Aer Lingus to order 3 A380's

[Jim236]

Thought this might be worth mentioing.

Got talking to someone out at Dublin Airport while planspotting who's dad is an A330 pilot for Aer Lingus. He said his dad along with other pilots has been informed that Aer Lingus are now considering ordering 3 A380's in the future after the completion of the new terminal along with some work done on the existing runway 28 to accomodate the plane.
How Aer Lingus are planning to afford this I've been told, is by buying loads of A320's but aren't using all of them. Airbus do send out inspectors though to make sure they're being used in order to get a discount for the A380 and they're making it look like they are using them so they'll be discounted on the price of the A380 in the future. And knowing Aer Lingus they'll then go to Boeing and say:
'Airbus have just said we can have an A380 for this price, can you offer any cheaper for a 747Adv?' .
They did this when deciding between buying the 737NG and A320 order and got all of their A320's for cheap.

I think it'd be great to see A380's at Dublin in the future and this is definitly a plane the Dublin Airport Authority need to be planning for with the new terminal 2 design and also the new extension of runway 29 into 28R in about 7 years time.
And on another note, I was informed by the Dublin Airport Fire Chief that they're still in the designing stages of T2 and have brought in designers and consultants who worked on T5 at Heathrow. They're still trying to decide between building on the east or the west side.

Anyway I hope this rumour turns out to be true in the future but its only a matter of time until we find out. Aer Lingus have still yet to decide on whether to order the new A350 or 787.

[Bmused55]

Erm....

am I the only one who has trouble finding a route for these humungous aircraft in EI's route structure?

And whats this about Airbus cutting them a deal? "Buy X ammount of A320s from us and we'll throw in some A380s for cheap"

Thats dumping aircraft. Thats illegal and highly anti competative.
Is it any wonder they're to be investigated by the WTO?

Don't get me wrong dude... not intention to impugn yourself... just I find this information highly suspect.

[akerosid]

Hmm ... all sounds very unlikely. They buy more aircraft than they need and then get aircraft much bigger than they need?

Don't think so. I just don't see the 380 figuring in EI's plans for a very, very long time (if at all).

My personal view is that the most likely option for EI's long haul is the 777. I think the main thing EI needs now is certainty as far as the ability to start new long haul flights is concerned - particularly to the US.

[Bmused55]

Hmm dunno about the 777.

If they needed more range and seats than the A330, the A340-300 would be the natural choice if they indeed are fixed on an all airbus fleet.

But if they want performance/economics above commonality then the 777 is top player.
And lets face it, head to head, commonality is the only thing the A340-300 has over the 777 in this case.

[mutt]

If they needed more range and seats

More range, why??

Mutt.

[Bmused55]

I don't think they need it.

I was just hypothesizing in relation to akerosid's suggestion of EI going for the 777.
Note the use of the word "if" ;) :ok:

To explain... if EI were to purchase the 777, it could indicate the need for increased range and seats.
As opposed to simply getting more A330s.

[Jim236]

Lads get your facts straight before doubting the info.

Aer Lingus have already announced they are to introduce new routes to South Africa, Middle East, Australia, Asia, 22 new routes to the US and several new routes in Europe over the next couple of years. To do this they need new planes and the only way they could get the money for these new planes was through privatising some of the airline.

The government wouldn't give the airline the €1B they needed for new planes so they decided to sell off a majority stake of the airline in order for it to make money which it will. But at the same time they retain 25% or more in order to have control over whatever decisions are brought to the agenda.

With this new plan, Aer Lingus can have tonnes of investors from all over the world who've been eager to get a share in the airline. And therefore with new investors pooring money into the airline, they can finally get new planes. The redundancies are also dieing off now and the job cuts are also finally coming to an end too so Aer Lingus will be making a lot of money in the near future.

Erm....

am I the only one who has trouble finding a route for these humungous aircraft in EI's route structure?

And whats this about Airbus cutting them a deal? "Buy X ammount of A320s from us and we'll throw in some A380s for cheap"

Thats dumping aircraft. Thats illegal and highly anti competative.
Is it any wonder they're to be investigated by the WTO?

Again get your facts straight, its not illegal at all. Airbus offered Qantas a load of cheap A330's if they ordered some A380's which they did. Airbus are being brought to the WTO because of being given government aid launch funds which Boeing also get and they too are being brought to the WTO as well.

And what you obviously don't know either is that no airline as of yet has configured the A380 to seat its capable 800 passengers. Most airlines have configured it to a 3 class configuration and it will seat about 500 people and Aer Lingus already carry about 400 people on all of their trans-atlantic flights in their A330's.
Its uneconomical to configure an aircraft to carry that many passengers and I guarantee no airline will ever do it in the near to mid future.

Dublin Airport is the fastest growing airport in Europe and its not too far off accepting big airliners such as the MD-11, 747-400PAX, A340 etc. etc. and this will most likely happen once the new T2 is complete in 2009.

Aer Lingus has just as much potential as Dublin Airport and is already expanding at the moment with new European routes launched every month. They will eventually be using all of their A320's but every airline will do what they can to save on money. Aer Lingus have played this gameplan dozens of times before. And they'll most likely play it again in the future and convince Airbus to give them a price-cut on the A350 instead of buying the 787 which Airbus do a lot.
Aer Lingus is already proposing to expand its trans-atlantic routes and is enquiring about a new ORK-JFK route in the A330.
The most likely time we should expect to see the arrival of new big jets is around the time of the completion of terminal 2 to the time of the new runway 28R which allows for the big jets I've listed above. At the moment Dublin Airport can't handle these big jets on a frequent basis. And the biggest plane seen there is the Singapore Cargo 747-400F which flies in once a week.

My overall point is that you shouldn't rule it out straight away. Aer Lingus will grow substantially over the next few years with new investors buying into the airline. We'll see new planes added to the fleet and the majority will be heavy jets for their new proposed long haul routes which they have said they'll definitly be introducing, especially with the new plan to sell off a majority stake to private investors which opens up new finance to Aer Lingus.
On a final note, don't forget that the A380 has 3 model types - A380-700/A380-800/A380-900. Aer Lingus could always buy the A380-700 which is smaller than the one Airbus have shown us all and would suit the airline well.

Anyway thats my 2 cents worth.

[Bmused55]

Airbus are up for scrutiny by the WTO for the subsidies yes... but their continuing practice to dump cheap aircraft on the market is anti competative.

How on gods green earth can a competitor counter a buy one get 1 free deal?
easyJet, Air Berlin and Air Asia, to name a few, have benefited from such a deal.

Discounts are normal... we all know that no airline pays list price.
But to sell 120 jets for the price of 60 to 80, along with free maintenance, crew training and ground equipment... that's not only insane but very anticompetative and I'm sure the WTO will take note when they scrutinize Airbus' books.

I know full well that no airline thus far has planned to configure their A380s at full capacity. And that so far the ONLY model type for the A380 is the 800.
No 700 or 900 has been formaly offered, nor launched, thus they are not available.

I cannot see EI getting the A380 simply because its too big and Dublin, although growing, simply does not and will not have the pax traffic to justify it. Unless all other Irish Airports are closed.

With the oil prices as they are ans set to rise higher, the A380 will only be economical with all its seats filled. And filling a 400-500-600 seat aircraft all year round will be a challenge even for the largest airlines, let alone filling 3 of them :uhoh:

And you talk about more price cutting from Airbus in the future for the A350...
More aircraft dumping!
I see Airbus had to pay an airline to agree to order it. Another highly suspect deal that the WTO will scrutinize.

On the by, you pitch the 787 and A350 against each other.... yet they are not direct competitors.

Simply put, the A350 is bigger and will more likely challenge future 772ER orders.
Airbus have again gone for the "bigger is better approach" in order to gain orders from the middle east.
And in doing so ignored a very valuable market... the A300/A310/767 replacement, the 787s prime market.

[MarkD]

There is a faint chance of Ireland-US routes supporting A380s but there are plenty of reasons why it won't happen.

Remember EI used to operate 747-100s when demand for air travel was much smaller so it's not impossible to imagine demand for 555+ seats ex DUB to JFK, but the fact remains that it is likely to be constrained by the inadequate 10/28 and the bilateral requirement of operating from SNN. It will also require retention of 330s for thinner routes and entail creation of a new fleet type and the consequent maintenance, spares, handling, training and crewing costs.

It is also constrained by a stupid transport "policy" which all parties have had a chance to change and none ever have.

It is also constrained by the lack of EI cash, a lack which will be further constrained with the ending of the bilateral when the US airlines can fly from where they want to where they want and European airlines can operate from DUB if they wish.

As I have pointed out before, a B757 (wingleted) or A310 base at SNN could service the traffic from there while the 330s (remember they are -201/-301 so getting on) are concentrated in Dublin to conserve their cycles in the same way AA are operating 767s to DUB but only 757s to SNN but there is no bottle in either EI or more importantly .gov.ie.

[Bmused55]

MarkD A fine reply :ok:

[Jim236]

but the fact remains that it is likely to be constrained by the inadequate 10/28 and the bilateral requirement of operating from SNN.

Well the government have recently been leaniant on the Shannon connection and this is seen by Aer Lingus operating direct routes from Dublin without going through Shannon so that shouldn't hold them back at all.
There is nothing stopping the Dublin Airport Authority from upgrading runway 28/10 to meet the requirements for the A380. Remember airports all over the world have had to made adjustments with runways and taxiways to accomodate the A380 so Dublin wouldn't be the first airport to have to do that. Some of those airports include Frankfurt, LAX, JFK, and London-Heathrow.
I also indicated in my last post that the time we would see the arrival of many large jets into the Aer Lingus fleet would be around the time of the opening of T2 when new gates and services would be able to accomodate such a large plane like the A380.

It will also require retention of 330s for thinner routes and entail creation of a new fleet type and the consequent maintenance, spares, handling, training and crewing costs.

Not sure what you mean by this, so please elaborate on that.
But one thing to mention though is that the A380 has very low maintenance costs compared to a plane like the 747-400 let alone a 747-100 and there will always be training costs for new planes but why would that stop an airline form buying a plane? Thats a rediculous excuse and not one many airlines use to avoid buying a plane. All of the maintenence costs you've listed above will be extremely cheap for a plane like the A380 so again that wouldn't prevent Aer Lingus from buying it.

It is also constrained by the lack of EI cash

Again try reading my post properly and you'll find that I said with the majority stake of the airline being sold off to private investors, this opens up loads of new finance for Aer Lingus and therefore allowing them to buy new planes so cash won't be an issue in the near future.

As I have pointed out before, a B757 (wingleted) or A310 base at SNN could service the traffic from there while the 330s (remember they are -201/-301 so getting on) are concentrated in Dublin to conserve their cycles in the same way AA are operating 767s to DUB but only 757s to SNN but there is no bottle in either EI or more importantly .gov.ie.

Like I said, the Shannon stop-over rule has been reduced and isn't as strict as it was and IMO I think it will eventually be abolished but my point is, it doesn't stop Aer Lingus from operating routes without having to go through Shannon.

So I stress again my final point from my last post, which is that you shouldn't rule this out completely because it could happen. And the reasons listed why everyone thinks it won't happen have nearly all been prooven not to be valid and don't prevent an airline like Aer Lingus to buy this jet. And again like I said earlier, Aer Lingus already carry about 400 passengers on their routes to the US which are nearly always full so buying an A380 would suit Aer Lingus very well, and probably the A380-700 out of all 3 types.

It was also said above earlier that the Boeing 777 would suit Aer Lingus. I can tell ya now they won't be buying it. I've done work experience with SR Technics at Dublin and they have all told me that Aer Lingus will be staying Airbus meaning they will be most likely be buying the A350 which is compeition for the 777 and 767 as well as the 787. And buying the 777 would entail much higher training, maintenence, crew costs and most likely the initial price for the plane itself as Boeing are usually more expensive than Airbus.

[Bmused55]

There is no A380-700
Period.
Perhaps the idea for one... but it doesn't go beyond that.

Also. the A350 is not a direct 787 competitor. Its bigger and heavier and will more likely compete with the 772ER.

The 767 market is not even touched by the A350, as Airbus in their infinate wisdom choose to ignore that market and go grovel to EK and QR for orders.

The 767/A310/A300 short/medium haul high density market will be the sole preserve of the 787-3 and to some extent the 787-8. The A350 is far too heavy this. The 787-3 is designed for it ;) :ok:

[Jim236]

There is no A380-700
Period.
Perhaps the idea for one... but it doesn't go beyond that.

Well when it comes down to it, I'll believe Airbus over you and they've announced all 3 modeles WILL be built.

Also. the A350 is not a direct 787 competitor. Its bigger and heavier and will more likely compete with the 772ER.

No its not a direct competitor for the 787 but it was Airbus's idea to go against the Boeing 787 but its developed so much through the designing stages that its more compeitive with larger planes like the one you mentioned, the 777.

The 767 market is not even touched by the A350, as Airbus in their infinate wisdom choose to ignore that market and go grovel to EK and QR for orders.

Wrong. The A350 will have many features of the A330, in fact it HAS to have a lot of the A330 features because the A350 isn't being certified as a separate aircraft and only as an addition to the A330.
The A330 was originally built to compete with the Boeing 767 and did this very well and outsold the 767 by far. So it is technically slightly competing with the 767 but fact is that theres no compeition because nobody is buying the plane as they're waiting for the 787 instead.

[Bmused55]

Wrong.

The a350 is not a short/medium haul high density aircraft.
the 787-3 is.
The A350 does not compete on this level, BIG mistake by Airbus.

And the airbus engineer I talk to says the 800 is as small as it can economically get for the A380.


He also promised 99% reliabilty for the A340-600... a year past the deadline its still short of it.
He promised 8000nm for the a340-600 initialy... thats far far off.
He promised strong performance on the A340-300... its powered by hairdryers and struggles out of hot and high airfields.
To put it simply; Airbus promise a lot that they don't deliver.

Edit: I would have thought you were aware by now that naming names is a no no on PPRuNe, especially when it is also couched as an insult. No more please.

PPP

[Jim236]

And the airbus engineer I talk to says the 800 is as small as it can economically get for the A380.


He also promised 99% reliabilty for the A340-600... a year past the deadline its still short of it.
He promised 8000nm for the a340-600 initialy... thats far far off.
He promised strong performance on the A340-300... its powered by hairdryers and struggles out of hot and high airfields.
To put it simply; Airbus promise a lot that they don't deliver.

Fair enough like. But I'm sure if theres a market for an A380-700, Airbus will produce it and we can only wait and see what happens in the future. Sure the thing hasn't even entered service yet so theres still plenty more to come out of the plane in the future and I'm sure if it can go larger, it can definitly go smaller. IMO theres more market for a smaller version of the A380-800 than there is for a larger version.
We'll see what Aer Lingus decide in the future but I honestly hope they do get some A380's and not the 747-400Adv. Then again I wouldn't mind if they got some new large jets full stop as they've only 3 models atm which is a very small variation in a fleet. But Aer Lingus are going to be getting much bigger jets than the A330 in the future and its gotta be something else like the A350 or A340 if not the A380.

[Bmused55]

The trouble is.. a shorter A380 would be horrendously heavy for the number of seats it would be carrying. You just could not make it work.

The A380-800 is overweight as it is. Airbus have gotten around this by quietly upping the brochure OEW specifications.

The world of Quad airliners is shrinking. Twin jets are the future. The A380 as it is is a dinosaur in this respect. The 747ADV even more so.

Quads are going to become a niche market before long. I realy do not think such a future support a heavily overweight shorter A380-700.

But then again... Airbus won't pay for much of it... so they'll just go ahead anyway.
The A380 will not sell more than 500 I feel.

[Jim236]

Yeah but remember, everyone had all of these thoughts when Boeing proposed the 747. The A380 could end up being the future of aircraft but thats hard to tell at this stage and as I said, only time will tell as to whether this beast will be a success. I personally hope it is as it seems like a great aircraft but then again could also have the same future as the MD-11 and end up only being a success with cargo companies like UPS and FedEx.

[oceancrosser]

A lot of strange comments on this thread. Just remember the B747SP. 16 built. A dud.

[Capn Notarious]

The world of Quad airliners is shrinking

Ask yourself this: Is the pax gonna ask, more engines more secure. Less engine less to go wrong? You have a # arguement
Now many have more in the food store than they need, but seek comfort by having spares.
# is the sign of fractured.

[CM_Falcon]

When making wild statements don’t try to prove you knowledge with obviously wrong statement that are easily verified.

Aer Lingus already carry about 400 people on all of their trans-atlantic flights in their A330's.

True number is 327. Almost as close to 250 as 400…

Oceancrosser, agree with your first statement but the second is at about a third of the right number. 747SP deliveries (http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/displaystandardreport.cfm?optReportType=Delivery&optDateRange=Specific&cboStartMonth=06&cboStartYear=1960&cboEndMonth=06&cboEndYear=2005&optCustInfo=Customer&cboCustomerName=AllCustomers&cboCountryName=&cboRegionName=&cboCurrentModelName=AllModels&cboAllModelName=&optModelInfo=AllDetailModels&cboAllMinorModelName=747-SP&optSort=Customer&ViewReportF=View+Report)

Edit: If Aer lingus would like to advertise on PPRuNe we have a fee for it. Please do not provide links for their services.

PPP

[Mark Noble]

Jim - where are you hearing your stories from?

First of all - Dublin airport fastest growing airport?? It's a bloody kip!!

Aer Lingus don't use 747s for years and then suddenly when they aim more everyday to become a LOCO they start buying the biggest plane in the world?!

The plans you mention of the construction of the new terminal are not as advanced as you make out either.

As it stands anyway DUB could not facilitate a 380.

[mutt]

Before they buy new aircraft, I think that EI have to define its product, is it a LOCO or a Flag carrier? Premier class is gone on most routes, they wont fly coffins and they even have to give a phonetic version of the gaelic passenger briefing to the Flight Attendants, so whatever happened to the Irish colleens smile?

They will still attract North Amercian vacationers going home to the olde sod, but they will get eaten alive if the enter the Far East market!

EK/QR/EY have to fill those A380's somehow!

But one thing to mention though is that the A380 has very low maintenance costs compared to a plane like the 747-400

Where did you get the figures from? Are they based on mx costs divided by 800 seats?

Mutt

[DW11]

So Airbus send out inspectors to make sure that Aer Lingus are using all their A320's. What complete and utter rubbish.

[Bmused55]

Yeah but remember, everyone had all of these thoughts when Boeing proposed the 747. The A380 could end up being the future of aircraft but thats hard to tell at this stage and as I said, only time will tell as to whether this beast will be a success. I personally hope it is as it seems like a great aircraft but then again could also have the same future as the MD-11 and end up only being a success with cargo companies like UPS and FedEx.

When the 747 came out Oil was plentyfull and cheap. Also airlines did not have a post Sept 11 cut throat industry. Many could afford to simply splash out on 747s for pride.

That is not the case now. Oil is slowly runing out, prices will only go higher, and Airlines no longer have the cash to simply buy the A380 because their neighbours got one. Quads will always guzzle more fuel than twins. therefore the quads will always be more expensive to operate, good only for when ETOPS is not an option.

The widebody twins are here, and they're here to stay.
The a380 will sell to those who need it... and I believe those who do already have ordered it. There isn't much scope left for it. Two key customers it was aimed at have ditched the idea of big fat high density aircraft for their domestic services and opted for smaller, more efficient twin wide bodies (namely the 787) to operate more frequencies and garner more cash. These airlines are JAL and Air India.

Its a huge aircraft optimized for long haul into slot restricted airports. Well done to Airbus for pulling it off... but that is its limit.


Ask yourself this: Is the pax gonna ask, more engines more secure. Less engine less to go wrong? You have a # arguement
Now many have more in the food store than they need, but seek comfort by having spares.
# is the sign of fractured.

Oh please, the average punter doesn't care. Comfort and Affordability is the main concern of todays traveller.

This 4 engines 4 long haul idea is dead... and Airbus proved it by announcing the A350. Not to mention the good sales of the 777.

but then again could also have the same future as the MD-11 and end up only being a success with cargo companies like UPS and FedEx.

To be fair, the MD-11 flopped because McDonnell failed to make it perform to the gaurantess given.
They simply stuck wingtips on the DC-10 wing and hoped it would do.
It has poor fuel burn and range.

Heh, but then again... Airbus are good at promising things and delivering short. You could have a point.

[Jim236]

Mark I think I'd know a little bit more about Dublin Airport and Aer Lingus than you do, and thats pretty obvious from your rediculous statement above.

Jim - where are you hearing your stories from?

First of all - Dublin airport fastest growing airport?? It's a bloody kip!!

Dublin International Airport was in 2004 Europe's fastest growing airport. I admit I'm actually wrong in saying it currently is as now Shannon International Airport is Europe's fastest growing airport of 2005. But one indication that Dublin Airport is growing very fast is that the IAA have had to reduce horizontal separation between aircraft from 5nm to 3nm in order to handle all of the incoming and outgoing traffic.
But Dublin Airport is in no way a kip as you put it. I'd bet you've never even been but you think you've still got the right to comment on such an obnoxious and arrogant way. IMO Dublin Airport is very modern and although security may be an issue, everyone there is still very helpful and the services are great and I've never once had a problem in that airport unlike airports such as Paris-CDG, London-Heathrow and Barcelona where I've had lost baggage or baggage not being transferred properly and extremely inadequate service. So as far as I'm concerned, Dublin Airport deserves recognition for its services and it got it last year!

Aer Lingus don't use 747s for years and then suddenly when they aim more everyday to become a LOCO they start buying the biggest plane in the world?!

Aer Lingus are ONLY LCC on European routes and its planned to stay that way. Aer Lingus wouldn't be allowed to go LCC for any routes outside of Europe and I highly doubt they would either.

The plans you mention of the construction of the new terminal are not as advanced as you make out either.

Funny how you can comment on Dublin's new terminal as no plans have been released to the public yet, probably the reason for this is because they've not finished designing it yet, nor deciding the site for construction so you can't comment.
I've been told by several sources that they will be accomodating the A380 in the future but thats not to say they'll actually get the A380 flying there.

As it stands anyway DUB could not facilitate a 380.

Well done for stating the obvious. I've already stated that about 3 times.

Before they buy new aircraft, I think that EI have to define its product, is it a LOCO or a Flag carrier? Premier class is gone on most routes, they wont fly coffins and they even have to give a phonetic version of the gaelic passenger briefing to the Flight Attendants, so whatever happened to the Irish colleens smile?

Wtf? Thats biggest load of :mad: I've ever read.
Get your facts straight for one thing. Aer Lingus went back on their policy and they now fly coffins.
And in case your're not aware, the Irish language is a dieing language among the public and is rarely spoken outside the Western region of Ireland. So flight attendants do need those cards.
And as far as I'm concerned, those flight attendants still have that traditional Irish smile they're famous for.
I've flown on Aer Lingus many times and have never once had a problem with the cabin crew and they were always very friendly and and helpful.
And on another note, again Aer Lingus are only LCC in Europe and no where else. On trans-atlantic routes, they provide excellent service and its definitly to BA standard but your probably like Mark Noble in knockin it before tryin' it.

But one thing to mention though is that the A380 has very low maintenance costs compared to a plane like the 747-400

Where did you get the figures from? Are they based on mx costs divided by 800 seats?

I got them from Airbus so take up your disbelief with them.
No airline will actually order the full 800 seats yeah idiot. I've already explained the reasons for this before so try go and reading previous posts before jumping to conclusions.

So Airbus send out inspectors to make sure that Aer Lingus are using all their A320's. What complete and utter rubbish.

No ya stupid twit, try reading my post and you'll know what I mean. But for the benefit of such airheads like yourself, I'll explain it again. If Aer Lingus were to actually order some A380's in the future then they'd want a discount of course like any airline would. To get this discount they've bought a lot of A320's but these have now replaced their 737's so theres no problem with that but for them to benefit from a future discount Airbus sends over inspectors to see that they're using all of their planes and not just buying loads of them for a discount(which they are) but Aer Lingus make it seem like they're not. Might seem like rubbish to you but believe it or not its true.

To be fair, the MD-11 flopped because McDonnell failed to make it perform to the gaurantess given.
They simply stuck wingtips on the DC-10 wing and hoped it would do.
It has poor fuel burn and range.

Yeah thats true, McDonnell Douglas did rush the project a lot and I'd say maybe if they spent more time at it, they'd have had a better and more economical product and they probably wouldn't be out of business today.

[Bmused55]

I got them from Airbus so take up your disbelief with them.
No airline will actually order the full 800 seats yeah idiot. I've already explained the reasons for this before so try go and reading previous posts before jumping to conclusions.

Ah see, thats where you went wrong mate. Never trust what Airbus has on their website... its all PR and highly warped.

Airbuses "cheaper to operate" claims are based on it being full with 800 seats.
Its operating economics are based on every seat being filled. To put it simply... a less than full a380 looses a lot of its supposed advantages.

The airlines that have ordered it so far have done so as they are getting them for ridiculously low prices
Read here (http://www.businessweek.com/2001/01_10/b3722108.htm)
Thus they can afford the luxury of just 300 or 400 seats in them for the time being. But as oil prices rise... they'll soon fill them to the hilt with seats. That is of course if they do not cancel their orders should Airbus realy screw up and fail to meet performance gaurantees, which they shown to have a penchant for doing.

[Kestrel_909]

Jim said;
Mark I think I'd know a little bit more about Dublin Airport and Aer Lingus than you do, and thats pretty abvious from your rediculous statement above.

Spare us the arrogance in future and why would anyone believe what you say when you cannot even spell?


This whole thread seems like someone put 2+2 together and got 6, never mind 5.

[GOH]

Jim236,

The only A380 offered is the A380-800 and like we have seen with the 737-600 and the A318 the reduction in capacity is not in the same proportion as the costs and so it can sometimes be more cost effective to operate say the A319 or 737-700 if we apply the same logic to the A380, the 700 might not be cost effective with it becoming more difficult to cut weight and thus operating costs. Obviously you cant always rely with what you read on PPRuNe but at least take it on board, for example someone has claimed to have spoken to an airbus engineer about it being impossible to make an A380-700 and although it may not be true it remains interesting in this argument.

I have traveled through a few airports and I can safely say Dublin isn’t the best airport however it is clearly not the worst (I am using personal experience), I would rank it somewhere in the middle with airports like Hong Kong and Singapore being first, Dublin and Perth in the middle and then London Heathrow :D .

I find your posts quite humorous and I really wonder why no one has questioned your facts, where are all these press releases of Aer Lingus supposedly coming to Australia, Asia, and South Africa ect! I would really love to see Aer Lingus colors in Australia (of course Perth :ok: ) and I would go out of my way to travel them home however I think it is ridiculous to think that they would even consider it. How do I get to Ireland when I am returning home? There are many choices but the most obvious would be to use their oneworld partners like British Airways, Cathay Pacific or Qantas via Singapore or Hong Kong connecting with a number of cities in Europe and onto Dublin flying Aer Lingus. Ireland may have a relatively large population in Australia but I doubt they would be able to support Aer Lingus' future services. If that was the case why doesn’t Air France fly to Australia, why doesn’t Lufthansa or KLM for example fly to Australia? Because there probably isn’t enough of a market and so they code share. (Although Aer Lingus doesn’t do this, perhaps they should?)

Aer Lingus Long Haul isn’t exactly the best with passengers having the purchase alcohol, the IFE is inadequate with only one aircraft having PTV's with the rest using main screens, the food is also said to be of low quality. In that respect I would say they are not as good as other European carriers, and perhaps on par with some US carriers. Maybe you could take a look at Skytrax and read people’s views on Aer Lingus in comparison to other carriers?

I really doubt that Aer Lingus would ever get the A380 full stop. Smaller versions or not. As CM_Falcon has mentioned, Aer Lingus only carry 327 passengers on their aircraft and if they were to operate A380's we'll presume they would be configured at say around 550 like other airlines in a Three or four class lay out (even though Aer Lingus have been cutting down the amount of classes they offer...) that is a significant jump in capacity. If there is that much capacity what is wrong with EI management that they haven’t added capacity? Could it be that the demand isn’t there? :eek:

Also you mentioned before that Aer Lingus have managed to avoid the the Shannon stop over, but that was only because the flights were operated as charters... so your claims are incorrect.

I won’t even go near the idea that Airbus sends inspectors to see if the aircraft are being utilized :yuk:

In contrast to most of the above that I have said, I really like Aer Lingus and totally agree with you that they still have the traditional Irish Smile even with the in flight cuts and I will continue to fly with them for that sole reason (plus the fact there Irish :ok: )

As for the squabbling...can we not have a proper discussion?

GOH

[BOAC]

Along with PPP's editing I have deleted a couple of the less-sensible recent posts here and ask Jim236 to chill out for a moment before posting again in the same manner?

It would be nice to keep this on the AL/Airbus topic rather than on mental instability:{

[Kestrel_909]

Jim,
Sorry if I offended you with an earlier post, but it really does annoy me when attitudes turn to name calling and personal insults.

[Jim236]

I too apologise for what I've said to others on here.

@GOH
I can't give you a link to any of these press releases but I've spent a qhile searching for them but to no avail. I assure I DID hear them announced by Aer Lingus on RTE News.
I can't tell you why Lufthansa or Air France haven't flown to Australia yet but maybe its just that there isn't a market there for them? I can tell you however that KLM's routes are chosen by Air France as they own 86% of the airline.
But why should this stop Aer Lingus who are an Irish airline and not French, Dutch or German?!
Also Aer Lingus have made attempts to increase seats and save money at the same time by getting rid of their food galleys and replacing them with seats.
And they are only able to fit 327 on their A330's but I'm sure if they had more seats they'd fill them very fast but theres a difference between the two.

Also you mentioned before that Aer Lingus have managed to avoid the the Shannon stop over, but that was only because the flights were operated as charters... so your claims are incorrect.

I can assure you my claims are not incorrect but if you think your're right then please explain to me why Aer Lingus fly directly to LA and Chicago from Dublin without going through Shannon? And these routes are not charters and are flown all year-round.

On a final note I've flown with many airlines such as BA, Alitalia, BMI, Iberia, Air France but Aer Lingus to me always seems to be the best by far and probably because they're Irish but in saying that, I'm not too fond of Ryanair so Aer Lingus obviously have something about them that makes them so great for me. They also got Airline of the Year 2005 award this year and they defintitly deserve it for how far they've come since 2001 when they narrowly escaped bankruptcy. Whatever about their future long haul fleet and them buying A380's, I can't see them getting 777's either as Aer Lingus want to maintain a one type fleet and to do this the only Boeing plane they could get would be a 787 which is fly-by-wire and has a cockpit similar to that of an Airbus so it'd be easy to train pilots with.

Again I apologise for any offence I caused and I think my above statement is a fair one and should not offend anyone and I'm pretty sure most of what I've said above and in previous statements is true and most of it is what I've been told by Aer Lingus and SR Technics staff.

[Sky_Captain]

Here Here BOAC,

Speaking of EI / Airbus, I've been speaking with a few friends flying for them, who tell me there is a possible boeing offer there to replace the A330's with B777's and B787's. Seemingly the offer is something along the line of taking on the 777's first and then replacing some of them with the 787 when it is completed.

Again this is all rumour, but it sounds like a nice rumour ;)

S.C. :ok:

[mutt]

OK I concede the fact that they changed their mind about coffins :) But I still dont understand why they got rid of Premier !

I remember when one had to have leaving cert Gaelic to be allowed apply to EI, guess that times are changing. I first flew on EI 25 years ago, so I guess that I am qualified to say that the Irish smile isnt always there anymore!

As for the A380 costs, strangely enough I have had some nice salespeople trying to sell them to me~!

Have a nice day!

Mutt.

[Mark Noble]

Lads can I just say on behalf of every other Irish person on this website. We're not all like Jim.

A few things:

"Mark I think I'd know a little bit more about Dublin Airport and Aer Lingus than you do, and thats pretty obvious from your rediculous statement above."

And why's that?

No I've never been in Dublin airport. I've only lived in Dublin the last 24 years. :rolleyes:

So "nobody" knows anything about the new terminal, but you do? Riiiiiiiiight.

Jim try having at look at LHR and LAX, just two examples of huge airports and then you will realise what a joke DUB is. Sure, it might have a few new fixtures and fittings but it's still the same old, same old. If the only thing you can think of when I say DUB is not up to scratch it security issues then you've a long way to go.

You're telling everyone in this thread that they're wrong and YOU'RE right (including pilots it would seem!!) and all this because you're qualified in it all just from sitting out in the Naul gazing at the planes coming into land????

Get a grip.

Can we all get back to reality now? EI will not be ordering A380s. End of.

[Bmused55]

And EI 777 sure would look nice. I still have trouble believing they'd even consider it. A 787 would look equally as nice.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4370/ei7777876oq.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ei7777876oq.jpg)

[Sky_Captain]

And EI 777 sure would look nice. I still have trouble believing they'd even consider it.
As somebody said earlier, its about fuel saving these days, and in particular for EI its about cost savings. From what I hear the 787 is the best idea for most of the US routes, and the 777 ideal for JFK and any future 12 hour plus long haul routes.

Great picture by the way Bmused, looks good in the green :O

S.C. :ok:

[Jim236]

ads can I just say on behalf of every other Irish person on this website. We're not all like Jim.

A few things:

"Mark I think I'd know a little bit more about Dublin Airport and Aer Lingus than you do, and thats pretty obvious from your rediculous statement above."

And why's that?

No I've never been in Dublin airport. I've only lived in Dublin the last 24 years.

So "nobody" knows anything about the new terminal, but you do? Riiiiiiiiight.

Jim try having at look at LHR and LAX, just two examples of huge airports and then you will realise what a joke DUB is. Sure, it might have a few new fixtures and fittings but it's still the same old, same old. If the only thing you can think of when I say DUB is not up to scratch it security issues then you've a long way to go.

You're telling everyone in this thread that they're wrong and YOU'RE right (including pilots it would seem!!) and all this because you're qualified in it all just from sitting out in the Naul gazing at the planes coming into land????

Get a grip.

Can we all get back to reality now? EI will not be ordering A380s. End of.

Here I've already admitted some of what I said is untrue and apologised for offending people with what I said above so don't have a fit at me!
I'm not always right and neither is anyone on here. I apologise for undermining you and only said it as a spur of the moment reply. But your're doing just that to me now by saying
"You're telling everyone in this thread that they're wrong and YOU'RE right (including pilots it would seem!!) and all this because you're qualified in it all just from sitting out in the Naul gazing at the planes coming into land????"
So my point, like the one you've just made, is that I know a lot more than you think and my interest in aviation is rarely spent gazing at planes landing and taking off.

AND I never said nobody knew anything about the new terminal and other than me.
Your're saying the new terminal will be nothing new, I'm saying from what I've heard fby Aer Lingus management, The Dublin Airport Fire Chief ans SR Technics that it will be a big thing and will have improved services and be able to accomodate large jets for the future but I only implied that as an indication. If you've heard otherwise by all of the same management above then fine, its obviously all unfactual bull****. You've done the same with the suggestion of Aer Lingus getting some A380's in the future by throwing it out the window and dismissing it straight away.

And lastly. Why do you think you, out of all Irish on here, that you can speak on behalf of them and single me out to be this nobody who knows all and is talking complete crap?
This is one of the first topics I've posted on this forum so you have no place commenting on me, do you see me doing this to you?

So maybe beforing telling other people to get a grip you should take a good look at yourself in future!


So, after BOAC gives a warning YOU think its OK to swear. Wrong! You can't and I removed the offending passage. The next to be removed might be you. I am giving you a bit of leeway as you are new but do NOT abuse and insult other people. They have an opinion too!

PPP

[minuteman]

Fact: No EI A380s any time soon

Fact: No Airbus inspectors checking out A320 utilisation :} (possibly the funniest thing I've heard in a long time!)

Fact: DUB terminal facilities are far from adequate

Fact: New 28R won't be long enough for either fully loaded 747-400 or A380

Fact: No 22 new routes in the States unless something very major happens.....not likely!

Fact: The MCO flight routes through SNN on the return leg, even though it is a charter. The ORD flight originates in SNN. The LAX flight only goes direct because every BOS flight goes through SNN.

Fact: Minimum 2 years before EI gets floated anywhere!

Fact: EI Premier on the Atlantic doesn't hold a candle to BA Club

What else you got Jim?

[Mark Noble]

Jim I'm not even going to bother getting into a tit for tat with you. I'm here with a view to becoming a pilot not arguing with someone who seems to be still wet behind the ears (judging by your grammar and spelling) and who is even inventing things that people have "said" in their reply.

I was talking about the current terminal in DUB when referring to fixtures and fittings and being same old, I didn't mention anything to do with the new building apart from the fact that nobody knows little about it yet.

"you're saying the new terminal will be nothing new" ...eh no, I didn't.

"And lastly. Why do you think you, out of all Irish on here, that you can speak on behalf of them and single me out to be this nobody who knows f**k all and is talking complete crap?"

I didn't say you were talking complete crap (but now that you mention it). I said not everyone is like you as in not everyone is so arrogant and unable to admit that they don't know it all.

I might point out that a lot of what you've said here is based on meeting someone while planespotting who claimed that their father was a driver for Aer Lingus? That person could've been some utter waffler who dreams of flying planes but in fact has nothing to do with it.

Now Jesus for the sake of us all, give it a rest will you.

[Jim236]

Fact: No EI A380s any time soon

Well done for stating facts!

[/quote]Fact: No Airbus inspectors checking out A320 utilisation (possibly the funniest thing I've heard in a long time!)[/quote]

Fair enough, most likely untrue and shouldn't have said it was.

Fact: DUB terminal facilities are far from adequate

Thats a matter of opinion but I don't agree.

Fact: New 28R won't be long enough for either fully loaded 747-400 or A380

Maybe not but as I've said, whats to stop the DAA from upgrading it in the future?

Fact: No 22 new routes in the States unless something very major happens.....not likely!

Take your disbelief up with Aer Lingus as its their words, not mine.

Fact: The MCO flight routes through SNN on the return leg, even though it is a charter. The ORD flight originates in SNN. The LAX flight only goes direct because every BOS flight goes through SNN.

I never commented on the MCO route but the Chicago route actually does go directly from Dublin and not Shannon.

Fact: Minimum 2 years before EI gets floated anywhere!

True but whats your point?

Fact: EI Premier on the Atlantic doesn't hold a candle to BA Club

Well I think its nearly up there at those standards but again its a matter of opinion.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////
I was talking about the current terminal in DUB when referring to fixtures and fittings and being same old

I never said you weren't

"you're saying the new terminal will be nothing new" ...eh no, I didn't.

The plans you mention of the construction of the new terminal are not as advanced as you make out either.

Ring a bell no?

I didn't say you were talking complete crap (but now that you mention it). I said not everyone is like you as in not everyone is so arrogant and unable to admit that they don't know it all.

Look at my above post which you obviously haven't already and you'll find that I admitted to exactly that! But you seem to be only looking for certain things in my posts such as incorrect facts for some reason.

Jim I'm not even going to bother getting into a tit for tat with you. I'm here with a view to becoming a pilot not arguing with someone who seems to be still wet behind the ears (judging by your grammar and spelling) and who is even inventing things that people have "said" in their reply., I didn't mention anything to do with the new building apart from the fact that nobody knows little about it yet.

How can you not think that along with more of your previous statements are not arrogant? You seriously need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror because your're not as great as your're trying to make yourself out to be and as far as I'm concerned your're the biggest embarrasment to the Irish than anyone else in this topic!

[Bmused55]

Sky_Captain : As somebody said earlier, its about fuel saving these days, and in particular for EI its about cost savings. From what I hear the 787 is the best idea for most of the US routes, and the 777 ideal for JFK and any future 12 hour plus long haul routes.

Great picture by the way Bmused, looks good in the green

Very good point. I should have remembered what I posted earlier ... lol

Glad you like the picture. A little something I did a while back for another forum.

[minuteman]

Right:

1. Your atttitude is the same attitude that landed us with the current inadequately long runway. The plans drawn up are for a runway that isn't long enough. Go ask the DAA!

2. There will be no extra routes into the States unless the USA agree to change the bilateral. Regardless of what Aer Lingus say. And the US officials only want to talk to the EU about Open Skies.

3. The ORD flight routes SNN-DUB-ORD and v.v. thereby complying with the stopover.

4. If EI is not floated for another 2 years there will be no capital injection to buy the shiny new airplanes you have gone on about!

Now what else?

[Mark Noble]

And here's Jim's new A380. :p

http://www.jediman.free-online.co.uk/childrenstv/Collectables/Jimbo%20and%20the%20Jetset%20Book%201990.jpg

[Jim236]

Keep up the mature act lads! :ok:

[Mark Noble]

I'm not sure if the shamrock on the tanker is any significance to EI but I'll add it in anyway!

http://80scartoons.co.uk/jimbo5.jpg

[Jim236]

Well I have to give it to ya. Not only have you turned this topic into a joke but you've made yourself out to be one too! Well done!!!;)

[Mark Noble]

Jim, the joke started in your first post in the thread...how many more people do you want to shoot your points down for you??

[Bmused55]

LMAO at Mark!

HA HA!!

( the jimbo pictures I mean)

[Mark Noble]

What I wanna know is who even rated this thread on a one??? :ooh:

[Jim236]

Well Mark if you ever do become a commercial pilot in the future, be sure to apply for Ryanair as they're always welcoming to people like yourself(.ie an arrogant b***ocks) and I'm sure you'd get along quite well with O'Leary too.:D

[Mark Noble]

It's funny you should say that...they'll be my first port of call if I'm ever lucky enough to get there as I'd like to be based in Dublin. Who knows, maybe we'll have an airport I can be proud of then!

If you're ever on a FR flight in a few years and you hear me introduce myself as the FO, ask a FA can you go up to the flight deck and I'll be able to show you what all the buttons do.

[Jim236]

If you're ever on a FR flight in a few years and you hear me introduce myself as the FO, ask a FA can you go up to the flight deck and I'll be able to show you what all the buttons do.

Ah funny man...NOT. Believe me Mark if I heard you were the FO on the same flight I was on, I'd be off the plane in a flash!

[Kestrel_909]

Best of luck with your aspirations Mark!
Hope it works out for you.


Edit. Jim, now grow up! I hear it's a beautiful day outside in Ireland, go out and enjoy it, stop the childish bickering, there is enough of it already.

[Jim236]

Best of luck with your aspirations Mark!
Hope it works out for you.


Edit. Jim, now grow up! I hear it's a beautiful day outside in Ireland, go out and enjoy it, stop the childish bickering, there is enough of it already.

... The most pointless crap I've read so far in this topic. How people like yarselves are taken seriously is beyond me and this forum is a complete joke along with everyone on it, bloody sad.:rolleyes:

[Mark Noble]

You're dam right it's a nice day here...not a cloud in the sky. God bless laptops and wireless routers.

I'm off out for a run now so don't have too much for me to reply to when I get home Jim, ok.

And yeh, without a doubt, every member of PPRUNE is a joke. ;)

[Kestrel_909]

... The most pointless crap I've read so far in this topic. How people like yarselves are taken seriously is beyond me and this forum is a complete joke along with everyone on it, bloody sad.

Welcome to the club then! I'm assuming you've joined since you've stuck around.:ok:

[Bmused55]

oi vey

I was enjoying that little debate...

[akerosid]

Can we get this thread back on track; there are lots of extremely important issues to debate in relation to Irish aviation and unfortunately, vision is in short supply (at official level).

I've just been reading in the news that talks about the site for the new terminal is still being decided. So, if I may ask, WHAT was the government deliberating on for nearly six months. Sadly, it seems to have been trying to square the different POLITICAL motives, NOT actually much to do with aviation per se or our need for an intelligent, vision driven aviation policy. No chance of that with this lot. It would be comical if it weren't so serious; we read about the Indian civil service holding AI's fleet plans for months with silly bureaucracy, but we don't need that. We have all the obstructions we need at political level, and mostly it's by inaction and disinterest.

But let's move on; I think it was Mark who said that the new runway (not expected to open until 2012!) won't be long enough to handle the 744/380. What about the current one? 8,650'. Not even enough for a 777! And absolutely no interest or intention in increasing it. How much is that going to cost us over the next few years.

As for the US, it looks like the EU/US might be able to do a deal later this year, but what about Canada? A potentially very good market, but obstructed by a very outdated bilateral.

There is so much potential for Irish aviation to be a superb catalyst for economic growth, but it's obstructed by a complete lack of political interest. That's our No1 challenge.

As for EI and A380s, forget about it; my guess is 787-900s and 777s as an interim, but it's extremely difficult for EI to plan now, because it doesn't really know when it'll need the aircraft. Hopefully Mannion will beef up the service quality; whatever about transatlantic routes, they'll be cut to pieces if they go onto Asian routes with a second rate service product.

[Mark Noble]

akerosid - some interesting points.

Must be nearly 2 years ago now, O'Leary offered to pay for every brick needed and said he would build a new terminal once Aer Rianta were not involved.

Now possibly if it had've happened he would've charged you for taking a leak in the toilets in the new terminal but you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. The new building would probably be almost completed at this stage.

I'm not sure if that project would've had any intention to accomodate larger aircraft either though as I can't see FR going any bigger than Airbuses in the very distant future.

[Sky_Captain]

Mark & Jim, Might I suggest Jet Blast for your little bout, us "sad" people do at times like to stick to the topic.

Akerosid, pleasure as always to hear your comments, Think the current runway should be left alone for now, and development of a new longer parallel runway should commence. Did you catch the article in the Irish Times about Aer Lingus proposing to fund and build the new terminal, the one the goverment said it is going to build with the DAA :{ The Article mentioned that the goverment liked this proposal, while the DAA did not want to comment.
As for the 777's, I still think they might be able to manage a MTOW take off from Dublin, it's generally landing distance that is the problem, but I know you looked into this in another post, so correct me if I am wrong.

S.C. :ok:

[Mark Noble]

Only one person calling anyone said Cpt. and it wasn't me!!

But yes I for one would like to start talking normally again, as per my last post.

[akerosid]

Thanks, Sky_captain!

I saw the minister talking about the whole terminal thing; he was an interviewed about the whole airport thing and suggested that the idea of EI (or FR) operating a terminal was mischievous. He is certainly against airlines operating terminals.

As for the runway, the new runway is unlikely to be open until 2012, so that's seven years. I really see no prospect of that being brought forward. A 777 would have a to knock a good 20-30t off its MTOW to operate from 28, so that's really not an option. It could just about make HKG.

We could "get by" with the runway as it is, but I think as a country, we're past the stage where we should be happy with just "getting by". The current runway is too short. Period. For t/a flights, it's fine, but if EI wants to fly to Asia, then it'll have problems. The A330-200 could probably do HKG, so I guess that's the baseline they'll use, but let's take a wider view. The government recently issued an Asia Strategy Report, which had some very interesting ambitions and targets, all very creditable - but no recognition of what would be needed to achieve these (i.e. transport links etc.) This should have been part of it; for something as important as this, there needs to be co-ordination, but did we see it? Of course not. There's no vision from "on high", so the civil service doesn't feel under any pressure to deliver.

If the runway could be extended to a decent length, a top class regional hub like Seoul could come into range from DUB; nonstop. Now, you may think that's ambitious, but if you want to be competitive, you've got to reduce transport costs. Airlines spend billions on long haul aircraft, so they're not going to want to fly to places where the performance of their aircraft is limited (e.g. above - SQ's 777s have an MTOW of 297t, so why operate from an airport where that's cut by 30t?!). The worry is that over the next few years, our economy might be hit by an international economic slowdown or downturn; if our competitive position is undermined by poor vision, a lack of planning or potential being undermined by these shortcomings, we're going to suffer more than is necessary. By creating opportunities rather than restricting them and anticipating what we need to do to ensure we can access new markets more economically, we can achieve a lot, but you can go blue in the face (trust me, I know) trying to get this message across and the interest JUST ISN'T THERE.

We can make aviation serve our economic needs much more efficiently, but it's going to need the swift application of pitchforks to buttocks to get it to happen. It needs that level of pressure; an "either do it or your fired" approach. This govt by consensus stuff is complete BS as far as aviation is concerned. It's just a shield for a lack of interest and putting political survival ahead of national economic needs.

Oh yes and I'd still like to EI A380s. ;) :p

[mutt]

akerosid,

There are a lot of airlines computing on the LHR- Asia routes, I would have thought that at least one of them would have analyzed the benefits of flying into Dublin, the fact that none of them are operating the route leads me to believe that:

1: They haven’t analyzed the route.
2: They have analyzed it and realized that the market isn’t there!

What do you think?

Mutt

[MarkD]

Dublin:
The fact is that Dublin Airport cannot operate legitimately as a major European airport until every passenger can transfer airside to another aircraft if they so wish.

Already DAA are muttering about increasing charges to fund 10L/28R so it looks like DUB will be fast approaching YYZ fees except we can't expect something like YYZ T1 for the money that will be spent!

Dublin at present does not fit the bill. Until then the connecting traffic to put 555+ (and in an EI config it will be "+") passengers on an A380-800 is going to be tough.

Aer Lingus:
EI's policy since 2000 or so has been to reduce fleet types to condense fleet training and have fewer spare crew and spares. F50/146/73x all chopped, now just 32x/33x. Any new type will incur an initial cost and an ongoing cost where commonality with the existing types is not present. Unless Airbus will pick up the tab for a lot of the initial cost that is a big burden for EI.

Jim posits the new money will pay for all this. The new investment money will be a good thing if:
(a) it ever happens at all
(b) the investment groups aren't frightened off by EI's continual fights with the unions, their proximity to MOL, their primary base at a hodgepodge like DUB and the fact that even when .gov.ie has sold the last share they will still probably find ways to legislatively hobble them (as Air Canada is with the Public Participation Act).

The 777/787 order, replacing the 333/332 as it will, is very like the situation at AC. A viable proposition likely to be screwed because of management mishandling of one or more union groups.

A380-700:
The next A380 model will be the -900 if it ever happens, because EK is on record as wanting it and they will want more than three if they start writing cheques.

The development cycle for Airbus at present means this project must take its place in the queue behind A388 delivery, A350 development, A330K, A400M, all of which are approved projects.

More important than 387 in the to-do list is 320NG and it would be folly of Airbus to behave otherwise, although their ceding of the 310 market to the 783 was a surprise.

A 387 would be too close to the heavy 773s and 747A to repay development costs - the 388 is having enough trouble in this department.

Four engines for longhaul is on the way out unless a couple of 359s or 773ERs go down in the far out Pacific or catastrophic problems are found with 100k lb+ engines. Not likely but not impossible. I'm going with not likely.

[Bmused55]

although their ceding of the 310 market to the 783 was a surprise.

That happened because they were too busy rubbishing the 787 and not paying attention to what exactly the latter is being targeted at.

Besides... the A380 has kept them uber busy.

[Sky_Captain]

Mutt, from what I hear BMI have looked at operating long haul out of Ireland, not sure about asia but there is talk of using DUB for their current roiutes and saving money on slots and fees at LHR.

The fact is that Dublin Airport cannot operate legitimately as a major European airport until every passenger can transfer airside to another aircraft if they so wish.
The fact is that Dublin Airport cannot operate legitimately as a major European airport until every passenger can transfer airside to another aircraft if they so wish.
ery true, and can not happen in the current terminal, imagine what will (or wont be) able to happen in the new terminal.

Akerosid, I think we should all just move out of Ireland. Your in Jersey right, whats it like over there?

S.C.:ok:

[Kestrel_909]

If they decided to extend the current 29/11, it would allow 28/10 to remain fully operational until complete, and then think about extending 28 when you have another runway for all to use.

Whatever happens, a longer runway is years off yet.

[Caslance]

That happened because they were too busy rubbishing the 787 and not paying attention to what exactly the latter is being targeted at.Perhaps you'd care to share your source for this remarkable insight?

[Bmused55]

Still asking the obvious questions eh?


Well, to humor you, the answer is: Common sense.

Look at Airbus's attitude towards the 7e7/787 until they launched the A350.

"The A330 will suffice"
"A re-engined A330 is all we need"
etc

Then, we have the A380. A huge project in more ways than one, and it willl have occupied a good deal of their strategists, engineers and such.

Common sense tells you that the huge A380 project, coupled with their disbeleif in the validity of the 7e7/787 led to them loosing sight of its intended markets.

Boeing did much the same with the advent of the A320. They were too busy buring their heads in the sand to realise it was a good project.

How refreshing it is to know you can't censor me here :ok:

[Caslance]

Common sense. So you've no actual source from within the industry to quote to back your assertions up then? Interesting.

How refreshing it is to know you can't censor me hereOh, do grow up - there's a good fellow. It's exactly that sort of silly little jibe that caused your problems In Another Place.

[Bmused55]

Yes, I do actualy have a source, but this sort of thing is not written down on a website for the all to read.

But again, like on your forum, all you do is pick a word or two, form an opinion and disregard the rest of the explination. How about you actualy read what I've said, and check it out for yourself.

[Caslance]

Swift edit, pal..... a very good move indeed. :hmm:

Now, to return to matters that are worthy of attention........

Provided that the runway and terminal at DUB were extended/improved there's no actual concrete reason why EI couldn't order and operate a number of A380s at some future date, is there?

They don't currently operate any large Boeing types - but do operate the A320, A 321 and A330 so one might reasonably think that Airbus would have at least a slight edge in any future wide-body procurement by EI.

Having said that, I personally think we'll see the A380 in Ryanair livery before we'll see it in Aer Lingus livery. :ok:

[Bmused55]

Personally I think we'll see the A380 in Ryanair livery before we see it in Aer Lingus livery.

for once... we agree

[d2k73]

I think it was Mark who said that the new runway (not expected to open until 2012!) won't be long enough to handle the 744/380

Christ will us irish ever learn!!! Take the M50 for example, built to deal with the volume of traffic at the time it was built and the planners didnt even forcast what traffic would be using it in the years to come, it looks like we're making the same mistake with 28R!!

[akerosid]

Hi all,

It is a disgrace, as Mark D. says, that you can't transfer from one flight to another at DUB unless you go landside. It's even more amazing that in all the furore over security queues a few weeks back, that barely got a mention!

As for Asia, Mutt, I think a lot of airlines have taken the view that Ireland is a relatively small market best served out of London. There have been a few problems for us here; firstly, the two biggest carriers on routes to Asia have been BA/QF, neither of which would be likely to operate directly to DUB - certainly with 744s. QF might look at it if it got 772s, but I'm not holding my breath and of course, we can't wait for them. Other airlines like SQ and MH have looked and I think they came to the conclusion that the business wasn't there. However, I know for a fact that DUB is on EK's list. I've had that confirmation from the airline itself (and I've lobbied them fairly strongly).

As for EI, I think the Boeing types are the best; the A350 just leaves me cold. They seem to make up the figures as they go along. The 787 is wider; it's a completely new design and not just a rehash of an existing (admittedly excellent) fuselage design. The 787 uses new, lightweight technology and given Boeing's recent aggressiveness (with AI and AC - and I think AC will eventually do a deal), it won't let EI go without a big fight. There is a curious position re EI, in that because of the doubt over the whole Shannon stopover thing and the "imminent" EU/US deal, EI will need to react quickly and get aircraft at possibly short notice if it gets the green light. Now, as we know, A330s and 777s are thin on the ground, so the winning manufacturer may well be the one which makes sure EI gets the acft it needs when it needs them.

Which brings me to bmi/Virgin. I see a UK airline (possibly others) taking advantage of the new open skies deal; I don't think it will be BD, since they have an acft shortage. I do, however, see a distinct possibility that VS could be interested and this happened, VS would tear strips off EI, on quality grounds.

[Caslance]

Interesting point about VS.

After all, how difficult would it really be to pack a couple of A340s or B747s off to Filton for a repaint and to set up "Virgin Ireland" , complete with shamrocks, blarney and extra leprechauns?

Branson would revel in it. He'd probably dye his beard green for the launch party. :ooh:

[near enuf is good enuf]

GF to start Bah - Dub from the 1st of December!
Not long now and we will have EK out of DXB and lots o choices to get home for a great big dirty black pint!:ok:

[Kestrel_909]

But we have already seen Virgin red and green do not mix :yuk:

Unless BD get their hands on more RR power A330s, would they even consider longhaul from DUB?

[PPRuNe Pop]

You have a few posts to bring this topic back to a level that removes childish rants, bickering and backbiting - not to mention abuse and insults.

I have removed Jim from the argument and Bmused55 is pushing it - and you can be censored! Gentlemen, behave like one please.

PPP

[mscar]

hmmm interesting discussion you got here casab et al.
Please allow me to put forward my understanding of this topic and respond if I need correcting!
It seems to me three main arguments against A380 procurement have been outined here
i)procurement cost
ii)home market
iii)infrastructure at our capitals airport.

At the moment with Aerlingus making net profits below 5 million for last year with a relatively high load factor it seems to me that A380 procurement would be out of the question for quite a while. A jump from 290 seats to 555 seats would probably not be favoured unless a substantial increase in market happens to ensure high load factors rem.Possibly this could happen if they opened new routes to lets says south east Asia,oceania.
But then this does open the question as to where these 560 tonne jets could fly from.Dublin? a recent Airbus study suggested that runway slabs would experience stress and strain levels close to those of the A340-600 so perhaps runway strength at Dublin would be adequate.
Perhaps if the infrastructure is adapted.I dont know whether this would require runway dimensions to be changed but it is expensive.BAA the Heathrow operators estimated spending at some $772 million to reposition taxiways and rebuild Pier 6 to accommodate the A380 and its passengers. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey expected to spend in excess of $179 million on airside improvements at JFK, a figure that does not include terminal costs.
For dublin the extra cost of repositioning groundmanouvering signage ,and lighting perhaps would push the cost beyond reason.Somewhat I don't think our government would be willing to cash that cheque.This leaves Shannon as an option.Its certainly is long enough ,but would the cost of infrastructure costs justify its developement into some sort of irish hub?
Perhaps with the current market and load factors Aerlingus should stick to A330 or possibly A350 aircraft when they debut at the end of this decade?
These are merely questions and pleasecorrect me if I seem wrong - in reason and with the proper backup of course :=

[Bmused55]

You have a few posts to bring this topic back to a level that removes childish rants, bickering and backbiting - not to mention abuse and insults.

I have removed Jim from the argument and Bmused55 is pushing it - and you can be censored! Gentlemen, behave like one please.

PPP


Oh I am aware of that... just not from caslance.

[qwertyuiop]

EI to get A380? Don't make me laugh!

The A380 is designed to go from large hub to large hub carrying many people. EI are a "point to point" airline. The smaller 787 is much more suitable.

[Mark Noble]

"After all, how difficult would it really be to pack a couple of A340s or B747s off to Filton for a repaint and to set up "Virgin Ireland" , complete with shamrocks, blarney and extra leprechauns?

Branson would revel in it. He'd probably dye his beard green for the launch party"

Funny cause it's true...I can just see the beard now :p

[MarkD]

actually the Bearded One has already done the green Virgin thing.

If the Virgin Pacific thing doesn't come off there may be 340-300s looking for homes as the 346 and 380s are delivered - one of them (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/866288/M/) is now calling LOS home!

[mutt]

Bearded One has already done the green Virgin thing

The bearded one also tried Virgin Ireland with Club Travel, not to mention Virgin Express Shannon, so who knows, 3rd time lucky :):)

Mutt

[Sky_Captain]

Don't forget his attempts to code share with Virgin Cityjet back in 1994..... I'll let you guys see the photo's on airliners :p

Which brings me to bmi/Virgin. I see a UK airline (possibly others) taking advantage of the new open skies deal; I don't think it will be BD, since they have an acft shortage. I do, however, see a distinct possibility that VS could be interested Sorry akerosid, I have to disagree, I don't think Branson will bother with the restrictions on the size of his aircraft.

GF to start Bah - Dub from the 1st of December! is this true near enuf, last time they operated that route, the loads were terrible, I didn't think they wanted to try that one again.

Anybody think it would be a better idea if an American Airline operated a so called hub out of DUB. I remember talking with some friends about the idea of North West moving their operation out of Amsterdam and bringing it to Dublin with connections being served by Air France, at least Dublin would be suitable for their 330's. opinions...anybody :ugh:

S.C. :ok:

[akerosid]

When you say restrictions on the size of acft that can be used, what do you mean? There'll be no regulatory restrictions, but there may be runway restrictions. Is this what you mean?

I don't think runway length is a major issue on t/a flights; even an A340-300 can fly most routes from DUB and the -600 would have significantly better performance.

I do think, however, that if EI isn't ready, it's a market ripe for the taking. It's a potentially very good market, held back only by internal political considerations, so once those shackles are removed and if the incumbent carrier isn't in a position to take advantage of the opportunity - through a combination of a poor service product and not actually having sufficient aircraft to operate new routes, other airlines will be watching.

I feel that it is most likely to be the small, dynamic private companies which will jump in, rather that state carriers like AF (although it might well be possible that Cityjet would wet lease some AF A330s/340s?)

[CarbHeatIn]

Regarding Australia, I heard recently from someone that works in tourism that more Irish people have been visiting Australia year on year over the last number of years than any other Nationality except the British. This on the face of it seems a dubious statisitc but when I think back to my visits to OZ it doesn't seem that suprising. (Ever been to County Bondi:cool: ??)

So, any prospective market would be a lower end (fare-wise) and high density. Which would appear to fit the current EI 2 Class Long-Haul offering?

Someone wondered why EI doesn't codeshare on existing OZ routes with BA/QF/CX. Seems strange! I believe with better connection in LAX a one stop DUB-LAX-SYD/MEL/BNE/AKL are all possible with EI/QF saving considerable time over a DUB-LHR/FRA-SIN/BKK/HKG-OZ.