NPPL M rating

[straightfeed]

Heres a good one.
Just done my microlight differences training on my NPPL SSEA rating. So, I can fly a microlight (but can't go abroad!).
Now if I fancy paying the CAA (NPPL ltd) an extra £65 for a puka NPPL (M) licence I will have to fly a microlight GFT (as in NPPL/XC/REV06). Should I fail this test I can legally jump back in my microlight and fly on my SSEA microlight differences!-Is this mad or what?

Trying to come to terms with my new NPPL licence after years with an old CAA one I was idly looking thru AIC 3/2004, as you do. This "rolling revalidation" malarky is interesting.
I let my licence lapse a little so did a skill test.
Under 1.3.1 (b) my skill test validity will expire after one year. So, I must meet requirement 1.3.1.(a).
No probs, I've done at least 6 hours etc but cricky now need an "instructional flight" in last 24 months. But I've done a skill test and received no instruction, merely performed a test. In fact the instructor gave NO instruction at all.
So, do I now need an instructional flight?
Do you think any transitional arragements were ever tested on all this or for that matter did anyone actually read what is written?

Like an earlier post my CFI was also confused by the "date of test" signed by the CAA in my new NPPL as the date of issue. I performed no test on that date but could easily have blagged that I did.

[Whopity]

Well that sums up the NPPL, as an unmittigated beaurocratic disaster!

"Should I fail this test I can legally jump back in my microlight and fly on my SSEA microlight differences!-Is this mad or what?"

Not true if you fail any flight test you cannot exercise the privileges of the rating regardless of licence until you pass a test with an examiner. You will be given a F252 that goes to the CAA so they will know.

If you have just put a microlight rating on your NPPL then you have a puka NPPL(M) there is only one NPPL; SSEA and Microlight are just ratings in the same licence. I think you are getting confused with the old UK PPL Microlight that is no longer issued. Holders of that licence still revalidated on 5 hours in 13 months.

"So, do I now need an instructional flight?"

You will need an instructional flight within 24 months of your Skill Test if you wish the rating to remain valid. You can of course revalidate with another test thereby avoiding the instructional flight.

[straightfeed]

Well that sums up the NPPL, as an unmittigated beaurocratic disaster!

Agreed.

"Should I fail this test I can legally jump back in my microlight and fly on my SSEA microlight differences!-Is this mad or what?"

Not true if you fail any flight test you cannot exercise the privileges of the rating regardless of licence until you pass a test with an examiner. You will be given a F252 that goes to the CAA so they will know.

I may have failed a test but explain how the CAA can revoke the "differences training" which is all I require to fly a micro on my SSEA rated NPPL. Where is the rule that says that?

If you have just put a microlight rating on your NPPL then you have a puka NPPL(M) there is only one NPPL; SSEA and Microlight are just ratings in the same licence. I think you are getting confused with the old UK PPL Microlight that is no longer issued.

No I'm not. I'm aware that the old micro ppl has gone but now you can fly micros on an NPPL SSEA with differences training (see Lasors 2005 (C6.1)) OR on a separate NPPL (M).


You will need an instructional flight within 24 months of your Skill Test if you wish the rating to remain valid.

Do tell me where it says that.
AIC 1.3.1 (b) clearly says the skill test is good for 12 months without any flying at all.

1.3.1.(a) says 6 hrs flt time etc.......and have completed an instructional flight in the previous 24 months.

My point is- How can a skill test count for an instructional flight since NO instruction took place or have the CAA decided that a skill test counts as an instructional flight but have not told the public. Maybe you experts know where this is written down.

Thanks for taking up the thread.

[BEagle]

Most of the above is utter tosh.

The NPPL was well thought out by industry, but the CAA then cocked up the ANO totally with regard to the NPPL; they won't admit it publicly, but that is definitely the case - and we probably won't get it sorted out until next Spring. Not for want of trying, the CAA is totally to blame for the delay.

But we're working with them and with any luck things will become much easier for you to understand....

[jgs43]

Have to Agree with Beagle on this one.
I am amazed at the varying interpretations that pilots come up with in respect to both the NPPL and JAR revalidation and/or renewal requirements.
It would not be the first time that I have had to tell the holder of a JAR licence that the/she required a renewal test because their ratings had expired previous to their requesting that I revalidate (sign the rating page in their licence) their ratings by experience.
The different requirements for Microlight and SLMG as compared to the SSEA ratings within the NPPL are, as illustrated above, also subject to major misinterpretation.
May the amendment to the ANO be swift and painless!

[straightfeed]

Thanks for the replies. Shame you couldn't tell me the answers or offer a reference to the correct interpretation.

Should you not be conversant with the present CAA requirements or is that for mere mortals to sort out?

I'm not trying to get around any requirements, only trying to remain legal. Its not helped when the professionals describe it as tosh but fail to offer help. I'm also concerned that despite my best efforts I will lapse into some CAA illegal position not of my making.

That they can be interpreted as I have done says to me that either they dont read what they've written or they don't know how to explain what they want.

CAA have been about to sort this out for years. In the meantime I shall live with the "utter tosh" the CAA sprouts out until they change it.

[jgs43]

OK - here is my interpretation -

For the SSEA rating the skill test is only valid for 12 months hence "yes" you require to undertake a 1 hour minimum instructional flight. That flight will then be valid for the ensuing 24 months. Revalidation is rolling i.e. before every flight you must have completed 6 hours flying as detailed in Lasors within the 12 months preceding the date of the flight and have also undertaken a 1 hour instructional flight within the 24 months preceding that date.
The NPPL has several ratings including SSEA, SLMG and M. These may all be added to the NPPL by undertaking either differences training or a Skill test dependant upon the requirements as set out. You cannot obtain a seperate M licence as you already have both SSEA and M on your NPPL.

The revalidation requirements for the M rating are completely seperate from those for the SSEA rating. To revalidate the M rating you must complete 5 hours of flight time again as stipulated within lasors within 13months from your date of issue of the rating and get an examiner to sign your rating card or stamp your logbook to that effect prior to expiry of the 13 month period. This signature and flight experience is a requirement every 13 months - i.e. simliar to the old UK PPL prior to the change to JAR requirements.

The two ratings must therefore be maintained independantly of each other. It is this anomaly that will hopefully be corrected in the amendments to the ANO so that ratings may be revalidated based on total experience rather than experience within each rating type. Thus should be similer to the JAR requirements with a 24 month validity period with a fixed expiry date for all ratings and the requirement to have an examiner revalidate the ratings either on the basis of experience, etc or by revalidation test.

Perhaps Beagle may care to expand on this or note if I have also interpreted the wording incorrectly.

[BEagle]

straightfeed - you say you did a Skill Test. Presumably that was to renew your SSEA Rating? If so, your 'rolling validity' starts again on the date of that test; you demonstrated your proficiency to the FE during the Test and do not need a 'training flight' as well.

Regarding AIC 3/2004 paragraph 1.3.1, note the word either.....

In future, we anticipate:

1. Fixed, not rolling, validity periods.

2. You will need a SSEA Rating to fly a SSEA; Microlight Rating to fly a Microlight, SLMG Rating to fly a SLMG. Actually, that was the intention all along except that the CAA cocked it up. I would suggest that you consider having a seperate Microlight Rating in anticipation of this change. SSEA Rating holders will not be able to exercise their licence priviliges on Microlight Class aeroplanes unless they have a Microlight Rating as well.

3. If you have more than one Rating, you will be able to revalidate both (or all) Ratings with a minimum number of hours, so long as you do a minimum (to be confirmed) number of hours on each Class for which you hold a Rating. This will not apply to those who hold a NPPL with SSEA Rating and an old-style Microlight or SLMG PPL. To take advantage of the 'combined hours' chnage, the Ratings will all have to be on a NPPL.

4. The 1 hour training flight will change to "an hour of flight training", so that it can be accumulated on more than one flight. You will also be able to choose not to do any training flying at all; however, you would then be restricted to single seat aircraft only.

5. Any Skill Test or Proficiency Check will count in lieu of the training flying.

However, it 'll be at least next Spring before any such changes come into effect.

[straightfeed]

Thanks Guys, great help.
I'll get an instructional flight done 1 year after my recent skill test as jgs suggests.
Is it not weird that a skill test is valid for one year and an instructional flight for 2 years? Strange! JGS did say he might have interpreted it incorrectly though. See what I mean. It ain't just me!!

BEagle-its nice to see what is intended in the future. Do AOPA, PFA,BMAA get to proof read the rules before publication? Lets hope the lawmakers can interpret it correctly.

I can see one problem though. There will be a whole load of peeps flying micros on their SSEA rating with differences training who will scream "grandfather rights".The BMAA will if they don't. I can't see them lining up to take a GFT on a micro after having flown them legally for years then pay £65 to get an "M" rating added. Rather my little point in the first place.

Anyway, if you have an input into sorting this mess out-thanks. It'll be appreciated.

[BEagle]

Yes, the CAA has indeed been keeping us in the loop regarding draft ANO changes. I give them the odd bit of chivvying along if things go quiet and we have a good working relationship with them which is light years away from the old 'us' and 'them' industry attitudes.

I will certainly raise the question with the BMAA of 'grandfather' rights for NPPL SSEA Rating holders who have completed Microlight differences training and are now flying Microlights on their SSEA rating as a consequence. It would probably add strength to the arguments if such folk have completed both the '5 in 13' Microlight revalidation experience AND the rolling SSEA experience requirements when the new system begins.

[Whopity]

"I may have failed a test but explain how the CAA can revoke the "differences training" which is all I require to fly a micro on my SSEA rated NPPL. Where is the rule that says that?"

ANO Article 26:

26 (1) A person who, on the last occasion when he took a test for the purposes of articles 23, 24 or 25, failed that test shall not be enttled to fly in the capacity for which that test would have qualified him had he passed it.

This is clearly stated on the reverse of F252 Notice of Failure; issued by the examiner to any person who fails a flight test.

[straightfeed]

I'm not convinced they (the CAA) have clearly covered such a case.

If you fail a GST for a NPPL M rating that surely is the capacity you are now exempt from holding.

Are you saying that now exempts you from exercising your differences training covering Micros on an SSEA?

Differences training is training not a "capacity"you are holding.

By the same reasoning they should then pull your SSEA rating covering micros. Don't think so.

[J.A.F.O.]

To backtrack, ever so slightly, I believe that the wording is "one hour with an instructor" and not "one hour instructional flight". At least until Beags' changes make their way through.