250k below 10000

[WorkingHard]

Are all military a/c automatically exempt from this?

[caspertheghost]

No, we just break the rules every time we fly.:E

[WorkingHard]

What a most helpful response casper. If that is your MO then you probably do as you suggested. Why does a simple request for information illicit such peurile answers?

[caspertheghost]

Well it was a bit of a silly question! If you do need/want to know the official answers then I'm sure I could quote you the relevant APs to look up, but I'm afraid you'll have to wait til I get back to work tomorrow. Or, if you want, you could probably look it up yourself if you can't wait that long.

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe F15 are limited to 520k.

[West Coast]

In the US many Navy/Marine air stations have exemptions ("speed letters") That allow a higher speed when inbound for the break/overhead procedure. I believe the last one I saw was 350Kts within so many miles and established on a certain radial

[santiago15]

WorkingHard,

The simple answer is yes.

S15

[DP Harvey]

WH,
I agree with casper. This is not the place to seriously establish ATC legalities. And if you're not serious, don't get upset with a bit of banter.

If you're serious, go find a book. The simple "yes" answer from the guy above is without reference, so how do you know for sure that he is correct?

[Fox3snapshot]

Comply with the local instructions, Stars, blah de blah.

In the fairy tales (i.e. Bar talk!) you can do what you want.....truth is in the real world whether you are military, civil or VVIP, you do what is required when flying into a civil/military controlled environment!

PM Me for some examples....happy to oblige!

:8

[Blacksheep]

I do recall one of 32 Sqns' old Andover CC2s taking a VIP into Heathrow rather than Northolt, being instructed by ATC to descend to 5000 and maintain 250 Knots. The response was that he would descend to 5000 but 250 Knots was close to his maximum (260 knots - it cruised at 230), so he preferred not to go that fast. ATC insisted.

It seems that at the time 250 Knots was a minimum speed rather than a maximum; at least in the Heathrow TCA.

[BEagle]

250K below FL100 is not mandatory for mil a/c in the UK. "Comply if you can" rather than requiring formal exemption approval as in the US.

[WorkingHard]

Thank you Beagle and Snapshot. All I was asking for.

[beerdrinker]

WH,

From AERAD Flight Information Supplement, Air Traffic Control Section, UK Section.
<< Para 6.4 Speed Restriction. A speed restriction of 250kt applies to all non-military flights below FL 100 in all classes of airspace except Classes A and B.

Exceptions will be granted for test flights, exhibitions of flying and to aircraft that canot operate safely below this limit>>

Is on page ATC 135 of my very old copy ( 24 Jan 02)

Official Rule probably in the ANO or Rules of the Air

[6foottanker]

Normally, the '10 does keep to below 250 kts below FL100, exceptions include when we're too heavy in the climb and have to accelerate above this to be above buffet speed, or on the way down, if it isn't busy (0200 usually!) and we'd quite like to go home - we'll ask to maintain 290 until we have to come back to pattern speed. ATC do quite often ask for higher in Class A airspace to help with sequencing.

Don't know whether exempt is the right word for our interpretation of the rules, but we tend to operate much as the civvies in most respects.

[Pub User]

The speed limitations in various classes of airspace are stated in the UK AIP. For IFR traffic in classes A, B & C airspace the limit is stated as 'as published in procedures or instructed by ATC'.

For all VFR traffic, and IFR traffic in all other classes of airspace, the limit below FL100 is '250kts, or lower when published in procedures or instructed by ATC'.

As these limits are given in the 'General Rules and Procedures' section of the AIP, we can assume they are classed as 'Rules of the Air'.

The Air Navigation Order states that these rules 'may be departed from to the extent necessary ...... for complying with Military Flying Regulations (JSP 550) ......... '.

[flipster]

I was once told the 250kts/FL100 limit was there because of the increased risk of birdstrike.

However, I suspect it was more likely introduced to reduce the noise/nuisance iimpact of high speed/power jet ac.

Certainly, most, if not all civil airport procedures are minimum noise routings/procedures. Understandably, this was a benefit in the days of turbojets (VC10/Speys etc) but modern turbofans are so 'silent' in comparison - alas, such is the power of precedent and the 'green vote'!

[Bof]

Blacksheep,

Sorry for being a bit pedantic, but in the days of TQF, and 32 Sqn and Dan Air's Andovers, not to mention all the F27s and Heralds flying around together with smaller corporate pistons and turboprops I really don't think a minimum of 250 kts was ever the norm. You would be over VNE with a lot of them!!

[Evil J]

flipster,

Whilst the birdstrike reason may be valid, I think you'll find that the 250kts below 100 rule is to allow "see and avoid" principles to work-it is obviously much harder to see, and less time to manoeuvre in a see and avoid environment (ie classes D-G in the UK) if you are going like stink.

It is for this reason than in classes D and E ATC can cancel the speed ristriction if they consider that "see and avoid" wont come into play. Don't forget (sorry if this is sucking eggs) but even if you are IFR in class D you will not necessarily be separated from VFR traffic, the only ATC requirement is to pass traffic to both/all parties.

Class F and G ATC cannot possibly know about all the traffic so cannot therefore cancel the speed restriction (but there are exceptions as given above, high performance types, military aircraft etc etc etc)

[flipster]

Yr argument sounds logical but just because you are below FL100 and 250kts doesn't necessarily make you more easy to see. Grey/green @ 250kts rather than 540kts against the backdrop of UK foliage then maybe you are right but white/silver/747 at 250 kts vs 280kts, then it isn't going to make much diffrence.
That is why I tend to favour the noise agrument - however, I have not seen it written anywhere.
So why for civ jets and not for mil? There is no way military FJs should have the limitation of 250/FL100 - 'kin pointless and poor training! So one wonders why it is there at all in CAS?


As an aside, it is arguable that TCAS degrades old-fashioned 'lookout' as people trust the wiggly amps so much more in Class A-D but then, they are lulled into a false sense of security in F-G.

[PPRuNe Radar]

In the UK, different rules apply to aircraft operating under GAT (General Air Traffic) and OAT (Operational Air Traffic). GAT comply with civvie rules.

Sorry Evil J but we can't lift speed in Class E. VFR can operate in there without talking to ATC.

For civvie pilots in airspace which is not a known environment, then the 250Kts is to aid the 'see and be seen' concept. Whether it actually works or not is always debatable. Of course two winged master race mil pilots have no such need ;) if you exclude the Jaguar vs Cessna 150, Tornado vs Cessna 150, Tornado vs Jetranger, and Tucano vs AS350 to name a few. Sorry guys .... superb pilots at your trained job, but no better than anyone else in spotting and preventing collisions statistically. That's the evidence.

[moggiee]

Another reason for 250kt max is that it helps ATC with sequencing if everyone is flying the same speed.

That's the reasoning behind the "170kt to 4 miles" request so often in place at the airports.

[flipster]

But those speed lims are on the airfield approach plates and, therefore, is most definitely to help sequencing but ATC often ask for 'high speed' to help when the sequencing is a bit ragged. So, I suppose 280-250 kts as a base gives them a bit of flex.

Its the generic 250/<FL100 that is not completely explained - Although I agree with it in the main but that in F/G, mil FJs can't abide by it if their training is to realistic and worthwhile. Nonetheless, everyone in F/G should slow down as much as they can to aid lookout whenever possible.

[sonicstomp]

On the Sentry our best rate of climb schedule is 280kias to .07M and our standard descent profile is 0.7M to 280kias...hence - we make full use of our exemption in the UK...

The trick is to know your airspace rules - some countries are blanket 250kias below 10 - e.g Germany.

[flipster]

Yes and you too, chum - when ARE we going to get that beer?

Everyone quotes the birdstrike theory but I have yet to see the reason written anywhere - I can't be @rsed to find it myself and so, just obey the rules......honest!