Distance Learning ATPL Course without Groundschool?

[Morgo]

Can anyone recommend a distance learning course that doesn't include a compulsary ground school segment? I am keen to study for the ATPL exams from home however my current job makes it impossible to take the time off to attend a ground school.

I was keen on the Bristol Distance Learning package however it appears that attendance at four weeks of ground school is compulsary which unfortunately rules it out for me. A shame as it did seem that the studying materials were excellent.

[Whirlygig]

The CAA Licensing rules (see LASORS) mandates classroom learning. There are a certain number of study hours required and the only way the CAA can be sure this is achieved is by making groundschool compulsory. So all Distance Learning groundschool providers will operate the same way.

The only way around it would be to have ATPL exams from another state and convert but even, you would have to attend in another country!

Have you considered CPL exams - there are fewer and will therefore require less time off work?

Depends what you want the licence for? You may have to sacrifice some unpaid leave if ATPL is the only one you want to get.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Morgo]

Thanks for replying. Whilst I understand the CAAs view that they feel the best proof of hours studying is via a ground school it is immensely frustrating for those who don't have the time or financial resources to attend! I'm a bit gutted to read that there is a requirement to spend so much time in ground school (I could possibly manage 1-2 weeks, but definitely not 4!). My plan was to build hours and study for the ATPL exams whilst maintaining my full time job which covers my mortgage and partner's university fees. Ultimately I am aiming to get my frozen ATPL with a view to changing career to piloting. I doubt that in the current circumstance I could quit my job or take extra leave (charged at £200 a day by my employer!) to get me through the groundschool as this would leave me unable to fulfil my obligations. :{

[Whirlygig]

Sadly, Morgo your circumstances are not that different from many other people's.

I'm afraid you might need to do a bit more research as to the options available and how you aim to get there!

You may have to factor loss of earnings into the equation at some point - how will you do the commercial flying training - that, I believe has to be full-time. I'm sorry but I do not understand how an employer can charge YOU for time off? If that's what you lose as income, then that is part of the cost of getting what you want.

As I said CPL may be your route but it won't get you into the airlines as there are no Instrument Rating exams in the CPL. However, it would be sufficient if you plan to be an instructor.

What sort of job do you envisage getting as a pilot? Have you looked into the career openings 'cos, as I understand it, it ain't brilliant in the fixed world either.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Alex Whittingham]

The minimum required by the JAA is that 10% of the time should be spent in the classroom. For the ATPL that is 65 hours, about two weeks. Most FTOs don't think that is enough but, if you look around, you will find courses with three x one week attendance periods - I think London Guildhall do one - you could try that.

[fullrich]

Check your PM's

[Whispering Giant]

Morgo - The Cabair distance learning programme may fit your circumstances best - the way they do it is to break it down into 4 modules comprising of studying for a block 4 exams at a time.
You then spend a week at Cabair doing a brushup course before sitting the exam's you have studied for.
PM me if you want more details as this the course i did as i was in a similar position and managed to pass all with exception of 2 exams at the first attempt.

brgds
W.G

[Dynamic Apathy]

The requirement for groundschool does not specify that all groundschool must be completed in one block, and as Alex has said the requirement is for 65 hours, or 2 weeks total.

If you speak to a number of schools they might allow you to accrue groundschool time on individual days on a mutually convenient basis and to minimum hours. However the schools are not obliged to be so helpful as that so it must be a case of negotiation between you and the school.

Best of luck.

[Morgo]

Thanks for all the replies and PMs folks! I will certainly follow up on one or two of those leads, and the London Guildhall/Met course could be a go-er given that I work more or less next door to their City campus.

The £200 per day is what I have to pay to take leave over and above my given holidays. It is essentially the same as unpaid leave except I am limited to the number of days (5 I believe) I can actually pay for. Having any more days off is not possible, even as direct unpaid leave, due to the ethos of the bank I work for. Not a brilliant situation, but given the cost of training and the uncertainty of the airline job market I want to reduce the financial risk to as little as possible by working up until the utmost latest point!

I wasn't aware that the modular flight training had to be done full time as well. I will certainly need to do more research into my options. However, I think that getting my ATPL exams done and dusted over the next 18 months would be a suitable target to aim for whilst my girlfriend continues at uni. It's a shame that, apparantly, no schools offer weekend ground school! I would be willing to give up my weekends and accrue the necessary hours that way. I wonder how much demand there is for students for that?

[Send Clowns]

DA

Might be very difficult to negociate with schools like that. In fact by the rules it should be, as their course is approved as constituted, so they there is a limit o the changes that can be made.

Morgo

Unfortunately, due to the reasons detailed above, it might be difficult to run a weekend course under extant approvals. I doubt there would be enough take up to warrant any school trying it.

You should be able to do all flight training part time. Talk to the head of training at a school you are considering for this section.

[smith]

The Naples air center JAA groundschool is two modules of 7 with 2x1week brush up. Means flying to sunny FL for a week though. Damn!

[DickPilot]

I did my ground school at AFT. They only require 1 week of classroom attendance before each sitting (I did mine in two sittings i.e. only two weeks from work required).

CPL flying training though will take more week day time though. You may have to consider saving leave or taking unpaid.

[Grass strip basher]

I think there would be enourmous demand for a evening class/weekend classroom base course in the Central London area... there must be loads of people working in the city looking to get their ATPLs done but who struggle to get the time off work for a 2 week classroom stint followed by exams the week after (impossible for me).

I for one would pay a premium for being able to do classroom study on weekday evenings complemented with an occassional weekend.... unfortunately nobody has yet attempted to tap in to this potentially lucrative market.

I recon you could easily charge £10-15 a head for 2-3 hours of evening study on a weekday.... so with 10-15 students an instructor could make himself an easy c£150 for 2-3 hours work... not to be sniffed at!

Do the same for a Saturday or Sunday... say £40-50 for the day of say 7 hours classroom time and again with 10 -15 students you will be clearing c£500 for your troubles.

So any qualified ground school instructors associated with an approved school (London Met?) out there keen on making an extra £600 (gross) odd quid a week for one day at the weekend and one evening a week..... I'm sure we could get 10 people who work in the city that would be keen.
:E

GSB

[Morgo]

Naples is looking promising. I like their price and the fact my missus works for United means I can fly over for next to nothing.

However, I would raise my hand to GSB's suggestion and say that I would be one of these willing punters! :D

[khaosanroad]

Hello Morgo,

Although the JAR FCL regulations were supposed to bring common rules in Europe, the things seem quite different on the other side of the Channel (France). For the written ATPL we have 2 options:

- distance learning with no ground courses at all

- 100% ground courses, which means several months in a row in a school.

I chose option 1 to keep my job and revenues but the sacifice is huge, here his the life I had for 1 year or so:

- after 9 hours at the office you get home to work your atpl for 3 hours or so and then it's time to go to sleep

- you work more on saturday and sunday to catch up because 3 hours a day during the week is not enough compared to the 6 or 8 hours done by student in full time ground school.

- all your vacations are dedicated to your ATPL, especially the ones before the exams.

I saved time to do sport because I consider that health is essential to pilots but as far as social life is concerned it is a disaster. I had no girlfriend at this time and for those with wife and children it must be even harder.

In conclusion, the distance learning is intersesting for those who need to keep working but it works if you are very motivated, able to work on your own and preferably with a previous technical bacground. Not many people chose this option in France and the rate of failure is not zero. I was happy to pass all the 14 exams at first attempt, to move to the next step: the flying one.

For the flying courses it's a different story, I'm affraid it will be very difficult for you to do the CPL IR and MCC without leaving your job. In France if you have been working more than 2 years in a company, you are allowed to take a leave for a training and not only your wage is still paid by the government but they also give money for the training. After the training, your company is obliged to take you back. Personnally I left my company 5 months for the CPL, IR MCC, I was still paid and the social services paid me 10% of the training. Some people are granted much more: 100% of the training and sometimes even a type rating !!!

I don't know if such things exist in the UK, but for sure it is much easier to get a pilot job there than in France, especially when you are a low time CPL IR MCC without rating.

Best Regards to all of you and enjoy your flights.

B

[Morgo]

khaosanroad, excellent post informing us of the French system! I have been guilty in the past of indulging in some Brit-french banter, but the below almost makes me want to don a beret, wear some garlic and setup home in Provence :p ;) :}


In France if you have been working more than 2 years in a company, you are allowed to take a leave for a training and not only your wage is still paid by the government but they also give money for the training. After the training, your company is obliged to take you back. Personnally I left my company 5 months for the CPL, IR MCC, I was still paid and the social services paid me 10% of the training. Some people are granted much more: 100% of the training and sometimes even a type rating !!!

That's simply amazing and I am extremely jealous! I realise that I am going to have to quit my job at some point and with the loss of income and cost of training, I will be down at least 10K a month :uhoh:

[Grass strip basher]

No wonder the income tax rate is so high in France and they find it almost impossible to attract foreign direct investment...

hmmm now I wonder what response you would get if you suggested that to Gordon Brown?

Looks like the demand for London based evening classes is gathering pace.... 2 of us so far... get to 10-15 of us and we may as well approach one of the training organisations to see if they are interested... you never know unless you ask...:)