people to be processed at BZZ, then drive to Fairford - and vice-versa on the inbound. Fu*kwits!

...I think this link will show that it was higher up the foodchain that the decisions were made regarding Bolthole options...

...(and no, I'm not a muppet, before you ask!) :ok:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton/news/2005/news_jul05_03.html

[Wotta Dump]

Apparently the Herc SURF now stands for Suddenly Unserviceable/Unavailable Really Frequently. Don't worry about people that are trying to get home though eh boys and girls!

"Flexibility is the key to Air Power" my ar$e!

[Baskitt Kase]

2 Gp charge a premium for this (fuel, landind fees (civ airfield), airframe hours, heavier useage of crews) Twaddle! 2 Gp doesn't charge anything for operating contrary to the DTMA main base policy... basic principles still apply in that costs lay where they fall. It does cost 2 Gp (the costs as described) but the Gp can't and doesn't pass those costs on. However, DTMA routinely breach the main base policy for tasks specifically for scottish based units purposely to circumvent the 12 hr drive - it generally works for the RAF units (when their stns provide sufficient crash coverage and are willing to open out of hours if required), but the 3 bases resolutely refuse to go to any expense for army moves, precisely because costs lay where they fall and the stns don't want to spend their overtime budgets supporting anyone other than themselves. Now, if there were an easy mechanism for transferring costs between budgets with mutual consent, there would be a greater degree of support for the remaining scottish non-RAF units and even the northern England personnel too (for landing fees at civilian airfields etc).

By the way Wotta Dump, the SURF are there to support intra-theatre tasking - not to get people home, but you presumably knew that. And do you honestly think that with an ever-decreasing amount of available defence budget, it makes sense to charter a 747 for a 3 hr round trip to deliver 40 people? That wouldn't be flexibility, it would be a gross misuse of public money! Frankly that approach makes even our finance staff look competent in comparison - and that's really saying something!

[Data-Lynx]

Although a massive flying station, RAF Fairford is predominantly a bomber station and as such has no passenger facilities.

Thanks to mystic_meg for the link which reminds me of how well some things can be made ready for a flight. A bomb receives respect from ground staff and aircrew. It is not expected to arrive early and care is taken about the temperature and humidity around it. It does not have to move itself around aimlessly and it certainly does not need to be strip-searched for dangerously sharp devices that a snowdrop considers might leap out and attack the aircrew. Seasoned professionals will carefully ensure it is located in its own space on the aircraft, content in the knowledge that its seating is secure, snug and never double-booked. It will be tended up until launch, no one will forget about it while it is airborne and a great deal of training and effort goes into ensuring it arrives at its destination without delay, fit for its allotted task.

Bolthole is right. RAF Fairford is totally unsuited for passengers.

[BEagle]

"......and would risk overrunning into the possible increased operational activity in the early part of next year."

Is Bliar planning another Bush bum-licking war in the 'early part of next year' then? Or what?

[Data-Lynx]

Nope - just more of the same. Separately, and steering clear of arguments about fly/drives to Scotland and back:
RAF Brize Norton will continue to be used during the Op BOLTHOLE period, with the passengers enduring a longer drive out to the aircraft (approximately 45 minutes).
What is the longest 'drive out to the aircraft' that anyone has experienced?

[GeeRam]

TF-ARG is ex-British Airways (G-BDXK I believe).

Seems to spend at lot of it's time taking off from Ringway flying oikes to Florida to get sunstroke......:p

[Baskitt Kase]

Data-Lynx: We routinely did Finningley to Waddington in the late 80's when Finningley's runway was being done. If you were first wave, you planned at Waddo, otherwise, it was a long walk from Donnie!

[BEagle]

"Is it available to take 40 people back to Kinloss on Sunday so they don't have to spend 12 hours on a coach?!!"

And just who is going to pay for the return trip? I know that the rail journey from the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome to ISK is extremely long (best way is by coach to Gloucester, then 1247 train to Birmingham, change for the 1400 to Aberdeen, change for the 2100 to Forres, arriving 2240), however I don't think that there'd be any way that your budget holder would stump up for a flight instead of a 10 hr rail journey.

Surely no-one would send an empty coach 550 miles from ISK to Brize to pick you up?

In the past I've certainly flown pax from Lossiemouth to Kuwait via Palermo in the VC10 - doesn't this happe these days?

Just a thought (since Brize is currently giving 22002KT 0200 FG BKN000 11/11 Q1020 BECMG 3000 BR SCT004), but what if the inbound flight to Cartoontown International were to divert to Prestwick? Would the muppets really try to send you all the way down to Oxfordshire just to board your coach back to Jockistan (a total journey of 920 miles)? Or would they let you do the shorter 230 mile trip direct to ISK from Prestwick?

[adrian mole]

I do get pi$$ed off when you constantly slag off the movers in ignorance. The enlisted one's have all the sensible answers but of course the commissioned element know best even though they are really stackers!

You would think that the pax could disperse from Scotland but then the logistics of getting the Southerners home would have to be considered. A whole offload - reprocess the bags and backload would be needed and then someone would question cost. There's no real satisfactory answer as someone would always moan - a no-win situation.

Why can't a Herc under the guise of Training pick up the pax from ISK and deliver South and vice-versa?

I've just looked up good old Stellios's airline rates and EasyJet charge £29.99 inc taxes to fly a pax from Bristol to Inverness - surely there's a solution in there somewhere?

[Muppet Show]

BEagle, no the 'muppets' wouldn't insist on sending people in the wrong direction, why would they? 2 Gp has a main base policy whereby it operates the majority of it's AT flights from BZZ or LYE. If an ac diverts to PIK, there is no reason for pax to return south once customs and immigration cleared. 2 Gp would have an obligation to pay for an onmove back to the ac's final destination, but the unit is perfectly at liberty to fund a move direct to the pax's final destination. If this doesn't happen, it is nothing to do with movers being awkward, it's probably that the unit hasn't sorted itself out and authorised a change of plan for its own people, leaving hands tied.

AT flights in /out of north Scotland still happen provided that it's solely for a unit based there. Admin flights (schedules) will always plan to operate into either BZZ or LYE as these are the only 2 MOD airfields authorized by HM Customs and Excise (Ops and Exs have slightly different rules). The fact that both are in SW England doesn't help but is not the movers' fault either!

Adrian, that's a 'Stackers' attempt at a sensible answer!

[Data-Lynx]

snooze - you were so right about the identity. This Thursday trooper finally lurched skywards towards ASI close to midday on Sunday.

[unclenelli]

I think it eventually departed to ASI via Luxembourg for a double engine change.

Then they found that a panel needed replacing.
Found a panel - in Wales!

Found a spare aircaraft to fly the panel - Luton!

Trooper arrived at the covert Oxonian Airfield late on Saturday with no crew duty left!

New crew arrived the next morning.

Engine start sounded a bit rough!!

Taxied out - taxied back! No compass.

Departed - 4 days late.

[Talking Radalt]

What with this and the "MPA Bars" thread charting the demise of the various watering holes darn-sarf, a short det in FI alas no longer looks like the fun bus it used to be. :{
But hey, if people actually enjoyed going and didn't feel so taken for granted with no right to reply, then the Airships might get accused of investing in people.....and that would never do.:rolleyes:

[Hoobie Schnaps]

Data-Lynx,

Not only did it leave three days late it took 2 attempts to get into MPA and the landing, to quote one of the Firemen who was watching, was - 'interesting'.

It left MPA today bound for Monte-Video! Sounds like the old Tristar days again (although this time it is an Aero Med pick up rather than a crew requirement for a night out somewhere new).

Regards

[BEagle]

Many years ago after the Victor/C130 airbridge days, the MPA run was done by real airlines like BA and Virgin.

Then came the Timmy....

And now?

I just hope that time won't tell.

[Wycombe]

And now?.....your trooping flight has been contracted to the lowest bidder :E

BEags, you forgot bmi and their nice modern A330

[Data-Lynx]

The Whales are not well. Does anyone know where the South Atlantic trooper has got to this time. It departed from BZZ on Tuesday night but a subsequent broadcast suggests it is at ( or back at ) ASI.

Rumour has it that the downbird is the spare.