What can 60k buy you?

[fray bentos pielot]

I currently have a PPL and about 135 hours TT. Therefore have always been considering modular training. However it seems to me that the way to get an airline job with low hours is to go integrated.

So do I spend 60k at FTE or about 40k doing my CPL/IR MCC? Bearing in mind that spare 20k would buy a type rating on an A320 or B737.

In my opinion you’re paying £20,000 to make yourself known, but is that investment worth it?

OAT’s APP course costing around £57,000 for example; 70 hrs Warrior, 31 hrs Arrow, 38 hrs Seneca, 40 hrs fnpt(II), 40 hrs 737 sim and full time ground school could be done for a little over £42,000 in my opinion. So what’s the other £15,000 for exactly?

Am I missing something? Am I way out with my hourly price estimates? Maybe I’m just being too critical. We should all stop training for about 12 months until the airlines realise quite how good they’ve got it and think bugger, we’d best pay for some pilots again.

Any comments? .......

[GusHoneybun]

However it seems to me that the way to get an airline job with low hours is to go integrated.

complete toilet. it's this kind of papp that integrated schools churn out to justify the inflated cost of training.

in your situation, i wouldn't think about intergrated as you can train up to frozen atpl level for about £25000 if you go modular and as a result save yourself a small fortune.

[Craggenmore]

Go modular.

Spend the savings on a chauffer driver Bentley, drive around the country taking all the Chief Pilots out for lavish lunches.

You'll never be forgotten and will be miles ahead of anyone else in the recruitment queue...!

:D :p :p :p

[fray bentos pielot]

Quote: "it's this kind of papp that integrated schools churn out to justify the inflated cost of training"

So you agree that integrated courses are well over priced for what you're getting?

I see a great deal of sense in what you both have said. I could do a 100 multi hours extra for the price of an integrated course!

Or i could attach £100 cheques to every CV i send out!!!

[metar]

My modular training cost a little under £30k including all the CAA bits and no fails... I'm really not convinced it can be done much cheaper!! I even had a share in a C152 for hours building which saved a fortune!

So what can £60k by you... modular training (plus a type rating if you decide that's what you want) or more sensibly a nice sports car to get you the airport every morning - Porsche Boxter or Honda S2000 would do me nicely.

Oh, if you get the Honda you will save enough to also get a Breitling!

[Craggenmore]

p.s.] the 04 plate Honda S2000 that I sometimes drive, although very quick, is a twitchy little number and does not inspire confidence in anything other than super dry conditions.

It reminds me of the old BMW 325i Sport...all of a sudden you're facing the wrong way going backwards through the hedge!

Everything was fine up to that point!

:p

[fray bentos pielot]

Modular definantly makes financail sense as I have also managed to get some cheap hour building. I've also done an IMC and night rating and up to this point have probably spent less than 10k.

I could do a combined MEP CPL/IR MCC and JOT at Jerez for about £25,000 including accomodation. If i include the cost of CAA fees my fATPL would probably cost me in the region of 40k.

I personally feel doing structured hour building including good nav exercises, and a combined CPL IR is as good as going integrated. And if you end up instructing it will probably make you a much better pilot than any integrated student.

[metar]

Ah yes Craggenmore, but the Honda DOES put a smile on the face!

[fray bentos pielot]

Last time i checked this was PPRUNE, Proffesional Pilots Rumour Network, not topgearchat.com.

I realise a lot of crap is talked about on here as everyone knows everything and is better than everyone else but at least keep the crap about aviation.

[DVR6K]

Wow, I never tire of these integrated v modular chats.

As per my usual response to the debates that rage on and on and on and on on Pprune, if it suits you to go integrated, go integrated, if it suits you more to go modular, go modular. It will probably not mean a rat's arse when it comes to job hunting.

As for paying for a type rating up front?? Well, if you pay for an A320 rating, you then are out of the loop for anyone who operates a 737, so why not apply, wait, and then see who takes you on and what type rating they want you to pay for if you are budgeting for the funds anyway??

Sorry, was this post about cars?

[Craggenmore]

metar,

you are of course correct, usually just before 9000 revs! :p

fray pielot - last time I checked, this forum was to help people like you who are starting out by people like me who have done it. Your post was entitled what can you get for £60k and it was suggested that you can go modular PLUS have enough cash left over to buy yourself a nice shiny car to get you to the airport...so its very much on topic. It was posted to demonstrate just how much money can be saved.

A touch of relevant banter and humour never hurts, this you will realise when you start flying.

[metar]

I concur - we're just trying to help!

[fray bentos pielot]

The advice is much welcomed. And i appreciate the point about being able to save enough money to buy a very nice S2000 or a poor mans Porsche.

As much as i'd like an S2000 i think the money might be better spent paying for a type rating, or on a letter from an integrated FTO!

With a lot of hard work and even more luck hopefully someday i'll be driving round in a GT2.

[scameron77]

I thought it was only my lawyer that charged 20 grand for a letter :cool:

If you are happy to pay for the integrated option which will inevitably pay a marketing director, sales director, financial director, etc. salary and also get another load of shiny new sales material such as keyrings and brochures then crack on, personally I'd rather spend my wonga on cheap women and 100LL.

Stephen

[Frank Furillo]

fray bentos pielot how can a £38000 sports car be a "poor mans Porsche"?????? I wish I owned one.
For the record a poor mans Porsche is a old 944 or evan a 928 both of which are rather cheap, ive had one or two myself.
Yes owning a Boxter might be seen as a "I cannot afford a 911" but if you have that sort of money to throw around you could have a M3 (maybe a poor mans BMW M5) or a SLK (a poor mans SL).
Me I will be buying myself a rather nice Boxter when I do get a job and yes I would rather have a 911 but the wife wants a car as well. Just my two pence worth. Oh and by the way to return to aviation, I went Modular and have had no problems and now within a whisker of getting the IR done.
FF

[fray bentos pielot]

Frank Furillo, first of all best of luck with the IR and with getting a job. Secondly, the main reason i wouldn't consider buying a Boxter is simply cause of what else you could buy for the money. That and not wanted to own a hair dressers car!

Anyway i said i didn't want this to become topgearchat.com so i'd best leave it there.

I'm still interesting in hearing from low hour modular guys who have interviews or even jobs (although the guys with jobs probably don't waste there time on here anymore) to see how easy/hard it was to get into the right hand seat.

[Frank Furillo]

Hairdressers car???? hmmmmm. Having sold cars for nearly 20 years before being able to start this, I must admit I have never seen that many hairdressers owning a Porsche Boxter, Audi TT or even a Mercedes Benz SLK. Most hairdressers I know have Peugeot 206CC or 307CC, Reunalt Megane Conv, Mazda MX-5 or evan Vauxhall Tigra Conv. Right I'm all done as well

"swiss" Frank

[fray bentos pielot]

Okay then, girls cars. With the possibly exception of the SLK. But the Boxter and the TT are defo girls cars, my sister loves them. But i agree with you that the 206CC etc are aweful cars built for women and hair dressers with no money and less taste.

Anyone wanting to talk about aviation don't let this little rant put you off.....

[Farrell]

Get the head down and get yer IR finished Si, and stop screwing around on here......best of luck to you!

"I AM NOT A GRASSCUTTER!!"

[VFE]

I think the decision whether to go integrated or modular should be a lifestyle decision. If you are an independant kind of guy then being penned up at an integrated school will do your head in. If you prefer to be treated as a customer and have more control over your training & life in general then choose modular.

*Some* students who excel at integrated schools are sometimes recommended to airlines depending upon demand but to choose integrated on the off-chance you'll excel and be graduating just when an airline knocks on the school's door is rather over optimistic.

VFE.

[BEagle]

Now look 'ere - SLKs are emphatically NOT hairdressers' cars! I've owned a 03 plate SLK320 for 7 months and traded it in today for a very low mileage 03 plate SLK32 AMG with designo interior - and 354 BHP, of course. 0 to 60 in about 4.8 seconds, according to one review....

Errm, is that a hairdressers car with added blow dryer? And the interior is bordeaux. That's a sort of red wine colour - do NOT call it pink!

Very best of luck with the IR - and the modular vs integrated argument is a fascinating one. Ready-moulded integrated student or hard-working modular student with added lfe experience skills?

[Fretwanger]

all this talk about flash cars, tut tut tut spend about 6k and get a lancia delta integrale with 4.7mm tires. take it offroad and slaughter anything... keep it on road and slaughter anything, but then again i've wanted one since i was a kid :)... either that or a ferrari testarossa *drools*

good luck with it all, hard options, luckily enough you have options, for me i dont, its modular or nothing. but evewn if i could get a 60k loan, I wouldnt, simply because of the payments.

If you've got the cash there you can do whatever you like, bearing in mind BEagle has just said.

the AMG SLKs are the balls, wow they've got so much power.

Sulks with his 1.2 SX Punto!!! :)

[fray bentos pielot]

The SLK is a nice car and would not fall under the hair dresser category. The new SLK 550 must be amazing.

As you say Fretwanger I am extremely lucky even to have to choice but 60k is a lot of money and the repayments will be massive.

It’s a shame it’s so hard to get an honest answer from the airlines. Any I have contacted simply say come back when you’ve got your licences. A survey needs to be carried out looking at employment over a 12 month period for example. I would love to know out of all the low hour pilots (500 TT or less) who were employed in 2004/05 how many were integrated and how many were modular.

[Simon853]

£60k would buy you the dream holiday of a lifetime. Alternatively you could spend it on aviation training and possible never be able to afford to take a single holiday ever again... ;)

Si

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

GO modular save maybe £15k. With this £15k you could afford the Emerald HS748 deal and get you backside in a heavy TP quickly. Or do a FI rating and find a job no problem as the instructor shortage develops. Or put the money towards the Ryanair or easyJet self sponsored type ratings.

All of which options are going to progress your career a damn sight more certainly and faster than having the "cachet" of putting one of the three large FTO's on your mighty 194hr TT CV.

Frankly.

You'll also stand a better chance of completing your training on time and feel less frustrated as you do so.

Cheers

WWW

[VFE]

Good options highlight by WWW there but don't forget that the type rated jobs are still subject to availability and suitability! They are still very difficult to get! So there really isn't such a phenomenon as "getting your backside into a heavy TP quickly" because you'll still be up against hundreds of others.

VFE.

[silverknapper]

Agree with WWW. With your experience I can't believe you're even thinking about it. You will be all done and dusted in as little as 7 months, and with change from £23k if you are careful. Go integrated and you'll blow a fortune, take longer, have the same licence with less hours and no better chance of a job.

[window-seat]

944, a poor mans porsche???

Well, they may be cheap nowadays, but give me a 944 turbo (which cost more than the 911 carrera when new) over a boxster any day off the week. Twice the car, half the money and Zero depreciation........oh and you can get the golf clubs in the back!!:p

Back to the subject however, if your in a rush to get qualified and can afford it, go integrated (the only downside is the cost)! But if time is on your side, and you want to save a few quid, then go modular!!! Same licence at the end of the day, simple as that!!

Good Luck

W-S:cool:

[BEagle]

Certainly the Porker 944 has a 'classic' look to it. Particularly in Guards Red.

But there is, regrettably, still a stigma of yuppiedom and Thatcher greed about the marque, particularly the 911. As there is with all BMWs - and some big Merc saloons.

Only another 3 days until I collect my SLK 32 AMG! Which is NOT a girlie car, I hasten to add!

[fray bentos pielot]

Quote, "window-seat - if your in a rush to get qualified and can afford it, go integrated (the only downside is the cost)! But if time is on your side, and you want to save a few quid, then go modular!!! Same licence at the end of the day"
Integrated is going to take me about 15 months, modular about 10. It is as you say the same licence at the end of the day.

I just want to do what is going to get me a job. Sadly i know too many good pilots who are searching for jobs after going modular. I'd love to instruct short term but it just isn't an affordable option long term therefore i've got to give myself the best chance of getting into the right hand seat of something heavy enough to unfreeze my ATPL, and more importantly keep a roof over my head.

[window-seat]

fray bentos pielot,

When I say that an integrated course is likely to be quicker than a modular one, I mean when starting from scratch.

I cannot see how things can be done much quicker than eating, drinking and sleeping flight training for 5 or 6 days, week in and week out, for months on end.....i.e. an integrated course. Yes I know these large schools suffer from too many students, and too few aircraft (working ones) and instructors, and that the excuse's (and accommodation bills) will stack up........but i'm afraid, that tends to be aviation in general, especially when trying to go flying in this fantastic English weather!!:sad:

I know you already have a PPL and some hours, so maybe going integrated would hold you up by 5 or 6 months (and cost you a lot of extra cash)!!!

As for the instructing, I used it (after an integrated course) as a way of keeping current and making contacts. I had an office job for 4 days per week which paid quite well, and did an instructors course over 12 months, flying just 2 days per week (weather dependent)!! At the end of that, I walked into a part-time instructors job, again flying only 2 or 3 times per week whilst working in the office:{

Nobody sad it was going to be easy (or cheap), and if you head off down this very long and bumpy road, then you must do whatever is best for you. As my mate VFE has already said, going Integrated or Modular is a lifestyle thing, what suites one person may not be for the next!! Same licence at the end of the day!

I know you want to find the easiest way into the RHS of something big and shiney, but I'm not sure there is one. All you can do is maximise your chances..........

Good Luck and enjoy your flying, wherever you do it:ok:

W-S

[broottmeenoo]

Go modular, do it as cheap as you can
Forget about driving a porshe or BM, I can't find a better way of operating an engine than on a flying machine, ultralight to A320.
When you will get all your licences, that will be the start of your expenses.
Then you will think about a type rating, an FI rating, buying sim time to maintain your skills, buying tickets to meet chief pilots, believe me the cost for the CPL-IR-MCC is just an appetizer.

[fray bentos pielot]

OAT are advertising a "professional pilot pakage" consisiting of a CPL - MEP - IR - MCC - JOC for £22,595. I assume this does not include test fees and CAA fees but does anyone know if it includes VAT?

I know the sensible answer would be to phone them and ask and believe me i've tried but in true Oxford style nobody has bothered to phone me back. When i phoned i clearly made the mistake of not offering them about 70k for an integrated course.

I would be very interested in hearing from anyone doing modular training at OAT. Are modular guys treated like second class citizens? I could do the same at FTE including accomodation for around 24k and again would love to hear from anyone training there.