Airspace Boundaries

[J430]

I hope some of our ATC friends will answer this hypotheical case constructively as I have heard different opinions from several sources of late and wonder if there are many in GA RPT and ATC who are not 100% sure either.

Case 1. You are flying along at 4500ft, approach a D tower like Rockhampton, do you need a clearnace??? No according to the tower, however they appreciate you letting them know your intentions all the same. Is this correct???

Case 2. You are flying in class G wth a CLL of 4500 and you climb to 4500 feet. Do you need a clearance?? No, only if you climb above. Is this correct???

Case 3. You are flying along in class G at 4500 feet, approaching a class D tower with class C over the top. Do you fly on through because its no mans land? Are you in class D? Are you in class C? Which is correct???

Let the fun begin...

Cheers

J

[Jungmeister]

J430,

It is all covered in the AIP which you can access at the Airservices site
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/aip.asp?pg=20&vdate=9-Jun-2005&ver=1


Q1. Clearance is required for VFR flight in D airspace. (AIP ENR 11.2)

Q2. Clearance is not required to operate on the base of controlled airspace however see below. (AIP ENR 1.1.7)

Q3. There is no such thing as "No mans land" A clearance is required and procedures are conducted as per the "lesser airspace" when flying on a common vertical airspace boundary.
AIP ENR 1.1.7)

J430,

I don\'t have access to maps at the moment to check out the Rockhampton area. I guess if you do not intend to enter the D airspace (EG overflying at 4500) then the procedure to be followed may not be clearly covered in those references.

I agree with the TWR advice to make a call for information. This type of scenario caused incidents around the country during the NAS trial.

[J430]

Jungmeister

I would agree and that was how I believed it to be until last year when E over D existed, however I was not able to find your reference to (AIP ENR 1.1.7). So under the E over D system you were bound by the lessor being E and now its C over D so its now D that you are concerned with. Yo can see why when I asked a few people about it I received many different ansers. The important point is the Lessor of the airspace types at the boundary is considered the one you are in.

Still cant find 1.1.7?? I will keep searching though....

Cheers
J
:)

[Skase Jnr]

J430

Case 1 Yes
Case 2 Your in G?
Case 3 No don't fly on you will be in D

The answer is C over D clearance from tower
E over D clearance not required
There is no gap in the middle

The confusion could be in the phraseology used in your example that the tower had no requirement for you on frequency as opposed to you not requiring a clearance.

Excerpts relevant

Class - C
Type of flight - VFR
Separation provided - VFR from IFR
Service provided - 1. Air traffic control service for separation from IFR 2. VFR / VFR traffic information (and traffic avoidance advice on request).
Speed limitation - 250 KT IAS below 10,000 FT AMSL *
Radio communication requirements - Continuous two-way
Subject to an ATC clearance - Yes

Class - D
Type of flight - VFR
Separation provided - NIL (meaning segregated from IFR)
Service provided - Air traffic control service, traffic information on all other flights.
Speed limitation - 250 KT IAS below 10,000 FT AMSL *
Radio communication requirements - Continuous two-way
Subject to an ATC clearance - Yes

Class - E
Type of flight - VFR
Separation provided - NIL (meaning nothing)
Service provided - Flight Information Service
Speed limitation - 250 KT IAS below 10,000 FT AMSL *
Radio communication requirements - Continuous two-way
Subject to an ATC clearance - NO

[Jungmeister]

J430,

Sorry, I missed off the heading section for the ENR reference.

:O

The procedures for operating on the boundaries are described in ENR Part 1.4 (ATS Airspace Classification).
Para 1.1.7 in particular.


I don't have any experience in D TWRS but I follow the discussions with interest. The AIP is not the easiest publication to plod through but it usually contains the solutions.

[J430]

Skase Jnr

Thanks for the detailed reply. I think you missed my tongue in cheek comment about sailing on in.

What started the discussion was NAS2b and post NAS2b and while we were sure of the lower or undernaeth edges of say Class C, what was the application of the upper limit, in other words which space are you in D/E or D/C, obviously when its considered the lessor of the two E is not requiring a clearance. SOmetimes its not all that easy to find the answer you want in AIP and thanks to the Junmeister its all clear.

I always belive better to ask and be told don't worry than not ask and be asked to explain!!!!

Cheers

J:)