Fighter Controllers - Know Your Place!

[Icecap]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed the insidious efforts of the brevet-borrowing community to take over the world? At a secret ISTAR hub somewhere north of London, there seem to be more of the bu@@ers in support jobs than fly on the aircraft they initially weaselled their way onto. Don't they enjoy life in their proper jobs?

[Widger]

ooooooooooooo sharp intake of breath.......this is going to be a good one!!!

[ORAC]

Troll alert.........

[ladyfly]

I'd hold on tight Icecap if I was you, i'm sure some of them will come out of their dark rooms and protest.

[6foottanker]

Might have to wait til shift change, I guess they don't get out much......:\

[shandyman]

. . . . and whilst we're on the subject, do we call them aircrew or just wannabees?

[Specaircrew]

When working in a big bunker in the desert I was surprised at the number of fresh faced Sqn Ldr 'brevet borrowers' until I realised that they'd all been given acting rank to 'give them more credibility in a high rank environment'

Personally I found the CCO would always listen if you spoke loudly and confidently in a very 'British' accent:ok:

[SpotterFC]

ORAC - sorry couldn't resist.

Wadda Madder? Did ickle diddums get shouted at for being wubbish even dough he was wearing a pwopper bwevet. Didn't dey wealize oo is pwopper aircwew. Der der pop oo dummy back in and wipe oo tears up.

Or did somebody else just get the job you wanted because they were better qualified for it than you?


BTW - if they weaselled their way onto the jet - how come some of those with pwopper bwevets have such a hard time doing the WC job?

.....and I'm not even a 'borrower'

[maxburner]

Now now chaps. I think you'll agree that some female FCs are highly decorative so well worth having around.

There, that should provoke some reaction...

[KPax]

Can't think of anything better to do with 'wanabe' Air Traffikers than stick them in a large tube and launch them. At least the 'real aircrew' will have someone to make the tea.

[SpotterFC]

And why, pray tell, would a FC of either persuasion actually WANT to be an air traffic controller?

As for making tea, I thought that's what the WSOps were for - especially those that transferred from the Kipper Fleet :E

[JessTheDog]

At a secret ISTAR hub somewhere north of London, there seem to be more of the bu@@ers in support jobs than fly on the aircraft they initially weaselled their way onto.

This isn't something to do with the relocation of 2 CRCs, is it?

2 bites so far - or one repeated bite!

One further thought - isn\'t the job of FCs to tell aircrew what to do? :D

[Yeller_Gait]

Jess,

Nothing to do with the transfer to Scampton I am afraid, but you are right, they do seem to be trying to take over here.

FC ... Flying chef ?

[FFP]

We'd be lost without FC's on a North Sea Towline .. . . .

.. . . Who'd jam the comms ?!??!?!?!

(Doesn't it really annoy you .. . . . . . . .):ok:

[Vim_Fuego]

Quote:

"As for making tea, I thought that's what the WSOps were for - especially those that transferred from the Kipper Fleet"


Ok...I'll bite on this one..You can tell a lot about a person who gets off his arse in a spare couple of minutes to get thrown around in the galley putting a brew on..

Many a nav can find a couple of square feet in the middle of the Atlantic (some non-maritime types would ask why he would want to!) but he can not locate a water boiler thirty odd feet behind him and take 2 minutes out of up to 8 hours to show a bit of CRM.

I don't know about you but I feel a lot better now...

[JessTheDog]

FC ... Flying chef ?

No need to cook, the packed lunches are pre-prepared and massive!

[BEagle]

So that'll be Fat C*** then?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Spotter,

I'm afraid youv'e blown it now old boy. Up until your remark about WSOps, I was pretty much with you, but that comment just about sums up what your trade is all about.

Yes there are some good FCs, I've flown with quite a few of them, but there are a hell of a lot that are utter ar$eholes frankly, who should never have been let near an aircraft, let alone fly in one.

They struggle to leave their rank in the crew-room, and insist on bringing it on board.......'Bloggs, you can address me as Ma'am' ....
Yeah right, and you can kiss my ar$e Lady!
or
'Bloggs, could you get me a cup of tea, I'm controlling this one and only f-16 thats airborne in the Northern hemisphere!' yeah sure, the galley is 30' behind you Sir, I'm sure you'll find it...its on the way to the Bog!!!'

CRM for an FC stands for 'can't remember much' ...maybe thats why so many fail the course eh??

Kind regards to ALL real aircrew (and I include the techies in that)
TSM
'Caruthers, get the tin hat ready, I feel some flak incoming'

[Fox3snapshot]

RAAF GCI's/FC's are bad enough on the ground with their deluded sense of purpose....with Wedgetail coming on line the delusions of grandeur will no doubt reach new heights. :hmm:

[Icecap]

Can any Brevet-Borrowers out there explain why they are so keen to do somebody else's (ie aircrew's) job, and not their own?

Why are there so many in the AWC?

Why are there so many on the OES?

Why will there be over 60 of 'em on the ISTAR Training Wing, when everbody else gets 5 reps?

How do they get to do their own survival training, when everybody else has to head to the Southwest?

Why don't they want to go back to Boulmer? Don't they LIKE Geordie birds?

I'm telling you, it's a plot.........

[The Swinging Monkey]

Icecap,
Your right, and very soon the ba$tards will have taken over the WORLD!!!

They can do their own 'survival training' 'cos they can't do the proper one - simple aint it?

So many in AWC and ISATR Tg Wg 'cos once they get that little badge and a grow bag, they don't want the $hit things in life, but just want to stomp around the station showing off 'look - I'm aircrew now'

And NO, they don't want to go back to Boulmer. But lets face it, would you want to go to a place where 90%+ of the population are self-centred, self opinionated, arrogant to$$ers?? (sorry, I mean FC's)

Kind regards to the real aircrew world
TSM

Come on Spotter, over to you!!!

[Predator Jock]

You snapperheads have missed the boat. Technology is relegating you to desk jobs and soon me and my buds will be the big nobs in the bar! We'll spend all day using datalink to blow up stuff and nail SU30s while they are tucking their gear up - then back to the bar to tell all of our adventures while the ex Jag mate in the corner, who has restreamed to Admin, talks about the good old days. All without survival training, Avmed, safety equipment, ejection seats, walk arounds, piddle packs, piles, potentially fatal buffoonery from wingmen and sweat.

Brevet - Borrowers? Hell we're the rightful heirs!!:ok:

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Hoy! Monkey Boy! Did I give you permission to use me as an example? I'll take one crate of foaming nectar in respect of payment for misappropriation of a PPRuNe pseudonym please.

Fighter Controllers! I'll tell you why they like it! Unlike a mole that has poked it's furry beak above ground and thought "Sh1t! That's a bit ferkin bright!" Once you let a FC above ground and they 'See the light!', they don't want to go back down again. Add to that, the mole catcher for FC's has been around whilst they have been out and sealed up many of the entrances to their dwellings!

Also, having been posted to the Lincolnshire Air Force and bought houses, like many (aircrew) before them, they don't want to leave. I know of one FC in the AWC who is on his 3rd consecutive tour at Waddo!!!!! I said third (but then again, so have many aircrew!).

Now, with all this happening around them, they have 'sensibly' made a move on the branches and roles of the RAF where others have either abbrogated their responsibility or left a chink that has been prised open by them; ably assisted by the OBSR that has turned everyone into the GD branch at wg cdr level and made the field more competitive.

Result: Less moles living below ground and more moles working on policy, battle management, space (that's the final frontier kind) and anything else that they turn over a stone and find that it's up for grabs.

Trouble is, with a diminishing requirement in numbers of personnel on active FC duties (ie. required to merge aircraft together) there is little choice but to retrain them as ATC (Keeriste! The very thought!) or throw them out. Unfortunately, we aircrew, were a bit too slow to get the wagons around and they were rather too quick to 'See the light'.

Don't mean that I agree with it, however!

Monkey Man, I am stiiiiillll waiting!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Bloggs,
A thousand apologies old bean, only a figure of the old speach you understand, whatto??

I will have Caruthers stop by one of Mr Tescos little outlets and dispach a slab of the foaming nectar you crave.

As another way of apologising, I am sending a large bottle of Grouse over to you. I think you will find it a little more subtle than the foaming stuff! enjoy it old bean.
Keep up the good work and kind regards
TSM

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Borrowed a quote from one of ORAC's posts

"The UK's high-profile Future Offensive Air System (FOAS) programme, a replacement for the Royal Air Force's (RAF's) Tornado GR.4 strike aircraft, has been scrapped after years of planning and concept evaluation to make way for a fundamentally different kind of project focused on a family of long-range, long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) that will probably embrace the combat, reconnaissance and surveillance roles.

Oh dear, and what branch is at the forefront of managing the battlespace in our well funded HQ's.

As the food chain goes, we FC's welcome all the unemployed Nav's (? why, isn't there anything more glamorous for the REAL brevet wearers)

Yeller_gait

I know you, and lets face it if FC stands for flying Chef, pmsl, then you have eaten well, too many 10+ from in-flight !!

badabadaba i'm loving it !!:}

[SpotterFC]

Ah TSM - sarcasm and irony don't travel well on the interweb.

Only going on what I'm told by the kipper mates at Cranners with me (and I'll be dead this time on Monday!). Of course, training in this most vital of arts has now been delegated to the OCU (as with most things) as there is no suitable galley on any of the Dominies! :E

As it happens (and God only knows why I'm defending them) the 3 most recent cups of coffee I've received whilst flying in HM's jets have been provided by navigators - but only because the other student and I had the 2 interesting rear seats meaning the instructor could either make coffee for Bloggs (sorry!), his able assistant and the 2 studes, or sit facing a blank bulkhead 2 feet away from the donks.

We all wondered how long it would take for the rest of the RAF to notice the insidious infiltration of our operatives into mainstream life. Fools! it is too late now - bring out the sharks with fr1ckin' laser beams. Bwah hah hah hah!:E

[Bunker Mentality]

For goodness' sake, Spotter, now you've really let the cat out of the (grow)bag!

Everything was coming along so well with our plan to take over the world. Our top secret mobile unit had set up its covert base in the heart of RAF Lincolnshire, our avatars on the top secret wonder-jet at Air Base W had persuaded everyone that we were a bunch of know-nothing aircrew groupies who can't even make their own tea and we have successfully concentrated our strength in the top secret bunker at top secret base B. We had even got the evil Dr Hoon on our side, who has begun to weaken the rest of the Air Force by shrinking it until it is to weak to resist our advance!

Even now, our subtle minions are working tirelessly to infiltrate JCSC and assault the echelons of higher command. We are spreading across the Air Force with the slow irresistability of a glacier, and we will carry all before us! Have you not noticed how many people have the word 'assimilated' on their docs?

Resistance is futile! You, Icecap, if your name is apt, should recognise that our inevitable advance cannot be stopped. Exterminate! Exterminate!

[PPRuNe Pop]

We had a complaint about the swearing and personal abuse. I can see why. In fact I wish I had seen it before. Goes against PPRuNe principals.

OK, you might not like FC's but that is no excuse for some of the below the belt stuff and the swearing spouted on here. Somewhat bitter too it seems to me. As you know, we usually leave you guys to control (!) such things. That is clearly not working.

So.........either it gets friendly or it gets closed. :ok:

Sorry but them's the rules.

[BEagle]

When these jumped up wireless observers first appeared on the scene with their shiny new Fat Clot brevets, we showed one around the FunBus at some airshow or other. I was explaining the difference between the pilots and navigators' RMIs for VOR/TAC indication when he asked "VO-what"... It then transpired that he hadn't the faintest idea about the difference between True and Mag, IAS and TAS or any other pretty basic concepts....

When mess stewards take their ground specialisation into the sky and become cabin crew with responsibility for passenger safety, they are only allowed to wear a small badge of insignia on their uniform. So why does the same not apply to the concrete-cavern refugees?

It got so bad towards the end of my AAR time that we actually preferred being 'controlled' by ATCUs rather than SOCs - because they had a better idea of what they were doing, in general. And most of the time we would do anything to stay out of Class B airspace in any case...

It was just as bad when I was on F4s. We were told to 'be nice about Neatishead' when the Taceval team came to call one happy exercise. So we did - in an obviously over the top manner with mock guns held to our heads. "Neatishead are good?" queried one Taceval member, "..in my day they were b£oody awful!".

And those who think that they might control UAVs in UK airspace one day might do well to examine the requirements of CAP722 inrespect of UAV operators.

[The Gorilla]

Before I became plastique I used to be a JAFAD working with FC's down in the bunkers and other such places as the R12. My last posting reunited me with a lot of them. I like to believe that I have a number of good friends who wear the FC brevet.

It is true that they can be a strange bunch but that's the nature of the beast. The current friction comes from the fact IMO that they treat the E3D as if it were another bunker. The fact is that FC Occifers are Occifers first and foremost. They usually command numbers of SNCO's and Airmen in the bunkers and even the FC SNCO's are real SNCO's first. An FC SNCO on the back row of an E3D will be doing exactly the same job as a plastique WSop. But in a bunker that FC SNCO will be a shift leader with 6 or 7 Airmen to control.

True aircrew on the other hand as we all know are Pilots, Eng's Nav's etc first and then Occifers or SNCO's second.

Both sets are cast in their own ways and as long as they continue to work together there will be minor problems.

I personally think that FC's have had a rough time of it, they are in a no win situation and who can blame them for not wanting to go back to Boulmer from Waddo? Exactly the same can be said of all the Aeops who have won the lottery and escaped to Waddo from Ice Station Kilo.

And before any one has a go at me I was a JAFAD SNCO for 2 years before I took the big money and became plastique.

[MAD Boom]

Gorilla,

Set in their ways they may be, but anyone who slaps on/earns a brevet should understand they become part of a team when they step on board an aircraft.

My current posting has me as a Divisional Officer for some twenty personnel in a joint command, at the same time as being responsible for tactical operations during a watch. Does this mean that when I get on board an aircraft again I'll behave like a FC SNCO who is so set in his ways as a leader of men he forgets the meaning of his aircrew brevet? I think not.

Anyone who flys should think aircrew first, and rank second.

[JessTheDog]

In my day (harumph!) I dimly recall that the relationship between officer and SNCO FCs was very good. The SNCO FCs tended to be fast-tracked airmen who had passed the aptitude tests. I think the relationship between officer FCs and TG12 SNCOs was less good, with fault lying with both "institutions" (the branch and trade group) rather than with the personnel.

[polyglory]

JessTheDog.

In that I wholeheartedly agree

[The Gorilla]

But that's the whole point isn't it? They don't earn it. I am not saying they are second class or demeaning them in any way.

Pilots Eng’s Nav’s et al all strive on specialist aircrew courses to eventually fly. They go to hell and back to learn the value of teamwork in the air.

FC's do a wonderful and professional job in the air sat at their consoles. But they are ground crew temporarily filling a flying post. They are selected from the bunker, do a watered down Aircrew survival course at Waddo and then do an OCU. Hey presto instant brevet. It isn't their fault that they are not equipped in the same way others are, simply because that's the way the RAF wants them to be trained.

I assume Mad boom you are "real" aircrew yes?? (I hate that term!!) So you are still Trade specialist first, Occifer etc 2nd even when you command at division. You are a round peg in a round hole. FC's are square pegs in round holes because they haven't had to fight and work for up to 2 years or more to actually gain the brevet. Again I state that it isn’t their fault. Surely somebody else must have a good word to say about FC’s???

[JessTheDog]

There is a Catch-22 situation in that FCs who earn the brevet can't specialise and stay on the jet for the rest of their careers (as much as anyone with any sense would like to) because of a pressure to bring knowledge and expertise back to the ground environment, and to free up slots for other ground tour FCs. It is therefore difficult to view FCs wholly as aircrew.

So, what to do? Have a specialist stream for FC aircrew in which they remain aircrew? This would have major disadvantages as the knowledge level of the ground environment would be damaged, particularly in the complicated and technological modern battlespace. Or make the airborne FC job only available to aircrew? I can see how the latter option would please some but it really would not work!

I am going to stick my neck out somewhat and restate the "pecking order" as I think FCs are being treated a little unfairly, although there is no doubt a little truth in this scrap.

Pecking order:

1. The people who fly the damned thing (2 wings).
2. Everyone else with a job to do (1 wing).
3. Passengers (no wings).

If there is a concern that FCs do not have enough airmanship then that needs to be addressed in the training regime, and there may be substance to the gripes about the different survival courses. Removing FCs from the jet in their entirety would not work, and is as daft an idea as that of the FCs who believe that they are the only ones who can do the job on the jet.

Why will there be over 60 of 'em on the ISTAR Training Wing, when everbody else gets 5 reps?

I might be open to criticism here, but I believe that FCs have more people who understand the NEC stuff than other branches, and probably more spare bodies. I've been out of it a bit now so I might be wrong, although when I left I believe that was the case.

[SpotterFC]

Edit - this took 2 hrs to write in between bathing children etc, thus a little behind the drag curve (aren't I always)

BEagle - unfortunately you date yourself somewhat with your reference to SOCs (we got rid of those in 1995) and your personal opinion of Neatishead is just that; no doubt the controllers of that time had equally disparaging things to say about you and your contemporaries. In the days of the mighty F4 the FCs at NT were hampered in their equipment to an almost unbelievable degree, and always bore the tag of the 'PI factory' against Buchan's more QRA- and exercise-centric operations to its closing day. We haven't helped ourselves sometimes by diluting trg requirements, but you also only tend to remember the bad experiences and forget the good and average ones.

Thinking your arguments are 'spherical objects' aside, I find myself agreeing with you to a certain extent with regard to the general level of aviation-related knowledge found in FCs, especially in Systems people. Many now arrive thinking that the job is 'like any other (office) job, but with wings on'. Having been an OJT instructor, the lack of understanding of basic aviation topics was perturbing. What was worse was the disinclination apparent to do anything about it on a personal level.

However, my agreement only goes so far - why on earth would an FC need to know about the intricacies of a VOR (we don't control Class A and none of our customers use them whilst under our control), or TAS/IAS (we see GS, possibly issue instructions in IAS. TAS for boom limitation at Mach? We have NO way of getting real-time dynamically updated atmospheric data to do that calculation, especially now EF is here, which leaps around different levels like a demon posessed). On the other hand how many non E-3 'real' aircrew are interested in the details of Link 16, identification categories (other than not being classed hostile by Patriot), or even detailed ROE beyond that which affects their immediate mission?

MAD Boom - I agree with you, but the guys we send to the jet come from a different basic trg environment to that inculcated (big word for the day) during aircrew basic trg. Strange that most E-3 mates (of all branches/trades) talk up the rank/brevet blindness on the jet - maybe they're lying! If so things might change now that SNCOs have executive roles in the CRC Ops Rooms - meaning that JOs now often work for SNCOs.

Jess - actually I think there's now more friction between SNCO FC and TG12 than TG12 and OS(FC), probably because there are more SACs qualifying than before.

[BEagle]

What a bunch of horse that last post was...

If you can't think TAS/IAS without needing "real-time dynamically updated atmospheric data to do that calculation", then go back to school. As near as makes no odds, TAS = IAS + (IAS/60 x Alt in 000).

When I did the L16 course at the SOFC, I couldn't believe what an anti-aircrew bunch they were in general. Constant whinges about 'gro-bags' and how important the FCs were. The course itself was rather poorly structured; however, I understand that a later version was much improved.

VOR.... "why on earth would an FC need to know about the intricacies of a VOR (we don't control Class A and none of our customers use them whilst under our control)...." - that displays total ignorance. What is the relevance of Class A airspace in such a context? None.

Do I have a good word to say about FCs? Well, I have a fair number of accurately descriptive words for them.

[tablet_eraser]

We (and engineers) work in ISTAR because we work with the building blocks of data links instead of depending upon the output. Please differentiate between the systems and weapons side of the branch, because it isn't fair for you to complain about all fighter controllers when you only really have an issue with those who speak to you over the RT.

And if navs hate us so much, why are they taking seats on AWACS that much more experienced weapons controllers have been chasing after for a lot longer? A bit of aircrew protectionism there, it would seem. And before bleating about how easy the job is, consider the fact that the nav FCs - although, on the whole, an excellent bunch of chaps - take as much training than an ab initio FC to be able to do the job.

As to the brevet issue... dry your eyes. The FC brevet carries little meaning to anyone, but it adds an esprit di corps to those who wear it. It isn't as though they're wearing something they're not entitled to, is it?

[The Gorilla]

Beags

I am sensing some hostility here which is most unlike you!!

Have you had a bad FC experience? care to elaborate?

Tablet

You are quite correct, they are wearing a brevet to which they are entitled and most certainly Navs are trying to pinch FC slots. But then Navs are famous for pinching any slots then can so they don't have to Nav!!!

:}

[JessTheDog]

Jess - actually I think there's now more friction between SNCO FC and TG12 than TG12 and OS(FC), probably because there are more SACs qualifying than before.

I asked myself at the time, and still ask myself: why seperate the trade group and branch? There were (are?) Luddites on both sides who could never see the "big picture" :yuk: that existed beyond parochial politics, although I think things were improving as I left. There were many excellent TG12 SNCOs that would have made excellent TPOs, and there were moves afoot to give them that responsibility as I left. It's akin to the argument that is part-driving this thread - job is more important than rank. Having said that, the TG was historically cr@p at promoting capable airmen and JNCOs and I (nearly) wept tears of joy on occasion when I saw excellent Systems JNCOs getting their third and dragging down the average age of the TG12 SNCO cadre by a decade or so.

I find myself agreeing with BEagle somewhat over Spotter - if you leave the ground in Her Majesty's pay, you should know as much as possible about the unique environment in which you serve. It would add to the credibility of the branch if such perceived deficits are investigated and redressed.

[tablet_eraser]

Thanks Gorilla - always willing to shed the warm light of rationalism on to the turbulent shadows of debate.

As for BEags... yikes! I've never seen the old chap so bothered about something! FCs seem to have done him an appalling injustice at some point, maybe he could enlighten us?

Though, as an FC (SURVEILLANCE!!!!) somewhat biased, I can see the merits to both sides of this somewhat stormy debate. Nonetheless, I remain resolutely loyal to my branch which, after all, provides a better service than NORAD, that much-lauded defence system in North America. Why don't we get the appreciation from the public that Yanks and Canucks enjoy??????

Oh, by the way..... Navs: Know your place!!!

:=

[JessTheDog]

As for BEags... yikes! I've never seen the old chap so bothered about something! FCs seem to have done him an appalling injustice at some point, maybe he could enlighten us?

He had the pleasure of the L16FC! :E

There always was friction between the linkies and the operators, but this was not surprising when many different operators are competing for limited network resources. When it went t!ts up, the linkies blame dthe aircrew and the aircrew blamed the linkies!

I was witness to a scenario when a gaggle of F3s tried to join the L16 net and failed to synch, so decided (in flagrant breach of CAA frequency regulations) to switch their system time forwards in order to establish their own net. Naughty boys, but the link monitors (contractors, not the ancient kit) decided to switch their system time in predictable increments until the miscreants were found. The airborne warriors then started using more random time changes. Such ingenuity!
:D

[BEagle]

25 years of being messed around by (mainly) Neatishead during my time in first AD, then AAR.......

"You're approaching the edge of your area........"

Still, when I was at Biggin Hill after the pre-Vulcan Buccaneer lead-in course, a ready supply of chopped FC ladies was of much entertainment to the aircrew reselectees. For that I was at least thankful.....:E

The levels of general RT bull$hit spouted on busy AAR frequencies by (OK then - CRCs) has got worse over the years. Why must they:

1. Ask "What are your intentions on leaving" to a C-130 just about to start 3 hours of jousting...?

2. Say "Continue with the Tanker" after the receiver calls visual?

3......and tell the receiver to "Call visual with the tanker"?

4. Try to turn a tanker/tanker pair busily jousting to accommodate some civilian Jetstream or similar which is off-airways in Class G tying to save a thimble full of fuel.

5. Ask "What will be your tanking level" on initial check-in long before the tanker has arrived on the AARA and has had a chance to check out the weather?

When we first had L16 in the VC10 we all thought "Great - we can see what's going on and won't have to suffer all that yak from FCs any more!" A picture (especially one with PPLIs) being worth a thousand words.

Mind you, I do agree that the L16 SOPs used by that cowboy F3 team were pretty clueless. I guess the CAA still don't accept that L16 stacked nets are no actual problem to their precious DMEs?

[Maple 01]

What an old grump! Probably didn't like 'call switches safe' either - interfered with his God-like concentration - Some questions have to be asked whether they make sense to you or not! - That’s quite an ego there BEags – remember just because you have been told you were the best-of-the-best didn’t automatically make you right under all circumstances


I remember several F-4 pilots disregarding FC 'advice' on sorties during your ‘golden days’ because they knew better. They'd then screw-up the stern conversion or lose contact and go ‘gadget bent’ only for the fault to recover itself later or blame the coms. Doesn’t make all aircrew numpties but seemed at the time that some pilot egos were getting in the way of proper PIs and also causing flight safety problems- ask Air UK/Air Anglia what they thought of F-4 drivers!

BTW not FC myself, just had to ptovide the Polos.....

[PPRuNe Pop]

Sorry, but the sole purpose of this thread seems to be slagging each other off - not by name but by job. Someone called it a debate - its not - it is just one snipe after another. Its all so depressing. :sad: really.