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Turbo Beaver
30th Jul 2005, 09:28
Cathay Pacific flight attendants seek court ruling on `fatigue' regulations The Director General of Civil Aviation increased the potential for cabin crew fatigue and endangered the flying public and attendants when he flouted legally binding regulations to approve new Cathay Pacific schemes which reduce minimum flight rest, or "bunk time,'' the High Court heard Thursday.

In what is being framed as a battle between the interests of Cathay Pacific Airways and those of its flight attendants, the Cathay Pacific Flight Attendants Union is seeking to overturn the decision to approve a new Flight Time Limitation Scheme regarding minimum "bunk rest.''

Counsel representing the flight attendants in the judicial review, John Scott SC, said the more bunk time that is granted to the crew, the more flight attendants Cathay Pacific would have to put on duty. But, with fewer flight attendants on duty as well as less bunk time, the greater the potential for fatigue - defined as when ``operational capabilities are impaired.''

The bunk time reductions are ``particularly acute,'' said Scott, since they come at a time when Cathay recently introduced non-stop flights to New York, which take about 17 hours, and is also about to introduce three daily non-stop flights to Los Angeles. There are also plans to fly more frequently to San Francisco, said Scott.

All these journeys ``test the limits of the range for the aircraft and, as a result, test the limits of the endurance of the crew,'' he said.

Scott submits that the director general contravened a legally binding Hong Kong Civil Aviation Document, CAD 371, which is described as ensuring ``the avoidance of fatigue in aircrew.''

The Flight Attendants Union was alerted to the fact that Cathay Pacific intended to alter the inflight rest schedule in June last year, and appealed to the Civil Aviation Department, which originally said it need not approve the Cathay amendments.

The director general approved the new scheme, effective from January, ``despite the concerns of the cabin crew concerning fatigue and the safety of their members.'' It also contravenes the provisions of a legally binding aviation document, submits Scott.

For a 19-hour flight, cabin crew rest time has been reduced from a minimum of six hours to 4½ hours, according to a table submitted to the court. Scott pointed out that the lawyers for the director general and Cathay Pacific argue that the CAD 371 document is ``by way of guidelines'' and merely represents ``the manner in which the director general wants to see the scheme operate.''

``In effect, they are saying `none of your business' ... these are remarkable words to have submitted to court in this day and age,'' Scott said. ``These are retrograde steps to the dark days [before the parameters for a judicial review were widened].''

He added that it even goes further than most legislation to clearly specify ``provisions that are mandatory, and those that are discretionary.''

Chairwoman of the Cathay Pacific Flight Attendants Union, Becky Kwan, has claimed the effect of the amended scheme means that, on flights of more than 14 hours, cabin crew members will have to work two extra hours per hour of rest, compared to the previous extra hour per two hours rest.

The hearing continues today before Justice Michael Hartmann.

Left Wing
31st Jul 2005, 06:59
Has the managment thought that more crew will result in better service & satisfaction to the pax.
10 crew on a 340 to LAX is just unfair.:mad:

Let alone the saftey issue of fatigued crew

FlexibleResponse
31st Jul 2005, 13:34
How come the cabin crew have a stronger and more effective Union than us?

For a bunch of supposedly highly intelligent people we don't seem to even be able to hold a candle to the strength and integrity of these girls.

dartman
3rd Aug 2005, 02:55
not that we should we seen to be in lock step with them, but as an operator operating a similar stage length, how does this compare with the regulations SQ follows on the SIN-LAX flight?

cpdude
3rd Aug 2005, 04:44
FR,

Stronger…possibly, more effective...probably not. They are just going through the "attack" phase that the AOA did with N.D. at the helm. It will be destructive to the airline and to the FAU.:*

TB,

You appear to love this kind of crap. You must be a CPU member!:yuk:

Turbo Beaver
3rd Aug 2005, 06:39
Ignore everything. Hope it will go away. It will only get better. CX has our better interests at heart.

Cathay would never attack their Pilots or Cabin Crew. I guess ‘93 or ‘99 didn’t happen.

If anyone has a different opinion than yourself, must be the enemy or more dissatisfactory, belong to the CPU.

Can you articulate that the Civil Aviation Authority of Hong Kong is not in the back pocket of business? Ask your Dragonair friends how KA management are interpreting the FTL’s., if you have any. The CAD sees no evil.

Happen to be in RJFF lately? Haven’t heard from you for a couple of days.

FlexibleResponse
3rd Aug 2005, 13:13
Cpdude Stronger…possibly, more effective...probably not. They are just going through the "attack" phase that the AOA did with N.D. at the helm. It will be destructive to the airline and to the FAU.Some newbie’s may not remember that the cabin crew went on strike for about 18 days in the early ‘90s. In the end CX management totally capitulated and the girls got everything they asked for and more.

More recently the FAU won Court action to force CX management to reimburse back pay for their members dating back to about 1998.

They are now taking on CX/CAD over implementation of the laws of Hong Kong concerning fatigue limitations for Aircrew which one might rightfully believe is an area where a Pilots Union should take the lead.

You have every right to feel embarrassed.

Left Wing
3rd Aug 2005, 16:20
The Pilots Union must take lead in this issue! Look at the Air France case the other day;

You really think the dead tired cx cabin crew who is still walking about the cabin as gears come down could have reacted the same way.

Why dont the two unions "attack" at the same time, say may be during chinese new yr?

Surely the managment will wake up.

cpdude
3rd Aug 2005, 18:43
TB,

No, it won't go away and it won't get better. Conditions will deteriorate over time as our "white collar" jobs turn "blue". Thank low-cost carriers and a general public that expects seat sales and continued low prices. Saying that, I totally support responsible and professional style negotiations to soften the changes without the rhetoric or the will to damage or destroy the company's reputation and or economics.

Take a look at the name calling coming from the FAU and CPU in the past. It is unprofessional and irresponsible...IMHO!

Do you honestly believe the company could be,
A) profitable, and
B) fund expansion
if the COS of pre-93 was in place?:rolleyes:

Lastly and this is not only directed to TB,

When will people learn that the Pilots either in the CPU, AOA, ASL or unrepresented do not have the same bargaining powers as those represented by the FAU. The FA's have the support of the local people/government and media where the media stated "over-paid" expat pilots do not. Popular opinion will always go against us during any action that hurts local jobs and/or the people of Hong Kong.

Turbo Beaver
4th Aug 2005, 02:47
Low cost carriers are not the only thing driving down our conditions. For that you have to look within. I’m all right jack syndrome has set very nicely at Cathay.

“Responsible and professional style negotiations”, can you remind me “sign or be fired”, which one is responsible and which is professional? It’s so confusing.

I agree, name calling is unprofessional, but was she lying? That black kettle thing.

Making billions HK$ a year and we have post ‘97 medical conditions. If a wife or child was in an accident, they have to pay hospital fees if it is over a pre-set amount. (Look into this for you new joiners) Obviously you are not affected. I realise we could have never been able to fund expansion or be profitable if that didn’t happen. I can go on if you like?

Eddington already stated “the men in grey suits did not have a chance against pretty girls in red skirts” or something to that effect. Public perception, who cares. Were the aircraft flying? Of course they were, with the help of the pilots, when they got enough cabin crew onboard. After several weeks it was cheaper to hire the 3 C/A back.

It doesn’t matter what part of the world you are in, the public think pilots are overpaid and under worked until things go terribly wrong. Then they want Superman. That stigma will never change. Again, public perception.

I hope the FAU win, maybe Cathay will then sit down and have a “Responsible and professional style negotiations”

Ever think that the threat of court action may stop or slow down CX actions or make the CAD pay more attention.

cpdude
5th Aug 2005, 03:37
TB,

I actually agreed with most of what you said in your last reply. As for the "sign or be fired", it was wrong and that kind of interaction has to stop. But, if I spit on you are you going to spit on me? Somebody has to eventually take the high road.;)

Turbo Beaver
5th Aug 2005, 22:57
I doubt CX will ever take the high road. IMHO. It is not their way of thinking.

If that were the case, they would have taken back the 49ers that applied for their job back, not just a token few.