Deliberate midair - possible?

[LovelyCJ]

Hello All,

A dirty terrible thought has been causing us trouble here.

In light of the terrible events in London on the 7th July we were wondering. Could one of these mad men bring down an airliner using a light aircraft in a deliberate midair.

Let me paint a picture.

Our Mr Mad who is a full/partial PPL rents a light aircraft from the flying club. Picks a day when LHR are on the 27's and loiters just outside the eastern edge of the TMA. Waits for a packed 747 to get dirty and slow and then follows him down the ILS to a deliberate midair. He has the possibility to bring down a packed 747 over central/west London. Would involve a terrible loss of life both on the aircraft and on the ground so, I guess, right up Mr Mads street.

Is it possible? Also on a more productive note what would you do if you saw one creeping up on the TCAS? Whats the best course of action...

Its a grim one but worth thinking about.

:uhoh:

[+'ve ROC]

I don't know many lights that would be able to 'chase' a dirty 747 down the ILS!

[LovelyCJ]

Well a few twins could, plus some "exotics" like Jet Provosts, Hunters blah blah blah or maybe Mr Mad tries for a head on...

[arewenearlythereyet?]

Where do some of these people get their ideas from? Have you any idea how difficult it would be to try and "chase", never mind just try and intercept on a collision course with a jet? A PPL with no interception/formation flying experience trying to creep up on a heavy jet.

Too much hollywood mate. Next you'll have a Bruce Willis running across a major airport trying to stop a jet flying into the ground because the nutters have 'moved' the Glideslope back a thousand feet from the runway. :rolleyes: :yuk:

[LovelyCJ]

Also fail to see why this has been moved from its original home. The brief states "Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots"

:confused:

He won\'t be hard to chase at all - he\'ll be on the ILS. He\'ll even help you out with handy radio calls...

Don\'t think you can be so dismissive. You could have said the same things about 9/11 before it happened - that also would have sounded pretty "Hollywood"..

[LovelyCJ]

FACT:-

25 September 1978; Pacific Southwest 727-200; San Diego, CA: The aircraft had a midair collision with a single engine Cessna and crashed. All seven crew members, all 128 passengers, both occupants of the second aircraft, and 13 others on the ground were killed.

OK, so if it can happen by accident then it can happen deliberately...

I was trying to think of a plan of action to avoid rather than have to defend if its possible or not...



:confused:

[silverhawk]

Doesn't need an aircraft to perform an intercept.

Just put a MR MAD in one of the driving seats of something big arriving at a major airport.

' He seemed like a perfectly normal guy, not extremist in any way. The family can't believe he has done something like this it's so out of character.'

Sound familiar?

[Leftit2L8]

Don't let that lunatic US senator know your views. He'll be be campaigning for air to air missiles and canons next.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Speaking as an ex-Heathrow controller I would say most definitely "yes" it would be perfectly possible. And I don't think there can be any "plan of action" to avoid such an event. We just have to hope and pray that it never happens..

[HotDog]

Totally different scenario Lovely.

08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic twelve o'clock, one mile northbound.
08.59:35 PSA RT 1 We're looking.
08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, additional traffic's, ah, twelve o'clock, three miles just north of the field northwest bound, a Cessna one seventy-two climbing VFR out of one thousand four hundred.
08:59:50 PSA RT 2 Okay, we've got that other twelve.
08.59:57 APP Cessna seven seven one one golf, San Diego departure radar contact, maintain VFR conditions at or below three thousand five hundred, fly heading zero seven zero, vector final approach course.
09.00:16 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic's at twelve o'clock, three miles out of one thousand seven hundred.
09.00:21 CAM 2 Got'em.
09.00:22 PSA RT 1 Traffic in sight.
09.00:23 APP Okay, sir, maintain visual separation, contact Lindbergh tower one three three point three, have a nice day now.
09.00:28 PSA RT 1 Okay.
09.00:34 PSA RT 1 Lindbergh PSA one eighty-two downwind.
09.00:38 TWR PSA one eighty-two, Lindbergh tower, ah, traffic twelve o'clock one mile a Cessna.
09.00:41 CAM-2 Flaps five.
09.00:43 CAM 1 Is that the one we're looking at.
09.00:43 CAM 2 Yeah, but I don't see him now.
09.00:44 PSA RT 1 Okay, we had it there a minute ago.
09.00:47 TWR One eighty-two, roger.
09.00:50 PSA RT 1 I think he's passed off to our right.
09.00:51 TWR Yeah.
09.00:52 CAM 1 He was right over here a minute ago.
09.00:53 TWR How far are you going to take your downwind one eighty-two, company traffic is waiting for departure.
09.00:57 PSA RT 1 Ah probably about three to four miles.
09.00:59 TWR Okay.
09.01:07 TWR PSA one eighty-two, cleared to land.
09.01:08 PSA RT 1 One eighty-two's cleared to land.
09.01:11 CAM 2 Are we clear of that Cessna?
09.01:13 CAM- Suppose to be.
09.01:14 CAM 1 I guess.
09.01:20 CAM 4 I hope.
09.01:21 CAM-1 Oh yeah, before we turned downwind, I saw him about one o'clock, probably behind us now.
09.01:38 CAM-2 There's one underneath.
09.01:39 CAM 2 I was looking at that inbound there.
09.01:45 CAM 1 Whoop!
09.01:46 CAM 2 Aghhh!
09.01:47 CAM Sound of impact
09.01:48 CAM 1 Oh ****!
09.01:49 CAM-1 Easy baby, easy baby.
09.01:51 CAM [sound of electrical system reactivation tone on CVR, system off less than one second]
09.01:51 CAM-1 What have we got here?
09.01:52 CAM-2 It's bad.
09.01:53 CAM-2 We're hit man, we are hit.
09.01:56 RDO-1 Tower, we're going down, this is PSA.
09.01:57 TWR Okay, we'll call the equipment for you.
09.01:58 CAM [sound of stall warning]
CAM 1 This is it baby!
CAM ? Bob [name of F/O]
CAM 1 Brace yourself.
CAM ? Hey baby..
CAM? Ma I love you..
09.02:04 [End of recording]

You have been watching too much Hollywood.

[LovelyCJ]

HotDog - Is that the CVR transcript of the incident? I'm a little lost. You accuse me of watching too many Hollywood blockbusters yet attach a CVR transcript that proves that it actually happened???

[Leftit2L8]

Have to agree with you LovleyCJ, it could theoretically happen. Agree with HD, hope and pray it never does.

[Jetstream Rider]

You have to remember that a nasty terrorist can cause all sorts of nasty harm to all sorts of normal everyday things. A few seconds thought will prove that. In general there is nothing you can do except prevent these things happening in the first place. That doesn't mean you can't disagree and live your life a different way. It just means don't stir up the hornets nest. Unfortunately many events have stirred the nest, and there will be some pretty nasty things happen in the future. What those are is anyones guess, the fact remains we cannot prevent them all and just have to get on with our lives. In many cases the prevention is worse than the act and in that case they have won. At the end of the day ALL security systems depend on trust. Adding extra "security" to prevent your imagined scenario will only curtail innocent people's lives - something millions of people died to protect. Terrorists don't abide by laws, so legislation often only harms the innocent. I can't see how we could introduce anything that would solve your scenario without curtailing otherwise peaceful activities to all our detriment.

[+'ve ROC]

Well, there's something which could 'theoretically' happen...and then there's a credible threat.

Flying a light a/c delibrately into an airliner COULD happen, but so could an ground-to-air missle attack, or another 'shoe bomb' incident.

The issue is deciding what is CREDIBLE and what isn't, and planning accordingly.

We cannot anticipate and plan for every single possibility because there will always be vunerabilities at some point. There is always unfortunately a 'softer' target.

:(

(JetStreamRider beat me to it!)

[Wino]

Cj

The PSA 727 actually hit the cessna, not the other way around. Simple physics. the faster plane runs down the slower plane. Approach speed of most jets is faster than most light aircraft can achieve.

So its not something that can be done casually.


Furthermore airspace is a lot more carefully controlled these days. An aircraft in an arrival corridor not talking to anyone would cause all kinds of problems.



basically you could get the same effect by just launching a bunch of balloons. Think of the barrage balloons of WWII because the jet is gonna run into the smaller plane, not the other way around.

Wino

[LovelyCJ]

Agree with everything said.

My real point was to crystalize it in our minds and think what to do if this situation started to emerge. So what would flight deck crew / controllers course of action be? The intruder would obviously be seen on ground radar and then on TCAS. I remember reading an article about Spitfire v 109 where they said it wa almost a set format. If you were in a Spit and got bounced then you went straight into a tight turn which the 109 was unable to replicate to the same degree. If you were in a 109 then you pushed the stick and dived away taking advantage of the negative g fuel system that the Spit didn't have. I'm guessing therefore that if I was approached by an "intruder" then I'd just adopt a maximum rate climb in the hope that they couldn't follow. Obviously some help from a controller would be needed as to what was a legit contact and what was unauthorised, info that until the later stages (i.e. it became obvious) TCAS couldn't give.

Its getting heard all the time but I agree that to change or way of life or our freedom to live means that these mad men have won a victory. It was never my intention to suggest banning GA or to make flight plans mandatory for all GA trips, as in say Colombia (but for different reasons)..

[WindSheer]

The amount of planning they would have to put into that would be unreal!!
The chances of them actually getting it right on the day, very very slim!
If terrorists weighed those factors up, it would surely give them the nod to move onto something else.

There are so many open targets out there for them, and they are of course realising this now!!


And anyway, one for technical guys. Could a cessna or baron withstand the wake turbulance as it came close to impact, whilst 'following' a 747 down the glide? I dont think so!!

[fireflybob]

Should a possibility such as this be aired on an open forum thereby giving these idiots new ideas for wreaking their havoc?

[benedictus]

It is unlikely that the light would generate a TCAS contact as Mr Nasty would no doubt have turned off his transponder thereby making TCAS useless. They did it on 911 and ATC lost primary radar contact or just couldn't monitor the exact contacts they had.

All ATC would do is call an unknown primary conact and issue any avoiding action they felt necessary if it was felt that the contact was actually an aircraft (depending on the type opf airspace)

[barit1]

Nine years before PSA (http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_30a/briefs/190233-1.html)

[simon brown]

I'm sure it would be fairly easy to rent a light aircraft out of Wycombe , White Waltham etc fly reasonably low whilst ignoring all ATC and fly into either head on , or into the side of an aircraft on finals. What notice would ATC have to pass on to agencies who inform the airforce /army to shoot said intruder down??. Enough I would have thought if there are nearby resources to do so.

It would be the easiest thing in the world to base a couple of Apaches at Northholt along with an armed Hawk or two I would suspect.

I'm sure someone somewhere has the intelligence and inventiveness to look at scenarios we are putting forward and may have measures already in place that we dont know about.

[+'ve ROC]

Or...charter a Bizjet and use it 9/11 style??

or

Transmit false ATC instructions to cause problems.....

We could go on and on......

It doesn't take much imagination really, but we can't worry about every single possibility. We can't restrict our lives so much that we live in constant fear of attacks from here there and everywhere...

YES, someone could crash a light plane into another plane in all of the scenarios mentioned above... but is it a credible threat? NO!

[Jetstream Rider]

Fireflybob - it doesn't take a high school kid a second to think these things up, just go and look at a few films or read a comic. If we stop discussing these things, again they have won.

There seem to be some very strange ideas about what a light aircraft can do. Having spent a couple of hours chasing another light aircraft, only 50m away in the same type, I can tell you that hitting an airliner is harder than you think. All you have to do is miss and the disaster is averted. However the lighty is likely to be flipped about by wake or even break up and the heavy won't even notice. If they DID manage to get right in the way at the wrong time they would have to be extremely lucky and still they wouldn't have much of a chance, although theoretically it could be pretty bad.

I am more worried about the fireworks around November having been almost hit last year, and the police being utterly useless.

[172driver]

Is it possible - probably yes. Is it probable - don't think so. Here are a few reasons why:

1) Speed: chasing any landing jet 'down the ILS' isn't really an option for any (bar a handful) of small a/c. And, eve if you could, the relatiive impact speed would be very low (remember, both a/c are moving in the same direction).

2) Wake: I've had my ecounters with wake turbulence and have no desire whatsoever to get into the wake of a 'slow and dirty 747'. Should our Mr. Mad chose to do so, he'll probabaly kiss the ground rather than the bird he's chasing

3) Aim: you've simply got no speed advantage over the jet, hence you'd have to hit on first try. No manouevring or corrections possible. Highly unlikely.

As for the 'circuits in Denham and flying straight into the departure path' bit - if anyone can outclimb a jet in a Cessna or a Piper, please show me how - I'd love to be able to do it ;-) !!

[West Coast]

172driver

Unfortunately all the points you raise are easily countered by a determined, somewhat aeronautically savvy terrorist.

[Barry Cuda]

Furthermore airspace is a lot more carefully controlled these days. An aircraft in an arrival corridor not talking to anyone would cause all kinds of problems.

You have a non squawker out there and it doesn't matter how well controlled the airspace is. It could be at 10000' and you wouldn't know until someone told you about it....

[silverhawk]

I still maintain there are 'trusted employees' out there who are willing and able to deviate from a short final and cause the next attrocities.

Imagine a co-ordinated attack of Boeings being flown into the terminals at JFK, LHR, MAN, ADM etc all within hours of each other.

No need to breach security, no need to hijack, no need for weapons. Probable and credible threat.

Know your enemy, we probably already do know them.

[Superpilot]

Unfortunately all the points you raise are easily countered by a determined, somewhat aeronautically savvy terrorist.

Bull biscuits! How?


And Silverhawk, is that a bit of racism I smell under your breath?

Some people like the idea of perpetual war whilst others look for solutions to end this madness. Let's stop conjuring up these dangerous thoughts. As someone has already pointed out. Life is very fragile, it can take the smallest of violent acts to disrupt a peaceful life.....but what's new? these things have been happening since time began.

The best way to avoid such a tragedy would be to get our moral backsides into gear and deal with the core issues that might be the cause of such a thing. Just my tupence.

[silverhawk]

Superpilot, I didn't mention race at all. That might upset somebodies sensibilities and that would never do. Race and religion are not the issue, ideaology is.

I agree with you, fix the problem and the symptoms disappear.

[Superpilot]

I'll take your word for it buddy, but I think such notions are bound to result in over-zealous suspicion of men of a certain race-shall-we-say-no-more.

[Bof]

I have just been glancing throughthe posts on this topic with mounting anger. I really cannot understand the mentality of the people who have written the majority of this drivel Fireflybob is almost the only one with any sense. I suspect from the names used that most are wannabees or anorak spotters!

I cannot believe that any of them were written by professional pilots. We are living in a hell of a dangerouis age. It is no use saying that a terrorist can pick up a comic (sic) and read how to bring an aircraft down! Your idiot terrorist just might not, I say again, might not have read said "comic" and you have just given him an idea! It behoves all of us to stop broadcasting such stuff, however far fetched, that might give these guys a grain of help.
What do you hope to gain from your posts? A serious debate?
I give up!!!

[Jetstream Rider]

Its the sort of overreaction that bof gives that makes terrorists win.

Talking about a possibility is very far from teaching someone how to fly an aircraft, develop their skill, plan, re plan and execute a terrible act.

If you want some ideas for how to cause mass panic, widespread deaths, and stop us from living our lives the way we are accustomed, then look no further than your own imagination, or indeed your history books.

The Japanese regulary crashed aeroplanes into things, the Brits and Germans used mustard gas in the war, the Americans use fuel-air bombs, many countries use mines and other very nasty things. Do you really think a rumour network on the net will start the next terrorist threat?

While today's threat is pretty nasty, things have been much worse in the past. Lets not forget the wars all around the world, the terrorists in many different countries, not to mention state sponsored terrorism, whether it is as a privateer or a recognised armed force.

We have to bne realistic about this threat, it is not time to give up our liberty just yet. We are a long way from needing to do that.

[West Coast]

Bull biscuits, that's a new one. Check your PM's

[Sunfish]

This is a nasty thread and I've reported it. I hope its removed. I believe CJ is trolling. If he was a pilot he would know the answer anyway.

For a start its crap, at least in this country and probably in the UK and Europe as well.

At least over here, if someone were to enter controlled airspace near a major airport and not instantly identify themselves and immediately comply with ATC then traffic would be routed well away from the offender until it was "removed" one way or the other. Thats what "Separation" means.

Controlled airspace step heights and boundaries are designed to prevent this sort of thing - deliberately or accidently.

[West Coast]

How would you know someone was in controlled airspace in real time to allow action?

Surely TXponder would be off. Mitigates identification via secondary radar and TCAS. ATC radar, or at least the stuff I am familiar with may or may not be able detect a primary radar return. Even then you have no idea of height.

[PA-28-180]

Ok, I'll give you that the PSA collided with the 172. What about the AeroMex (727 or DC9) that WAS hit by a warrior after the pilot had a heart attack? Also in LAX airspace (but unsure of the date right now).
If you look at it logically, this is probably not going to happen...but it has by accident (as mentioned). Also, I agree with some of the previous, I don't believe we are giving anything "away" here. If you want to go down that route, then they should have banned Tom Clancy's book about the JAL 744 crashing into the White House and taking out almost the entire American government, including the Supreme Court justices...YEARS before 9/11. :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

West Coast.... by the use of radar. Primary radar shows 99% of aircraft and ATC soon becomes aware if an aircraft is not doing what they expect.

[West Coast]

HD

A busy terminal environment, especially with radar set up for wx in the area, could it be overlooked? Could it be recognized for its intent in time?

[+'ve ROC]

QUOTE

It behoves all of us to stop broadcasting such stuff, however far fetched, that might give these guys a grain of help.

UNQUOTE

We need to get this straight. The decision to take the path of terrorism is not a spur-of-the-moment one. A would-be terrorist isn't going to read this thread and then suddenly decide to implement some of the stupid, far fetched ideas posted above.

The recent terror attacks are part of a planned, sustained and co-ordinated campaign against us and are likely to have been 'in the pipeline' for months/years. I think it's naive to assume that this thread is giving 'fuel' to these monsters - it doesn't take a genuis to think of a way to take lives...

We can't let fear of terrorism rule our lives.

[swords 29]

i think this is a poor thread

how about this one?

Do you think it possible, that just as you are slipping into the gents for a waz, that your wife, who was hitherto completely normal, follows you in, and without you being aware of the other revellers in the pub shouting out "watch out, she's behind you....", and also believing she would follow the separation procedures between the ladies and the gents, she uses the same toilets as you?

could it happen?

[Maude Charlee]

Well, that certainly explains the spate of near misses in the North East over the last few years.:rolleyes: Guess they should have gone to Specsavers.

What's all this with the obsession with London? You really think terrorists are so dumb that they don't know there is a world full of targets out there? You honestly believe that they're also incapable of being creative and original in the ways in which they go about their activities?

Why bother with anything so complex as trying a mid-air collision. Ridiculously easy to get a job at a regional airport and put a device into the hold whilst loading bags. Think it can't be done? Only a matter of time. It's not the terrorists who are dumb.

[BOAC]

Before anyone else offers 'suggestions' for attacking air transport, I would say a few things:-

1) The opening scenario would be so difficult to achieve we can effectively dismiss it.

2) Regarding 'bombs in the hold' - that scenario is also ignoring not just the NORMAL procedures but the heightened security procedures now in place.

3) Several people have commented on (and complained about) the wisdom of giving 'nutters' or others ideas, however unlikely, via threads like these. It is a pointless thread in a way in as much we all face a real threat in the UK today, but the thread starter has had nothing to offer as a suggestion, only floated an 'idea'. I do not consider that serves any useful function. I have decided it will be closed now.

As a few have said, let us not raise the anxiety levels through 'odd' scenarios like these, which as a few have said, play right into the hands of those who wish to create 'anxieties' in our society. There are enough real ones all around us to keep us, and those charged with our safety, on our toes.

........and as for the gent's toilet threat, now that IS a worry:D