Proposed route in getting to fATPL and funding it

[ask26]

Having had a good look at the mod vs integrated debate and despite reading the stickys one question that wasn't answered and which I am contemplating in going from ab initio to fATPL so that I cover both angles of the mod vs int would be to do something as follows. What do people think:

PPL - locally done (Sheffield) - £5000

Q. Is this q.important as to where you get this qualification, I don't think so as this is just getting you to a basic level

Ground School - Bristol disance learning - £2000

Q. Can you start this before getting even a PPL as this I sense is where the bulk of the time is spent and would like to do asap

Hours building - £10000 approx

I'd like to do these in the UK as that's where I'd be flying and so any recommendations about good value for money would be appreciated. Location I'm flexible with. In the past I've heard Phoenix flying school is cheap and with only a 400m runway you'd get a lot of practice in stopping quickly...

Or is the better option to maybe if you know people abroad to do some flying there, and with regards to the 100hrs PiC minimum as you hours build would those come naturally?

CPL, IR, MCC, JOT - £25000 approx

For this stage I'd like (and I know this is a matter of opinion) to do it in one go one after the other at a recognised UK school.

Hence I was thinking OAT, that way its not the integrated course but you are doing a good chunk of learning with a repuatble school to the fATPL standard but keeping your costs a lot lower and you might gain a few contacts that way.

Total cost about £42000 compared to an integrated of £60-70k

What do people think and are there any areas that can be improved, other good schools which do an all-in-one package?


To give an idea of my knowledge I've done 2 trial lessons and loved them, am 26 and career changing from being a maths teacher and would try and get an HSBC professional studies loan for the last part of training so 25k unsecured, the earlier funding some from savings and the rest maybe another loan or credit cards

If you also know of banks which offer these style loans that would also be useful.

[Blinkz]

Sounds ok in theory but you've' missed a number of things. Don't forget how much it is going to cost in food and accomadation, as well as in lost earnings. Also the CAA fees are quite substantial.

Also HSBC have stop giving out professional studies loans to modular pilots, the only courses to be able to use them is CTC and OAT for the integrated course.

[YYZ]

This general subject has been covered many MANY times before, if you use the search function you will get all the answers you would like.

Saying that though, I am sure you will get plenty of replies.

5K PPL? Ill be surprised if you get it that cheap.
Allot of different opinions on where to do the PPL, personal choice plays a big part.

2K Exams, + accommodation and exam fees, add another 1.5K
And yes, you can start these before getting your PPL, however you cannot sit the exams until you have your PPL in hand.

Hour building, if you are going to do the PPL and CPL/IR in the UK then I personally would go abroad to hour build for two reasons
1. Experience a different environment and have some fun
2. Cost savings against the UK

Onto the expensive bit, CPL, IR, MCC, JOT, 25K seems a bargain.
I’m halfway through my IR and I put 25K to one side for just what you want, it is very close to running out, I should have enough left for a MCC but not a JOT.
Put in place a substantial contingency percentage to cover any problems otherwise you are going to fall short of what you are aiming at.

Get going around some schools to get a feel for where you fancy, do not fall for the sales hype, talk to the current students to see if they are happy, It’s allot of money to spend so do your homework thoroughly.

Good luck
YYZ

[ask26]

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/skills/mod-05.htm

does the Professional Pilot package 2 for £23k
which seems like a good deal perhaps

Yeah I think Phoenix in Sheffield might do the lessons for about £90/hours so 45hrs plus fees = 5k

[GusHoneybun]

42 Grand sounds like a reasonable figure. The more you can muster the better, obviously.
Just to break it all down for you a bit more.

First things first.

Medical

This is the show stopper for most people. Book it through the CAA and get yourself down to Gatwick. Cost.....£337 I think now they have dropped the requirement for an EEG at initial issue.
Total Cost £337
Total Hours 0


PPL

5 grand is a good price, however if you shop around and are prepared to travel (within the UK) then you can get a PPL for a bit cheaper. The trick is to look north, a long way north.
Based on Sheffield's web site there is the basic 45 hours flying (at £97). Remember that there are ground school exams (£44 a pop, with 7 to take), plus your skills test (£142) with associated aircraft hire (£194). Not forgetting your RT practical test (About £60 I think). All in £5069. Now comes the sting in the tail, the CAA will charge you £149 for initial issue. Personally I suggest setting up a direct debit to the CAA at this point, saves time :o).
Oh, and it takes about 6 weeks to process and you cannot exercise the privileges until you get the licence and sign it.
Total Cost £5,555
Total Hours 47
What you can do while you are waiting is

Night Qualification
5 hours of flying at night, including 3 hours dual plus 5 full stop landing. Netherthorpe is not lit at night so you will need to go to another school for this. It should take 3-4 nights to bag it. Should be tops about £600 for this course.No test and a £70 fee to the CAA.
Total Cost £6,225
Total Hours 52

Ground School
Now it's time to lock yourself away in a dark room for 8 months as it's time to tackle the dreaded ground school. And which school is best? well this is a debate all on its own. Who knows. Nobody has studied at them all hence all opinions will be subjective. Talk to all the schools your interested in and form your own opinion. Personally, if I had to do it all again I would go for Bristol rather than Guildhall Uni (man those notes were wordy). According to the website, looking at £1900 for both modules. Plus you need to find £55 for each exam and joy of joy there are 14 to sit. Don't forget that as part of this course, you must attend 2 sets of 2 week brush up courses before sitting the exams, so accommodation needs to be thought about. Finding some long lost straw chewing, cider drinking, west country aunt would probably be your best bet.
Total Cost £8,895
Total Hours 52



Hour Building
As stated above, your best bet is the states. If you are doing all your training in this country, there is no reason to do the hour building here. However, when you are in the states, for gawd's sake don't just drill holes in the sky. Take an JAA instructor who will get you to fly to CPL standards. Try and get into a professional mindset whilst hour building. Keep accurate plogs and fuel checks. It's a case of self discipline, but you will reap the rewards later in your training.
As for where to go for hour building, again it's subjective as people have good/bad experiences of schools. Personally, I would choose Florida as the weather's not too bad there and there are a good selection of jaa schools there to nab an instructor from. Picking a school at random, you can hire a 150 for $7200 for 100 hours. That works out at about £3968. Call it £4000 for luck. However, there are flights, accommodation, visas, check flights involved in this. To err on this side of caution this won't get you much change from £1000. So lets say 100 hours is about £5000. Any takers?
Total Cost £13,895
Total Hours 152
All starting to look a bit more impressive hours wise. Now on to the big bucks.

CPL, ME and IR
Most schools will offer a package for CPL, ME and IR training as a whole. You can chop and change between schools, but continuity of training can be key at this stage of your development. Plus, you might be able to negotiate a reduction at some school. Again, people are subjective as to which is the best school to go to, so take advice with a pinch of salt. It's a very good idea to whittle your choices down to 2 or 3 possible schools and go and visit them. The first impression when you walk through a door can give you a good idea how a school is run and whether it's for you or not.

Taking 3 schools at different geographical locations. I have no affiliation with any of these schools, but have read some good things about them. Some of these schools offer multi engine CPL's. As you will not have any complex experience at this point, it could take much longer to come up to test standard in a multi rather than a single engine which you are used to.

Airways Flight Training : Exeter
Modular CPL : £4,600 + Test Hire : £504
MEP : £2,600 + Test Hire : £335
ME/IR : £9,900

Total : £17,939


Stapleford Flight Centre : Stapleford
Modular CPL : £4,495 + Hire for test £300
Multi : £1,900 + Test and Test Hire £350
ME/IR : £9,300 + Hire for test : £500

Total : £16,575


Leeds Flying School. : Leeds
Modular CPL : £4,895 + Hire for test £390
Multi : £1,700 + Test and Test Hire £295
ME/IR : £10,950 + Hire for test : £590

Total : £18,820



For doing the sums, I will take the worst case scenario (sorry Dylan) and choose LFS. The total unfortunately, does not include CAA examiner fees, which currently stand at £637 for both the CPL and IR. And of course, you must pay for the CPL, ME and IR to be issued. If you apply for the IR at the same time as the CPL, you are given that for free. So the CAA licence fees come to £294. Ouch! Ok, adding it all up

Total Cost £34,284
Total Hours 212 (33 hours multi)


MCC
Many places do an MCC. Don't be fooled into thinking that because you've done this on a full motion B737 sim that the airlines will be tripping over themselves to recruit you. They won't. It's to teach multi crew coordination, not how to fly a jet. A good turbo prop sim will teach you everything you need to know at a fraction of the cost. For example, London guildhall have a beech sim and charge a MCC for £2250,

So, assuming you are a wizzkid and can pass everything first time in minimum hours you are looking at spending.

Total Cost £36,534
Total Hours 212 (33 hours multi)

However, we are human and chances are you will find some aspect of flying difficult and need some extra tuition. Personally, I would add a contingency of about 20% to all of the above and this is my minimum budget to play with. Anything you have left over after training I would look to invest in a flight instructors rating as this gives you your first flying job, you meet all the right people, make contacts, keep you skills current and have the privilidge of imparting some of your enthusiasm for flying on the paying punters.

And yes, I have left the cost of living out of the equation as I don't know your personal situation. If you don't have parents to fall back on for cheap digs, then I reckon a budget of £100 a week will keep you in baked beans and bus fare. This whole process can take just over a year from 0 to hero. As this will take more than a year, you also have to renew your medical at some point, another £100. Nobody said it would be cheap.

Good Luck.

[helicopter-redeye]

Excellent, more pilots in Sheffield.

I think you can do the ATPL GS before finishing the PPL in that it takes a while to wade through the stuff and if you are going fast/ full time you will have the PPL (A) done before getting to the first set of exams.

Checkout OAT and GTS for the GTS as well. GTS are marginally lower cost and more like having a personal tutor than the bigger schools (the biggest class I ever sat in was 6, the smallest (H only!) was 2 so you get to address what you want to go through). The OAT notes are very good (your welcome to borrow the ones I have and are done with seeing as your local). The GTS notes have a lot of content (my ones are all written on now so not so easy for somebody esle to use).

I think also HSBC are still providing loans in some form (more local discretion of the manager? - but check). HSBC in Woodseats are now very 'aviation aware' so may be somewhere where discretion may be in your favour.

h-r:)

[YYZ]

All costs so far are also on first time passes in minimum hours.
Not many people manage one let alone both.

YYZ
:(

[Dozza2k]

you mention wanting to do the hour building in the UK as thats where you'll be (airline?) flying eventually? Not sure if thats a good reason because:

IFR and VFR very different!

plus its cheaper to hour build abroad, and if you did a ppl in the uk then you know it all already.

flying abroad is a great experience!

[ask26]

Thanks a lot for all those replies, quite a lot to ponder, my main issue being that of getting finance. hence am also looking at a few integrated courses, mainly as that way I can get a loan to cover the entire cost of the course as if modular I believe you couldn't get a loan for say 40k as it's not in one place.

Aside from the standard UK approved places, anyone heard anything of the Western Australian Aviation College scheme that was recently launched?

[Alex Whittingham]

H-Redeye, you can't start the ATPL GS until you hold a PPL. It's the only pre-requisite for the course.

[englishal]

I would go to America, live in the sun for 4 months, and do zero to fATPL for £25,000 including accommodation and Bristol GS........Then you can spend the remaining £17,000 on supporting yourself while your find a job, or buy some turbine ME time, or on a damn good piss up......;)

[ask26]

englishal - would that not then involve converting your FAA to a JAR approved licence + accom and fees I'd imagine it could work out the same.

Which place to do all this i.e. zero to fATPL were you thinking of?

[englishal]

Nope....it is an inclusive price (FAA MECPL/IR -> JAA fATPL).

I'm not going to mention the name of the organisation, but a bit of searching, or reading Flyer mag should put you in the right direction;)

[helicopter-redeye]

H-Redeye, you can't start the ATPL GS until you hold a PPL. It's the only pre-requisite for the course

But you could read the books & study them..

[Jinkster]

If your a phoenix - have you spoke to Mr Smith (FI over there)?