PDA

View Full Version : seminars


nick p
25th Jul 2005, 20:16
Unfortunately i have allowed my Fi rating to slip which requires me to attend a seminar,could anyone please enlighten me to what goes on at these occasions.

FlyingForFun
26th Jul 2005, 08:14
It's basically a weekend of drinking coffee and listening to people talking about flying and instruction. A lot of it is very interactive, with the attendees split into groups and given tasks to perform, which range from simple things like putting ticks in boxes, right through to organising a short presentation.

I attended one of these not because it was required, but because the school I did my FIC training with run the seminars. On the weekend of the seminar I couldn't do any training because all my instructors were lecturing at the seminar, so they invited me to attend for free. I found it interesting and educational - probably not something I'd necessarilly choose to do again, but it's not something to worry or get stressed about either.

FFF
--------------

Whirlybird
26th Jul 2005, 08:54
I'm going to have to go to one soon too, unless I can somehow get to 100 hours in 3 years...doesn't look likely right now with the small number of T/Ls I'm doing. :( How much does it cost? Where do you find out about them? And are all of them for rotary FIs too, or do they have special ones?

eyeinthesky
26th Jul 2005, 09:23
One company which provides instructor renewal seminars is on the link below. I should point out, before I get pilloried for advertising, that there are other companies who offer seminars as well. I attended a seminar organised by this company when I did my last renewal and found it very interesting.

For Whirly: On my renewal, there were rotary instructors as well. The only difference was that when it came to doing the presentation, it was rotary-specific (describing vortex ring and how to avoid it from what I remember). All the rest was generic. When I did it three years ago it was about £250 for the two days excluding accommodation.

http://www.flightexaminers.com/seminars1.htm

breakscrew
26th Jul 2005, 16:11
Hi Whirly,
AOPA do excellent seminars; details are:

AOPA JAR-FCL Flight Instructor Refresher Seminar

AOPA will be conducting further Flight Instructor Renewal Seminars as follows:

2005
22-23 March - Bristol
12-13 July - London
6-7 December - London

2006
21-22 March - Bristol

The two-day seminars, for six hours each day, will comprise main plenary sessions and workshops, to cover the requirements for Aeroplane, Helicopter, Multi-engine and Instrument Rating Instructors.

The cost for attendance at the seminar will be: £212.77 plus VAT £37.23 = Total £250.00

A discounted price for current AOPA Instructor Members: £191.49 plus VAT £33.51 = Total £225.00

The above prices include morning coffee, a buffet lunch, and tea/coffee in the afternoon.

Details of accommodation available nearby will be sent to applicants on request.

To apply for your place, complete the registration form below, nominating the Venue/date you require.

All attendees must book and pay in advance. There will be no registrations accepted at the door on the day.

To apply for your place, complete the registration form, nominating the Venue/date you require.

See their website at: http://www.aopa.co.uk/

They are very much as 'eyeinthesky' describes with appropriate sections for us rotary types to get together and talk specifics when necessary.

Good Luck
BS

nick p
26th Jul 2005, 19:09
thanks for the info,it's been along time since i instructed so i think i'll probably feel like a fish out of water,but seeing as i got alot of satisfaction out of ppl instruction i feel the need to get back into it again,what kind of presentations where you asked to do?.

Whopity
2nd Aug 2005, 22:22
And http://www.ontrackaviation.com/

Seminars at Sywell March and October

Send Clowns
4th Aug 2005, 23:11
Hey, Whirly - I can recommend ETA (from eyeinthesky's link) and you have a place to stay in Bournemouth if you need it.

deltic
24th Aug 2005, 07:36
I have been on the ETA course and AOPA instructor seminars. Both seem to be run on the basis, were ex-CFS we know best!

I didn't really learn much from the ETA course, and the AOPA course was just a complete waste of time and money. What made it worse was an ex-CFS (but failed CAFFU examiner) seminar instructor, banging on about the EFATO turn back, fine if you in a Lightning (lots of energy and speed, with a big open military airfield behind you, but asking for problems in a light aircraft. Oh and his other pet subject was flying the approach, attitude for glidepath and power for speed was the only way you can teach it.

I cant comment on Ontrack but it can only be better than the others.

P.S. I have no commercial interst in any of these organisations

Whirlybird
24th Aug 2005, 07:51
Only just got back to this thread; been busy! Thanks for info, and Send Clowns, thanks for offer of place to stay.

But I may not need it! I'm getting more work, I have a student who wants to do the whole course with me, and I only need another 45 or so hours before next April to get to the magic 100 hours (OK, fulltime FIs, laugh all you want!). I have to do a test anyway, as it's my first revalidation, but I thought I might need to do both, as 20 minute TLs take a long time to add up to 100 hours.

All I need now is good weather over winter...and maybe another student or two. :ok:

nick p
24th Aug 2005, 19:56
hey deltic,thanks for the heads up,got the seminar in september which is a real bitch as i can't get back to instructing till then,doing my flight at andrewsfield.

Classic
10th Sep 2005, 18:52
What made it worse was an ex-CFS (but failed CAFFU examiner) seminar instructor, banging on about the EFATO turn back, fine if you in a Lightning (lots of energy and speed, with a big open military airfield behind you, but asking for problems in a light aircraft. Oh and his other pet subject was flying the approach, attitude for glidepath and power for speed was the only way you can teach it.

Sounds like he knew what he was talking about to me. It might be worth thinking again about what he said.

BTW, turnbacks weren't really appropriate for a twin engined aircraft like a Lightning, but were/are for single engine piston aircraft.

mad_jock
10th Sep 2005, 23:02
Sounds like he knew what he was talking about to me

(rant removed)

And its not really the instructors fault. Its the FII and FIE who are to blame for crap standards and zero party line.

The boys need to sit down and work out what is actually meant to happen. IF it is point and push yes we can all teach this. If it is throttle for hieght pitch for speed again we can all teach this.

But what we don't need is for the men in the know to be each teaching a different bloody method.

But i suppose everyone moans about the lack of flight standards and the FI instructors and examiners can't agree how to fly an approach so what how does a grunt FI have any hope of hitting the mark.

IF you are teaching PPL's and they are all passing just ignore what ever the "seminar Instructors" say, it works.

When they get thier own house in order and there is a common standard then start listening .

MJ

Classic
11th Sep 2005, 10:14
I wouldn't the old point it and push of the mil teach em how to fly is a pain in the arse.

Its a pile of ****e with a normal training aircraft.


Pick any combination of:

You weren't taught how to use the principle properly.
You aren't using it properly
You aren't teaching it properly

I've used it with hundreds of people without the slightest problem with the technique.

I also realise there's more than one way to skin a cat, as do the authorities, hence both are taught and used, so I wouldn't argue with which is taught. Maybe better understanding and an open mind would help here.

mad_jock
11th Sep 2005, 12:03
Sorry about the last post it was a bit of a saturday night rant.

Point and push works fine in certain aircraft. It doesn't with others. Cessna' and piper types both methods work equally well, Katana's its a right pain.

And as we all know we don't fly either but a combination of both. Its just a starting block for the students until they can get the cordination together to pitch the nose in the correct sense while adjusting the power.

What my main rant was about was not which method is best but the lack of standardisation. And the old boys pushing their particular flavour. You can be quite happy for the last 3 years then some god tells you your doing it all wrong. If they could choose then everyone teaches the same thing. The students are happier because if they get an instructor swap they don't have to relearn a new method. And if at low hours they disappear off to self hire on holiday they again don't have to spend time and money relearning the local methods. When in fact both methods the person is being taught are correct. You now have some low houred pilot not knowing if they are coming or going and there motor programing is all shot by having to change methods with relatively little experence.

MJ

nick p
14th Sep 2005, 17:01
just got back from the seminar,that good i nearly fell asleep.

vetflyer
14th Sep 2005, 17:23
enjoyed it then?

nick p
14th Sep 2005, 21:50
stunning,although there were a couple of things that were of interest,different techniques etc.

vetflyer
14th Sep 2005, 22:22
that will be the ' Turn Back' following an EFATO?

nick p
15th Sep 2005, 19:48
That and a couple of other things,although the way i explained a PFL got shot down in flames practicaly.

BigEndBob
15th Sep 2005, 23:13
Would that be ETA at Cranfield?

Not to worry its over now, did you drop off to sleep before or after the lunch, which i have to admit wasn't bad.

asymm. part one.

nick p
16th Sep 2005, 16:33
the assym pt1 was very detailed,didn't get that kind of pre-flight briefing when i did my mep.

Send Clowns
16th Sep 2005, 23:10
ETA is in Bournemouth! Was last time I looked, anyway.

vetflyer
17th Sep 2005, 08:09
Clown that is so incisive.

Ok should have been:

Was that the course held at Cranfield ran by ETA who are based in Bournemouth?

but hey , the meaning was clear and your post and mine are totally fascile

Any comments about course content and Turnback would be useful?

nick p
18th Sep 2005, 18:55
09:00 coffee and registration
09:10 welcome and safety brief
09:30 instructional techniques
10:30 coffee break
10:45 instructional techniques
11:15 high risk lecture
12:15 lunch(very nice too)
13:15 low flying
14:15 instrument flying
15:00 tea
15:15 efato
16:00 JAR-FCL
17:00 intro to syndicate work

DAY TWO

09:00 e of c
10:00 syndicate work
11:00 tea
11:15 spinning
12:15 pfl's group discussion
13:00 lunch(again,good)
13:45 syndicate work
15:30 tea
15:45 syndicate work
17:00 HOME

squeakyunclean
25th Sep 2005, 19:33
Here's the previous thread on this topic.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13658

My opinion hasn't changed since then..........


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flight test for me. Went to Leeds last Nov and learnt (almost) nothing, although was warned at the start that this would be a refresher. Not good value. Seminar wins on guarantee against wx and failure due to lack of ability.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting comment about some cfs character TELLING us to teach turn backs to ppl students. Met with v.short shrift in Nov 2000. Wonder if it's the same guy?

BigEndBob
25th Sep 2005, 20:21
The turnback discussion was for the instructors benefit.
Don't think there was any suggestion it should be taught to students.

Send Clowns
26th Sep 2005, 00:08
Sorry Vet, was not aware that they did roving courses. I am local, and know them, so only looked at their courses here!

Turnback: only when established crosswind. Killed 2 in Bournemouth last year, with one still in hospital now I believe.

deltic
27th Sep 2005, 13:56
Following your responses:

Firstly, Classic regarding your comments regarding the turnback, I stand corrected. However my turnback concern is that and inexperienced pilot (low how part time FIR) may come a cropper soon. Sure the turnback is not impossible, just potentially hazardous. The instructor at the seminar when questioned on the height loss in a Bulldog T1 clearly hadn't read his flight manual!

There is a theorectical height loss, try it at 3000 ft, but when your closing towards the ground, it's very different.

Secondly, mad-jock I found your comments interesting regarding the katana, I haven't flown the type, its pity you were not at the seminar, although you would have been told to shut, up, because the instructor concerned wasn't interested in any other views!

Deltic

vetflyer
27th Sep 2005, 18:57
No worries , Clowns , I was having a bad day( again).

Keen to hear views re 'turn back'.

Just an attempt to canvas poeples view.

Imagine a November evening , ( tide is in ), departing Runway 25 wind 260/15 at Blackpool.

A C172 engine fails at 500ft on climb out, 4 people on board.

What would people opt for :-

1) standard glide land straight ahead possibly landing in water

2) Turn back to airport ( Fire crews available)

Any thoughts on this would be good .


Back to the seminar , I believe the guy discussing turn back , would not tell anyone to shut up , but was keen to develop a discussion.

I am low hour part time FI(r) so are looking for help.

FlyingForFun
28th Sep 2005, 11:57
Vetflyer,

The general rule is always to pick a field within 30 degrees of the nose. But you asked specifically about Blackpool.

The reasons for not attempting a turn-back have already been stated. But one very important point is that made by Deltic - under pressure to make it to the runway, the actual height loss may well be far more than the theoretical height loss - and it is also when under pressure that people are likely to loose track of their attitude and stall/spin.

But there is an exception to every rule. At Blackpool, I teach my students that runways 25 and 28 are exceptions to the rule. In either case, if you are high enough to clear Pontins, a gentle turn to the left to land on the beach at St Annes is usually the best course of action. The justification for this is that

- a) a landing on the beach (assuming there aren't too many people on it, which there usually aren't between Pontins and St Annes Pier) is better than ditching in the water

- b) although the turn of around 90 degrees or more that is necessary is far more than the normal maximum of 30 degrees, the target (the beach) is very large, and also very wide if the tide is out. Therefore, there will be very little pressure on the pilot to make the beach, as compared to the pressure involved in a turn-back to the airfield. Even a low-hours student pilot, so long as he gets the attitude and speed correct, will be able to make a gentle turn through 90 degrees and then land on the beach ahead without risking a stall/spin.

The only time I would differ from this is with a northerly or northwesterly wind, with the tide out, and when there are relatively few sunbathers around, in which case a right turn to the beach near South Pier, into wind, is better than the downwind landing that would result in heading for the beach at St Annes. I would never suggest that a student should try to turn back, and I would never attempt it myself either.

Any views from other Blackpool pilots welcome.

FFF
-------------

vetflyer
1st Oct 2005, 10:13
Thanks FFF

Just wondering if tide is in , therefore no beach and it is dark then ( only after proper trg and practice) is a turnback to airfield by the FI is a better option than swimming ! But not below say 600ft.

Balance of risks ?

Also if summer and beach is full of families what are your thoughts of landing on beach and running over bystanders.

FlyingForFun
2nd Oct 2005, 14:42
Vet,

First of all, I think it's important to stress that I can only give very general guidance/advice, because every case is different. As a pilot gets more and more experience, he starts looking for, and noticing, more and more options. The right turn to land alongside South Pier, for example, was something which I didn't realise was an option until fairly recently, so it's entirely possible there are other options than those which I've noticed.

I don't believe that the tide at St Annes ever comes in completely, there is always a bit of beach. And even in summer, there is a large stretch of beach which is generally empty. (If you drive down Clifton Drive, once past Pontins, there are no houses or other buildings for quite some distance, and therefore no one on the beach.....)

Having said that, if the beach really isn't an option for the reasons you've given, I'd still go for ditching alongside the beach. If it's a busy beach, someone will see you ditching and help won't be too far away - and if you get as close as you safely can to the sunbathers/swimmers, the sea will quite likely be shallow enough to wade in, or calm enough to swim in (otherwise people wouldn't be sun-bathing and swimming there).

By 600', you will normally have turned crosswind (in a normal circuit), and your options are completely different. On a right-hand crosswind from runway 28/25/31, your options are very very few. I think that swimming in from South Pier will often be your only realistic choice. But with a bit of extra height, from runway 25/28, a landing on runway 13 might be possible..... but with the approach over the houses, I'm not sure I'd try it unless I had quite a bit of height. I certainly wouldn't try it from 600' on a straight-out departure - others with more experience might, but not me, and I wouldn't suggest it to my students.

FFF
-----------------