HASELL check before Steep turns Ex15

[Mintflavour]

Hi,

With reference to Exercise 15 Steep turns. I would like to get a feel of what most instructors teach in terms of checks before carrying out a steep turn.

Example a full HASELL check,

or

above 3000' agl and good look out, under both wings and behind.

and finally do you advise the student to complete a HASELL check before the tight turn in the test if you might not necessary do it during the lessons.

Thanks


mint

[Human Factor]

It certainly can't be considered to be bad practice to carry out a HASELL check before doing steep turns. I suppose it's a more extreme manoeuvre than normal therefore there is a greater risk of the aeroplane departing so checking "brakes off" and "loose articles" is probably sensible, in which case why not do the HASELL checks anyway.

A good lookout, particularly behind ('cos that's where you'll be going fairly shortly) goes without saying I would hope. Good practice would be entry to the steep turn from a standard rate 1 turn, where you've carried out a good lookout.

IMHO, ideally you should train as if you were on test, just to make sure you don't miss anything on the day by getting out of your routine.

[GusHoneybun]

A full HASELL check is a bit of overkill for EX15. A verry good look around, especially behind is sufficient, followed by T's and P's. If in a warrior where the rearward view is restricted, then this might involve a 90 degree turn to check your six. The exercise is to teach the proper technique for executing a 180 aboutturn in a tight space (ie a valley avec low cloud). No real time to go through a full HASELL in that situation.

A HASELL check is really to check your airspace is clear if you are about to commence 'high energy' or 'unpredicable' maneouvres like stalls/spins or aerobatics.

[Keygrip]

I don't see a lot of point in doing a clearing turn to see if it's safe to do a turn - especially if you consider that the radius of the clearing turn is greater than the steep turn and uses more space.

100% agree on a thorough - and CONSTANT - lookout though (and going left first?).

It would be easier to encompass all, if the student were taught to enter and control the exercise by reference to the outside World and not the instruments.

When it comes to the question of passing a test - a perfectly co-ordinated instrument turn into another aircraft is not as good as losing 100 feet of altitude whilst checking the airspace.

On the subject - why does the FAA require steep turns on instruments?

[slim_slag]

On the subject - why does the FAA require steep turns on instruments?

Believe that was taken out last year.

[hugh flung_dung]

In my opinion there's no need for any checks other than a FREDA at the start and end, nor is there any reason to be above 3000ft. As Keygrip said, why do a clearing turn before a turn?
It's v.important that studes eyes are outside and that he/she only glances in to check that they've selected and held the right attitude. However, the aim is to maintain altitude (and maintain IAS if possible) so some reference to instruments is required.

HF: why is the aircraft more likely to depart? It should be balanced and at a safe speed; at level 60deg bank you'll only be at 2g so a 41.4% increase in stall speed from the 1g stall.

GHB: a wingover would be more appropriate in a narrow valley, I'd assumed the application of a steep turn was collision avoidance and development of handling skill.

HFD

[Whopity]

Why do you teach Steep Turns?

so that the student will be able to safely avoid other traffic, objects etc.

If you teach HASELL first, then they will not develop any sense of urgency!

Think of minimum level operation with minimum visibility, a mast looms up ahead; you really don't want them to hit the mast whilst doing HASELL checks.

[BEagle]

HASELL checks before Steep Turns?

Bollocks!

Message ends.

[Send Clowns]

Checks before a steep turn? Instructor has a quick look at the Ts & Ps, and a discrete but thorough look in the direction of turn, then calls out an imaginary close contact! Teach them what it's really for, and that whatever they might be expected to do in the test, gaining or losing 1-200' is less important than hauling the aircraft onto a heading that is not in conflict with another flying piece of steel!

I even demo the max-rate turn, to show them that the aircraft will (a) roll really quickly if you use lots of rudder too, roll rate being important at this stage, (b) stay in one piece as long as you're below the yellow arc and (c) turn level at more than 60°, so slight overbanking need not result in a panicked spiral descent. Oh, and (d) stall and enter an incipient spin if you take it too far into the buffet.

[Human Factor]

HF: why is the aircraft more likely to depart? It should be balanced and at a safe speed; at level 60deg bank you'll only be at 2g so a 41.4% increase in stall speed from the 1g stall.

Agreed totally. Doesn't mean a stude will get it right though...

[BigEndBob]

Rather than going around in circles trying to pull the wings off the aircraft, would be far more useful to practise 45 degree steep turns with say two stage of flap.
This would represent more the situation in bad weather, say low level turn onto final and all the nasties that can happen.

Also much more comfortable way to circle a ground object.

[BingoWings]

A 60 degree level banked turn is a high energy manoeuvre, you are pulling 2g. I don’t ask my PPL students to perform that kind of turn, but I do demonstrate to them to show the amount of back pressure and power required. Hopefully the stall warning will sound and they can appreciate the higher stall speed associated. Therefore, I would certainly clear the area and make an announcement that we are general handling.

I do not see any reason to complete a HASELL check for 45 degree turns (you may as well do a RayBan alignment check!). It’s a basic manoeuvre; eyes should be outside anyway, just like any other stage of flight. What I will be prepared for, is the possible (hopeful) wake turbulence and the students reaction.

[Send Clowns]

I wouldn't make that separation between a 45° and 60° turn - the 60° is no more challenging than many other parts of the syllabus, nor would I say a high-energy manouevre, although perhaps that is because of having learnt aeros. 45 and 60 are just different degrees of steep turn, although obviously the only one I teach as a quick, immediate avoidance turn is 60°.

Surely the 60° turn is in the syllabus, so can be expected on test? Your students need to know how to perform it anyway, being the quickest turn that is safe for most people and not considered aerobatic!

Bob

Why teach students to circle an object? Apart, of course, from an orbit which is best shown at downwind or cruise speed, IMHO, at around 30° average AOB. They should not be encouraged to be flying around ground objects until they have much more experience. OK circling objects is used in the low-level exercise to teach wind awareness, but I would not generally use 45° or 2 stages of flap for that matter. That's a lot of drag if there's a problem!

Surely this is one of the areas of temptation we should be teaching them not to explore, the circling low and slow around the girlfriend's house.

Perhaps occasional practice with flap just in case of an error on final, and you are right limited to 45°, but mostly steep turns are for avoidance, more likely in the longer cruise section where lookout might be sacrificed in complacent pilots. Certainly I would suggest that more than 30° onto final should only be shown as "how not to do it", a demonstration of overbanking getting them into trouble. I always teach them to use a maximum of 30° in the final turn, and can see no reason to use more unless there is imminent risk of collision.

[porridge]

Agree with BEagle on this. I thought that the teachiong of steep turns was related to having to do an avoiding manoeuvre. So if one is on a collision course with a fast jet and one needs to turn out of the way a HASELL check is going to be somewhat irrelevant.

[Mintflavour]

Interesting views.

I agree the steep turn is used to avoid other objects that require a sense of urgency, and therefore a HASELL would not be appropriate, but then again nor would the the 180 deg lookout in this situation, as your priority rightly said is to get out of the way.

On the other hand we are also trying to demonstrate to the student the importance of airmanship. When you know you are going to perform such manouvres I feel that 3000' is not a bad idea because when the student tries it for the first time solo he is not going to always get it right.

A good all round lookout is paramount.

A full HASELL check maybe good in the test to show the examiner that the stude understands the importance of good airmanship and therefore extra browny points.

mint

[hugh flung_dung]

BW: A 60 degree level banked turn is a high energy manoeuvre, you are pulling 2g. I don’t ask my PPL students to perform that kind of turn
I assume (hope) this was said with tongue firmly in cheek - there's nothing "high energy" about a 60 deg turn and it's a required part of the syllabus; if you're serious you may be giving the wrong message to your studes.

HFD

[fireflybob]

Thanks, Beagle, you took the words out of my mouth - agree 110 % !

[Whopity]

"I feel that 3000' is not a bad idea because when the student tries it for the first time solo he is not going to always get it right."

Thats why Ex 15 includes recovery from a Spiral Dive; this is one of the worst, or least taught items in the syllabus.

[Meeb]

...and again... well said Beagle old chap...;)

Mintflavour, there is a subtle difference between a good lookout before a practise manouvre and the execution of the real thing! Therefore lookout before a steep turn is good airmanship, a HASELL check is, as Beagle said... :mad:

[lady in red]

Agree with other posts that the HASELL is unnecessary before the steep turn, as it is essentially an avoidance manoeuvre. Also worth noting that in the eyes of an examiner, if a candidate loses 100 to 200 feet but retains basic control of the aircraft it is not a fail point. The important thing is control and avoiding the hazard. IMHO there is too much faffing about before getting on with a manoeuvre and far too little emphasis on lookout IN THE TURN!!

Also whilst we are at it, recovery from the spiral dive must be emphasised to be CLOSE THE THROTTLE- ROLL THE WINGS LEVEL, then PITCH UP to the horizon, only adding power once the airspeed reduces to cruise speed. Otherwise the height loss is excessive. Must avoid the "rolling pull" as the torsional load on the airframe is excessive and in a worst case scenario the wings could fall off. There seems to be little understanding of this in the basic instructor world...

[BEagle]

Quite right, lady in red!

Wasn't such a manoeuvre thought to have caused structural failure of a PA28R not that long ago?

In the PPL Skill Test, I brief the applicant that I will be taking control during a steep turn and when I hand control back to him/her, that he/she is to "Recover the aircraft to straight and level cruising flight without overstressing, exceeding Vne or overspeeding the engine!"

Someone wrote that there is no difference in technique between a 45 deg steep turn and a 60 deg steep turn. In my view there certainly is; if the aircraft is allowed to descend in a 60 deg steep turn, merely increasing the back pressure will probably not effect a recovery in something like a PA28. First relax the bank to 45 deg, then stop the dscent, then increase back to 60 deg. But that's an academic manoeuvre at PPL level - although a major starting point for max rate turn training in the military.

[WrongWayCorrigan]

Steep turn: exercise is one aspect of advanced turns.

Airmanship issue is look out look out. Throughout entire process to completion of exercise.

HASELL for stalls, MCA etc.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

All very confusing here.

A spiral dive recovery surely comes into the syllabus under 'Further Effects of Controls' and thus recovery should be taught very early on on the victim's learning curve.
The look out turn in HASELL, presumes a steep turn to clear below so how can you undertake a steep clearing turn before initiating a steep turn?
A 60 degree turn is, in part, an excercise to demonstrate to the student that, usually, the aircraft will need extra power to maintain altitude and that power needs to be reduced on exiting the turn. Ha! to trim or not to trim?
Steep turns are taught after solo consolidation. Students tend to become fixated on instruments in this excercise and usually do not maintain a good look out.
Anyway, I remember going up at Van Nuys in a Seneca 11. Asked to demonstrate a stall. Blithely told Viet Vet (circa 1976) instructor that I would now do my HASELL checks. His response:
'What the :mad: are they?' Entered stall. Citation zoomed underneath. Actually, I think that we were in controlled airspace!:O :ooh:
I reckon that lady in red is rather spot on.:ok:

[Flik Roll]

HASELL checks only mean more time with the head in the cockpit. Totally unnecessary for an evasive turn. So many civvies who are eyes in all the time. Proper lookout will suffice.
Agree with Beags

[Ex Oggie]

Surely the 60° turn is in the syllabus, so can be expected on test?

Certainly not 60° AoB turns in the NPPL syllabus, pretty sure not in the JAA also, but I don't have my manuals to hand.

Most GA a/c can't maintain that AoB anyway, due to a lack of power.

Best taught as a spiral dive recovery in EoC1, then on AirEx15, it can be a demo of an overbanking.

Just my humble opinion.

[BigEndBob]

Think it says somewhere at least 45 degree bank.
I've asked for 45 on test but also 60 just to see what happpens!

Most problems with steep turns is entry speed being too high leaving insufficient power to overcome drag...so we start going up...and down.
Interesting to see the technique shown on flight sim 2002 demo, think it shows a Cessna being slowed to 90kts , trimmed then manouvre completed.

Is this an FAA technique?

[Say again s l o w l y]

A steep turn is usually any that is over 45 AoB.

There are numerous reasons for the steep turn excercise. To teach max rate turns for collision avoidance but also to give the student an understanding of what the a/c is capable of whilst increasing their confidence and skills level.

HASELL before? Why? In the case of a real collision avoidance you are hardly going to start worrying about things like clear of cloud etc.

As for rolling and pulling whilst recovering from something like a spiral dive, anyone who does that needs a good session of aero's training and a book on aerodynamics and a/c structures.

Whats all the guff about finding yourself in a valley and needing to do a min radius turn? The best way is to slow up as much as possible, get the flaps out and then go round, rather than trying to do it at 120 kts.
What's wrong with a roll of the top anyway? Much safer!;)

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Down in deep darkest, in the Fish River canyon, we were taught to extricate ourselves using a stall turn.;)

[DFC]

The Stall recovery is taught so that pilots can recover with minimal height loss should they inadvertently stall the aircraft.

Basically an avoidance exercise.........so not one in need of HASELL checks because one is not going to do a hasell check before acidently stalling or getting abit too slow or pulling a bit to hard to get it onto the final approach centerline are we?

BEagle said it!

From as far back as I remember, before HASELL, we established in the training area and completed clearing checks before every exercise to ensure among other things that we were the only aircraft using that area and were not getting in anyones way and we had the appropriate airspace and aircraft configuration for the proposed exercise........great idea when one is going to play with the aircraft.

Where HASELL has gone wrong is that few pilots seem to properly understand exatly what they are checking. As an example - when doing 30 minutes of aeros, the fast jet that will hit you is some 210nm away when you start - are you going to see them during the clearing turn?

Regards,

DFC

[Send Clowns]

Never flown an aircraft that couldn't maintain 60° AOB, as far as I have pulled them, albeit with loss of speed! That's well beyond the 90° change of heading for an avoidance turn. Have pulled 90° level, briefly in many of them (not the Robin 400 :ooh: Wings might fall off)

[Lomcovack]

A hassell check is a bit of overkill for EX 15 Steep turns, but do a clearing turn before to look for conflicting traffic.

If you HAVE to use a steep turn for avoiding action thats another matter.

Going back to basics I always undrstood that EX15 was taught as a coordination excersize.

Aileron,rudder and elevator into the turn, adding power passing through 30 degress.

Gets the student working all thecontrols while keeping a lookout.

[BEagle]

A clearing turn before a turn? NONSENSE!!

Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself AND after recovery.

How much additional power to use in order to maintain IAS - and when to apply it - will be type-specific.

Military pilot students are required to be able to roll rapidly to well over 60 deg AoB, whilst simultaneously applying full power and pulling to the buffet nibble, maintaining level flight. This is VASTLY different to a simple 45 deg AoB steep turn......

[fireflybob]

At this rate we will be doing a clearing turn before doing the clearing turn before doing medium turn before doing a steep turn!!

Beagle, yet again, you beat me to it - well done!

If a medium turn is 30 degrees of bank then anything more than 30 degrees must be a steep turn perhaps?

I find a common student fault is looking into the turn whilst rolling in which means they are not checking the attitude during the entry. Correct technique is to do lookout first then, assuming clear, to look ahead and roll in. Then continue with lookout, attitude, instruments having established the turn.

[Lomcovack]

Well where do you start, First of all I am not training military pilots so I will stick with the syllabus for the civilian licences in particular JAR PPL.


Steep turns taken from from the JAR Notes for the guidance of applicants taking the PPL Skill test (Aeroplanes).

Steep turns (360 left and right – 45 bank) including recognition and recovery from a spiral dive.

Steep turn Demonstrate the correct lookout before and after turns

Establish and maintain throughout the turn the nominated altitude/level and speed

Co ordinate the entry to steep turns to achieve at least 45 bank and maintain the turn through at least 360 degrees

Coordinate the recovery from turns to straight and level as directed by the examiner without loss/gain of height.



Now we no what is required from the PPL on test, if you want a further breakdown with more detail Mr Campbell wrote a good book called the Flight instructors manual.

We are not talking about clearing turns or medium turns or Rate 1 turns we are talking Steep turns.

Now B Eagle summed it up when he wrote “ Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself and after recovery”

As we have established that a turn of 360 degrees will be required, meaning the aircraft will enter the airspace that was behind it after the prior to entry lookout.

Aah I hear you cry but if you are looking out during the turn you will always be looking at the airspace you are about to enter.

This is correct and needs to be carried out.

Now all training aircraft are different but most civil training schools use aircraft with very little rear vision.

0nce in the turn at 45 degrees especially in high wing aircraft there is very little vision in the direction of the turn.

If you can satisfy yourself that the airspace you are going to enter during steep turns is clear. Then a clearing turn would not be required, if you cannot and bearing in mind that at 100 kts 60 degrees bank angle you will be facing the otherway in less than 10 seconds (In which time you are also giving instruction), do one.

:ok: Bollocks it may be, but oneday it may save them.

[ODGUY]

HASEL before steep turns? maybe to keep things consistent with a new student (i.e. before upper airwork, HASEL check).

Look while you do the steep turn? student is too busy lining up the horizon and the bugs on the windshield. Add to that they're trying to figure out how much back pressure and power they need.

Clearing turn before you enter, sure why not. Makes the most sense.

p.s. Steep turns are not taught to be used in case of a midair. Those are called Collision Avoidance Maneuvers.

Transport Canada examiners are looking for a clearing turn before student enters steep turn. No HASEL needed.

[BEagle]

"HASEL before steep turns? maybe to keep things consistent with a new student (i.e. before upper airwork, HASEL check)."

Nonsense. All airmanship checks (e.g. HASELL checks) are carried out only when relevant. HASELL checks are NOT relevant for steep turns.

"Look while you do the steep turn? student is too busy lining up the horizon and the bugs on the windshield. Add to that they're trying to figure out how much back pressure and power they need."

Again, utter nonsense. Just teach PROPER lookout techniques prior to entry, during the steep turn itself and after recovery

"Clearing turn before you enter, sure why not. Makes the most sense."

No it doesn't. See my previous comment.

"p.s. Steep turns are not taught to be used in case of a midair. Those are called Collision Avoidance Maneuvers."

Not something we teach. Probably because we instill sufficient lookout skills to avoid the need for such manouevres in VMC.

"Transport Canada examiners are looking for a clearing turn before student enters steep turn. No HASEL needed."

Then they're utterly daft. Eh?

[Flik Roll]

Why are 60degree turns not covered? They are proper steep turns leading onto teaching max rate turns therefore avoidance turns. Why is this NOT covered in the PPL syllabus, seeing as the majority of studes love looking in the cockpit or chatting to PAX next to them...

[GusHoneybun]

Flik,

Nothing stopping you teaching to 60 degree AOB. In the test, the examiner only needs to see a steep turn of not less than 45 degrees.

If a stude could happily pull off a 80 degree turn without speed or height loss then I'm more than happy to issue the ticket.
Good practice for Air Racing where the checkout if memory serves is a minimum 70 degree AOB about turn with only 20ft of height gain/loss. Oh, and all at 300ft, lovely :\

[ODGUY]

BEagle;

Not something we teach. Probably because we instill sufficient lookout skills to avoid the need for such manouevres in VMC.

Everything to you is nonsense, so whatever I say will have the same fate Eh.

Not teaching Collision Avoidance Manoeuvres? Good on ya :ok:

Lucky students Eh, they have the laser vision that you have taught them Eh .

Do you also omit teaching Forced Approaches? From your Illlogic, you probably instil some divine intervention to never encounter it Eh. :yuk:

p.s. no need to talk your head off about the military, not impressed. This thread is talking about Ex.15 in the civilian flight training syllabus.

Some newbies come here to learn, we like to stress the importance of safety, not the cowboy attitude.

W@nker

[hugh flung_dung]

Sorry ODGUY, I agree with BEagle here (although admittedly his post came over as rather arrogant). To repeat my earlier contribution: "why do a clearing turn before a turn? It's v.important that studes eyes are outside and that he/she only glances in to check that they've selected and held the right attitude. However, the aim is to maintain altitude (and maintain IAS if possible) so some reference to instruments is required."

I teach them to look in the turn direction, then look over the nose as they roll in to 60 deg (power and pull as they pass 30 deg), hold the attitude, look into turn, check altimeter and VSI, adjust attitude if necessary, look into turn, etc, etc. That's also more-or-less what I want to see on a test - I'll accept a small altitude and speed deviation providing they are actively looking-out and were smooth.

A clearing turn before a turn ... a very strange idea that gives the wrong impression to the stude. The HASELL checks are for use before a height loss manouevre or aerobatics.

HFD

(BTW, you've got a very unflattering signature in that post ;) )

[ODGUY]

I was never taught, nor have I ever taught to do a HASEL before a steep turn. However, I never came out and called it nonsense. What I did was give a reason as to why someone may do it. I find it better than being arrogant.

While the student is busy scanning their instruments, and the horizon, their eyes are moving too fast to catch other traffic.

Remember, we're talking about ab-initio students, we're not talking about professional pilots.

With experience, the pilot won't need to concentrate so much on the said exercise, hence, able to do a 45+ turn and look for traffic.

:ok:

[BEagle]

"While the student is busy scanning their instruments, and the horizon, their eyes are moving too fast to catch other traffic.!

More nonsense. The litany is LOOKOUT - Attitude - Instruments. Make sure the students apply that - particularly the disciplined LOOKOUT technique - and curb any student attempt to spend too much time 'head-in'.

PS - Not sure why you felt the need to edit your earlier post in order to include such an aptly self-descriptive noun......?

[ODGUY]

"Maverick";

More nonsense. The litany is LOOKOUT - Attitude - Instruments. Make sure the students apply that - particularly the disciplined LOOKOUT technique - and curb any student attempt to spend too much time 'head-in'.

While the ab-initio student is conducting the lookout, what's happening with the nose as they roll through 30? How long does it take to conduct this disciplined lookout? Longer then let's say rolling from 0-30 bank? Lookout complete, the plane's nose is diving, instrument scan, confirm, spiral to the left, back to lookout, can't spend too much time in cockpit, lookout again, no traffic, but the green sure is getting closer....

I hope you teach spiral dive recovery before you send the poor souls on solo practice. Or better yet, i'm sure you teach steep turns so well, that no need to teach spiral dives. Heck, let's not teach spin recovery, you got one of them stall horns don't ya eh ;)

As for the editing, the option is there for a reason, however to satisfy you're question, ****** was censored :ok:

Tally ho

[BEagle]

1. Your skills at editing your earlier post are clearly on a par with your instructional skills...

2. "How long does it take to conduct this disciplined lookout? Longer then let's say rolling from 0-30 bank? Lookout complete, the plane's nose is diving, instrument scan, confirm, spiral to the left, back to lookout, can't spend too much time in cockpit, lookout again, no traffic, but the green sure is getting closer.... " What utter garbage! The lookout begins at the rearmost view the student can manage, continues along the horizon through the fore-and-aft to the opposite side, back as high as the student can see and ends looking at the visual attitude. The aircraft is then rolled smoothly and positively to a visually assessed 45 deg AoB, using sufficient rudder to maintain balance, sufficient back pressure and power to maintain level flight and cruise IAS. When the visually assessed 45 deg AoB is achieved, a brief confirmation is made with reference to the attitude indicator to confirm that the assessed 45 deg AoB has indeed been achieved. That is the 'entry' technique. The 'maintenance' technique is to LOOKOUT into the turn, back to the visual ATTITUDE to confirm that it hasn't changed, then a quick scan of the INSTRUMENTS (altimeter, ASI, ball) to confirm that the a/c is in level, balanced flight. This LOOKOUT, ATTITUDE, INSTRUMENTS sequence continues until rollout, which is effectively the reverse sequence to the entry until wings level when a LOOKOUT is condcted on the side away from the turn which has been 'blind' throughout the turn.

[hugh flung_dung]

BEagle,
'interesting that you didn't mention the VSI (although I didn't mention the ball so nobody's perfect :O). I've always felt that, for accurate steep turns, the VSI indicates what's about to happen whereas the altimeter indicates what HAS happened; therefore the VSI is at least as important as the altimeter.
... just an observation.

HFD

['I' in the sky]

Are HASELL checks not more correctly referred to as pre-stall or even more correctly pre-aerobatic checks ?

Never heard it referred to as a pre-upper airwork check.

[ODGUY]

HASEL checks are to be conducted before Slow Flight, Stalls, Spins, Spiral Dives, aerobatic work, etc. However, I do not come on here and tell people who do HASEL before steep turns that they are full of garbage. I leave that to bagle.

Bagle, good on ya. Your attitude is top notch (utter nonsene, garbage, rubage), you should be flying a space shuttle bloke! No cure for that blue blood syndrome EH!

over'n'out