Training in Spain [Archive]

Bodie

27th Nov 2002, 18:25

Good point Dennisb. I know so many better and cheaper training establishments that Oxford, Cabair and BAE. These schools tend to pray on peoples belief that the airlines prefer to use them as their sole pool for pilots, but this is just not the case.

Not sure what you mean by 'contemplating one's navel' but I'll make no other comments because i'm sure you speak my language better than I speak yours!

My advice to Justin: yes you can get a licence in 60weeks but your not going to find many if any job opportunities, regardless of age. Get your ground school done with Bristol or similar, then look in to a CPL/IR with FI rating at a school like Triple A at Humberside (As an example). Save you about 20k! Spend your cash prudently as Gordon Brown would say.

As for the sim at Oxford, this is a PURE gimmick. The type of A/C you ‘MCC or JOT with’ is irrelevant. As a brand new CPL/IR holder, you don't need to be type rated or even have any experience of the aircraft the airlines uses; they will sort this out for you when you are offered the job (Hopefully). They probably won't even take in to account that you used a 737 during your MCC or JOT.

When you go for a sim ride, what they are looking for is that you know and apply the fundamentals to the flight, you don't have to know where all the dials are etc, you may have a co-pilot who you will instruct to set take off power, set cruise power etc, they will try to put you under pressure to see if you forget the fundamentals, they may try to distract you during a critical phase of the sim with trivial questions about your personal life, just to test your training and character. The fact that you happen to know where the dials are, or already have a 'feel' for the aircraft is unimportant. You could have MCC'd on a Seneca or 747 for all they care.

I am never failed to be surprised by some of the marketing ploys of these schools.

Cant answer your last question im afraid

Good luck!

Bodie.

Dennisb

27th Nov 2002, 18:50

Excuse me Bodie if I've offended you but this wasn't my intention... What I wanted to state is even I know that PPrune is mainly for UK people, I am surprise due to all people is mainly concentrated in a couple of FTO's without giving any chance outside ... and for wannabes studing outside sometime means no consideration, but again excuse me !

In the other hand you are right: at the end of the day it doesn't matter where did you get the License if you are enough good and if not if you have enough flight hours ...

By the way: for sure I speak better English than you Dutch or even Spanish, but this is a big advantage that we have ... :D

Cheers
Dennisb

toro01

27th Nov 2002, 19:40

Let me tell you the point of view of an spaniard

If i were you i would go for Adventia www.adventia.org they have more experience in teaching in English and the Chief Ground Instructor is a Brit. Talk to them. They are the best no doubt

Second choice Airmed they have been teaching in English for a whileand iit is on the coast you guarantee good weather.

Last one Aeromadrid, they just started in English and it will be a while until they have the right team.

Dick Whittingham

27th Nov 2002, 20:22

hola toro01

Le he visto en el foro español. Que me envies un e-mail privado con su opiniones de Adventia.

Dick W

Bodie

27th Nov 2002, 21:27

No offence taken Dennisb, infact I was agreeing with you totally :-)

Bodie

P.S. My ignorance is not a true reflection of the rest of us Brits!

carb

28th Nov 2002, 00:35

Train in Spain... I like this idea... Just been browsing Adventia's website -- love the translations ("Day of Open Doors", "detecting non-conformities") -- gave me a few questions about how foreign training would work though...

Does your initial Class 1 medical need to done in Spain, or is a UK class 1 fine? And can you end up with a UK JAR licence or must it be a Spanish JAR one? Not that it should matter really I guess, except your medical is supposed to match, right? (and if it's a Spanish class 1 can it be renewed in the UK?)

And I would have thought though that perhaps the Spanish CAA set their ATPL exams in Spanish rather than English?

Dennisb

28th Nov 2002, 07:39

I am very surprised reading that Adventia is the best option in Spain: hearing people from there and the time and money spent there, it seems not so good option, even good people working there. It is the old public school and the Spanish reputation is not very good, but toro01 if you are Spanish perhaps you know more than me :confused:

Before coming to Spain, my father asked to his bank financial information from Airmed and Adventia (AeroMadrid wasn't an option at that time) and this is also a good point of information...

The Initial Medical Class 1 must be done in Spain or to ask a convalidation from the foreign one (we have passed it here in Spain - it is cheaper ) but the renewal can be done in any JAR country.

The exams are in English language but not for the Spanish students who have to pass also an English language exam for getting the IR !!!

In Airmed we have a very nice simulator for MCC : Airbus 320 and in AeroMadrid they have the same but also for TR, both wth six axes motion. I do not know what simulator is using Adventia because for me never was an option... perhasp toro01 could help ?

Take a look at :

www.airmed.es

www.aeromadrid.com

Thanks bodie for your nice replay.

Dennisb

I forgot to tell toro01 that people in Airmed said that they started at least one year before Adventia teaching in English for foreing students, and that Adventia mainly have Spanish students learning in English ... so Adventia is no more experienced FTO !

By the way what happened with the A340 in Salamanca piloted by the Adventia Director - I have read (with some colleagues help) in the Spanish Forum - ? Is it true ?

Dennisb

vicarofdibley

28th Nov 2002, 18:21

I would take the Rain. And the fog...

Try ringing Multiflight at Leeds, you get treated like a person there as well which is an added bonus! Groundschool with Bristol will get you through the tough bits and the Hawker sim at Jerez is for MCC only, handy if you are thinking about applying to an airline which flies them.

despegue

28th Nov 2002, 18:42

Finished my training at Airmed and was happy with the result. Airlines are not at all looking where you did your training, it does not matter to them, the only thing they want to see is a good simulator ride and aptitude tests.
Spain is a wonderful country to fly in.
Be careful about Aeromadrid. They are based at Quatro-vientos which is by far the most dangerous field in Spain!!!(way too much planes and students wh speak ONLY spanish...) Plus, Quatro vientos is not IFR equipped.

Adventia is a good choice too, nice and modern planes and good quality instruction. The problem is that there aren't a lot of big airports around the corner, as we had in Valencia (Airmed).

Bae Jerez is of course excellent, no doubt about that, but you pay a lot too...

Anyway, I would opt for Bae or Airmed. Why? Well, both Valencia and Jerez are International Airports, I did my first solo amidst Lufthansa,Iberia,Sabena, Alitalia taking off or landing...!!! I flew regulary to Barcelona El Prat with a P28R, did Malaga, was number 37 for landing at Palma (but got a straight in as number one!!), Flew to Sevilla with the Cessna at FL105 surrounded by the most beautiful mountains, hopped to Ibiza and buzzed the beach and did a missed approach in Bilbao due to couds below minima... (so far for the "only fair-weather trainig").
Compare that to the UK...!!

Oh and the best part still has to come... Sangria and Patatas Bravas!!

cheerio!

D McQuire

28th Nov 2002, 21:52

Hi Justin,

I'm a relatively new addition to Jerez. Hopefully about to knock phase 1 on the head next week.

Bodie is absolutely on the money regarding the MCC and simulator used. Both Oxford and WMU make a big thing about their 737 sim but in reality the MCC has very little to do with actually handling the jet used. The MCC really is regarded as a very small part and dare I say insignificant part of the fATPL.

Airline recognition wise, BAe appears to be in as good a position as the other large FTO's. Good number of airlines have used the college.

Age wise you are well inside the envelope. There is a lot of late 20's to early 30's blokes here from the UK and Ireland. And one or two early 40's too.

I think you'll find the CAA list the 4 FTO's as the only suppliers of the ab-initio integrated course. Good few others should be listed
as supplying modular too.

Weather wise it's been excellent so far apart from the fact it's absolutely cacked it down for most of November. But I suppose it has to rain sometime even in Spain. Otherwise odd spot of morning fog screws things up occassionally but it seems to work out OK in the end as people do appear to graduate on schedule.

TJV

28th Nov 2002, 23:04

Just a couple of points

Vicar of Dibley, the Hawker 800 sim at Jerez is not just MCC only, it is used by MyTravel and BA for jet orientation and having completed the JOC at Jerez, MyTravel cadets have so far completed the A320 rating "without touching the sides" and have fared better in some cases than DEP's with considerably more experience.

Although it doesn't matter where you did your training in terms of getting a licence, you are likely to be viewed more favourably by an airline if you did your training somewhere other airlines have used. Not being snobbish - just basic psychology.

And also, Jerez is a great laugh it's got to be said.

despegue

29th Nov 2002, 14:46

Whatever you do, never do the MCC/LOFT on a turboprop sim... The airlines will just laugh at you.
I did 40h MCC on the A320sim and I saw in those 40h almost 80% of the type rating! Training was done by the Iberia Type rating instructors/examiners.

fergus448

28th May 2003, 22:45

I am looking into training at AeroMadrid but have been put off somewhat by the negative comments about it - dangerous, no IFR etc..

Does anyone know anything good about the school?

Cheers

I guess if I had to choose between Airmed and AeroMadrid, Airmed would probably be the better choice? English course has run for longer and the prices are much the same.

Do Airmed students have good job prospects?

Fergus

Having said that I am still impressed with AeroMadrid. Ignacio is very helpful but these doubts are worrying.

F

Wee Weasley Welshman

28th May 2003, 23:02

STOP BEING IMPRESSED BY THE SIM!!!

The Sims for MCC are irrelevant. I'd use an upturned orange crate with dials chalked on if the CAA would license it.

You should be asking about student to aircraft ratios. They are critical to your chances of finishing the course on time, on budget and with good continuity.

You should be asking about averaged instructor experience. Does the average instructor have 500hrs instructional 1,000hrs, or 5,000+hrs. That is going to make a heck of a lot more difference to the quality of your training than whether or not the simulator is a fake Boeing or an obscure old bizjet.

Is the accomodation quiet and air conditioned? How many are in each groundschool class? How up to date is the CBT material? What ratio of flying students to examiners is there? What percentage of flying days are unflyable due weather? Does the airfield have any odd restrictions on training during peak times/months?

All these questions and more are far far more pertinent than the fact Big Airways may have sent cadets to use the shiny sim there sometime in the last decade.

WWW

madman1145

29th May 2003, 03:26

Hello there :} ..

First of all - I'll have to comply with what the WWW man is writing - the future employer really don't care where and how you got your license - not a presumption, but what I have heard from numerous pilots ...
It's the reputation, environment and fascilitation of the FTO AND the small things in the daily live that should decide your choice of FTO, because YOU are gonna be the 365/24/7 the next 2 years ...
Don't pay that much attention to what MCC simulator you will be using - it's "only" MCC course, not a simulator for Type Rating - the Airliners really don't care that much what MCC simulator you used ...

A few answers to this topic:
1.: No, at Airmed there are students that has Spanish or their own national medical and that is accepted - so far, because it is in conflict with the JAA regulations having a foreign initial medical certificate in another JAA country where the education is taken place ..
2.: If your own country has exchanged "Letter of Mutual Recognition" with Spain on JAR-FCL 1 (fixed wing certificate) and JAR-FCL 3 medical certificate) and no restrictions is done to that, there will only be a fee charged for the change - you do have to stay at least 180 days in your country before the exchange can be taken place and when you obtain your own country certificate, the Spanish one will be cancelled - you can only hold one certificate within JAA ..
3.: The official CAA exams in Spain are also done in English ..
4.: When I made my survey back in September last year, I didn't not come by Adventia - never heart about them before - so I suppose their reputation is unknown in the Business ..
5.: I went to another FTO visiting them back then downhere, Aerofan - asking them what nationalities there where in the English classes - it was Spanish students and the next class would be Italian students - think of that, think of what kind of language would be used in the ground school - Spanglish it is :rolleyes: ..
In International classed, it has to be from different nationalities so English is forced to be used for communication - not just 1 or 2 nationalities ..
6.: About the weather downhere - ha ha - not THAT nice as you might think - Airmed state it is 328 days of sunshine (I think), that is exaggerated - if it has to be true, from now on and to February next year it has to be ALL sunshine every day - and I just love the Spanish geography - everytime I fly I enjoy having the view to the ocean, mini small fields usually with trees on, mountains, cities at the same time - there is mountains surrounding Valencia all the way around, only the beach is clear of that, more less. And during Engine Failure exercises, you really need to know what you can use around Valencia for emergency landing because you don't get further oppertunities - no nice big fields from big farmers, usually they are with trees on or flotted with rice - like to the south there are special fields for ex. emergency landings because otherwise you would be kind of fu.... - sorry my French :) ..
The other day, had so much turbulence that I never experienced before, even in Gliders - should have had a helmet on that day :} ..
As a former gliderpilot I'm bit used to fly in Denmark - so so so boring geography compared to this place ..
And fog - got quite a lot of that from time to time - on only 13 flights I've had 1 flight cancelled and nearly 3 due to bad weather conditions (fog, low skyes, poor visibility etc.) ..
So to say that flying in Spain is easy and just sunshine - njaahhh - it's fun and challenging is my words ..

And I will agree with Despegue - also satisfied so far with the place, with Airmed, Valencia Airport with its fascilities (the controllers speak quite good English) ..
If you wanna se pictures from the place, look at my class website - www.airmedpilots.com - there is a Gallery ...

moggie

29th May 2003, 20:14

Whilst the airlines may not care what FNPT II (MCC) device was used to get your MCC certificate, you might!

A jet FNPT II (sim) will stretch you more than a turbo prop will and so will test your capacity more. That stretching of your capacity is part of what the MCC is about - forcing you to prioritise your task load and operate in accordance with the SOP to get the job done under demanding circumstances.

If you then do a selection ride, the extra speed of the jet will help - if the sim ride is done on a jet sim then you are already up to speed and if the sim ride is done on a turboprop you have capacity to spare (as a friend of mine has just found out on his Flybe selection).

As for 737 vs Hawker800 vs any other jet, what matters is how it is operated rather than what it is. ATP at Southampton used to have a Caravelle (how many of those do you see these days?) but it did not matter. Flown to an airline SOP and the appropriate flight profiles the end result is the same.

BA, MYTravel, Britannia and others for whom we do training that goes beyond the basic MCC require a jet - and they don't really care what sort. The handling and operating skills that the extended courses (Jet Orientation Course etc.) give the trainees really does smooth their path on the type rating. TJV is spot on with the MYTravel feedback, by the way.

In my opinion - don't worry about whether or not it is a 737 or Hawker, as long as it is a jet FNPT II then you will be better placed. More important than that is to try to do some extra above and beyond the MCC - which can do little more than give you the very briefest into to airline flying. Use that extra FNPT II (MCC) time to get your multi crew skills up to a level where they are second nature as THIS, more than anything else you do on the whole ATPL course, will ease your transition to A320/B737/ATR42/Dash 8 etc.

WWW makes some bvery good points about the other facilities - and remember, there is no law that says you have to do groundschool, flying and MCC at the same place.

ECHIE

2nd Jun 2003, 05:26

I am an ex-student from Airmed. At the moment I am busy with an instructor course at Aeromadrid. I would everybody advise to go and have a look at these schools. They have a lot to offer for a very good price.

I personally would advise Aeromadrid because they have very good ground instructors (mostly all from the university of Madrid or for specific subject Iberia captains) and a very good airplanes/simulators. They are much better equiped then Airmed with material and people. Also they have much more experience in teaching, they are therefore also the oldest flying school in Spain.

Despegue.......about the Airbus 320 at Airmed, it is not a simulator but a FNPT2 procedure trainer, you can´t compare that with a Airbus 320 Full Flight Simulator that Aeromadrid has. Also I can see that you have never been at Quatro Vientos. It is a perfectly safe airport with good facilities. Ok, it is only VFR equiped, but nearby you have VOR´s and NDB´s and of course other IFR airports you can fly to, so perfect for the initial IFR training. The biggest part of the IFR/ME training is done on Valencia to complete the training.

Also Aeromadrid is now investing a lot of money in simulators. I have just flown 5 hours on their new FNPT2 trainer (costs 1,5 milion euros) and I have to say that I was impressed. Also my colleagues from the SAS academy that are in my class, where impressed about the simulator. It had very nice handling caracteristics and very good visuals.

For everybody that is interested in following flight training in Spain and has some questions, you can always contact me on my email: [email protected].

With kind regards,

Theo

despegue

2nd Jun 2003, 07:46

EC-HIE, (that plane is now sold by the way...)

Have you ever flown in the Airmed Sim? I did 40h on it, and then flew some hours on a "Level D" one. Exactly the same. Only thing missing on the Airmed sim is Alternate and Direct law.

Teachers at Airmed for the English courses include some native Brits, including the former Nav. teacher for the RAF.

I would say, go for either of both, Airmed or Aeromadrid but in any case:
Train in Spain!

Despegue

ps. Theo, it seems that you are now working for AEM and mr. Cabrera?!

ECHIE

2nd Jun 2003, 17:59

Despegue, I am sorry but also me who has never flown the planes myself but who has seem both of the simulators operating could see easy the diffrence between them. The way they are build etc. Remember that a Full Flight Simulator is the one requiered by the JAA to do your typerating in and not a FNPT2. It surprise me that you say that they are the same, for me their was no comparisation between them, except that they are both used to do the MCC course in.

I am still in training at Aeromadrid. If I am going to work there? I hope it because it is a fabulous school! And you.....if I am correct you are working for Airmed as an agent. Or you stopped with that already?

Saluutjes,

Theo

FougaMagister

2nd Jun 2003, 23:09

WWW - don't agree with you about the sim. There are two ways to regard MCC; either as an (increasingly mandatory) add-on to one's ME/IR, just a course completion certificate (what you seem to recommend), or as an extra experience whereby on top of learning crew SOPs, you get exposure to full-motion, jet ops (with the necessary anticipation on your part), and advanced systems such as AFDS, A/THR, MCDU, EFIS etc. Plus, some of your time on MCC will actually be LOFT.

I still believe it's better to have sampled a jet sim if and when you get the chance of an airline sim assessment (do you know many airlines that will check your skills on a B-200 fixed-base sim?) and/or for the start to a type-rating on anything remotely modern (i.e EFIS-equipped).

I chose a jet sim for my MCC (on the advice of an airline recruitment captain), it cost me £800 more, but it was worth every penny. It's true that the airlines won't care much what sim you did your MCC on, at least not during the 2 to 1 interview - it will prove useful later on...

Cheers

despegue

3rd Jun 2003, 02:27

ALWAYS do your MCC on a JET!
More and more airlines have this as a requirement if you want to apply as low-timer.
Example: SN Brussels Airlines held a recruitement last winter. Low-timers were invited on 1 condition: Having AT LEAST 20h of MCC on... an EFIS equipped jet.

Both Aeromadrid, with 30h on A320, as Airmed International Flight School, with 40h on the A320, provide this.

WWW, MCC is in my opinion the most important phase of your training. It will decide how well you do at a sim ride. An airline doesn't want to see that you perform the perfect parallel entry and holding or an ILS with less than half-a-dot-deflection, no, they want to see if you can work in a MODERN multi-crew cockpit.

Theo,
Ik begin binnenkort in Chechi' als instructeur.
De zaken in LEVC zijn trouwens echt veranderd hoor, in goede zin dan! Groeten aan Ignatio als je die zou zien.

madman1145

3rd Jun 2003, 03:14

Hey there;

I'm an Airmed student - as I have written times before, I choosed Airmed because they seemed to be a good place (visiting them and asking around in the Business) and even that I was tolled by people that Aero Madrid is a good well-known school (incl. from Airmed themself), I cancelled them due to lack of answers within resonable time - I'm now tolled that has changed - fine ..
Aero Madrid has no former experience with English ATP classes, something Airmed now has and something Aero Madrid has to go through now - it's alot of money to spend guys ..

Also they are not situated in an Airport with serious commercial traffic "to mingle around with" during take-off and landing procedures, no ILS and stuff like Valencia has and something that we are using or will be using / being affected by everytime we fly - a big pluss in my eyes :ok: ..
One can also choose here what kind of flying one wants within short distance - ocean, flatland, mountains ..
And I've seen your Airport because I visited Aerofan backthen ..

Regarding MCC course - comon - we are talking about MCC, not Type Rating - one can get that different places - the one Airmed has fullfill that purpose - 6-axes, full-motion - there is at Airmed a former Airbus engineer - he stated that Airmed's MCC simulator is close to the same as a Type Rating version - it's his words, don't know why I shouldn't believe that ..
And again - it's MCC course - it's being done on a Jet simulator with 6-axes motion (A-320) - and if one wants a Type Rating after completing the ATPL course, there is many places to go ...
And by the way - how many hours is it you get at Aero Madrid in your Level D A-320 simulator ??

And about the ground teachers at Airmed - have nothing to complain about - in general they now their stuff very well and what they are talking about and several of them has a solid background in the subject they are teaching :ok: ...

And practical things - how long distance is it now that the students has from where they live to the Airport at Quatro Vientos (in time/minutes) ..
From what Aerofan showed me it looks like a nice long walk :hmm: ..

Best Regards;
madman - a happy Airmed student :O

Wee Weasley Welshman

3rd Jun 2003, 07:04

Lets get a few things clear.

1) No British airline cares what Sim you did an MCC on. Its not logged anywhere, MCC certificates are often just run off a schools bubblejet printer, you could lie and they would never know or check. THEY DON'T CARE.

2) A lot of you are talking about a Jet Orientation Course being secretly what an MCC can be if you go on a big fancy Sim. Tosh. There is plenty in the MCC syllabus as it is. Its mostly about how to run a checklist and how to liase with another pilot. You could have the motion and visual switched Off for all that! MCC isn't a JOC course so stop pretending its a mini one.

3) If you wanted to prepare a bit for Sim assessments then here is the best way. Do a VERY cheap MCC - say £1,500. With the money saved over a big fancy one - I've seen £3,500 advertised but lets say you save a Grand - you wait until you've actually passed an interview and been offered a Sim assessment. You find out what its on - NOT hard - people often ask here "Does anyone know what the XYZ sim assessment profile is"? You then ring around and find just such a sim - maybe even the same one. For a Grand you should easily be able to afford a couple of hours on it. Why not combine your efforts and money with someone else also going for the same assessment? Great idea. A couple of hours practicing the actual rumoured profile used by the people you are trying to impress a week before you are trying to impress them. Thats a HECK of a lot better than doing an MCC on something vaguely similar 6 months ago.

4) I wouldn't train anywhere in Spain where the instructors and the students didn't all work in English. And it would have to be pretty good English. The course is hard enough without the slightest language barrier.

5) The MCC is a load of old Tosh anyway dreamt up by a committee in answer to a question nobody asked. And the airlines were supposed to pay for it after they hired you.

6) Bah, humbug.

WWW

moggie

3rd Jun 2003, 16:55

WWW - way off the plot on your first few comments, old chap.

For example, those airlines that sponsor cadets all insist that their MCC is done on a jet FNPTII - not a King Air.

Most of them are combining their MCC with a JOC (BA, MyTravel, Britannia to name a few) - and if they are so keen on jet FNPTIIs and you apply to them with a turboprop MCC behind you you are giving yourself one disadvantage that your contemporaries who have done jet MCCs and are applying for the same positions do not have.

MCC may be a minimum standard, but who says you have to aim for the minimum? If you do your MCC with a good FTO with a reputation for providing good JOC training (I could name a few but wont!), then your certificate will carry more weight than one from a school using an "upturned orange crate with a few dials in it". This is because the MCC course was conducted by the same instructors on the same equipment as used to provide those respected JOCs.

Basic MCC of 15 hours is laughably inadequate, but that does not mean that it is not valuable. If you do a GOOD MCC course, you will learn a lot in those 15 hours that will be invaluable when you go for selection. You do not learn as much as a BA or MYT trainee on a JOC but they have 44 and 52 hourse respectively. But you are allowed to do more than the basic number of hours.

Think about this folks - the MCC course aims to fill 15 hours with the stuff that a 44 hour JOC contains - you will experience it all, learn a lot but never achieve a real degree of fluency and familiarity. However, spend a few extra quid at the end of your MCC on buying a few extra hours to get some manual flying practice, with the motion switched on, practicing flightdeck management under high workloads and exploring more of the skills needed to be an effective airline pilot and you WILL do better on that selection sim ride than if you just did the basic MCC - the rules of which require it to be flown on autopilot.

Question: how many airlines do selection sim rides? A: Most of them.

Q: How many do it on jets? A: Most of them.

Q: How many let you use the autopilot? A: None of them!

Q: If you should end up doing that sim evaluation on a prop, how much spare capacity do you have if you have flown the procedures and holds at jet speeds but are then evaluated at turboprop speeds? A: Loads - as a mate of mine has just found out on his Flybe selection (he got the job).

Further suggestion: even if you do your MCC on a TP, jet some synthetic jet handling time in somewhere as well.

youflyturkey!!

3rd Jun 2003, 16:57

Does anybody have an email address for Aero Madrid? I've been trying to use their contact icon via the website but I must have a fault with my email and it won't send.

Want to do the Modular course as have to combine working with paying for the course (far too skint to afford £40,000+ for the integrated course :mad: ) Do these schools let you do that? I'm planning on going over during my annual leave, flying like a mad thing when I'm over there to rack up the hours and do the ATPL learning module via ditance learning.

p.s. anybody got the websites for Bournemouth's and Bristol's ground schools?

Chuffer Chadley

3rd Jun 2003, 17:08

For bournemouth try GTS:

www.gtserv.co.uk

I hope that WWW and moggie can kiss and make up soon!

Ciao!
CC

Wee Weasley Welshman

3rd Jun 2003, 18:10

Airline Cadets are going to be on a type rating course next week - no wonder their sponsoring airline combines an MCC and JOC course on a fancy jet Sim. That no good reason why poor self sponsored Joe Bloggs should part with thousands of pounds of his own money trying to emulate them.

Sure sure we'd all like to go to the biggest shiniest school, use the nicest newest big sims, perhaps do the CPL on a twin for more multi time etc. etc. BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD IT CAUSE ITS SO BLIMMIN EXPENSIVE.

MCC is a prime area where cost cutting won't hurt you.

All this talk of being good prep for a sim assessment is a total red herring. As I have outlined above there are better more pertinent ways to prepare for an airline sim assessment than by doing an expensive MCC months or years before you ever even get an airline interview.

You could pass an MCC by watching an ITVV 'from the flightdeck video' 20 times. How you operate a checklist, how you do a brief and how you crosscheck everything with the other guy - all shown in digital stereo colour for £11.99 from Transair.

Its not rocket science. People used to quite hapily jump into airliners with 200hrs and no MCC and manage quite well thank you very much.

WWW

despegue

3rd Jun 2003, 18:16

WWW,

What utter nonsence!

1)Britain is only a small part of the JAA , don't focus on your little island, it's time to start looking European. Most carriers on the continent now DEMAND an MCC on JET and at least 20h.

2) As a native Brit, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when dealing with language barriers. The course is given in English , at Airmed by Spanish,British and Italian instructors. I can honestly say that a lot of International students have more problems in understanding the UK instructors than the Spanish/Italian ones. Why? We as "foreigners" always aim to use the most simple words possible in an explanation. No slang, no proverbs Europeans have never heard about, but understandable, clear International English. By the way, put a person from Liverpool, Aberdeen and Houston together, all native English speakers, and let's see if they understand everything they say from the first moment...

Wee Weasley Welshman

3rd Jun 2003, 20:31

1) I will focus on this little island thanks. By far the bulk of traffic here is UK focused. The UK also has the largest aviation sector of any country and many many times larger than Spain. Debate on other EU countries is welcome nonetheless. If airlines on the continent are requiring 20hr MCC on Sims then that is curious. The MCC was never ever ever designed to be type specific. Generic medium cost FNPTII's were outlined as being ideal at the outset of JAR training regs.

Just why a "Jet Efis" sim with a bit of motion is thought to be superior to a - say - Kingair sim is illogical. A little Bizjet sim with centreline thrust, care free FADEC engine handling, quick spool thrust and simple push button anti-ice etc is a piece of piddle to tool around the ILS. In case you hadn't noticed Jet speeds these days and TP speeds out of the cruise are just about the same. Everything is 250 below FL100 as per SOP's. Turning onto localisers etc. wil be about 190kts for a jet and maybe 170 for a TP. Hardly cosmic. The days when a TP was a HS748 and a Jet was a VC10 are long long gone.

Any airlines stipulating a "Jet" MCC have obviously not taken the time to understand much about JAA training in the third millenium.

2) As a native Brit who was a commercial flying instructor at BAE Jerez who taught French, Scandanavian and Spanish students for their CPL/IR's I have an excellent insight into language barriers in training. Thank you.

You actually prove my point. When you are not both of the same first language then training communication is constrained. You have to use absolutely standard phrases otherwise misunderstandings occur.

Subtle intonation and helpful use of tone are lost. You end up with a jilted text book manner of communication. I believe things are even worse on the groundschool side of things - you NEED colourful expression of ideas so they stick in your mind until the exam. I still remember today half my ATPL Met through the rude songs and dittys taught to me by a walrus moustached Yorkshireman who had the class in stitches half the time.

That doesn't happen when you have to keep everything clinical so the mixed class of Brits, Italians, Spaniards and Whoever can all follow whats being said and take notes.

Which is why I advise people to train completely in their own language.

WWW

moggie

4th Jun 2003, 06:09

mmmmmmmmmm...... jet speeds = turboprop speeds.

Lets see, Beech King Air - 230kt cruise, 140kt hold and 110kt approach.

Jet (all): Cruise 250kt below FL100 and 280kt plus above. 210kt hold and 130kt or so on the approach.

Yes, 250kt max below FL100 - but in your jet it is worth going above FL100 and exploring some of that 280kt plus stuff which actually gives groundspeeds of 450kt or so (or even more!!!).

OK, so which TP will climb high enough, fast enough to cruise at M.74 between Manchester and Aberdeen and in doing so strecth your capacity and improve you flt deck management?

Remember, Andy, you went to Go! (Go Orange!) with many, many hours under your belt and as far as the handling and capacity was concerned your MCC was probably as waste of time - although I trust that you still learnt something about working as part of a crew, rather than being the master in the RHS.

This will not be the case for most pilots with a licence that still has wet ink on it.

I personally had no trouble making the transition onto my first airliner (RAF VC10, a particularly quick aeroplane which was certifed to M.925 and which I have hand flown at that speed, FL430) - because I had trained at jet speeds in the RAF system. However, an MCC type course (well - actually a JOC) would have been damned useful in making the difficult transition to that airliner's multi-crew flightdeck.

Remember, folks, that although an MCC is most definitely NOT a mini-JOC, a few extra hours tacked on the end can go along way to making it so.

Some figures: between 1996 and 2001 when BA were pumping as many pilots as possible through the training system, they calculated that the JOC courses saved £1.25million PER YEAR on remedial training delivered to cadet pilots on type conversion/line training (even after paying for the JOC). BA insisted that the simulators used had to be jets, ideally with EFIS - or no contract (motion was an additional plus point).

despegue

4th Jun 2003, 07:04

At Airmed, we did not only learn how to work as a
crew, but we also learned how to handle a jet (raw data flying, steep turns,thrust/attitude, speed/attitude), how to manage/program the FMS, Autopilot,EFIS, and handle it's malfunctions (MCDU failure at take-off,...). Fly by wire problems, protections were covered.
We did engine failures before and after V1, Fires before and after V1, Decompressions at cruising altitudes,Flight director/autopilot runaway's combinations of pilot incapacitation and Engine failure after rotation at Pamplona (notoriously difficult N-1 procedure!), LOFT exercises, low visibility procedures, icing, contaminated RWY, crosswind, visual patterns. 40h of bloody hard work, never studied so much but the most fun of all my training! (thanks to the sublime Iberia instructors teaching the Airmed MCC!)
I am sure that Aeromadrid offers a similar programme. In short, we got a JOC with all the trimmings. I doubt that any pilot can disagree that these things will greatly improve one's chances in securing a job and/or succeeding the type-rating.
Yes, MCC can be a waste of time and money if you don't do it properly. Just as with everything in aviation. MCC is the most important phase, it is the transition between a piston flier and an Airline pilot. These are the words of my MCC instructor, who is the Chief Instructor/examiner A340, B757 at Iberia, spending his whole career in training. (thank you, Capt. J. Fons!)

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Jun 2003, 07:40

OK, so which TP will climb high enough, fast enough to cruise at M.74 between Manchester and Aberdeen and in doing so strecth your capacity and improve you flt deck management?

Dornier 328 will do that.

I think JOC courses are great. But they aren't MCC courses. To blur the distiniction serves no purpose.

To draw on my limited experience I have seen how both Go and easyJet operate a B737-300. Same aircraft flying same routes to same airfields. Completely different SOP's, whole different philosophy in who does what, different checklist, different calls made at different times.

And hardest of all is to change from one to another.

Makes me wonder if the average 200hr Joe Bloggs would be better off arriving at his first airline without ever being taught any type of commercial SOP's i.e. no MCC whatsoever.

I maintain that the cheapest Certificate is the best and the money saved deployed in other ways to help you pass that Sim assessment.

If Daddy's rich then by all means do your MCC on a Cat D 744 at Cranebank.

WWW

moggie

4th Jun 2003, 17:24

Of course, in an ideal world one of the following would occur:

a) You know which airline you are going to so the multi-talented instructors on your MCC/JOC can train you in the appropriate SOPs beofre you get there, easing your path through the type conversion. This is what we do for BA, Brit, MYT, Aer Lingus etc.

b) Your airline will give you your one and only MCC as part of your type rating - although the airline must be specifically approved to do this and not too many are.

Failing that, you try to find something which is typical of the industry - from my experience, for example, most of the charter type operators have similar SOPs.

BTW WWW, last time I saw a copy of the Orange SOP it was almost identical to the BA SOP with the monitored (split) approach removed. How did GO and easy compare?

FougaMagister

4th Jun 2003, 18:11

WWW, you might be the Wannabees forum moderator, but your comments only serve to show that you seem to know close to nothing about what low-hrs. guys (and gals) are going through these days.

If we want our CV to stand out from the rest of the stack (and believe me, it's a helluva big stack these days), there is nothing wrong about that. We do not want to suffer from a "comparative disadvantage" at that point, and a jet EFIS MCC is one of the ways through which we can make our CV stand out from the competition.

It's all nice and easy to stand there pontifying, but you badly need a trip into REAL wannabees land to GET REAL!

Enjoy your flying - at least you are doing some!

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Jun 2003, 18:33

Moggie a) Joe Bloggs self sponsored hasn't a clue which airline may offer him a sim assessment in the coming years. b) Virtually all self sponsored guys do their own MCC.

Fouga - I know a heck of a lot about what low time wannabes are going through thanks. I still have my instructors ticket, I am involved behind the scenes in recruitment, I talk to dozens of aquaintances in exactly that position and I have been moderating this board for 4 years. You wanna tell me who has a broader perspective?

If you think a £4,000 MCC is going to give you a worthwhile edge over a £1,500 MCC then my friend, good luck. I would advise the money savable on a cheap MCC can be used more usefully. That is all.

WWW

ECHIE

4th Jun 2003, 19:17

Despegue........CONGRATULATIONS!!!! I hope to follow you soon!

About flight training in Spain, it is a very good option. The training given in Aeromadrid and Airmed is of a very good quality. For me who has been to both schools Aeromadrid is better in my opinion, but both of them are excellent!!!

My advise to wannabees: go to Spain and visit the Airmed and Aeromadrid. It is a lot of money you are going to invest and now a days a trip to Spain with Easyjet is not to much and a good investment in your future. Have a look around these schools and say honestly to yourself if it is worth to pay 20.000 euros or even more for an education in England.

With kind regards,

Theo

FougaMagister

4th Jun 2003, 19:33

WWW - just for the record, my jet EFIS MCC cost £2,800 not £4,000. So much for your "broader perspective", hey?

Happy landings.

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Jun 2003, 21:51

Hope you Jet EFIS time time stands you in good stead.

WWW

moggie

5th Jun 2003, 06:03

Moggie a) Joe Bloggs self sponsored hasn't a clue which airline may offer him a sim assessment in the coming years. b) Virtually all self sponsored guys do their own MCC.

The point I was trying to make was that IDEALLY you would target your MCC to the appropriate airline or have it done by that airline on your first type conversion. I am well aware that most self-sponsored chaps/chapesses have to stump up for their own.

However, I beg to disagree that "changing SOP is harder than learning the first". By and large, SOPs are broadly similar (although some do stand out, the rest are pretty closely grouped). As I said, last time I cast my eyes over the EJ SOP it was a near complete copy of the BA one - and all the others that I have seen in the last few years (Emirates, Icelandair, MYT, Brit, Air Malta) have been VERY much alike. If they were not, we as instructors could not flip flop from one to another several times in a week. the BA SOP is also used by GB Airways, of course.

But, that first SOP you learn is 180 degrees out from the way you fly in obtaining your ATPL/CPL and that IS a challenge. After that they are variations on a theme.

Now, try going from VC10 multicrew SOP to instructing on Harriers - that is a challenge and a half!

moggie

23rd Jul 2003, 23:14

Further to the above discussion, anyone considering an MCC should read the attached survey before committing their money.

Whilst a JIC is not the same as an MCC, an MCC plus some extra hours will get much the same result.

http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm

PPRuNe Towers

24th Jul 2003, 20:56

It's a long time since I've seen so many transparent agendas coupled with so much willy waving in one thread.

Simple version for the text messaging generation: Re Read the posts by the Welshman - he is the only one giving the unvarnished truth and thinking of your debts!!

Now for the tricky bits with long words in like 'wheelbarrow' and 'marmalade'.

You are being sold a crock of crap in this thread especially by the entire Spanish mob who are now beginning to make the Floridian's look like amateurs.

1: Human nature is such that most people will always justify a large outlay they chose to make as being considered, wise and ultimately worthwhile.

2: Much of the time you are being written to by people making their living from you and they are not telling you this. They are pushing their 'brand' desperate to get recognition. They are desperate because they have such a short time to establish the brand with you. The half life of a wannabee is a short and fragile thing. Once you've signed for a school it's all over because they know and we know that the day you get your licence the school becomes a fading memory.

3: You are not getting advice from anyone with more than 3 years in an airliner seat.

4: The qualified are not getting jobs because there aren't any. If you are a captain though there is work if you can manage to walk to the aircraft unaided. This will change - again reread what the Welshman says and not what someone who has courses to fill up tells you.

5 They rely on you being impressed by just a few school names with supposed airline connections. They rely on you getting all wet and moist over a sexy sounding sim and they hope they can sucker airlines into looking at them again when the market picks up a bit.

Still with me? Now here's the truth from the airline side of things. Cut and paste this onto your desktop to read everytime someone wants your money.

Airline Secret Number 1:

The airlines don't know who the hell the schools are. The only ones that might impinge on their consciousness are the ones like CTC that invite them for an annual free pissup! They want someone with a full licence, bags of enthusiasm and who they reckon their skippers can put up with for many hours a day. That's it - they don't have the time to look at schools - they don't care. It's the CAA they have to keep happy and therefore you have an entrance ticket - one the CAA - not the damn schools - guarantee

Airline Secret Number 2:

The airlines know that the MCC is supposed to be provided by and funded by them. The schools have leapt in because it wasn't specified that they couldn't. They joined in because it gives them the potential to keep each student in the system longer during lean times and thereby continue the revenue stream - from you suckers!!

FTO Secret No. 1

The minute 5 of you said you'd got MCC to help stand out from the others it was game over - avalanches of money, trebles all round. You are doing it again with Jet training devices. The schools can't believe their luck, their jaws drop further at what a load of fashion conscious sheep you collectively become.

As you've now painfully worked out this means therefore that JOC's are simply new ways of taking more money from you because you don't have a job to go to. Please write this on your hand to remember folks. The airlines don't know what a JOC or one of the clones is. There is no requirement for it. Training departments at airlines would be extremely pissed off because they want you to learn their way. They waste a lot of time and money training the old stuff out of your single pilot IR/GFT skillset without it being added to by non company or type specific MCC's and other add on tosh.

FTO Secret No.2:

Jet sims - Spanish, UK don't give a stuff. They are luring you in with pretty toys. They are sales devices to impress - marketing tools. Spending more time on classic round dials are the most important thing you can ever do to ensure a long, safe career. Anything else is sales patter. If any one of the FTO folks argues otherwise just ask them why we had to use desktop Frasca's at a time when they couldn't produce enough pilots to fill demand and they were awash with money?

Stating you need efis skills is arrant rubbish because you have to relearn totally with each airfamer's product you move to. It's just like Windows, Mac and Linux users having swop machines. It looks familiar but it turns out that all you really know is how to get into serious trouble :E :E No ripostes on that point from any dreamers or sim fans. You've either got that real life T-shirt or you haven't.

Finally, check this thread again and especially any replies to this post that appear.

Use you new found skill and judgement to categorise each post.

Someone one step ahead of you justifying their immense spending decision;

Someone keeping a roof over their head by taking wannabees money;

or someone who has done everything you want to do, succeeded, paid off every penny of debt by working on a jet flight deck and is giving you cooly thought through advice from a proper, experienced airline perspective.

Finally, I've been flying since 1975 and I will tell you this for free. In your journey through flight training you will be very lucky if you even meet 5 people in FTO's with integrity and no other thought than helping you. With a very few honourable and legendary exceptions they will be career flying and ground instructors with no say in sales, marketing, premises or equipment.

Therefore the conclusion should be obvious - those with a say in the last 4 items should be held at arms length and treated as, at best, deeply suspicious until they prove otherwise and more often as utterly without merit. The wannabees motto is 'caveat emptor.' If your latin's a little rusty that translates to 'sales and marketing does attract some scum but the worst head for aviation'..............

Regards
Rob

Moggie,

My apologies for singling you out but I am keeping this response separate from my overall thoughts. You are giving considered and, what you honestly believe to be, accurate advice on SOPS.

However, I'm afraid you are wrong and you are wrong in every conceivable way purely because you are an instructor. It also proves the reasons for our vehement opposition here at the Towers to FTO's carrying out MCC's and all the other flim flam and scams.

The reason SOP's seem similar and easy to slip between is because, well err, you are an instructor - it's what you do, umm repeatedly, day in and day out.

As working airline pilots what we do is the same SOP's repeatedly - if fact more repeatedly than you can ever dream of. That's how they got their name not because they change them everyday. It is habituated learned behaviour - it goes deeper than you or any other instructor will ever understand.

SOPS are like breathing. One day, out of the blue an SOP call will come from your lips that is from a company ten years in your past.

The days after SOPS change at an airline are the most desperate, uncomfortable foul ones. The entire flightdeck operation becomes an uncontrolled, shambolic farce.

Ask the guys at easyJet - they went from the SOP's you describe to standard Boeing overnight - oh, and then they changed again recently with the adoption of many Go procedures.

I see the private forums - you don't. Without exception the greatest cause of operational heartbache on the line is new SOP's. Especially when it's just because of a new 'squadron boss' making his or her mark.

One of the many reasons Scroggs. the Welshman and myself step in and take the FTO's to task is because they don't have the faintest idea what an airline pilot's life entails in the important areas.

MCC's outside of the airlines are an entirely counter productive scam. SOP's to working pilots are totally different languages - often many in the same company.

I'm afraid your penultimate paragraph is the only correct one for an airline pilot. You care about what you write but it just proves why we constantly have to ride on the FTO's.

Genuine regards to you,
Rob

moggie

24th Jul 2003, 22:10

PPRUNE Towers, I disagree with a lot of what you say but then I would - I am only an Instructor!!!!

Our department is run by peoplewith plebnty of experience in airliners!) and by and large the courses we provide are those that have been REQUESTED by the airlines, not forced upon them by us.

It was a customer that came to us with the JOC concept because they had worked out that it would save money (by cutting the amount of training time that they had to give cadet pilots. It was other customers that CAME TO US to ask us to provide similar courses for them, once they saw the benefits.

They have proven to themselves (without any cajoling from us) that a JOC saves them money - full stop.

Now GAPAN/EPST have asked the airlines what they think and - surprise surprise - they also think that having to spend less money on training their pilots is good for their business (as long as standards are maintained). They made those decisions, not us. They have concluded that a Jet Introduction Course (self-sponsored version of the airline-sponsored JOC) will save money for them by making it easier to train their low hours pilots. They worked that out without any help from us.

Now, a really progressive airline will pay for the JOC/JIC but there are not many out there that can or will do that (hell, a certain Irish airline does not even pay for the type rating - do you want to blame me for that?). In that case they need to get the best possible raw material and have concluded - without any help from us - that employing someone who has bought a JIC gives them better raw material than someone who has only (their words) done a turbo prop MCC.

The facts are incontrovertable - a decent JIC/JOC or even Jet MCC with a few extra hours of handling tacked on the end, will make you an easier person for the airline to train. Even if those facts were not true then the survey by GAPAN would indicate that this is the way the airlines think - so if the airlines think that way then we, you, and everyone else pretty much has to go along with it.

As for us "stealing" MCC from the airlines - what a joke. You could go to the CAA website if you like and download a list of those UK approved FTOs and Type training organisations(including the UK airlines that do their own type conversions - such as BA, Britannia etc.) and see who is approved to do MCC. Very few of those airlines that have bothered to take up MCC approval actually do it themselves - because it is not worth it. It is too expensive for them to do it in full flight sims with training captains - much cheaper to get someone else like us to subcontract (and some of them do, even though they have the facilities). Why? because we do a good job at a good price.

The webpage in question is
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf

and you want to look at part 3 of the PDF document that it gives you. Note that although some of those airlines are approved to do MCC - they still get third parties to do it for them. My, we must be good at forcing them to waste money!

Bottom line - it seems that the airlines want this training because it saves them money.

Bottom line - they have in fact worked that out for themselves (clever chappies that they are).

Bottom line - if they think that a prospective FO should have this course under their belt, regardless of logic, then that prospective FO better have it or he/she will be passed over for one that does.

question: for which airline do you work and could you give me the names of the people within your training departments who think that JOC/JIC is a waste of time?

Alex Whittingham

24th Jul 2003, 23:09

Steady ladies! There's truth on both sides.

PPRuNe Towers has pretty much hit the nail on the head, except that, when it comes to MCC, type ratings, etc., most airlines just want to keep their costs down as much as possible. As long as wannabees are prepared to pay for their own training and the CVs pile up on the Chief Pilots' desks they'll screw you down as far as they can go.

Type ratings run to 'generic' SOPs are about as useful as a chocolate teapot. Type ratings run specifically for the airline are what you want but, you gotta hand it to them, some Low Costs are even getting recruits to pay for the type training they would otherwise have to fund and making a profit on it. Not only that, they don't pay you till line training is complete and sometimes that line training takes a loonnnnggg time.

The MCC course is so short its not ever going to be more than an introduction to two crew operations and it doesn't really matter if the sim is jet or turboprop, I'd still choose a jet, though. Jet Orientation Courses run the risk of starting to teach what should be taught on type conversion. Unless they are carefully controlled by the customer airline they could end up adding to their training costs later on when bad habits have to be 'untaught'.

As to the chances of getting a job, the sad truth is that an awful lot of it comes down to luck. Airlines will pick up the top 30 or 40 CVs on the file, select 20 candidates for interview and employ 5. You have to think, is that Jet Orientation Course that cost me thousands of pounds actually going to make that much difference, or would I be better off buying the 'How to succeeed in aptitude tests' book?

Who do you work for moggie? You keep saying 'us'.

Fogbound

24th Jul 2003, 23:37

Having read a very clear and concise post from PPRuNe Towers above I was disappointed at his blinkered view of Sales & Marketing. Before I continue further I make it known that I am in this field with a FTO.

I started training for my ATPL in 1999. I have been with my present company for 18 months. I deal with a variety of enquiries from all over the world. Everyone is different.

I am obviously employed to bring customers to my company, however I do not wish to be tarred with the same brush that seems that Towers seems to be brandishing.

I may have only had a relatively short time in the Industry but I have seen good, bad and ugly.

I try to give impartial advice taking from my own experience and knowledge of others experiences. The CAA/JAA is a mine field for the un initiated and I try to guide wanabes through the pitfalls along the way (of which there are many). I am still learning myself and I do not profess to know everything (anyone who does you should definitely be dubious about) but I do endeavour to seek the answer from a number of different resources at my disposal.

There are a number of people out there who are only out to take your money, who do not care about the service or product they provide. You should always be wary (with that I agree) however make an informed choice. Always visit more than one school and always look into the variety of options. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone always wants to give you advice. Listen, filter out the good from the bad, and make your own decision. PPRuNe is an excellent resource but the clue is in the name (Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network). People posting as students at FTO's may only have knowledge and experience of that FTO so they cannot make comparisons in training quality only comments on their personal training experience. There are also imposters on here who do not make it clear that they have a financial interest in persuading you one way or another. There are theives, rogues and vagabonds in any industry!

As Towers saidFinally, I've been flying since 1975 and I will tell you this for free. In your journey through flight training you will be very lucky if you even meet 5 people in FTO's with integrity and no other thought than helping you. With a very few honourable and legendary exceptions they will be career flying and ground instructors with no say in sales, marketing, premises or equipment.

You have to choose which bracket the people you meet along the way fall into. But don't judge us all on our job title.

Alex Whittingham

25th Jul 2003, 00:20

I'm going to add some more to this. Those of you who have been in the flight training industry for some time, compare and contrast the old style CAA Frozen ATPL holder straight out of training with his or her JAA counterpart.

We used to train pilots almost exclusively for single pilot piston operations. They knew nothing about Operations Manuals, loadsheets, journey logs SOPs and schedules, the things that dominate your life as a junior FO. They had only flown solo or dual, in each case doing everything in the aircraft from the flying to the RT to the navigation. Teaching them to sit on their hands and distribute work in a two crew environment was often a major headache, 'cause they'd only ever flown single pilot.

Now we teach pilots the rudiments of EFIS and FMS, not enough to get fixated by type, but enough to make it less of a shock. They learn JAR OPS1, which all JAA ops manuals are based on, they learn a little about MNPS operation, a little about HF comms, and a little about real life paperwork. They get an introduction to two pilot operations with the MCC course, once again not enough to do harm but enough to take off the rough edges.

The argument about Jet Orientation Courses seems to be one of where do we stop? The answer at the moment seems to be when you get type or airline specific. Unfortunately its really hard to teach autopilots, EFIS, SOPs and FMS without being type specific.

Another answer might be 'don't stop'. Instead, identify the airline the pilot is going to work for and integrate the airline SOPs and type specific training right down into the ATPL course so that type specific data, when taught, is the right data. Now that's a tricky one, because it means the airlines have to mark the candidates for employment before they're trained.

Even without that, the current system is a whole lot better than the one that we used to have.

Marketing? There are some genuinely helpful marketing people out there, including Fogbound, but most of them are not your mates.

moggie

25th Jul 2003, 06:05

Well said, Alex.

JOC = Jet Orientation Course - usually airline sponsored, trains cadets in the airline specific SOP using paperwork that emulates their sponsor's wherever possible. Where do you stop? When the money runs out because the more that you do at the relatively cheap FTO stage the less you spend on type training.

JIC = Jet Introduction Course - usually self sponsored and therefore working to a typical SOP, using typical paperwork etc. Unless you know which airline the cadet is going to you can only work to a generic SOP - but does this matter? MCC is not about the SOP per se but is about the human factors/CRM skills of working with an SOP. It is about monitoring, cross-checking, situational awareness and prioritisation, not about whether an airline calls "positive climb" or "positive rate".

What a JIC does (and what an MCC plus extra hours can also do to an extent) is expand the candidate's situational awareness, experience and jet handling skills. These ARE things that will be useful for ANY jet sim based selection procedure and also for any jet type-conversion (and also, to a lesser degree) on any turboprop selection/rating.

The training has to be good - concentrating upon the MCC/CRM/airmanship skills of the cadet. If it is to help with the handling elements of a type rating then it must also be done on a good quality training device - and in my opinion that should be a device which is at or near the fidelity of a Full Flight Simulator (rather than some of the less able MCC specific devices out there).

The point I have made a couple of times already is that the GAPAN/EPST survey would appear to suggest that airlines now regard this sort of training as an essential requirement for the candidate. As such, if the survey and GAPAN are to be believed, there is a need for people to provide this training and (unfortunately for them) there is a need for the candidate to dip into his/her pocket even further.

However, maybe the cost isn't that bad - if you combine your JIC with the (JAA required) MCC then you will probably have to shell out for at least an extra 12-16 hours to get some real value out of it. Because of the relative costs of synthetic devices and real aeroplanes this will cost much less than the same number of hours on a Seneca. Speak to the marketing department at the FTO that you are considering and get quotes. Then decide for yourselves!

By the way, Alex, I didn't want to name the organisation that I work for because I did not want to be accused of using this forum to advertise. I have not tried to hide the fact that I work for an FTO or that I truely beileve in the value of what we teach.

By the way, PPRuNe Towers, I find the following comment of your's rather offensive:

Finally, I've been flying since 1975 and I will tell you this for free. In your journey through flight training you will be very lucky if you even meet 5 people in FTO's with integrity and no other thought than helping you. With a very few honourable and legendary exceptions they will be career flying and ground instructors with no say in sales, marketing, premises or equipment.

With a VERY few exceptions the instructors I have met in my time with FTOs have been dedicated people who take a personal pride in the success of their students and share their joy and despair. Most will "go the extra mile" if it is needed - especially if you have a student who is truely willing to put the extra effort in themselves. To suggest that "all but 5 people" per FTO have no integrity and are only after your money just shows how out of touch you must be.

PPRuNe Towers

25th Jul 2003, 07:37

Here's what is offensive moggie,

At last amongst all the pages you've actually provided some content that wasn't pumping up your school in Spain.

Readers go back and review the pearls of wisdom prior to the post above.

'We do this'' 'we do that.'' A non stop roller coaster of pro school spin without a single useable piece of information for those seeking solid information.

Every single post until now was simply promoting your glorious edifice of learning. It was blatant and so obvious it it was the main reason I began my my polemic with:

It's a long time since I've seen so many transparent agendas coupled with so much willy waving in one thread

If I wind you folks up in the schools that's the intent. The forum is for the punters not the schools. Advertising from the schools suppports the site and not the other way round - that's the message we're sending you all because this thread has been a disgrace.

If you want to contribute posts with substantive content such as you finally managed we're very grateful. However, if you want to waste our bandwidth with a barrage of self laudatory spin just sod off elsewhere. I will not repeat myself.

Rob Lloyd

No qualms about praising the intentions within the syllabus Alex but we do still despair as to the point and intent of the questions.

We've all got our favourite questions but mine still remains asking the colour of the light in a sealed class one laser emitting product like a ring laser back in the mid nineties.......

Glad to see you sticking up for yourself Fogbound but as you say it yourself - short time in the industry and you've seen the good, bad and he ugly.

Thing is that those in your position know about the con men and blaggards far sooner than our wannabees. Sadly it is us that stands up for the students and not the FTO industry. Some may remember my words a couple of weeks ago regarding incest being rife. Don't drop the cowboys in the guano because you may have to work for them next year. How else to you explain the outright lies prevalent regarding visa's for training in the states?? The schools in non JAA states claiming otherwise??

A query from a 'mature' starter regarding standard has resulted in a thread perverted by those writing from a number of schools, particulary in those Spain.

It's been slapped down, such promotion will continue to be slapped down.

Rob

Alex Whittingham

25th Jul 2003, 17:30

moggie, you just have been accused of advertising! If you work for an FTO and push their line, no matter how much you believe in it, you should make it clear who you work for. There's nothing in your profile to even suggest you work for an FTO.

We'll do it the MOD way, I'll suggest a name and you confirm or deny.

BAe in Jerez?

Fogbound

25th Jul 2003, 18:01

Glad to see you sticking up for yourself Fogbound but as you say it yourself - short time in the industry and you've seen the good, bad and he ugly. Thing is that those in your position know about the con men and blaggards far sooner than our wannabees. Sadly it is us that stands up for the students and not the FTO industry. Some may remember my words a couple of weeks ago regarding incest being rife. Don't drop the cowboys in the guano because you may have to work for them next year. How else to you explain the outright lies prevalent regarding visa's for training in the states?? The schools in non JAA states claiming otherwise??

As a natural sceptic I read a number of posts on PPRuNe due to which I would agree with your argument against 'hidden agendas' and also your comment about not stirring up too much trouble.

With reference to the above quote from Towers, the reason I am doing my job and the reason I can do my job is that I have been there recently, and I appreciate the decisions that wanabes need to make. I was one of the first few batches to go through the JAA rigmarole and have seen it develop and refine. Aviation is an ever changing industry and the past 18 months have seen major changes. Help and advice from the 'old boys' is usually invaluable but as I and Alex Whittingham have pointed out, a lot has changed in the working and operational environment, thus training has needed to change to meet this.

Those out there about to take a tentative look into training more often than not do not realise the questions which need to be asked. The prime example is in the advertised prices. I can make a full ab-initio course look like it will only cost approximately £24,000, when sensibly the average student will be looking more around the £40,000 mark. For those who have not flown before and are wanting to learn, simple things like approach and landing fees may be over looked. Licence conversion costs if training is viewed cheaper overseas. The words I hate to hear are "i'm looking for the cheapest training" If you fall into this misinformed trap then it may prove more costly in the long run.

Those of us with some knowledge (however long or short the experience) should not be trying to dupe the people who come to us for advice.

Over the months I have spent thousands on advertising for my company here with PPRuNe. This is the way advertising should be done. Rather than ambiguous statements on open forums, wannabes can get your exact information from your company, no misinterpretation etc.

PPRuNe Towers

25th Jul 2003, 20:37

Cracking defence again Fogbound and well done to you. Final paragraph might give you the warm and fuzzies but it doesn't cut it with us.

Training school ads and follow up literature are littered with exaggerations, misinformation, downright lies, oh, and tiny little things like stock photos of new aircraft rather than the real ones on the line. They are not the way to communicate just because you are straight with the wannabees.

Please think this through. We can create e-mail addresses and internet phone numbers at will here in the Towers. We mystery shop to check up on 'ambiguous statements.' We take legal advice. We don't get 'exact' information we get 'misinformation. We may not have headlines comparable to what we did with the Guv but we do have bent purveyors of flight training facing charges.

You have the confidence to stand up for yourself and the way you work - again, that's fine. The point is that at every show or speaking engagement Danny or I attend folks working for FTO's are telling us within 10 minutes about the latest charlatans. Your industry doesn't do anything about it. We can only conclude that is because people in your industry reckon they might end up working for them in the future.

You allow wannabees to find both the sharks and the angels on their own. Even worse you state they should find out entirely by relying on adverts!! This forum is littered with the victims, their shattered dreams and their debts. Every one of them had warm and cozy chats with an agent or marketing person.

So one more chorus:

This forum is for the wannabees - just like you were.

Advertising supports PPRuNe and not the other way round.

Advertisers need us because it's where the vast majority of wannabees go every single day in that fleeting half life that is so utterly vital to FTO's.

We're here for the long haul and we have the memories and details that wannabees lack and suffer through.

We will continue our policies of caveat emptor and never pay up front as we always have done. We will 'out' those pushing their own commercial agendas. As long as your industry protects the inept, the the bent and the downright criminal we'll carry on doing what we do. You'll only get our attention and respect when your industry uses Trading Standards, the ASA, the CAA, Companies House, Customs and Excise and, ultimately, the Police the way we do.

One final word for the FTO's. In case you're feeling like waving your displeasure over our heads, take a close look at the bottom of the page. The ads that have always appeared there are gone and the income from them has as well. We binned the bent gets because they were sending in spyware to probe your computers. You'll find the whole story on our computer forum if you want the details.

The point is this - we kicked them off the site along with the income to protect the computers of our readers who don't pay us a single penny. So don't waste your time by threatening to run away with your advertising ball.

Remember - you need us and the wannabees not the other way round. Yeah, I know it's not like dealing with other publications because we couldn't give a stuff about the money. Get used to it.

Rob Lloyd

Fogbound

25th Jul 2003, 21:12

maybe my last paragraph could have been better worded.

My use of the term 'Misinterpretation' was meant to be directed towards people posing as innocent bystanders rather than as FTO employees. If you are dealing with an FTO website etc then you know who you are dealing with, ie someone with an interest in attracting you to their company. Rather than getting advice which may be biased from someone whos background you are not aware of.

My statement about advertising was meant in a neutral context. No threats or accusations. If anything it was meant to show that by advertising officially it can avoid some of the ugly 'unveilings' of FTO staffs postings with hidden agendas.

I agree with Towers viewpoint and am pleased that they have removed a company who were using their advertising to gain access to users computers.

I hope that the information I provide in any media is correct. I have met Sales and Marketing staff who do not fly and are just doing a job. They may not be aware the information they provide is incorrect. That is not a defence as they should ensure that even mistakingly they are not misleading people who don't know better. Unfortunately the dollar signs appear in their eyes and that side of things takes over.

If you are getting false information from a website or FTO in writing then you have written proof of their misdirection/deception and you would be able to contact trading standards etc (still bearing in mind the unwillingness of people to rock the boat as stated many a time).

I did not intend my comment to be construde that you should rely solely on information from adverts. I always advocate visiting schools and meeting face to face. You can see first hand, not from 'stock photos'. It is also harder for someone to lie when faced directly with a person, rather than a telephone handset or computer monitor.

As a prudent business most FTO's will keep an eye on what the competition are selling and the way they are selling it. Sometimes adverts pop up which as a training provider you know are deliberately misleading. I am aware of some in various forms of media that have been drawn to the attention of the 'powers that be' either officially or unofficially, and the result is usually a removal of the advert.

This is obviously a very heated topic and I do not wish to point fingers or shift blame. The intention of my posts are, as with most are, to give a viewpoint. I do not mean to insight any argument, and appreciate the statements which are being made from a variety of sources.

Maybe I'm in the wrong job, maybe I care too much. I didn't intend to be in Sales & Marketing, I was planning (like many) to have been in an airline job for the last 18 months. As I hope one day to be flying with some of the wannabes who I hear about I would prefer that I was surrounded by well trained pilots rather than people who spent over the odds on mediocre training.

As the song goes 'money makes the world go round' unfortunately reality and the ideal are usually vastly different.

Vettese

26th Jul 2003, 12:07

I am acurrent student at Airmed. HAve experienced all the course more or less, am finishing MCC in 1 week. I would not personally reccomend Airmed. I have found it to be aschool beset with problems and irritating and needless delays. The new management structure is not the best and my opinion is that sometimes problems are not dealt with so well. I am not saying this is a bad school but i believe that there are better. There is a lack of communication (or appears to be from students view point) within the internal structure of the school.

There are some very good members of staff, but also it is worth noting that they take low hour instructors, somethinh UK schools dont usually do I believe. Therer are some excellent instructors however. The MCC course is irrelevant in the wider picture and the type of FNPT2 is unimportant. In fact got a reply from one company inUK that pririty given to MCC applicants but thosewho are good would be accepted withoutit asthey can do it at time of type training.

Dont worry about bells and whistkes talk to present students as those who have left (in case of other 2 respondants quite a while) dont have experience of present situation (in my opinion deteriorating here).

Again I would reccomend a different school, if possible a UK CAA approved one as these seem to be held in high regard by everybody I speak to.

HOW IS IT GOING TINO?

Wee Weasley Welshman

26th Jul 2003, 17:41

Alex - I think you are quite correct in saying the current ground training syllabus under JAA is superior and more relevant than that which we enjoyed under the old CAA system - ahh, how could I get by without understanding DECCA Lane Slip... etc. :E

On the flying side though I think we have gone slightly backwards I am afraid.

Graduates now spend even less time in the air and more time in the Sim. The time they spend in the air is now nearly all dual. They can graduate without ever having flown a twin solo - that usually suprises people. There is now a total lack of 'beacon bashing' or hour building in either the Integrated or Modular route - virtually every hour is a prescribed exercise. I think this makes for a less flavoursome flying course and fewer opportunities to 'learn about flying from that'.

I also think it is undesireable to produce commercial pilots who have never been beyond 45 degrees of bank or 40 degrees of pitch. Similarly I wonder about the wisdom of removing spin training from the syllabus.

---------

Towers has identified a very clear trend in the world of flight training.

The basic flying syllabus to CPL and IR is the bread and butter and stiff competition means nobody makes much money out of it. The jam has become MCC courses and now Jet Intro Courses. As well as various Airline Preparation Paraphenalia.

These are the real money spinners and thats why schools are pushing them so hard.

And don't set GAPAN on some kind of pedestal either. Fine people involved and all that but they have an agenda as well. GAPAN sit between the FTO's and the airlines in many respects. They provide sponsorships to a few Wannabes, they provide kudos to some FTO's and they provide selection testing to some airlines.

Just because their marvelous survey finds that airlines want Wannabes to pay for more training doesn't really mean anything.

Airlines would like Wannabes to pay for type rating and then preferably work for free - one or two are even cheeky enough to attempt this recently.

But when the market picks up as it surely will then you will see all this fall away. Got a CPL? Got a Frzn ATPL? Got a current IR? Can you start next week? Right - thats all you need, now what size hat do you take?

The frills of MCC and certainly JIC are just that. If you have the cash comfortably then by all means spend the money. But don't think you *have* to because GAPAN and a few schools said you needed to.

---------

You'll need cash in reserve to pay for Class one and IR renewals each year. You'll need cash in hand to pay for attending interviews and paying for selection days. You'll need cash in hand for an Instructors rating. Blowing the lot in a tremendous bout of '5h1t or bust' to get that Jet F/O position with Big Airways is probably too risky a strategy.

---------

Oh how we'll all look back and laugh in 5yrs when the airlines can't find enough pilots and they're poaching each others and sending recruiters out to Little Piddlington In The Marsh airfield scouting for talent....

Good luck,

WWW

JohnnyPharm

19th Jan 2004, 20:29

With the current exchange rate WMU seems like a good choice. Course and accomodation is c $85,000 which is approx £46,000.

BAE or FTE as it is known is E92,000 or about £66,000.

Not looking for info on schools but does one have a better reputation than the other or are they both about equal. Is it best to save £20,000 and go to WMU.

Any comments from ex or current students welcome.

WhiskeyNovember

20th Jan 2004, 02:48

I currently attend WMU and haven't flown in over a month thanks to the wonderful lake-effect snow showers.

-WN

no sponsor

20th Jan 2004, 18:05

£46,000 sounds like a bit of a bargain to me. You are into modular cost for that money.

That extra £20K will pay for a instructors rating and a decent salary for 12 months, or even a type rating.

WMU normally go to the Flyer exhibition.

murdock

1st Jun 2004, 15:11

Hey all,

My brother needs to do his JAA PPL(A) pretty fast this summer as its part of his college course. I was wondering, would anyone be able to recommend some schools in England, or possibly if anyone has heard of the school in Spain called Fly-in-Spain, which is being advertised lately. He already has done most of the ground school and just needs to do his flying and exams.
Thanks.

peb

1st Jun 2004, 16:48

If he want to do the PPL exams in Spain you will have to take in account that PPL exams are in Jun, Sep, Nov... ( this year). I never have hear about Fly-in-Spain. Do you know where is it?

:ok:

Flying surfer

1st Jun 2004, 20:27

May be you mean Top-Fly they are based in Salamanca i think?

murdock

1st Jun 2004, 22:30

I think they are a new company http://www.fly-in-spain.com

Just click on English on the right and then on General Aviation, and it goes on about the PPL course there. They seem to be tied in with Jerez and Morroco.

EL SID

2nd Jun 2004, 16:18

Murdock - check your PM's
Regards, ES

Straightandlevel80kt

3rd Jun 2004, 20:48

It would be helpful if you could say where your brother is located.

murdock

4th Jun 2004, 12:39

Location aint too much of an issue as he is willing to travel to where ever.
But if it helps, he lives in Ireland, but goes to colllege in London, so he is over there for most of the year.

madman1145

4th Jun 2004, 15:29

Hi murdock;

When I was flying in Spain, we where tolled that Spanish PPL(A) exams are done in Spanish only, no English ..

If it has to be fast, I know of a Danish guy that have just completed his PPL(A) on Malta in I believe was approx. 2 weeks - do take into account, he is a gliderpilot so he could subtract 10 hours in the PPL(A) training ..
Otherwise, look on the otherside of the Atlantic like Florida, it should be possible to complete a JAA PPL(A) within one month overthere ..

By the way, Top-Fly are located in Sabadell, Barcelona's 2nd. airport for the smaller traffic like VFR and heli's - nice airport ..

--------------------------------------------------------

Addition - just saw your profile murdock, sorry you are in Florida so you allready know it - my bad :ugh: ..

scameron77

10th Aug 2004, 13:46

Ladies and Gents,

I have decided to start this string to get a definitive answer on flight schools. I have recently came into a bit of money that will allow me to do a residential course.

I would readily welcome advice from those who have completed or who are already at an advanced stage in the process. Essentially I'm looking for one obviously has a good atmosphere, patient instructors, good facilities, job prospects, etc.

I'd be interested to find out if places like Jerez who are training the current Britannia pilots are considered a good place to go because of this? Will airlines look favourably or possibly hire people coming through the same system as their own sponsored pilots?

I would however look at distance learning if anyone has any ideas and also maybe look to group together with anyone else in a similar situation to negotiate a better deal with the bargaining power it facilitates.

My background is that I sat RAF aptitude tests 2 years ago and passed for fast jet but failed officer selection. I also applied for Britannia and got to the first round but failed on their aptitude tests wheich were quite different with no reliance on hand-eye co-ordination. I have done a couple of hours so far but thats it.

Essentially I'm in a dilema, I currently live in London and was contemplating London Metropolitan University, its £5,200 rent and living expenses on top of the course fees and I don't know the quality of the course and how it compares.

Another option is my uncle lives in Cairns beside the Airport, rent free and nice weather, and I would be interested if anyone has or knows of the calibre of flight schools out there.

Of course everyone knows about USA for value for money especially in Florida and California but what about Michigan University? Anyone know of good reports of worthwhile schemes. ComAir or whatever its called now? etc.

And finally Spain, with Jerez and some of the others dotted about. What the opinions?

I appreciate any help given as it will hopefully aid my potential career immeasurably. Thanks in advance.

Stephen

stewpot007

10th Aug 2004, 14:25

Hi scameron77,

I am in a similar situation I will have around the £70k mark to play with but after months of research i do not think the full time approach is worth the money and will go the modular route.

Full Time
£60K plus 20% contingency + living expenses = more than my budget + no money for a type rating should it come to that

Modular
Half the cost plus could pay for type rating or use the leverage of paying for one to secure a job should it come to that.

At the moment I am deciding between: -

Naples
Redhill Aviation
Bournmouth - PAT
Bournmouth - BCFT

Of course you can chop and change to lower the cost by combining all the above FTO's in any combination and i am verging on the edge of the following: -

f-ATPL Route

Naples – PPL, Night IMC $8260 (£4,549)
Naples Hour Build – 50 Hours $3200 (£1,762)
Another 50 hours required (UK whilst full time groundschool) £?
ATPL Full Time Ground School – Bournemouth BCFT £4000
CPL £4980 - Bournemouth BCFT
IR £11,725 - Bournemouth BCFT
JOCC £1,995.00 - Bournemouth BCFT
MCC £2,820.00 - Bournemouth BCFT

My final thought and from what i can gather from comments on here from the Pro's is do the training in the UK in an environment where opportunities arise like Bournemouth Airport.

I am interested in what you said about combining spend to negotiate a better deal, you can PM me on that.
I'll be looking to start Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb.

All the best
S:ok:

scameron77

10th Aug 2004, 20:48

Thanks for that buddy,

Certainly food for thought although the London Metropolitan University option is pretty appealing to me in my current situation, but hey, I'm living in Londona and have a lease running.

I would be interested however if there is anyone out there who has already done the leg work and compiled all the necessary homework on some flight schools. Stuff like Pros and Cons, what you've seen or had first hand knowledge of rather than conjecture. Basically I'm looking for an easy option, don't see the point of doing the digging if its already been done and the knowledge is already on here. If people can offer links to other strings on PPRUNE that go onto this sort of thing all the better.

The ones I'm thinking about include:

Stapleford
Cabair
Oxford
University of Michigan
ComAir
Jerez (formerly BAe)
London Met University
Any other not listed but with good credentials

and finally whoever CYC McAlpine use to train their mob (New Zealand I think)

Like to put together a little matrx like they do in Which? magazine, showing each one and what it offers and where it falls down

Post away if you have the knowledge, and lets make this the one-stop shop for anyone in future.

Stephen

Penworth

11th Aug 2004, 07:52

Basically I'm looking for an easy option, don't see the point of doing the digging if its already been done and the knowledge is already on here.

The knowledge is already on here. Try using the search function. It should help answer most of your questions regarding the schools you're interested in.

PW

Bail out

11th Aug 2004, 09:36

Guys,

my advice would be to speak to Liz Mace at EPTA (Cabair) in Bournemouth. Out of my class of 10 all except one guy who is just waiting to start a type rating with BACX have got some kind of aviation work.

Also best allow for a SSTR i'e Gecat, Astraues etc.

All the best with the training - its a good crack

Dan 98

11th Aug 2004, 14:39

Hi Scameron,
I'm in your situation as well, I will have the funds to just do an integrated course early in 2005 and have visited Cabair where they seemed pretty friendly, however they do want your money remember!! I have actually decided since starting my PPL in Norwich, thought I'd make a start to make my mind up, that I'm going the modular route. I agree with the other guy who's responded it's about £20k cheaper and thats with a FI course, so at least you can fly and earn something if it proves hard to find employemt at the end. My PPL Instructor who has just got his IR to do really recommended Bristol GS www.bristol.gs they do a distance learning course for the Ground exams and seem to have a good pass rate. He also did his PPL in the states and didn't recommend it, he needed extra hours when he returned to the UK to get confident, however I face a dilemna myself with winter coming where I could be making little progress if the weathers :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: in the UK, I can see me going to the US to finish it off. I know this isn't much help as I'm in the same boat as you and you want to hear from people who have already done it. For what it's worth I've also heard AFT in Exeter is very good for your IR.
Good luck

Dan

scameron77

11th Aug 2004, 18:30

Thing is I want it done and dusted ASAP. Plus $1.85 to the pound is also a nice little reason. Looked at Western Michigan University, all ex-BA pilots doing the course but its over 4 years form what I could see. Pain in the arse really.

With respect to the earlier email posted on here suggesting that I do a search to find info, thats fair enough, but the whole idea of this string if so it becomes a one-stop-shop for all relevent flight school information for anyone visiting PPRUNE. It goes without saying that I can look for it but rather have real experiences logged on here so this string can grow. If the whole point of this discussion is to tell people to look elsewhere what is the point. Someone has to stop at some point and collate the info and I'm suggesting that with all of your help I'm more than happy to do so.

Stephen

minus273

11th Aug 2004, 18:40

Hey there

You could always look at Moncton Flight College in New Brunswick Canada. Only 5-6 hrs aways from the UK, equally good exchange rate.

You would walk away with both Canadian and JAA qualifications. I believe they use a company in Bournemouth for their JAA IR.

They are nice people, the JAA course was being set up by a guy that used to be at West Michigan, Gus McDonald.

They also have a good system with your money, they operate your account like a bank, so you only need to put the money in as required.

They have been around for about 75 years so must be doing something right.

-273

scameron77

16th Aug 2004, 14:00

Right, where do I start, busy weekend for me, managed to get a back seat ride in a Warrior with another who I got chatting to one here, Cheers Fraser, much obliged. Now convinced me more than ever to pursue with this, warts and all.

I've found out some stuff over the weekend which I feel I should share - maybe preaching to the converted here but I have to take stance that there are people with similar limited knowledge to myself firstly. Choosing a flight school look for hidden extras such as exams, landing fees, etc. they mount up.

Secondly, from that I can gather the FAA seems to be held in low esteem in the UK. Example I was given is that the airspace here is busy and in the states it wide open, therefore US trained JAA PPL graduates returning to the UK are very frightened of control zones around airports, the amount of radio traffic etc. it was alien to them and frightened them a bit. However $1.83 to the pound is still bloody tempting.

Advice was given was to get a deal where you maybe get 5 lessons plus a logbook and other little add-ons for £500 (lots of places offer it) and get a fee in the UK, it will stand you in good stead apparently.

WMU

Some good strings I found

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5804&highlight=wmu

and

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=118401&highlight=wmu

I have just phoned Western Michigan to clear up a lot of conjecture and rumours on here and can pass on the following after speaking to Rob (very abrupt and didn't say goodbye at the end of the call but c'est la vie):

1. WMU will not be running JAA courses from now on, reason I was given was lack of people interested to make it worthwhile.

2. FAA course is still available though and you are looking at paying $43,000 + $13,000 living expenses for the year or so. Approx £30k all in (considering you have to pay food and board anywhere you go thats not too bad - effectively £23k for the FAA full licence).

Australia

Bloody colonials use a different accreditation system too, the Oz APTL means you are restricted to Oz airlines and airlines flying to Oz, severly restricting your options and the cost to convert to JAA is pretty restrictive. Good place to get a PPL possibly but not pursue your training unless weigh up the cons.

craig1975

17th Aug 2004, 12:12

Why are you limiting your choice to the "main stream" schools such as Cabair, OATS etc.

Although I haven't started my training yet there are a number a schools I have visited/spoken to who are very helpful and much smaller, therefore you have 1-1 training, for example Westflight at Gloustershire Airport of Bristol Flight Training Centre.

In my professoinal capacity (I work in finance) and have worked and trained with some very large and also small organisations, the end result is the same, but the smaller organisation will give you a much better training.

Whilst I am not saying that OATS etc do not give good training, they obviously must, but look at other options.

As for training in the states - remember that british airlines have shown a tendancy to prefer british organisations, therefore look at schools that the airlines use themselves such as WM.

Just a thought.

scameron77

17th Aug 2004, 12:38

Well I suppose its becuase they already have everything in place, there is a degree of consistancy and its a recognisable name for the CV.

I was very impressed with the guys at westflight, but I'd like a base, not having to move here and there every so often for the next stage of my modular course is what I'm looking for.

I firmly agree with you about the smaller options but I am looking for, what is for me, the 'safe' option.

WM is also out of the window unless I fancy the FAA course, but it gets a bad rap from what I can see.

Mordacai

17th Aug 2004, 15:53

Hi Guys,

If you were to consider Florida, Its well worth having a look at EFT's APP program. www.flyeft.com

Prices are very attractive, and instuction is superb, I have personally completed CPL, IR, AND FIC courses, all with first time passes, and thoroughly recommend it. As I understand, when you graduate from the APP program, you will be dual JAA, and FAA qualified (including instructor ratings). There are plently of employment opportunities, and with the good weather you can build up a lot of hours quickly.

There is plenty of busy airspace in the area, so no need to worry about being confident about UK airspace when you return.

QUOTE ; As for training in the states - remember that british airlines have shown a tendancy to prefer british organisations, therefore look at schools that the airlines use themselves such as WM. CLOSE QUOTE.

I dont beleive this at all - perhaps you can provide some sort of examples??????? Talk to the numerous EFT graduates who have found employment in the UK in the last 12 months, they dont seem to have had this problem.

M.

P.S. I originally did my PPL with Stapleford, they were OK, but I DID feel like a number in the sausage machine, so I took my business elsewhere.

scameron77

18th Aug 2004, 01:41

Well after that plug for EFT's APP scheme I thought I'd add what else I've learned from scouring the internet for 7 hours today, God I am doing some amount of digging! Benefits with a number of these are in a lot of cases both JAA and FAA qualifications so a few more options open upon completion.

I'd really appreciate if some of the more long-in-the-tooth members of the forum looked at these and came back with what I should look for, i.e. Are the types of aircraft on offer at one school better for learning and future development? EFA seems to conduct most of its training in 172's is this benefical over 152's?Are the time scales shown appropriate and achievable? Basically anthing glaringly wrong to a novice like myslef that takes in marketing spiel.

*************************************************
EFT APP Scheme

http://www.flyeft.com/app/detail_app.html

Cost: $54,995 = £30,000 approx. + all sorts of extras totalling another £2,000 off the top of my head

*************************************************
International Flight Training Academy

http://www.goifta.com/courses.htm click on the King Air button

Cost: Applied on the 17th for a personal quote, will post when I have it.

*************************************************
Delta Academy Internship

http://www.deltaconnectionacademy.com/html/int_students1.html

Cost: I haven't applied for a price, if anyone knows the current cost please share it.

*************************************************
Naples Air Centre Career Pilot

http://naples-air-center.com/career_pilot.htm
http://naples-air-center.com/careerpilotjaafaa.htm

Cost: 52 weeks $46,059 = £25,000 approx.
Start: Jan 2005

Note: I have left out the accommodation as that is the same everywhere more or less and the conversions to GBP is at £1 = $1.85

Also interested in anyone has info on doing a FAA APTL at PAN AM (http://www.panamacademy.com/career.asp) and IFTA in Bakersfield, California (http://www.ifta.aero/training_faa.html)

I would repeat what I said earlier, if there is anyone out there interested in SERIOUSLY looking at attneding one of these schemes in the near future I woudl ask that you get in contact and we look at group negotiation.

Also I would stress that the word 'seriously' used above means NO tyre kickers, unless you are in a position to get the funding available within the time frame, are dedicated to chosing flying as your career and are willing to take the risk of the debt and distance from friends and family please don't get in touch.

Finally, apologies for the spelling, it is almost 3am and bloody Bill Gates and his Microsoft Word spellchecker has ruined me.

Also forgot to add, if anyone who has just finished their PPL or knows of any now redundant Oxford PPL CD-ROM\'s for sale I\'d appreciate it if you sent me an Personal Message and lets do business.

Del Boy

scameron77

20th Aug 2004, 19:47

In addition to my last post, I’ve done a few more searches and found out the following about two of the four schools I considered for a integrated course. As you can see, not really a ringing endorsement for either from what’s been posted on these two threads, which now leaves EFT APP and Naples Career Pilot Scheme for me anyway.

Also still awaiting clarification if learning in a C172 opposed to C152 has any distinct advantages to a learner. Also no news s yet if anyone is selling a complete set of Oxford PPL CD’s.

Also from looking through the posts made on this thread I’ve noticed that I have stuck up about 5 or 6 messages, not really helping the situation much ladies and gents. If you have anything you think relevant to the topic please feel free to add.

IFTA

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134622&highlight=IFTA

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131282&highlight=IFTA

Delta

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140095&highlight=delta

If anyone viewing thread this from either of these two schools wishes to add anything to clear up their position I’m sure every Ppruner would welcome it.

Alex Whittingham

20th Aug 2004, 20:32

Hi Scameron,

You've asked many questions, most of which have been covered before, and to some there are no definitive answers, just opinions. Since you asked, here's my opinion for your situation.

Choice 1: CTC sponsorship. If you haven't applied, apply now.
Choice 2: Integrated or structured modular? Makes no difference, buy on value for money.
Choice 3: On your own or as a group? Forget the group idea, no reputable school will discount, they know their margins and don't have a cash flow problem.

In summary and in order I would suggest:

CTC sponsorship
Jerez integrated
Cabair Cranfield Integrated
design-it-yourself modular with a UK PPL, hours building anywhere, groundschool at one of 5 or 6 reputable schools, skills test and IR the same.

scameron77

21st Aug 2004, 11:37

Thanks Alex,

Very please to receive your reply, as I am seriously considering your groundschool as I've heard many good things about it. I was also glad to see that you didn't try to sell your wares, this would have been very easy to do, and it shows me at least that you run a good reputable school and don't feel the need to get cheap shots over your competitors.

With respect to your post my position is as follows:

CTC - I'm 27 in October, ruling me out of one of the CTC Airlines (Thomson I think), so that limits me somewhat however I have since learned they take 72 bods every year and they have a pretty good reputation.

I'd be interested if anyone out there knows of people of my 'life expereice' who have went and sucessfully passed CTC, or are they after 21/22 year old graduates ready and eager and still impressionable enough to be trained in their way. I know the RAF feel that over 25 its becomes harder.

US - Still got to seriously consider the US for training mainly due to the exchange rate, it makes everything at least £6-7k cheaper than over here, whereas the US was already pretty cheap in comparison.

BAe Jerez - So temping it hurts but its so cost prohibitive and unfortunately out of my range. Don't get me wrong I've love to do it but the 90,000 euro price tag hurts.

Integrated - Toying whither to do this now as moment as I've since ruled out two of the schools in the US due to extensive research on Pprune. Granted you have to take everything on here with a pinch of salt but I'm a firm believer in where there is smoke there is fire.

Looking seriously at doing a structured modular route, for one it save about £10,000 by doing all the admin myself rather than being spoon fed - Thanks Pilot Pete for pointing that one out in a Personal Message!

Doing a lot of reading and seems to me that Angel City Fliers gets a good wrap - http://www.digital-reality.co.uk/acf/ impressed with what I've read so far.

Stephen

Biscuit

27th Aug 2004, 13:32

Now, flybypilot, you wouldn't perhaps work or have a major financial interest in EPTA perhaps?

B

scameron77

27th Aug 2004, 15:26

It would appear that way wouldn't it? :cool: that message was almost too slick, looks like the work of a marketing professional, apologies if that isn't the case.

Still looking for answers for a couple of the following questions:

The type of aircraft you learn to do your PPL in, does learning in a Cessna 172 preferential to a 152 or is it all the same ball game, advantages, disadvantages if any?

Also, if anyone who has just finished their PPL or knows of any now redundant Oxford PPL CD-ROM's for sale I'd appreciate it if you sent me an Personal Message and lets do business.

Stephen

Blinkz

27th Aug 2004, 15:39

I too am starting the process of looking at schools and deciding on a route. I think I'm edging towards a structured full-time modular route. I just don't see how to justify the extra money that an integrated course costs.

I haven't really done a huge amount of research yet so it is early days yet, but one plan I am looking at is as follows:

PPL at Edinburgh Flying Club - not the cheapest but great experience flying from a busy international airport.
Hour build in the UK/US - not sure where or how to do this, perhaps doing a night + imc rating at the same time?
ATPL theory at Bristol GS - everyone says that they are great and from what I seen of them they look a good choice.
CPL + IR at Blackbushe airport with cabair. Its very close to my parents house so free lodgings, also I've heard the school is pretty good.

Anyone have any better ideas? :D Any advice welcome.

silverknapper

27th Aug 2004, 16:48

Blinkz

You certainly seem to have a good game plan, only one thing I would perhaps change:
PPL at Edinburgh Flying Club - not the cheapest but great experience flying from a busy international airport.
At the PPL stage I would argue that you won't gain anything from flying out of a busy international airport but would lose a lot. Landings are expensive at BAA airports (and you'll use a lot when in the circuit) and you'll spend a long time burning cash at the hold or in an orbit letting all the big traffic in.
There is plenty of time to mix it with the big boys and exposure to this in your hour building would be good.
So where for a PPL? Personally I recommend Highland flying school at Inverness or Tayside at Perth or IMHO the best - Far North in Wick. Either way only go somewhere which has a landing card, isn't in class D airspace and isn't too busy.

Cheers

SK

J1mbo

27th Aug 2004, 19:13

Just a quick one... i've come down to the choice of either Naples or EFT, fort pierce. In my eyes an easy decision, at EFT you have to do the ATPL exams with distance learning from Bristol GS. Seems a bit silly moving to the states, spend a month or so getting your PPL then spend 6 months locked in your room studying stuff sent from the UK where you've just left! Also, Naples is cheaper and sounds like a nicer place to be.

J.

scameron77

28th Aug 2004, 11:00

I've now looked more into Flybypilot's profile and see he is a flight instructor on the South Coast. Essentially, thanks for adding to the thread but it was started a reference tool for people starting out, not for training instructors who are bored because the adverse weather conditions have grounded them to advertise thier school.

You all may interested in this comprehensive list I found form the JAA website.

http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/fto.html

Funny how both myself and Jimbo have both shortlisted Naples and EFT isn't it. Still think Angle City Flyers are worth a look however, California isn't hampered with hurricances and other low-brow weather and fat Americans holidaying there.

Robthestudent

31st Aug 2004, 19:06

As everyone has guessed FlybyPilot must be someone working for EPTA, however two points I would make in relation to their contribution, Andy Hogg may no longer be CFI at EPTA but he is without doubt one of the most professional and knowledgeable instructors around and if FlyByPilot is the work of Liz Mace then she still has not come to terms with the concept of spellchecker.

:)

Rob

scientifics

1st Sep 2004, 14:16

What about Delta Academy, I have looked into them greatly. I have also visited the school and the facilities seem second to none. Brand new aircraft, halls style housing, shop, sims etc. They even have a study area where you can turn up and speak to an instructor if you need help. The last price I got was around $49,000 for the internship programme. Some of the training is conducted in the UK and Sanford is a major charter airport.

I am also looking at EFT and they look really professional. Is the EFT training highly regarded?. Also, Oxford do a training link up with a flying school in Pafos, Cyprus. If you do a google search you will be able to find it. The price is around £30,000.

Air Born

1st Sep 2004, 22:10

Haven't yet seen Bonus Aviation at Cranfield mentioned here yet - they have a pretty good CPL/IR/MEP package deal going, when you get to that stage.

scameron77

2nd Sep 2004, 11:40

Can anyone give any advice about ComAir? I had quite a look through the archives and found that there were more pros than cons but to be fair if you have a bad experience you'll tell 20 people, if you have a good one you'll tell 1 other person, maybe thats the script there.

But whatever it seems that ComAir is set up for FAA primarilly and JAA as an after thought, maybe I'm being harsh here but thats certainly what I can find form on here

Also I've asked a question about learning on certina types of aircraft, is there a benefit to learning in a C172 or a Warrior over a C152 for example?

Long Beach CFII

14th Sep 2004, 18:20

I'm an Independant FAA instructor in Long Beach, CA. I have previously recommended Angel City Flyers, due to the drive, dedication and enthusiasm of the Owner - giving the students the previously mentioned advantages of going small and intimate, over big and somewhat anonymous. I have also been previously invited to work with them on two occasions.

That said, I would like to address your question of Cessna 172 vs Cessna 152, from the US perspective.

The advantages a Cessna 152 have over a Cessna 172 are: cost and simplicity. From $60 -$72. It is a great airplane to learn initially, however is limited by useful load, and range. I personally wouldn't recommend it after Private Pilot.

The major disadvantage of a Cessna 152, is that all of them will be at least 23 years old, have unreliable avionics, most will have a prolonged flight training history, and the mechanics are probably playing catch-up to any number of minor squawks

Like the Cessna 152, the advantages of the 172 are easy to fly, (but hard to fly well) It too is forgiving. My opinion of the older models of 172 is similar to that of the 152s, except now you can take 2 possibly 3 people with you and perhaps go an extra 150 miles. The cost of older 172s are not far off from 152. Anywhere from an extra $8 to $15. For training I see no benefit over a Cessna 152, unless you have been paired with another student that can observe from the backseat, or it has been fitted with newer avionics.

1998 and newer Cessna 172 will be either an R model or an S model. These are fuel injected, excellently equipped, and great for Instrument Ratings, and Professional Pilot Training. More often than not they will have very reliable radios, autopilot, IFR GPS, some even with a Multi Function Display (2003+) These animals run between $90 - $115 per hour depending where you find them. Some Flight Schools will use a simulator to offset the additional cost of the newer 172s.

With my experience as an instructor, I have found the student that spends a little extra on the nicer equipment will be more focused, with less distractions and stress added to the flight lesson, and will remember a lot more respectively, cutting down the time required.

Almost goes without saying, but the choice of airplane becomes irrelevent if you don't fly with a knowledgable, motivated and experienced instructor, thats makes the best use out of the time in the airplane etc.

Hope this is fair and helpful

PJ

747 Truth

15th Sep 2004, 05:44

Hi there scameron77. I am in the same situation you are. I spent 4 agonising years working in the investment industry (as a trader) to earn the money I needed to fly. I finally have it. So recently I did exactly what you did and researched into various flight schools, I went to the flyer show at LHR talked to BA, Virgin, Easy Jet Captains, also went round the UK visiting different FTO’s. Also went to Spain and delta connection in Florida. Also talked to some of my friends who are flyboys in various airlines around the world.

Here’s my opinion. (Please note there are people who are going to disagree).

I decided that the integrated route was best for me and that Jerez or OAT. And I finally think I have decided to go to Jerez. I agree with the opinion that there is no difference in modular or Integrated but there is a huge impact on your future earnings. I disagree with the comment made on some of the threads that we fly jets for the shear love of it. That’s loser talk. I want to do it for the love of it and for the money. I know pilots that started flying at 27 and are now 40 and are millionaires (I am in my early twenties).

If you want to earn the big bucks and for the love of it you got to have a good base. A good base unfortunately includes an integrated approach because the big bucks are made working for the big airlines (BA, Virgin etc). And these airlines either require you to have trained in an integrated environment for a new pilot.

If you want to do it for the love go and do the modular approach and fly 737’s for the rest of your life earning pittance….

The above opinions are given by experienced training captains and current line pilots for BA, Virgin, Cathay, UA and AA pilots who I know.

Its there opinion and mine:

If you want to go to the US go to Delta connection or EFT.

In the UK go to OAT, Jerez.

P.S Please note this post is not meant to offend anyone and my opinions are my own…
:ok:

Captain Ratpup

15th Sep 2004, 07:52

747 truth,

You mention Oxford and Jerez for integrated training. No mention of Cabair.

I'm thinking of them so was wondering if you had any experiences with them I should know about before I sign the dotted line.

Ratpup

747 Truth

15th Sep 2004, 08:33

Hey Captain Ratpup,

I had a friend who did a PPL (and so forth) and subsequently at Cabair. I have just asked him about his opinions.

Quote " Very professional outfit with experienced instructors"

He is know flying Airbus's for Emirates!.......

Penworth

15th Sep 2004, 08:46

Please note there are people who are going to disagree

I'm afraid I'm one of those people 747truth! How can you say people who just want to fly aircraft for the love of it are losers? Fair enough, you're a mercenary and want to earn big bucks, but I find your comments hugely derogatory to the thousands of people who find pleasure from flying a multitude of light aircraft. Ok, they may not be millionaires, but to a lot of people having an enjoyable life outside of work is more important than being wealthy.

And these airlines either require you to have trained in an integrated environment for a new pilot

Correct me if I'm wrong but other than a few fortunate individuals who've played the nepotism card, I wasn't aware of BA or VS taking on recently graduated fATPL's, integrated or modular.

If you want to do it for the love go and do the modular approach and fly 737’s for the rest of your life earning pittance….

I'm flabbergasted, I really don't know what to say. Do BA not use 737's? Do 737 captains on the loco's earn a pittance? Presumably you'll be going straight onto a BA 747 when you leave Jerez with 250 hours? :rolleyes:

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with choosing Integrated if that's what you want to do, I just can't believe how many misconceptions you seem desperate to perpetuate. Apologies scameron77 for taking the thread slightly off course.

PW

747 Truth

15th Sep 2004, 08:58

I told you that its my opinion and no they are not misconceptions.....

Let me guess your either taking the modular route or you are a pilot getting payed pittance....whatever buddy.....

I'm flabbergasted, I really don't know what to say

Say nothing becasue you know i am right..

BA 747 when you leave Jerez with 250 hours?

Dam straight i will be playing the nepetism card...i have people using nepetism to get over me.. i have stopped caring...use and abuse i say...Its not what you know its who you know....

I just can't believe how many misconceptions you seem desperate to perpetuate

Only the truth buddy.... if you cant hack it leave the flying and earning business to us!

Ok, they may not be millionaires, but to a lot of people having an enjoyable life outside of work is more important than being wealthy

More enjoyable than being wealty?...enjoyment comes from being wealthy!.... you must live on another plant...

but I find your comments hugely derogatory to the thousands of people who find pleasure from flying

This was not my intention..if you disagree that s fine with me i did not mean for them to be derogatory and if you took it that way then i am sorry and sory to all those thousands of people but the bottom line is if you fly professonally why not fly and be rich?

:ok:

Biscuit

15th Sep 2004, 09:34

747 Truth,

Get rich being a pilot? I don't think so in any way, shape or form. It will not happen. Of all the major professions piloting must be the worst paid BY FAR relative to the amount of effort and responsibility involved. Sad truth is that all pilots no matter what level they are at, even if they have not aquired training debts will only ever achive a fairly low salary. Bear in mind that once property prices are factored into a pilots income, especially in the South East, 40/50k (which is the most you'll ever get realistically) is a low salary.

B

747 Truth

15th Sep 2004, 11:02

Biscuit,

I respect your opinion and I thank you for it. I don’t agree with your opinion but I respect it.

Please keep thinking the way you do because I know you will never ever be a competitor for the jobs I am going for and will get. I know pilots that earn double what you stated (in some cases triple) all because of sacrifice, dedication and hardwork (so what if it costs a marriage or some other material thing).

T

:ok:

cumulus

15th Sep 2004, 17:58

Oh my God, we have a time-traveller from the eighties!!:D

Though I hesitate to offer advice to one who is so clearly a Master of the Universe, 747 truth, may I respectfully suggest that you dispense with the shoulder-pads during training? it can be very cramped in a light aircraft.:rolleyes:

PS
Just to show there are no hard feelings.....

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Reviews/TS_QCTP/boring.jpg

A present for you. Like yourself, it is a Boring Tool :E

PPS
In the unlikely event that a Celestial Being such as thou ever has to lower yourself to writing a CV, (like the rest of us worms), don't forget to use Spoll Chocker.:rolleyes:

Angel´s One Fife

15th Sep 2004, 20:17

747 Truth

Are you Ranchonner? Spelling is still bad I see.

ChocksAwayUK

16th Sep 2004, 08:42

40/50k (which is the most you'll ever get realistically) is a low salary.

:uhoh:

Is that really the case? That's come as a bit of a shock to me. Why are published salaries for SFOs and Captains so much higher? I know it's not all about the money but i do have plans for the future!

Mooneyboy

16th Sep 2004, 11:09

50k is not a low salary even in London. My sister is earning about 19K in advertising and the most she could ever earn is about 30K. She also puts in very long hours working every day of the week.

I would suggest if you want to get more for your money in terms of property move up to Shropshire where 50K would be deemed as been pretty well off.

Mooneyboy:p

scameron77

16th Sep 2004, 15:24

Folks,

Let please remember why I started this thread up, its not a 'have a go if you think you are hard enough' sort of an affair.

If someone posts something that you feel outrageous or plainly wrong, post a mail back pointing that out and leave things there, lets rise about petty one-upmanship and keep everything else like personal remarks and stuff to Private Messages please.

Lets get this thread back on topic which is JAA compliant flight schools and their merits, faults and pitfalls.

Right, rant over, anyone selling a full set of Oxford CD's

Stephen

Alex Whittingham

16th Sep 2004, 22:45

If I can drag you back to the original thread, what you might consider is that inside the industry we know the good schools and we know the wrong 'uns. Mostly we get on, but some schools don't get on with anyone. We won't say it clear, we can't, but there are certain schools that are never recommended by other FTOs, ever. What is not said is often much more significant than what is said. You would do yourself a favour if you were to start reading between the lines.

Mark_ms

4th Feb 2005, 13:01

Hi

Could anybody help me with looking for JAR complaint schools to do modular CPL and IR training at.

Would really appreciate personnal recomendations, right down to plain old web addresses.

Thanks.

me_chambers

12th Feb 2005, 15:28

Ok im starting out new and am looking to get a ppl and a frozen atpl

could you please rank the below schools

oxford, bristol, cab air, ba systems.

If there are any others you can think of that are highly recommended let me know. I am basically wanting to know what you think the best school to go to wheather it be uk/usa or wherever.

Also does anyone know of any upcoming seminars events that i could attend that would provide me with further information on the above schools or any other schools they would recommend

me_chambers

12th Feb 2005, 17:54

Ok ive decided i am going to do my ppl in the usa

Which schools does anyone recommend and why?

Whats the school in arizona thats linked to oxford like.

Any advice on schools in the usa or spain i hear has good schools would be most appreciated

Vee One...Rotate

12th Feb 2005, 22:30

I think the Flyer Show is is happening some time this year. I went to the 2004 one down in Heathrow and can highly recommend it. All the big names, and some less- well-known ones are there as well as a number of presenations and Q+A sessions.

Nice day out.

See www.flyer.co.uk

V1R :ok:

Timeout

13th Feb 2005, 02:28

What about CTC?

Are you aware of the cadet scheme?

www.ctcaviation.com/wings

Timeout

Solid Rust Twotter

13th Feb 2005, 08:17

If you specify the licence type (JAA/FAA/various ICAO/CAA types) and where you intend operating it may narrow the field down a bit...

me_chambers

13th Feb 2005, 09:07

initially ppl then full atpl frozen

probably going to do my ppl in states can you recommend any particular schools

CAT3C AUTOLAND

13th Feb 2005, 10:14

MC,

This subject has been done to death on PPRUNE mate, therefore it may be worth doing a search. You will find lots of comments about all the different schools.

Jodiekeyz

13th Feb 2005, 11:08

If you are planning on doing a integrated course then:

1) Jerez (former bae systems)
2) Oxford
3) Cab-Air

Modular mmm have heard good things about BGS for ground school and eft for flight training!

I persoanally went the integrated route at Jerez a long time ago.

:E

SAMIR786

13th Feb 2005, 11:32

After much research, I have decided to do my PPL + Night Rating at EFT, Florida.

They seem to have about 98% positive feedback.

Check them out!

flaps now

13th Feb 2005, 12:00

Naples for me!!:ok:

lamma

17th Feb 2005, 11:10

Just been to OFT in Orlando hour building and just wanted to say how impressed I was. They are run by Cabair and I was impressed enough to think about doing my JAA CPL there.

Fellow Aviator

9th Mar 2005, 11:49

After reading the Aerofan topic, I thought it might be helpful, if we gathered up a link collection of flight schools in Spain. I'm looking forward to possible flight instructor training in spain. It would be a big time saver, if everyone that knew a FTO, posted a link in this thread.

Cheers,
FA

Aero Madrid (http://www.aeromadrid.com)

cclayton

10th Mar 2005, 18:14

I have recently moved to Malaga and have been looking for a flight school - heres Malaga's....

www.aero-club.org

Not sure on the prices yet... is it expensive here?

Thanks,

Chris

kipo

11th Mar 2005, 17:47

hello
Do you know school ATPL and IR in English language
at Malaga
Thank you *

stratotanker135

12th Mar 2005, 09:27

Aerodynamics-malaga.com are the best School in Malaga which also runs a charter company.

heathrow hawk

18th Mar 2005, 18:24

These guys were excellent perfect english and friendly instructors made it a pleasure. Don't quote me on this but I think the pass rate is in the 80%-90% due to all the training being done in the aircraft 65hrs of it. I'm currently at BCT finishing the CPL on the combined course.

judewatt

18th Mar 2005, 19:52

I completed integrated ATPL at Aeromadrid. Found it mostly professional. But definitely good outcome, first time passes in everything I did, fantastic instructor, and also a lot cheaper than all the schools in England, with the opportunity to learn spanish. Get a person who looks after you, which makes sure if any problems occur you have one point of contact.

Now considering going back to train as instructor, just trying to save some cash!!!!

Good luck with your decision
Jude

Big Piston head

21st Mar 2005, 08:21

Heathrow hawk
some questions about Malaga
I have looked at the websites www.surinenglish.com and www.andalucia.com www.malagaweb.com and have found some accom. for £300 a month is that about right? Aerodynamics have sorted me a car out for £250 (380 euros) for a month. Where is the best place to rent access to Airport R&R etc?

Big Piston head

22nd Mar 2005, 13:28

H.H still waiting for your info currently looking at Benamadena its on the train line straight to the airport is that close to G.A or better by car?

heathrow hawk

22nd Mar 2005, 16:03

Try these also www.spainatheart.co.uk
www.andalucia-villas.co.uk
You can walk from the station to GA in about 10 mins. Look up (Trains) www.renife.es. Benamadena o.ks. I went skiing in Sierra Nevada 1.5 hrs away Granada ask Carlos in the office hes a Ski Instructor. He'll get you a pass for £20, equipments another £10. If you like Golf, whore bars ANY THING YOU WANT. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY GET YOUR FIRST TIME PASS!!

lloverseed

24th Mar 2005, 16:21

Hi Folkes, Just hoping someone could throw some advice my way!

Where to for the cheapest MEIR?

Would your recommend FAA to JAA conversion route?

Has anyone any experience of AEROFAN?

Thankyou very much for any words of wisdom!

Lee.

vee-en-ee

24th Mar 2005, 22:21

Hi, did mine at Flightpass in UK and got a first time pass. They are small but excellent training with some ex- Cathay trainers at a reasonable price. Cheapest? Dunno, but I'm happy.

Look around I suggest to see what suits you.

heathrow hawk

25th Mar 2005, 08:01

Hi Mate,
I know about 5 guys who converted there faa/icao licences at aerodynamics most did 15 hrs- 20 and it worked out about 5000-6000 euros in a BE 76 including test fees. CAA u.k issues the IR as its just a rating. Remember Aerofan have to fly 50 nm away to start IR training, Malaga is full IFR dep. arrival each flight so you get twice as much practice. Good Luck email [email protected] and some one will help you. Must be getting cold down under! I flew up in Innesfail near Cairns with old Bob Harris. Its £85 rtn from heathrow to Malaga. BA book on www.Opodo.co.uk
hope this helps

Big Piston head

1st Apr 2005, 14:13

Yup I've arrived here in Spain, lovely a few beers on the front tonight and I'll keep you informed of the IR ME aerodynamics course. 3 hrs booked in monday I also met Orvil and yes he can fly. under the glideslope, over the NDB, into the Dme arc, below minimums!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Emerald flyer

1st Apr 2005, 23:43

Hi all,

as the holder of a UK PPL(and ATPL exams) like many of you, I have been examining for many months now the possibility of doing a UK CPL in Madrid.

The CAA inform me that they would only accept such an arrangement on the provision that written permission is obtained from the DGAC (Spanish CAA) in which they state that they would have no objections to this.
The DGAC, however, will not (as I understand) provide such a letter of approval so its a classic 'Catch 22' situation.

I heard rumour that there may soon be an annex amended to the JAR's which would provide for CPL training to be conducted in ANY JAA state regardless of the students original state of license issue (in much the same way as ratings can at present be obtained).
This then would presumedely allow the DGAC to approve UK students training in Spain for UK CPL's.

My question is simply : Does anybody know anything of such legislation?
Also, what do people think of simply doing a Spanish CPL?

many thanks,

Emerald flyer.;)

The Windsock

4th Apr 2005, 07:47

There must be some form of legislation in place to approve the course as Jerez offers this service. There are UK CAA examiners for the IRT and for the modular CPL guys. Perhaps it is just that Madrid doesn't want to put the work in?

chipieflyer

20th Aug 2005, 09:13

Does it really matter to potential employers whether your training was completed in the UK or another JAA state? I've heard so many conflicting theories on this that I'm not sure what to believe anymore. Surely a JAA Licence is a JAA Licence...

I've just got through the last of my ATPL exams and now want to complete the last part of the flight training as soon as possible. However it won't be long before the glorious English summer ends so going down to Spain is a very tempting option.

GRANTS

20th Aug 2005, 17:43

I have been in your position and I got the impression that the British airlines do prefer Uk license.
you can do your training at FTE Jerez and get it.

Good luck.

ROI1900D

15th Nov 2005, 18:47

Can anyone recommend a goof FTO in Spain. I want to convert from CPL ICAO to ATPL(f) JAR.
Thanks.

ramshorn

16th Nov 2005, 12:49

Hi!
Try doing a search on an FTO called 'Aerodynamics'. I think they're based in Malaga.I've heard they're pretty good and quite reasonably priced.

jerezflyer

16th Nov 2005, 13:52

I have visited Aerodynamics in Malaga, and I must say they look pretty good. They also have an English instructor.

Other FTOs in Spain with some reputation are:

Aerotec
Aeromadrid
Aerofan
Flight Training Europe
Aerolink
Panamedia

and others........

Hope this helps.

jerezflyer

16th Nov 2005, 13:58

Consider this scenario:

a) Study the ATPL theory distance learning (or CPL) in the UK because it is well organised and very good.

b) Do the CPL flight training, along with IR, FI etc. in Spain because the weather is better and it is much cheaper.

Is this possible under JAA????

Thanks in advance for any responses.

ROI1900D

16th Nov 2005, 14:13

Thanks for your reply.
What about American Flyers or Aerotec Tenerife?
I went to Aerodynamics in Malaga, but they seem a bit expensive.
Thanks for your help

too_sleepy

16th Nov 2005, 14:56

Hi jerezflyer

If you train with your name sake in Jerez it's no problem. They're basically a UK FTO in Spain. This wouldn't save you much money though.

Another option is to do the ATPL exams in the UK and get written permission from the UK CAA to complete your training in another JAA state. The chances of this happening are sooo slim it's hard to imagine.

Option 3 is to do the ATPL exams in the UK and do the CPL in the UK. The expensive IR can be done in any JAA state.

Option 4 is to do the ATPL exams in the UK and do the CPL in a UK CAA FTO abroad, say Florida, and then the IR in Spain ir the UK. You can't do the IR outside of Europe.

Hope this helps. I'm still running around like a headless chicken trying to decide.

smith

16th Nov 2005, 15:14

I don't see any problem in doing ATPL in UK and CPL IR in Spain at the likes of Aerofan, Aeromadrid etc, as long as all the schools are JAA approved everything should be OK.

Bertie Bassett

16th Nov 2005, 15:42

smith,

Not so. The CAA will not accept a CPL skill test from a Spanish JAA Approved FTO. The bit in italics below is the response I received from the CAA Policy section about such a situation. I did the UK ATPL exams and am doing the IR at a JAA (not CAA) Spanish Approved Flight School. The CPL course I'm looking at doing in the UK.

JAR-FCL 1.065(a)/2.063(a) states that applicants for a licence shall demonstrate the completion of all requirements for licence issue to the Authority of the State of Licence issue. There is also provision in 1.065(b)/2.065(b) to allow applicants who have commenced training under the responsibility of one Authority may be permitted to complete the requirements under the responsibility of the other Authority, and that the Authorities shall agree the 'State of Licence issue'.

However, dependant on the law in the other member state will determine as to whether or not another State will accept this provision or not. Some other JAA States may insist that if an applicant has commenced training in that State, they must continue training and complete all requirements in that same State. Other states law prohibits the acceptance of our UK JAR exams etc..

>From the UK CAA's point of view our policy at present is as follows:-

Where an applicant has passed the JAR-FCL Theoretical Knowledge Examinations in the UK and wish to complete flying training at a JAA Approved FTO in another JAA Member State, we would have no objection with this. However, our policy is that we would expect the State in which you complete your flying training (Spain in this case) to be the State of licence issue. We would not be willing to allow you to complete flying training in Spain with the intention of being issued with a UK JAR-FCL CPL(A).

But, as mentioned above there needs to be an agreement to this effect between both JAA Member States, therefore whilst we have no objection you will need to confirm with the Spanish CAA that they will accept a pass in the UK JAR-FCL ATPL(A) exams (once completed) towards the issue of a Spanish JAR-FCL licence. Also confirm with them that they are happy to be the State of Licence issue and agreeable with your proposal. I would suggest that you get written confirmation from them to that effect.

Of course if a Spanish JAR-FCL licence is issued, you may at a later date apply for a Change of State of licence issue to the UK subject to the normal residency or occupational ties as stated in JAR-FCL 1.070.

The above is on the assumption that you wish to complete flying training at a Spanish JAA Approved FTO and not a UK JAA Approved FTO in Spain (i.e Flight Training Europe SL in Jerez who are approved by the UK CAA). If it is the case that you wish to complete a CPL modular course of flying training at Flight Training Europe, as they are approved by us then we would have no objection and you would upon completion be issued with a UK JAR-CPL(A).

You can do a rating at any JAA Approved FTO, so the IR would not be problem. The CPL skill test is not for a rating.

Hope this helps anyone else contemplating where to do the CPL/IR modules.

[edit for formatting]

jerezflyer

16th Nov 2005, 18:40

Thanks for the replies. At last - a clear answer to this questiion!!!

I respond as follows:

too_sleepy - Option 3 sounds like the way to go. You are very correct - flight training europe in Jerez, although the perfect option (they do a nice CPL/ME/IR combined course for continuity) but the price tag is in excess of 27,000 euros.

Bertie Bassett - very infortmative - thanks alot!! This is exactly what I thought. Question for you - if you did the ATPL exams in UK, how did a Spanish FTO accept your UK exam passes as exemption from IR theory (before doing the CPL)?

The only way I could see doing this would be to do a CAA/JAA CPL and then adding the Spanish IR rating to the licence.

However, someone in the Spanish CAA (DGAC) told me that they could not add any ratings (IR, FI) to a JAA licence issued outside Spain, and that you would have to do the change over - this does not make any sense - have you had experience of this???

Thanks again.

jerezflyer

redout

16th Nov 2005, 18:52

You basically HAVE TO do your 14 ATPL exams under the same authority as your CPL.

Bertie Bassett

16th Nov 2005, 19:39

jerezflyer

Question for you - if you did the ATPL exams in UK, how did a Spanish FTO accept your UK exam passes as exemption from IR theory (before doing the CPL)?

The Spanish FTO just took a photocopy of my UK ATPL results for their records. They were not particularly interested in which JAA State the exams had been sat, only that I had passed either the JAA IR or JAA ATPL exams. The FTO does not need to know which JAA State will finally issue the IR rating.

The only way I could see doing this would be to do a CAA/JAA CPL and then adding the Spanish IR rating to the licence.

Yes, if you have sat the UK JAA ATPL exams then you could either add the JAA IR (done in Spain) to your CAA/UK JAA CPL or to your CAA/UK JAA PPL.

However, someone in the Spanish CAA (DGAC) told me that they could not add any ratings (IR, FI) to a JAA licence issued outside Spain, and that you would have to do the change over - this does not make any sense - have you had experience of this???

This comes down to the State of Licence Issue thing again. I have a UK issued PPL so only the UK CAA can add ratings to it, even if these ratings have been done in other JAA countries. The Spanish DGAC could not add a JAA IR done in Spain on to a UK PPL/CPL.

As redout mentions above "You basically HAVE TO do your 14 ATPL exams under the same authority as your CPL." In addition, only the same authority as your CPL can add ratings to your licence (even if done in other JAA countries).

Clear as mud?

hughesyd

16th Nov 2005, 21:23

give aeromadid a call. that is whee i am doing my ATPLs at the moment. Do all your training here in spain , then just get your licence reissued to a UK licence. and save a packet in the proccess!!

hughesyd

16th Nov 2005, 21:28

i am at Aeromadrid at the moment, arrguably the best flight school in spain, its very good. i have also done some hours at Aerofan, now this place is mega cheap!!! have a look at aerofanfto.com

Rfortes

1st Dec 2005, 12:45

Do you speak spanish?
check this site:

http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/DIRECCIONES_GENERALES/AVIACION_CIVIL/PERSONAL_VUELO/ENSENANZAS/default2.htm

it's from spanish caa.

Good luck,
Ricardo

ramshorn

5th Jan 2006, 09:11

Hi
I,ve just read the replies from Turkish 777's thread on doing his FAA IR conversion in the uk and the general consensus seems to be for him not to do it in the uk and take advantage of the cheaper prices in spain.
My situation is that this has now confused me as what to do with my FAA IR conversion and i am supposed to be starting it on Feb 6th and paying my school in the UK a deposit for the course by the end of this week.Due to this i would greatly appreciate more of your opinions on my options.This is my position:
My aim is to get a job based in the UK flying corporate/airlines
Have quite recently done my JAR CPL in Florida
Did my FAA PPL/ IR in California about 5 years ago(so quite rusty,apart from CPL syllabus)
My only flying in the UK has been about 5 hours pottering about in a pa 28.
I think that i will probably need to do an FI on completion of IR for hour building so could obviously gain a fair amount of experience of flying in the UK instructing.
I would appreciate your views on what i should do.Either pack my bags and head south or stick with Bristol flying centre and pay the higher prices and gain the experience of flying in UK airspace??
:confused: ;) ;) :uhoh:

hixton

5th Jan 2006, 16:17

scew the uk I say, dont pay the CAA any more money for their pension funds!
I cant see why an employer would see it as any different as long as its a JAR rating, thats the whole point of being a european isnt it?

Jelly Doughnut

6th Jan 2006, 07:49

There used to be a rule saying that all your training has to be completed in the same JAA country.. is this still the case?

gilbertcm

9th Feb 2006, 07:21

Hi, I am looking for a partner for an MCC course in Jerez, starting on the 27th Feb.
The cost is inclusive of accomodation and food and the flights direct from stanstead start from £12.
I am currently booked on the course but cannot attend unless a partner is found.
I also am interested if anyone has any comments on the MCC in Jerez?
It works out cheaper than the majority of full motion courses in the UK as it includes full board. It also is in southern spain so after 18 months of hard work, it would be a bit of a holiday (beer 65 pence a pint!!!)
anyone interested please email me or reply on here.
[email protected]
for more infomation go to http://www.flighttrainingeurope.com/
many thanks
Chris

JeroenC

15th Feb 2006, 14:32

To make things more complex i have receivedthe following e-mail in answer to my questions:

Dear Mr xxx

Thank you for your e-mail dated 2nd March 2004.

As you are currently the holder of a UK JAR-FCL PPL(A), the UK is the State
of Licence issue. You state in your e-mail that it is your intention to
train towards a professional licence in other JAA States. Firstly, you need
to establish who will be the State of Licence issue, the UK or another JAA
State such as Spain or the Netherlands where you may well undertake your
training.
JAR-FCL 1.065 as detailed in LASORS mentions that training and testing
completed in other JAA Member States may be allowable subject to a prior
agreement between the Authorities of the JAA Member States concerned.
However, some JAA States are still insisting that all requirements are met
in one State.

If the UK is going to be the State of Licence issue then we will generally
accept training and testing completed in other full JAA Member States
providing there is an agreement and that we are satisfied that ALL training
and testing is in accordance with JAR-FCL.
We have received other enquiries on this subject but mainly from individuals
who wish to complete their training in one other JAA State and not several
like you intend. I am assuming that you wish the UK to be the State of
Licence issue, therefore before you commence your training there are a
number of issues that you need to be aware of.

1. There is a procedure to convert your Dutch JAR-FCL Class 1 Medical
certificate to a UK issued JAR-FCL Class 1 as detailed on our medical
departments website, see link below.

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/med/default.asp?page=2576

2. If you intend to complete your CPL(A) modular course in Spain you will
need an agreement between the UK CAA and the Spanish Authority. We would
have no objection to this if we are the State of Licence issue but would
need written confirmation from the Spanish agreeing to this arrangement. If
you intend to complete your CPL(A) modular course in the US then this will
need to be at a JAA approved FTO, and not an FAA approved school.

3. If you intend to complete your ATPL theory in the Netherlands then again
if we are the State of licence issue, we would accept a valid pass in the
JAR-FCL examinations. We have an arrangement with the Dutch Authorities that
we will not require their permission, they are in agreement as long as we
are the State of licence issue.

4. The IR and ME will be classified as additional ratings once you have been
issued with a JAR-CPL(A) therefore these may be completed in any other fully
approved JAA member State. The MCC can either be taken as part of an JAA
approved type rating course for a multi-pilot type or a standalone approved
course.

As mentioned earlier, the above is based on the UK being the State of
Licence issue, however If you intend to have your licence issued by another
JAA Member State then an agreement will need to be made with those States
where you complete your training to ensure that they at the end of the day
be willing to issue your licence.

I hope that the above has answered your enquiry.

GazDeLuxe

15th Feb 2006, 19:41

Bertie, could you tell us which Spanish FTO you were?
These are very interesting issue's for many of us I suppose.
It even looks like an indication of some very careful kind of cooperation between JAA states... :eek: :eek:
Really, before EASA is going to be in charge these are wonderful developments :ok:

ant1

15th Feb 2006, 20:51

Hi Bertie Bassett
You say "You can do a rating at any JAA Approved FTO".
So,as long as the TRTO is JAA approved, no objection should be expected from the JAA authority who issued the license and hence will add the rating, right?
I'm asking you this because I've heard that Spain requires you to produce copies of:
- TRTO certificate
- TRI's license
- TRE's license
Why the 2 latters?
There is also a CAA list of approved FTOs and TRTOs (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1211).
Take Randhem (http://www.randhem.com) for instance. They claim to be a JAA TRTO recognized by the UK CAA but are not on the CAA list :confused:
JeroenC
What's the CAA email address to inquire about a change of state of issue

Thanks

Trislander

15th Feb 2006, 22:34

DGAC is the French CAA.
AENA is the Spanish CAA.

ciao :8

JeroenC

16th Feb 2006, 05:39

Ant1:
[email protected]

Regards,

JC

ant1

16th Feb 2006, 20:27

thanks JeroenC :ok:
.
Trislander, AENA ain´t the Spanish CAA. AENA manages airports and air traffic services.
Both French and Spanish CAAs are DGAC. Just wanted to let you know ;)

Trislander

16th Feb 2006, 22:28

Whoops, now I'm embarrassed, I've had it wrong all these years! :oh: :O

Cheers :ok:

learboys

16th Feb 2006, 23:50

Contacted CAA yesterday
Spoke to a very helpful gent who explained the ins and out and directed me to their site with an approved list of flight schools. Bottom line if they not on the list they not approved. Don't go there.

follow this link http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1211

With regards to doing flight training in Spain. Aerofan is not approved. As yet they have not applied for approval, and it doesn't look like they going to even try, after contacting them, I was told I must arrange it myself with the UK CAA. Fat chance of that happening!

You can do it in Jeres, they are approved and there is an agreement in place with UK CAA.

hope this helps

Trislander

17th Feb 2006, 21:49

Much to my disappointment there are no more modular courses running at Jerez this year.

Actually there is one starting March 20th but it is already full. And that's it til next winter due to lots of airline integrated courses going thru this summer.

UK it is then! :( Think I've found a good school here tho.

All the best to everyone going for it this summer.
Tri :ok:

ant1

18th Feb 2006, 22:06

Thanks a lot Bertie Bassett :ok:

JockeyGB

18th Apr 2006, 12:42

Hi
I have been looking for recent threads on different schools in Spain for my ME & IR and MCC. Are there out there any modular people with some usefull feedback from their recent adventures in the Spanish skies?? Heard that alot of the controllers dont speak a decent spanish and would rather be left to their coffe than having a PA28 or 172 in the curcuit! How is the general level of english at the different schools, I have heard that it varies quite alot from school to school?? Feedback, comments and PM's appreciated!!! :bored:

welliewanger

18th Apr 2006, 12:59

I think flight training europe (Jerez) are about to stop doing modular courses, but if you can get on one I'd recommend them. I went to check the school out for an integrated course last week and it was excellent.

The only other place I know is aeromadrid. Have spoken to them by email, not sure how good they are. Give them a call.

jar-dk

19th Apr 2006, 11:07

Hi
Cant recommend AEROMADRID for modular me/ir, they promise alot and kept maybe half, the amount of complaining that had to be done in order to get into the air just to get close to the initial promised 2-3hours of flight every day was alot - and if you were lucky you flew 3-4 times a week incl simulator. The most annoying thing is that the airport has no ils or nbd apr so alot of cancellations took place, and maybe 6 out of 10 times when you walked back to the bus due to a cancellation the other schools flew,now that pisses you off :mad: - and having a cpl licence before I went there it made me wonder and dispair at 60% of the cancellation, which i could understand for ppl student but not cpl/me-ir. The initial contact by mail or phone is done by their director of marketing in perfect professional english - certainly very different to the standard of the school when you arrive!

YYZ

19th Apr 2006, 16:25

A good friend of mine just returned from Malaga after trying to do his FIC, did all his other training in the UK, came back after one week and only one flight!!

Says the facilities are fine and the instructors seem professional but their organisation skills suck!? Even after complaining to the main man no positive action was taken to resolve the problems?

Shame because everything else looked alright?

YYZ

ianpa

19th Apr 2006, 19:32

Hi
Just finished MEIR at Aerofan, Can't recommend them enough. I can see why you make the comment about Aeromadrid. I think maybe their insurance only allows them to fly in absolutely perfect weather (anymore than 5kts crosswind and they appear to be grounded). The standard of English is good, throughout ATC which is more than can be said for the ground. But you are in Spain what do you expect. Aerodynamics seem to be well talked about, but during my course I spent a couple of nights flying in and out of Malaga. Great fun, but had I been doing my complete MEIR there, I think I would soon have tired of the massive taxing distances and long waits due to Easyjet etc.

smith

19th Apr 2006, 23:47

If you are a UK resident, are the licences issued by the CAA or the Spanish equivalent? I presume its the latter

scameron77

20th Apr 2006, 01:55

Check ride in Spanish airspace, Spanish equivalent of the CAA will issue it.

Secondally, do research well in advance of going to another country and what you'll hve to do to work wherever you see yourself.

Some JAA states ATPL exams aren't recognised in all the other states (i.e. was recently at BGS with a bunch of Italians, they informed me that they were doing their ATPL's in the UK as there were no preconditions attached to ATPL's sat via the CAA, I think there may be an issue for Spain too)

Check validity with the authority in your chosen country (i.e. UK = CAA)

Check terms of immigration rules, work permits, etc. As a UK citizen can you work in Ethiopia?

Pilot_Link

20th Apr 2006, 08:29

JAR-FCL & Flying in Spain

All flight training done for the issue of a licence (PPL or CPL), must be done in the same JAR country where the theoretical training and examinations have been done.

Flight training for additional ratings, i.e. IR, ME-IR, MEP, FI, CRI, A320 etc, can be done in any JAR member state. All new ratings will be inserted into the JAR licence by the "State of Licence Issue".

Spanish Air traffic controllers do like drinking coffee and tea, just like any other air traffic controller, but I think you'll find that it's very rare in Spain for a controller to deny you permission to fly a few approaches, even if you're in a PA28 or a C172. Obviously this might not be the case in large class 1 international airports such as Malaga, Palma or Alicante in summer, due to traffic.

RT in Spain is in either English or Spanish. RT in most countries is exactly the same... either English or the local language.

Hope that info. helps.

captmav

20th Apr 2006, 08:46

Finished an ME-IR conversion course with AEROFAN at Cuatro Vientos airport outside Madrid yesterday and I can't recommend them enough. Absolutely fantastic, and with the added bonus of having an English chap there to smooth the way.

I completed the course bang on the time limit i set them, the only thing i can say if you do want to come out to Spain, book well in advance because James the English/Spanish instructor is only allowed to take on so many English speaking students at a time. Which i have to say works perfectly and avoids delays and conflict.

Lightheart

20th Apr 2006, 16:33

Still amazes me the amount of misinformation that's thrown around.

JockyGB, please download a copy of Lasors from the CAA web site and read section A8.

You will see that it is possible to complete the theory exams, flight training and even medical in one JAA state and have a licence issue from another.

It depends on the states and their willingness to co-operate with one another.

Although you will receive some good advice on pprune, there's nothing better than doing your OWN research.

Good luck.

Lalala

20th Apr 2006, 16:35

When I started training in Spain I looked around a lot of schools including aerofan and aromadrid but was most convinced with Aerodynamics, they have an excelent Handeling company, loads of planes new sims, really nice offices and class rooms and english speaking instructors. I did the VFR flights from a nearby LEAX airfied and the IFR from Malaga int. that way saved waiting time at malaga. :)

apruneuk

20th Apr 2006, 19:05

If you want an IR in 3 weeks for less than half the price of the UK then cross over that little bit of water that separates us from the rest of Europe and visit Aerofan near Madrid. Friendly (remember that?), professional and efficient. I cannot believe that anyone still does it in the UK; still, ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

JockeyGB

20th Apr 2006, 20:08

Thanks for the great replies and PMs so far, keep them coming, seems like im not the only one who needed some new feedback.
Lightheart - thanks for your lasors concern - im well aware what they say - im looking for info on the flightschools and their proffesionallism, in order not to pick the wrong place for my me/ir, that is the exteent of my own research.

pipertommy

20th Apr 2006, 21:16

So Lightheart if went to Spain for a me/ir,i can get it put on my lience in Gatwick?Is it true by doing my atpl`s in uk i can only do a cpl at certain schools in Spain?

ant1

20th Apr 2006, 21:25

The top School in Spain is Adventia (http://www.adventia.org) in Salamanca.
Let's say it is the Spanish equivalent of OFT.

Lightheart

21st Apr 2006, 01:59

According to Lasors,
"An applicant may only apply to change the state of licence issue of a JAR-FCL licence provided that employment or normal residency is established in that state. NORMAL RESIDENCY means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calender year because of personal and occupational ties...

This means that yes, you could do the training is Spain , get a Spanish licence and then convert to CAA. There are fees for this process.

However, you should get written approval from the CAA and Spanish authorities first, in order to cover yourself.

A list of recognised FTOs in Spain is also available on the CAA website.

If I were you I would find out how much the courses are to do in Spain at your choosen school, add living expenses and CAA fees for the conversion and then compare against doing all or part in UK to see if it is worth your while.

If in doubt about anything get it confirmed by the CAA and leave time (two months ago I sent an email to the CAA regarding another issue and am still awaiting a response) for responses, especially from the Spainsh side of things as they are slow.

Please read Lasors.

Good luck and safe flying.

pipertommy

21st Apr 2006, 11:35

Thank you Lightheart.I will have a good read of Lasors:ok:

BIG MISTER

21st Apr 2006, 13:15

So which Spainish school would you go for then guys ?

Aerofan ?

Aerodynamics ?

Any of the others ?

Or is it still going to have to be the UK to keep the employers happy ?

Anyone had any negative feedback from employers who see a Spanish school on their CV ?

How about the Uk schools when its time to do a checkride and keep current. Do the CFI's roll their eyes and shoot steam through their ears ?

Any other comments are most welcome ! :ok:

JockeyGB

24th Apr 2006, 08:33

Aerofan certainly tickles my fancy:} Have talked to them, now I just need to book.

Its time to bust the tower:cool:

jar-dk

25th Apr 2006, 21:25

With what I have seen at Cuatro Vientos AEROFAN can do it in the time frame you have mentioned, they are quite go minded and let you fly to the limits of your licence, aeromadrid certainly could not do it within 3 weeks!
If you ask most schools they will say yes - not that many can offer that service.
About your other question look around in here many wonnabees and pilots have uttered their opinions on that subject.

smith

26th Apr 2006, 19:20

Claycomm

Do you already have CPL? Was there no other alternative aircraft you could use? Seems strange. So you have done MEP ME/IR, since 7th April, that is great. Think I might be tempted.

smith

27th Apr 2006, 12:15

How do you think the UK airlines will take to JAA ME/IR's issued in Spain?

hughesyd

27th Apr 2006, 13:59

How do you think the UK airlines will take to JAA ME/IR's issued in Spain?

Not a problem at all!!. I am in a position where i am currently training with Aerofan and Aeromadrid, so i feel qualified enough to comment on both. Both are good in their own right, but 2 very different schools.

As for ME/IR issued in spain. I have seen a few guys now come through Aerofan from the UK, all Modular, some have done training in more than 3 countries, never mind schools!!. I know a couple of guys who did their ME/IR here, applied to airlines with less than 300 hours and are now flying within Airlines in the UK, so it cant be that bad can it!!.

It all boils down to your ability as a pilot, your personality, Contacts, the interview and a little luck!.

Spain is a JAA state, so all your ratings, trainig ect are recognised in the UK.

Lightheart

27th Apr 2006, 14:36

www.globalaviation.gr

Maybe this school in Greece may help you. Apparantly in Greece the CPL/IR can be done in one, two hour check ride.

femaleWannabe

28th Apr 2006, 19:51

Thanks Lightheart, this looks good :)

If doing the CPL abroad, does it need to be converted or anything in the UK? I seem to remember reading somewhere that having ratings issued abroad is fine, but licenses are different?

ianpa

28th Apr 2006, 20:14

I am a little confused as to how any one would know that your MEIR was issued in Spain. I returned from Aerofan about 2 weeks ago and duly sent all my paperwork to Gatwick. Today my fresh licence arrived back with MEIR added. There is no mention anywhere that the licence was issued in Spain.

BillieBob

28th Apr 2006, 21:29

I am a little confused as to how any one would know that your MEIR was issued in Spain.Well, they wouldn't, because it wasn't. Your IR was issued in the UK on the basis of training and testing carried out in Spain. Since any prospective employer will ask to see your logbook, and you are required to record in that logbook the airfields of departure and arrival, It is, on balance, likely that most interviewers would be able to draw the obvious conclusion. If, however, you were ashamed of having gained your IR in Spain, you could always falsify your logbook.

ianpa

28th Apr 2006, 21:42

Very good Billiebob point taken. And by the way I am certainly not ashamed to have completed my IR in Spain. Out of interest where did you do yours?

excrab

28th Apr 2006, 21:49

I believe there is an issue with Spanish issued licences in that the Spanish equivalent of the CAA will not allow foreign (ie non Spanish) TREs to sign licence proficiency checks. At least one UK airline has therefore been requiring newly hired pilots with Spanish issued JAA licences to convert them to UK licences. Not a big problem but obviously involves some cost which in these days of low cost would be met by the licence holder. Still probably not that expensive compared to the savings to be made.

pipertommy

28th Apr 2006, 22:51

By Spanish issued licences do you mean the CPL?

excrab

29th Apr 2006, 17:33

Yes or frozen ATPL or whatever you want to call it - don't know about PPL if that is what you are interested in but suspect not on this forum - also don't know how it applies to class ratings for single crew aircraft if at all.

cabeza

29th Apr 2006, 17:50

Hello everyone, I did ME-IR in Mallorca, the web site is www.airpalaviacion.com however it seems to be down at the moment. All the training was done in english. Nice atmostphere and no hassle, worth looking in to.
NB the skills test for ME-IR in spain is around 150-180 euros!

pipertommy

30th Apr 2006, 12:24

Hi Excrab,by CPL i meant the 25hr course for issue of CPL.Not CPL/ME/IR.Should have wriiten it clearer.I understand you can`t do the CPL at certain Spanish when you have completed the ATPL`S in the UK unless they have been passed by CAA?

BIG MISTER

30th Apr 2006, 15:15

Almost correct but not quite....

You can do your CPL in a school outside the UK but that school must be a UK CAA approved school.

So Jerez is ok and any of those in the US that offer the course that are basically 'UK schools operating oversea' or 'UK CAA approved'

:}

femaleWannabe

30th Apr 2006, 18:23

Get this point absolutely clear... If you did your theory exams in the UK you MUST undergo your CPL training in the UK - you can do your MEP and MEIR in another JAA state but yout CPL will have to be done in the country of issue of your license.

my suggestion (as is what I did) is to first do your MEP & MEIR in Spain and then finish off in the UK with your CPL.

having already done your MEIR, the CPL course will be just 15 hrs instead of 25 hrs. This can be completed in a week or two even with UK wx.

Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to know :D

pipertommy

1st May 2006, 09:57

Yip thanks too!:ok:but that adds on five hours to the IR course? 55hrs with atpl written passed against 50hrs with a CPL passed?

smith

1st May 2006, 16:28

Claycomm

Would you say that your course was of high standard? Were teher any issues you had with the tuition. Your description of the course seems ideal for me.

What accomodation did you use?

pipertommy

2nd May 2006, 10:42

Yes sounds a good idea!!!think i`ll try for the ME/IR around the start of next year:ok: And like you say do the CPL in the better weather in the UK.

smith

2nd May 2006, 16:22

Thanks for all the good information, I am liking the idea of AD more and more.

A few more question's if you don't mind

Did the CPL work out at £5995 as advertised? And how much was the hour building? Have you finished the course now and how long did it take you? Was the flight school busy with students?

Thanks in advance

Smith

nosher

2nd May 2006, 19:32

Hi ALL,
Can anyone confirm that Flight Training Europe (Spain) are stopping their Modular Training program?
Havent recieved a reply from the College!

BIG MISTER

2nd May 2006, 19:35

Yes they have stopped Mod IR students for the time being......

At least thats what they said in their email to me

They gave not idea when they are starting again

smith

3rd May 2006, 07:34

Thanks again Claycomm,

I emailed them a few days ago, but have heard nothing back from them so far, is this slow communication typical, its not a good start for me :{

How many hours (PPL) do you need to start the course?

They quote £5995 in the banner ad here on pprune, however your price at a rate of £1= E1.4 works out at £8,200. Although it is still a very good price, why the difference.

Sorry for all the questions, but I am quite interested in going there and want as much info as possible.

smith

3rd May 2006, 07:40

Was recently at a FlyBe/FTE seminar at Glasgow Uni regarding their MAPS scheme and FTE said they were stopping modular indefinately as they were too busy with integrated. I think they have a new integrated course starting virtually every month now whereas previously there were a few months in the year where no course was starting thus further down the line they had free time for modular students.

However as I said this has been stopped indefinately. Unlike other schoools you could not choose when you wanted to start say your CPL/IR etc. There were certain fixed dates for the modules as they were fitted round the slack time between integrated course.

smith

14th May 2006, 07:17

Will be ready to do ME/IR in mid July and am seriously considering Aeordynamics Malaga. Is this advisable at this time of the year? Wil it be too hot for the flying side of things?

knik99

16th May 2006, 16:06

Doing ME/IR conversion at Aerofan, so far, every OK.

Good organization, good school complex, nice C310, good condition and nice to fly, and excellent weather.

Keep you informed guys, but looking very good so far!

smith

16th May 2006, 18:53

Claycomm

Did you finish the ME/IR in three weeks? Did you find this tough going, would it be easier over 4 weeks or so?

Smith

johnny 1

17th May 2006, 17:08

Flight training Europe may be finishing up doing modular courses which would be a good thing. They are very good for integrated but really have no interest in the modular route. They do however have no problem taking your money.
Any other school in spain would be a better choice , i believe Aerofan is very good

nebrot

18th May 2006, 10:54

I am starting out in Spain th. 28th of may at Aerofan. They seem very professional compared to other schools in Spain... I have alle 55h+ IR (A) and need 11h ME to get my IR(A) ME, MEP(land). But I am a curious about changing from PA44 to their Cessna 310..? How demanding is the skilltest in spain/Aerofan? Would it be possible for me to complete 11h + skill test within 1 week at aerofan or how long time should I calculate wiht?

Thanks for a very good dialog guys...

aerobatic sean

18th May 2006, 20:02

Aerofan students,
Please keep up the news on your current training at Aerofan - and other Spanish schools. I - and it seems others - are looking at Aerofan after good feedback. You are lucky to be doing the I/R training on a C310. That C310 and the Piper Aztec are suppose to be the best I/R training a/c.
If the feed back continues to be good - I will be in Spain for training. A great country, very civilised place to live and train

aerobatic sean
blue side down boys

knik99

19th May 2006, 15:05

Right guys,

Today is my 4th day flying at Aerofan, 11 hours so far. C310 is nice airplane, and weather just PERFECT.

Any especific question just ask!

pipertommy

19th May 2006, 15:35

Once you pass the IR do you send off to Gatwick or the Spanish equivalent to have it put on your licence?ie will it look any different on your licence coming from Spain?

hughesyd

19th May 2006, 17:25

you send it off to Gatwick and no, there is no indication that your IR was done in Spain, although saying that, it shouldnt make ay difference as the standard here in spain is just as good as the UK.

pipertommy

19th May 2006, 19:16

Thanks!Sorry i did`nt mean to for it to come over that way,i am sure the standards are just as strict as the UK.Thanks again for the the answer to my question:ok:

femaleWannabe

25th May 2006, 18:20

I read in another thread somewhere that you have to sit the IR test in the UK?! Is this true or can you do it in spain?

BIG MISTER

25th May 2006, 19:02

Nop - when in JAA Spain do as the Spanish - fly it in Spain !

:}

EC Does It

25th May 2006, 21:23

A word of advice to all of you tyros, make ABSOLUTELY sure that what you pay for is what you will end up receiving. FTE are extremely honest and open as are BM Aviation and Fly in Spain. But..... and its a big but..... there are several english speaking spanish companies around who only want your dinero. It gets to be even more fun when you fly for a spanish company. All in english of course.....

F199

5th Jun 2006, 08:27

Hello!
Just got home after dong my IR conversion at Aerodynamics, got it done in 10 days!
For any info on the school i can help.

johnny 1

5th Jun 2006, 13:35

Aerofan are excellent. Have done some renewals there and could not reccomend them enough. Dont even think about Jerez if they are still doing modular. They simply are not interested but will have no problems about taking your money .I think full time is the only way with this crowd

captwannabe

5th Jun 2006, 19:06

Anyone got info about Adventia (in Salamanca, I think)?

thirtysomething

7th Jun 2006, 19:47

Hi,

Does anybody know the VAT rate for flight training in Spain. I know that on hour building rental its 16% , but on the training itself it might be 7% due to spanish law.. does anybody know conclusivley ?

DC-8

7th Jun 2006, 23:23

When I started my pilot training in Spain about 20 months ago VAT (or IVA here) didn´t apply for pilot studies. So I suppose it hasn´t changed up to date.

thirtysomething

7th Jun 2006, 23:41

even on the flying component ? where are you training ?

DC-8

7th Jun 2006, 23:50

Hi!

I'm studying at Aeromadrid and I have not paid any VAT for the Integrated ATPL course.

And I have some brochures at home of another FTO ,American Flyers Spain, which clarifies that VAT doesn't apply for pilot studies in Spain.

thirtysomething

8th Jun 2006, 00:01

ok, thanks. I thought I would ask as it outlines VAT on some of the prices on the Aerodynamics page at 16%. I own a company in Spain in the " training industry " and what you tell me is rare ( and for me unfortunate :{ )

Enjoy your flying..

F199

12th Jun 2006, 17:35

In Spain for aircraft rentals you do have to pay VAT but not for courses.

BlueRobin

6th Aug 2006, 13:39

How does Aerodynamics Malaga prices stand up against Aerofan? The former don't publish on their website whilst the latter makes a big thing of it.

Fletch

9th Aug 2006, 08:54

For the Multi Rating + Multi IR Rating I believe they charge Euro 10950 for 21 hours multi time + 35 hours FNPT2 time.

Having looked at the threads regarding Aerodynamics Malaga + Aerofan most of the comments seem to be positive. This appears too good to be true almost; schools with a good reputation, nice locations, good weather leading to quick courses at a greatly reduced price compared to UK based training. I had hoped to complete my multi + IR training in the UK but with potential savings of around £5000 I am starting to consider other options.

Apart from how employers view foreign trained pilots, my biggest hangs ups regarding these schools are the experience and quality of instructors they have and the amount of dead time in the aircraft (ie Holding/Taxying times + positioning of the aircraft for IR training). Are all the UK learning objectives covered in the Spanish IR course? It all helps to see if you are comparing like with like.

Would be good to hear any experience/views people have on these issues with these schools.

Cheers.

BlueRobin

11th Aug 2006, 14:47

How does Aerodynamics Malaga prices stand up against Aerofan? The former don't publish on their website whilst the latter makes a big thing of it.

I have a reply from Aerodynamics!

Multi-Engine Instrument Rating Course ME + IR (A) JAR-FCL

Option 1
11.600,-€ / £7.995,-

Option 2
10.950,-€ / £7.552,-

Option 3
8.118,-€ / £5.598,-

Option 4
8.695,-€ / £5.995,-

Requirements (common to all four options):
- Minimum 18 years of age
- Theoretical IR, (recommended theoretical ATPL)
- To hold a PPL (A) including a Night Qualification/Rating
- Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence.
- 70 hours Cross Country flight time as PIC in aeroplanes or
helicopters, of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes.
N.B.: Medical in accordance with JAR-FCL 3.355(b)

Required documentation at start of the course:
- Photocopy of ID card/passport
- Medical Certificate
- Current licence
- Certificate of hours (or copy last page of logbook)
- 2 passport size photos on paper or electronic format
We are currently offering the following four options:

OPTION 1:
40 hours instrument time under instruction FNPT II
21 hours instrument time under instruction in a Multi Engine
Aircraft BE76 or similar (15 hrs IFR + 6 hrs VFR)
JAR ME (A) (VFR) Skill Test
JAR IR (A) Skill Test

OPTION 2:
35 hours instrument time under instruction FNPT II
21 hours flight instruction (Multi Engine Aircraft BE76)
JAR ME/IR (A) Skill Test
JAR ME/VFR (A) Skill Test

OPTION 3:
35 hours instrument time under instruction FNPT II
15 hours instrument time under instruction (Multi Engine Aircraft BE76)
JAR ME/IR (A) Skill Test

OPTION 4: ME (VFR) holder
40 hours FNPT II
15 hours flight instruction (Multi Engine Aircraft BE76)
JAR ME/IR (A) Skill Test