Freedom of Speech - Where's My Place?

[DuaneDibley]

Cor! - That PPrune Pop bloke doesn't half get the hump easily doesn't he.... I thought the whole idea of these forums was for frank (unfettered) exchanges of views. If the "Fighter Controllers -Know Your Place" thread was that bad it would have surely died a natural death much earlier wouldn't it?

Anyway, back to the issue. In my view (as a current customer), the E-3D is the best provider of its particular ISTAR product by a country mile (work with the A/C or F versions of the platform and you'll soon see what I mean). Such success is due, entirely, to the competence and professionalism of mission crews (including FC brevet holders) who draw on 15 or so years of operational experience. That these mission crews are comprised of various Aircrew and Ground specialists is, however, beside the point.

After 15 years, the FC portion of the E-3D fraternity d@mn well ought to be good at the job - but are we really supposed to believe that the E-3D would be any less capable if it had been crewed solely by aircrew from word go? - Let's get real...... The fundamental issue then, is whether FCs / ASOps should have ever been employed in such numbers on the platform in the first place. This is particularly topical, given the projected availability of AD-savvy former F-3 WSOs as that fleet declines. The writing already seems to be on the wall, with (formerly FC-annotated) Flt Cdr posts on both Sentry sqns now open only to aircrew branches. The aircrew "protectionism" mentioned by tablet_eraser earlier is further evidence of this. In short, the Service is now filling E-3D mission seats with the aircrew specialists who should have been there in the first place, now that they are becoming available.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that FCs should no longer populate the E-3D team, - just that the majority of (non-technician) mission seats should be allocated to aircrew. While Icecap's initial lure about "brevet borrowing" was just a bit of fishing; he did raise some valid points:

FC/AT brevets are the only flying badges currently awarded without any pre-cursor aircrew specialist trg (or for that matter aircrew aptitude testing) - as such, this diminishes their worth in the eyes of many on both sides of the debate. Surely it would be beneficial for all potential FC/AT brevet candidates to undergo aptitude testing, followed by successful completion of the Aircrew Specialist Course / CASC etc before proceeding to the Sentry OCU.

The preponderance of the FC branch across ITW / OES has nothing to do with experience in NEC (E-3D definitely does not lead that area in Lincs let alone the UK) - but is, rather, a reflection of how Sentr-ist (geddit?) Waddo has been until recently - (it took 3 years to get the name of the stn mag changed from Sentry for Cr@st's sake!.....).

The bottom line is that FCs do not "borrow" their brevets, they earn them (after a fashion) - what they have been doing for the past decade and a half though, is "borrowing" the seats that they'll shortly have to return to their rightful owners....

Hopefully, this post will be assessed by those with the power for what it is intended to be - a contribution to the debate. For the first time ever however, I'm not sure whether it'll see the light of day. And that, my friends, would be a shame...........

[BEagle]

Prune Pop is a really nice chap who doesn't close threads without good reason.

However, taking the pi$$ out of a group of people (crabs, WAFUs, FCs, whatever) is one thing, direct personal insults quite another!

[jayteeto]

I could, and so could many of the people I worked with. We were ex-techies. Just to put the record straight, aircrew have to learn technical stuff about ALL the systems, ground trades specialise. To pass ATPL exams was more in depth than my RAF Technical Training at Cosford.

[Icecap]

BEagle - direct personal insults? That implies insults aimed at persons (not groups) - I didn't see any. In my opinion, the Mods shut down the thread just as informed debate was taking place.

[WorkingHard]

As someone who left the military a long time ago I read quite a few of the threads with interest, It does seem that any criticism (take beagles point though about direct insults) does get some flak from the mods. Of course it may be just the threads I look at occasionaly but that is how it seems.

[Engineer]

DuaneDibley

No such thing as freedom of speech unless you have loads of money or happen to be a moderator :ok:

[SpotterFC]

AEW in the RAF did not spring into being fully formed with the introduction of the E-3. The Shacklebomberwacs may not have had much useful capability but FCs were part of their crews. Putting them onto the E-3 was therefore a natural progression - whether the proportion has remained static I don't know. So please, less of the "return to their rightful owners" stuff. By your logic the specialists in the R1, the army guys on ASTOR and the air despatchers on the C130 should also not be there.

[DuaneDibley]

Well at least this is running so far.....

Spotter FC: Don't know about the Air Despatcher side of things and so can't comment. As far as R1 and ASTOR goes, NO ONE on those crews flies with a brevet without having successfully completed the NCAITC (R1) or the Aircrew Specialist Course and CASC (ASTOR). My point regarding award of the FC brevet therefore still stands. I should also re-iterate my stance on not advocating that FCs leave Sentry completely.

There you go, just a debate - nothing else......

[SpotterFC]

Fair response - then we are probably fools unto ourselves.

[DP Harvey]

I don't have any issue with FCs working their consoles in aircraft. Its a good idea. They become airborne FCs. They do a good job; probably better than any aircrew would do on the console. I worked with them over Iraq in 03. However, they do not, of course, become aircrew just because their workplace is in a flying aircraft. The fact that they do survival traing does not qualify them to be aircrew (oil/gas rig workers go in the dunker and practice sea survival). Airborne FCs should not wear any insignia on their uniform including the RAF Wing. I also include the persons in the back of the R1 and the air stewards in my belief. Having said that, I do not have a problem with airborne FCs and air stewards wearing pseudo-brevet name badges on their flying suits, so that people will recognise their role on the jet.

Its that simple, really.

[Maple 01]

So they fly but they don't count as aircrew because..........?

So that must mean that those 'old boys' of the Aircrew association should kick out those with S, W/O, WOP/AG, E, LM, AT, M, AE, B, QM, RO leaving it 'pure' for pilots and navs

they do not, of course, become aircrew just because their workplace is in a flying aircraft

er...... that sounds like a definition of aircrew to me!

[FJJP]

I think we are talking about earning wings by doing a full, formal aircrew training course - not like the SERE at CW where specialists [padres, doctors, etc] do a saluting course and learn military speak.

I believe the back-enders on the R at Wadd DO do a formal course before being presented with their wings - it's not just a dinghy drill or two, and the AEOps come from several tours in Maritime...

[The Swinging Monkey]

Maple,

To a degree I take your point, but what you keep forgetting, or maybe deliberately over-looking, is this.........

Those of us that are 'real' aircrew (for want of a better word) do not have too much of a problem with people joining our fraternity. Indeed, in the main we warmly welcome them.
What we (and especially me) object to, is young and arrogant ground FC JOs who join us and think that because they have been chosen to fly on the jet, they are something they are not.
They do NOT do a formal 'aircrew' selection course and, as has been rightly pointed out, they do NOT do a recognised RAF survival course (or they didn't when I was on E-3s)

In the main, they struggle to shake off the rank thing in the air, and I have seen on more than one occasion, a big hairy Master tell a JO FC just where to go in the air, and clarify that later on the ground!!

Now, you can argue that it is not their fault and that its part of their training et al, and that may well be so. But for the rest of us, we don't give a to$$, it's not our problem, its yours Sir! And, if you want to play aircrew, then you must start acting like aircrew. And that means in all aspects.

Now what has happened to a few FCs is that they have managed to persuade the hierarchy of their branch that the jet cannot function without them. Wrong! The jet will function perfectly well without them, and I would suggest that some of the fleets BEST controllers are both Navs and AEs(and a few FCs)

Thats not to say that all FCs are the same, and I would be the first to say that several of them are damned good. Unfortunately, the good ones are in the very very small minority, and the old tar brush unfortunately tends to paint them all.

In the main, they need to take leaf out of the ATs book. These guys have a totally different mentality when they join the fleet, and are a refreshing change from most FCs - especially JOs.

Back to bed now, and more medication!
Kind regards
TSM

[Maple 01]

Ah.....got me there about arrogant FC JOs, but that's just down to youth - most of the Flt Lt FCs are quite nice! (Can’t believe I said that) Also probably true of some SAC turned Sgt controllers too (sweeping generalisation alert), again due to age and life experience IMO. There used to be an element of friction between Commissioned and NCO controllers, as well as SNCO FC and their non-FC equivalents but I think they/we are beginning to workout that we're on the same side!

[The Gorilla]

Swinging Monkey

Well said!!

But I still maintain that the service is responsible for their taking rank into the air. They are not trained to be aircrew and that isn't their fault!!

That said some certainly don't learn (don't want to?) how to behave in the air, again as you say that is a problem for them.

But they do an excellent and professional job none the less!!

:ok:

[Widger]

This is fantastic. It has been great sat here on the sidelines, reading all the winged master race snobbery! IMHO it does not matter what branch you are, it is the best person for the job, regardless!

[DuaneDibley]

FJJP and DPHarvey

Just for clarification:

I may not have expressed myself clearly on my last post. The R1 is crewed exclusively by brevet-holding aircrew in receipt of Flying Pay. All specialisations on the platform have completed aircrew selection and trg.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Widger,

If you had the remotest idea of who I was, then you would realise what a stupid statement that was, to call me a snob!!
I am the most 'un-snobbish' (is that a word?) person on this earth! Clearly you know nothing about what we are discussing here, and I would suggest you go back under the rock whence you came from, there's a good chap.

Gorilla, I couldn't agree more with you my dear chap. Most of these FCs are a product of what the Air Force has made them. All I would say is that
a) I believe it is their trade (and not so much the RAF) to blame for the way they have turned out, and.......
b) A proper 'aircrew' style selection, by 'aircrew' would avoid a lot of these problems that clearly exist.

If these guys and girls want to join the winged fraternity, then thats fine by me, but they must understand that we play by 'aircrew' rules, and not FC bunker rules.

Regards
TSM

[Fg Off Bloggs]

TSM,

Shouldn't that be 'Bunker Mentality'!

Fg Off B

PS. I'm still waiting!

[Random E-3 bloke]

I'm an E-3 bloke (JO) and I'm a bit disappointed that the general consensus seems to be that we're sh*t at our jobs. Whenever I've been away on exercises, FJ lads have had nothing but good things to say to our faces, but then you come on here and start slagging.

I totally agree that we aren't all good at our job, and aren't all on the ball 100% of the time - but I would love to meet any pilot/nav etc who is. I've lost count of the number of bad calls/lack of ATO/ACO/SPINS awareness etc that I've come across in the past, and it's usually a cross section of different ac types on different days. I just put it down to the fact we're all human and have got a lot on our plates.

Please bear in mind that our training system is far from the best (we are taught by the slightly more experienced FC bloke, not by FJ mates who can tell us what they really want.) Our exposure to FJ mates is generally confined to big exercises or a 30 second phone call debrief consisting of "yeah, no problems mate." If you guys think we're sh*t, tell us to our faces when you get the chance - at the end of the day, if I do my job badly, you're the ones who could die, not me......

Also, the calls of "you're approaching the edge of your airspace" etc are almost entirely driven by the instructor or FA on your shoulder who hasn't controlled since 1967.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Radom E-3 Bloke,

There you go, another FC moaning and whinging and blaming everyone but himself. Just for the record, I for one have never called you *****, nor would I ever do so. I
So lets take your points then (the ones about other aircrew eh?
1. Pilots not on the ball....hmmmm well the ones that arn't on the ball, are generally not with us any more
2. Navs not on the ball....well, not sure I agree there either. I don't think that I have been lost before in an aircraft.
3. You have 'lost count' of the number of 'bad calls'???.....holy sh1t, I guess that means that most of the comments that you are complaining about are true then eh?
4. And whats all this about an FA who hasn't controlled since 1967? Now you really are talking tosh!!

Listen, you are epitomising everything that people on this forum have said before. It's not your fault, its the system, its the FA, its the instructors blah
NO IT IS NOT SIR....ITS YOU, ITS YOUR FAULT!
So, instead of bleating on, do something about it and sharpen up Man!
TSM

[The Gorilla]

Firstly, muppet, in case you haven't noticed swearing is somewhat frowned upon on this site and is totally unnecessary.

Please edit your post forthwith!!

Secondly I have been defending FC's on here for the last few days and you come along and hey presto prove that in fact FC's are bunker S**m.

I despair I really do!!!!

:uhoh:

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Random E-3 bloke
The British FCs are without doubt the best I have worked with but you are missing the point. FCs are not being criticised for their abilities but the discussion is whether they should be considered "aircrew'. Lets face it, FCs sit in the back of darkened tubes/darkened bunkers....where is the difference? Do we really need to pay them flying pay? If we do, then fine, but why is it that you rarely seen FC returning from E-3s to ground tours to pass on their experience/knowledge? We all know there are flying FCs who havent been back to a ground tour for years and years. Why? It would seem logical to rotate as many people through Waddo as often as possible but it doesnt happen. Your skills are not in question, what is being questioned in your status

[metalthrower]

As this thread started by questioning freedom of speech we seem to have drifted off a little. But I need some help.
Has anyone seen the thread I started last night entitled "Should Fighter Controllers Wear Growbags in Ground Appointments?" I had a couple of bites straightaway which was better than I hoped for - now its gone......now I'm not a conspiracy theorist but......

[Random E-3 bloke]

Gorilla - Sorry, my first ever post on pprune and I thought the software would edit swearing... Edited as requested.

TSM - You say the off the ball pilots aren't 'with us' - I notice you're retired RAF, when was the last time you received a service from an E-3?

As for questioning our status - why bother? The only people who we care about questioning our status are the people who can take away our flying pay and brevet, and I'm betting that's no-one on here...

As for recycling us back to the ground, it is a good idea and should happen, but as with most of the RAF, our manning just simply doesn't accommodate it.

[Wholigan]

The only people who we care about questioning our status are the people who can take away our flying pay and brevet, and I'm betting that's no-one on here...

So what odds are you offering? :E

[Pontius Navigator]

FCs on the Shacklebomber were Johny Come Latley's. The first made the transition from bunker to air with minimal problems and served for many years at the Mushroom Farm, didn't you Hamish.

The next batch was definitely mixed, officer and SNCO and I know one of the SNCOs wanted out again PDQ. One of the officers was something else again and I quote "I don't need to do survival drills, my job is as an FC. Your job as aircrew is to look after me."

They were posted to Shacklebombers as a precursor to the Nimwack. Several aircrew were also posted down the hole to become proper fighter controllers too. One particular ex-Nimrod nav made a particularly successful transplant. For various reasons (Innsworth) he was not 'available' for the E3.

I first flew in an E3A 22 years ago. Very instructive and also male chauvinistic as 'they' hated the women. Then on the NE3A about a year later. That was also very instructive with the over-ranked mission crew. Clearly an NE3A tour was highly prized and the postings went on seniority. Things were better 10 years later.

On the D there was very little difference between bunker rats and the aircrew. Both did the job with a high degree of proficiency.

[The Swinging Monkey]

E-3 Fella,

What I meant is that the pilots who were 'not on the ball' are no longer with us, because they 'crashed & burned' .......have you got it now?
Yes, I am retired now (not sure what thats got to do with anything tho') and NO, I have NEVER received a service from an E-3.
Flew in quite a few (well all 7 actually, but you know what I mean) Also flew quite a few a's out of GK, especially during GW1 (thats Gulf War 1 for you Fella)
I suppose your comment about the only people you care about are those who can take away your flying pay is quite apt. And you know what? its the first correct thing you've said, and I guess that pretty much sums you up.

As for Hamish - now there is an FC I admire and respect. Good at his job and a first class aviator. Shame all FCs can't be like him.

Kind regards
TSM
'Caruthers, fetch me a large Grouse old man, this E-3 bloke is doing my head in what!!'

[PPRuNeUser0172]

This is a a bit of a hot potato isnt it? See, just look what happens when you give a blunty some modicum of status and importance. Now lets all remember where we all stand in the grand scheme of things. We are all in the gutter, its just that some of us get to look at the stars.

Cheeerio;)

[The Gorilla]

TSM

Ahh Hamish...Respect!!


:ok:

[Random E-3 bloke]

TSM,

I absolutely got what is meant by the no longer with us, it's the use of 'us'! Given the name you have dropped (although I quite agree he is a top bloke, and I enjoy working with him) it's been a long long while since you were in and 'us' isn't really appropriate...

I'm not convinced of the validity of comments on the status/quality of FCs from people who don't receive any service from them???

Cue a deluge of anti-FC by currently serving FJ boys..... :ugh:

[Oggin Aviator]

This thread is turning into a bizarre echo of the one the other day that was closed by the Mods.

Just my two penneth worth but shouldnt any person operating in the same aircraft eg Pilot, Nav, Engineer, FC (Surveillance or Weapons), AEoP etc go through the same survival course ????

So we've crashed and half of us have survived but only half of these people have been trained to deal with the situation. That makes sense.

as I said, ....... bizarre !

[PPRuNe Radar]

So what odds are you offering?

Wholigan

I suspect you can cancel privileges ... which is punishment enough :p


Also, the calls of "you're approaching the edge of your airspace" etc are almost entirely driven by the instructor or FA on your shoulder who hasn't controlled since 1967.

Still fails to stop the odd FJ jockey under AWACS control flying in to Controlled Airspace though. Don't they carry maps ? .... even paper ones ;)

[Widger]

Swinging Monkey,

Sorry, I didn't realise you were the moderator of this thread. If you cannot be civil to other professionals with an opinion then don't post!

My point was that this and the previous thread on FCs was bringing out one of the worst aspects of the RAF, that of Brevet snobbery and judging by some of the replies on here it is alive and well!

There is a whole world of difference to a pilot with an ejector seat who bangs out and an Fc sat in the back of a can with no way out. If said FC needs to put survival training into effect then he is probably toast anyway! Why waste money on skills they are never going to have to use?

[Fg Off Bloggs]

TSM,

Calm down, man! Frankly, it's not worth engaging!

The point has been well made on this and other fora (now closed) and isn't worth losing any more heartbeats over. Be content that we, the aircrew, understand fully all the imperatives of our trade but particularly, for this debate:

a. Airmanship.
b. Crew cooperation.
c. Survival training.

All of these are gained by experience (hopefully not for para c)and, initially, formal training. If some choose to come to the party without an understanding of even the basic principles then they clearly cannot be classed in the same grouping as those who have been furnished with the professional qualification.

We understand what being an 'airman' is about; they do not. We know how to cooperate as a crew; clearly from the previous debate, they do not. We know how to survive in the 'oggin; they clearly think that they walk on water, they don't!

Result, we get flying pay 24/7 whether engaged in flying duties or not, they don't. We can wear our flying suits when we are on a ground tour (at least on a flying station), they should not. We have a much better chance of survival in the ocean; they do not.

Conclusion, we are aircrew, they are passengers!

There ain't no other debate.

Finally, Random E-3 bloke, by his own admission, is having his first experience of PPRuNe, poor chap. Hopefully, he has learned quickly that you need to be a bit more mature than he is displaying currently if your argument is going to hold water on here. He should by now also have learned that aircrew banter is unforgiving! If he were aircrew, he would understand; but he ain't!

And last for you, Widger, I think you need to explain your understanding of the procedures and survival equipment availability in an E-3! If you are implying that the front end has bang seats then you need to read your copy of Janes ATW's Aircraft a bit more carefully. Moreover, if you do not understand the principles of ditching, then I recommend that you listen very carefully to the stewardess the next time you fly civvie air!!!!!

TSM, Cheers old boy, the malt was marvellous!

Fg Off B

[Maple 01]

And that, gentlemen, is why some 'real' aircrew come across as arrogant to us ‘lower orders’ and ‘blunties’

Without the 'non-aircrew' FCs and Eng the E-3 fleet would be just another bunch of obsolete 707s looking for a charter.......

edited to take extra 'e' as recommended by foldingwings

[foldingwings]

Maple 01,

I disagree! Bloggs is merely pointing out that there is a difference between those who have had formal training to become aircrew and those who have not. Which, correct me if I am wrong, is surely not in dispute.

If anyone is being arrogant, surely it is those who have not had the training (or believe that they do not need the training) but think that they are on equal terms with those who have! Arrogance or stupidity can surely be the only 2 words to describe anybody who could undertake Sea Survival Training but chooses (either personally or by the system provided; which is of their own branch's making) not to do so.

BTW, which GentlemAn were you talking to?

[Random E-3 bloke]

I don't think anyone is claiming to be something they're not. I am not professional aircrew - I am a ground trade filling an airborne job. But so what? I don't remember either of the threads being started by an FC saying - 'look at me, I'm the same as a pilot.'

I'll admit there are some around who still hang on to the '3rd man in the cockpit' but the reality is that most of the FCs I know are content with their place in the pecking order. Why should we care? You're absolutely right, we are passengers. But once the thing's in the orbit, it's not the pilots who are contributing to the war....

Truth is, I get flying pay, and I enjoy my job? Why does that seem to upset so many 'aircrew'?

As for Fg Off Bloggs, I think your rank says it all. So our survival course isn't the same as yours? Sorry. We don't understand crew co-operation - have you flown on an E-3 recently?

I just detect this underlying "I'm not a good enough pilot so I better take it out on someone else" thing going on here?

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Random,

It's a pseudonym, old chap! I'm actually Chief of the Air Staff!

Bloggs

[Random E-3 bloke]

In which case, apologies Sir. Please don't stop our flying pay...

[The Gorilla]

Random!!

You are learning well done!! I agree with all of your sentiments, as an ex E3D Air Eng I am actually on your side in this!!


Regards

TG

[Widger]

Fg Off Bloggs,

I am not for one moment, suggesting that the E3 has a bang seat. I am very familiar however, with sea survival and ditching drills. As a pilot (fully qualified and trained and with Brevet to show for it), you may find yourself in an aircraft other than an airliner one day, when those survival skills may come in handy! Or is that unlikely?

When was the last time an E3 ditched? I put it to you that if one were to ditch, the likelihood of many of the (untrained or untrained) crew getting out to put those (limited) survival skills to good use is very slim. If you are in that position then you are probably already toast. Yes, yes I know about the Nimrod and while not wanting to hijack this thread, the Nimrod does not have 4 great water brakes hanging underneath or a Firkin great radome above it.

Getting back again to the core debate in this thread, it all started with someone posting some details about FCs getting all the core jobs. There then followed a whole load of bile about the fact that if you haven't got a (proper) brevet, then you cannot by any stretch of the imagination be a professional or any use to anyone. Well that discounts about 90% of the rest of the UK military then!

I finish by saying that no, I do not hold a brevet. I have immense respect for those in the air, especially when my arse is firmly strapped to the ground (normally) however arrogance is not an attractive quality and always detracts from reasoned argument.

:ok:

[round&round]

With reference to survival training lets examine some facts:

1. The E-3 is always full of food.
2. If the E-3 crashes and burns the food will probably be unfit for consumption and the crew somewhat compressed.
3. If the E-3 makes a successful forced landing the food will probably be OK.
4. The E-3 has 3 Airborne Techs and a Flight Engineer.
5. E-3 has 8 generators.
6. ATs and FE should be able to repair/jerry rig 1 x oven, 1 x fridge and 1 x freezer to 1 X generator.
7. E-3 crew can carry on as normal with considerably less turbulence/noise in the headsets.
8. E-3 crew not very likely to try and walk out as shady spot under the wing + lots of food will undoubtedly be a lot better and quieter than 12 man tent provided by Auntie Betty 200ft from the rotate point. (Plus a lot less jobsworth rules to worry about)
9. E-3 has very good HF radio so can still listen to Test Match Special on the WS.
10. Alcohol is used in the cooling system, but mixers will be a challange!

Obviously, the food supplied is finite, so if we cut back to 5 nosebags a day, we should "survive" until the campaign medals are issued. (About 3-5 years!!!)

Hope this adds to a debate full of well informed opinion!

Cheers,

R&R

[SpotterFC]

Random you make I laugh. Whilst I am more than happy to defend the position of FCs on the E-3, your comment about flying pay sums a great deal up.

(Standby for internecine conflagration)