Seminole vs de BE 76

[trainer too 2]

Any pro and con's for these aircraft for the ME-IR environement for training purposes?

Thanks

[huckleberry58]

Both aircraft are nice to fly. I found mostly aesthetic differences between the two. The engine instruments of the BE76 are easier to read and placed more logically in the cockpit than the PA44. My main peeve is the throttles of the turbo charged PA44 models, they are very touchy and easy to overboost.

[Send Clowns]

One is a Beech, one a Piper. Who builds better aircraft? I admit I have only flown the PA-44 and a Be-76 simulator (a real Be-76 sim though, built in the fuselage of one to act like a Be-76, not a generic twin), but given the choice I'd go for the Be-76 every time. I believe they were both designed, alongside the Grumman Cougar, to bid for a US military contract. Whilst all fulfilled requirements, the Duchess won and the Cougar came second.

[BigEndBob]

Performance about same, Be76 more comfortable though.
The only problem with T tails is checking for ice before flight.
Seminole can just about see over tail, but Beech impossible without ladder.
Also don't loose the key for the emerg. gear extn.
Gear extn a bit tricky single pilot without a/p.

[Oktas8]

Well...

PA44: about 5kts faster, door seal tends to leak after a while, slightly harder to keep straight when asym (subjective opinion), engine instruments & switches layout ranges from stupid to OK depending on the variant, you can buy new PA44's with much better avionics. Fuel burn perhaps a little higher, but gallons / nm about the same. Fuel tanks easily dipped. Propeller clearance less than competition, if you are considering using grass runways.

BE76: more form drag therefore slower, doors tend to open themselves during take-off on old airframes (ie all of them), a little easier to fly asym perhaps, better climb performance asym (may not be a good thing for training though), good instrument layout, you can't buy a new one. It is difficult to visually check the fuel if you have only a little in the tanks - but you would top up before flight anyway, so no problems I suppose. Finally, if you are over 6 feet tall, you might find yourself bruising your lower leg on the bottom edge of the instrument panel when adjusting your seat forwards.

I did fly a BE76 with B767 style glass cockpit - that was fun. But the doors still occasionally opened themselves on take-off.

Operating differences? Gear speeds and climb speeds are almost identical, but the Beech allows a much higher speed for initial flap extension. That's very convenient for energy management on an instrument approach, so perhaps the Duchess wins several points there. Also, the Duchess is perhaps easier to rotate without over-rotating (students tend to yank the PA44 off the runway the first few times they try), and some people find it easier to land.

Overall I have no preference, unless I want a new aeroplane. Then I can only choose Piper.

Hope this helps,
O8

[Send Clowns]

The Be-76s I've ridden in (as I say, not flown it) were actually if anything a little faster than the PA-44s I've flown, and assuming the instructor got the zero-thrust power correct, climbed slightly better on one (or much better than aircraft of a certain US school, which wouldn't keep height at 3000'!).

[Oktas8]

With respect to speeds:

My remarks about speed comparisons refer mainly to the flight manual (Section 5) power setting and time-speed-distance tables.

There are a great many tired old workhorse PA44's on the market that are slower than the better-maintained BE76's at the flying school just up the road.

Cheers,
O8

[Tinstaafl]

They both do the job. I prefer that the BE76 has a door for each pilot, especially in hot or rainy weather.

[BigEndBob]

Also thought the aircraft have to be capable of flight into known icing, got to say never seen a PA44 with de/anti ice.
Also why is it designed so that the stall warners cannot be tested on the ground?

['I' in the sky]

I've got short legs and always found even with the seat fully forward I was at full stretch to maintain full rudder during assymetric work on the BE76. Also on the ones I flew in Florida where the park brakes never work it was a pain trying to maintain the aircraft stationary during the power checks using only the toe brakes. Found the seminole much easier on both counts.

[John Farley]

Bob

PA44 GBGCO had fluid based anti-ice fitted in the early 80s. Can't speak for any others

[pirate4225]

Got a PA44 into icing once.. pretty scary if you have a white painted aircraft, cannot tell if there is ice until a good half inch is caked on, no windshield ice protection either... other than that the seminole is great, personally i find it easier to land than most single engine a/c's.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I have 500hrs in the BE76 and it is probably nicer to land than the Seminole. Newer versions of the latter tend to get a bit nose heavy on landing. However, the electric flaps on the Duchess can be fiddly and annoying for a while which can frustrate newbies.

Air speed seems to depend on the exact aircraft. I've flown about twenty BE76's and they are all sightly different. I guess it depends on how much abuse that they have had in their 20-25 years of service. POH performance calculations are not reliable in many older aircraft.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

PA-44 G-BGCO Still has the TKS

[Send Clowns]

Flown the Duchess now, and it is definitely nicer than the Seminole. Flaps are the only down side, but you get used to them and they're no worse than a C-150's. Nicer to handle, easier to land, better performance on one engine. I am 6'2" and had no problems with the cockpit. Roomier if you want that.