logging night as IF

[aussie.pilot..]

Hi all

I was wondering what you guys thought of logging IF time at night.

I regularly fly at night over remote areas and I believe that we should log it as IF. When we fly at night there is no lighting on the ground there is just a black windscreen. This to me is IF according to the logbook.

I may be that there is 5000m/8000m visibility and the required cloud clearance so I guess that it is technically VMC. Most of the time though I do end up in cloud, if only briefly, and the only way I know this is because the strobes go off like a bomb.

My view is if you can’t see anything past the windscreen it should be IF.

What do you guys think?
:ok:

[DirectAnywhere]

Try the following:

Pilot Log Books - General Guidance (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm) under "Logging of Flight Time" and "Instrument Flight Time".

All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.

While it's only guidance, it's pretty explicit. Sorry! :(

[aussie.pilot..]

cheers

[compressor stall]

Been discussed here repeatedly. That guidance for logbooks does not override the regs which state that yes you can log IF: (someone else can provide the refs).

If you're operating by reference to the horizon, then you are flying IF.

This can even occur on a VFR flight as the (N)VFR state nothing about horizons.

CS

[Capt Fathom]

Why do you want to log it anyway?
If you are hour building for a job, just log it. Who will know except you!
Otherwise, it's irrelevant what goes into your logbook. It's only your conscious you have to deal with!

[DirectAnywhere]

Yes CS, Instrument flying is defined here. (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/4000.pdf)

Once again CASA conradicts itself. However, that said, when they have published the guidance information above I think you'd have a pretty hard time arguing against it.

And to play devil's advocate again, it's unlikely they'd know about it and, even if they did, they couldn't prosecute on the basis of "guidance" information. I know what I'd do but Captain Fathom takes a pretty sensible approach as well!

[compressor stall]

Agree with the above, although guidance information does not override the law. Guidance information is merely "the vibe, your honour".

But even on the AP, it is more valuable than flying under the IFR for xxx hours (possibly 99% in VMC) that some operators seem to want. :confused:

[speedbird23]

If there is no visible horizon(at night in remote areas) how could you possibly navigate visually. I know what the rules say, but did the person who wrote them ever actually fly outside of the circuit area of a major city at night? Probably not. Anyway if your plane doesn`t have strobes, at night, how would you know if you are cloud or not?

[Sqwark2004]

Looks like I need to adjust my logbook a bit.

From what I am reading in the previous posts, I should have well over 1,000 hours IF.

Now, that can't be right coz I know that I have trouble keeping the old bird straight and level when I hear a mention of the word word 'Cloud'

Guess the boys and girls in both NZ and OZ need to get back into the board room and draft up some rules that actually make sense.

YEAH RIGHT!!!

S2K4 eva

[QSK?]

Here's my take on this subject, based on a discussion I had during a flight test some years ago.

Relevant Quotes:All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column: and a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight (Bolding is my empahsis).

The question of whether one can log night flying as IF time depends on whether VMC exists at the time or not. As we all know VMC criteria also includes a flight visibility component in addition to cloud avoidance criteria. Flight Visibility is defined in AIP (Gen 2.2) as "The visibility forward from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight"

So, based on this, I contend that if a pilot is flying at night and is not in a position to discern an horizon or ground features "forward from the cockpit" then he/she HAS ZERO FLIGHT VISIBILITY and is, therefore, technically not in VMC and must fly "...solely by reference to instruments". Flight time, therefore, qualifies as IF time.

Many years ago one of my DCA Examiners asked me a similar question (while I was doing a flight test) with respect to whether a VFR pilot was flying in VMC if they were flying directly into the sun and could not see forward far enough to detect and avoid other conflicting aircraft and weather. According to this DCA Examiner, the pilot was technically not operating in VMC if they couldn't see at least to the minimum VMC visibility criteria.

So, the other question is, can a pilot log daylight flight time as IF if they're flying directly into the sun and don't have the required forward flight visibility?

[404 Titan]

QSK?

One could argue that if someone is flying a VFR flight as you describe they are in breach of the CAR’s.
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 171
V.F.R. flight

(1)
A flight conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Division is classed as a flight under the Visual Flight Rules.

(2)
Where an aircraft cannot be flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules, the pilot in command shall comply with the Instrument Flight Rules contained in Division 4 of this Part or land at the nearest suitable aerodrome.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

(3)
An offence against subregulation (2) is an offence of strict liability.
ENR 1.2 VISUAL FLIGHT RULES
1. FLIGHT RULES
1.1 The Visual Flight Rules (VFR)
1.1.1 VFR flight may only be conducted:
a. in VMC;
b. provided that,when operating at or below 2,OOOFT above the ground or water, the pilot is able to navigate by visual reference to the ground or water;
c. at sub sonic speeds; and
d. in accordance with the speed restrictions identified at ENR 1.1, 79.

[QSK?]

404 Titan:

Unfortunately, my previous post wasn't that clear. Your assessment is absolutely correct, and this is why I believe that the NVFR Rating (not the CIR/NVFR procedure) should include an additional requirement that the pilot must be able to discern the horizon and/or the ground during night flight! In other words he must have "flight visibility" at least to the required VMC minima even though it is a cloudless night. Pitch black = no flight visibility = non-VMC.

All I was trying to point out in my previous post is that a pilot can only fly under IMC or VMC.

If a pilot is operating on an IFR flight plan, but in VMC conditions, then they cannot log IF time. However, if the pilot is flying on an IFR flight plan on a crystal clear cloudless night but cannot discern the horizon or ground features, then they are not flying in VMC (no forward flight visibility) and are, therefore, operating in IMC and must navigate the aircraft solely by instruments. If this is the case, then the pilot can log flight time as IF even though there are no clouds, precipation etc.

[404 Titan]

QSK?

Sorry for being the devils advocate. I knew what you were trying to say. I do agree that an IFR driver at night with no horizon should log IF as they have no visibility, and hence by definition are in IMC. Someone though on a night VFR flight who doesn’t have a current IFR rating that finds themselves in a similar situation though could be by definition, in breach of the CAR’s and the AIP’s. The logging of IF time can only be done by one pilot in IMC or under simulated IMC i.e. training. If someone is logging IF on a Night VFR flight they are in breach of the regulations as they shouldn’t be there. Night VFR ratings were never designed to be used to get from A – B solely in the dark. They were designed to allow a pilot to get in after last light. I for the life of me would never go anywhere at night VFR. As far as I'm concerned it is a get out of gaol free card and a stepping stone to a CIR.

When I was still flying in GA I was flat out trying to keep my IFR rating current with all the IF requirements. All my flying was in the tropical part of Australia as well. Even in the wet season I was under 1 hour of IF for every 10 hours flown. In 6000 hours of PIC flying I had about 250 hours of total IF. Being the CP, I use to see people coming in all the time looking for work. If someone’s IF didn’t gel with there total hours I use to query how they logged their IF time. It really use to amaze me some of the responses I got. The message people I am trying to make here is that most employers have their opinion of what the rules say in regards to the logging of IF time and in most cases they are the same as CASA’s interpretation.

PS: From personal experience though there are very few nights that I have ever flown where there wasn’t some discernable horizon even when there wasn’t a moon when flying clear of cloud. There are only a handful of times I ever logged IF at night on an IFR plan where I couldn’t make out the horizon and I did fly a reasonable amount at night.

[QSK?]

404 Titan:

404, thanks for your reply. I think we are both in agreement but somehow expressing it differently, which is causing the confusion.

What I'm also trying to say (in addition to the IFR logging requirement) is that a NVFR rated pilot flying at night with no forward flight visibility is actually in IMC conditions and, therefore, should not be flying under the presently defined VMC criteria (unless pilot and aircraft are also IFR rated). So, based on my interpretation, a lot of existing NVFR (category) flights that are flying in pitch black remote areas should not be occuring because they are simply not being conducted in VMC conditions. In other words, they shouldn't be flying in the first place, and so can't log IF time.

However, if CASA were to change the VMC criteria for night flying by redefining and clarifying the definition of forward flight visibility to include a requirement to be able to discern the ground/horizon during night hours then, hopefully, this would cause pilots to think again about conducting NVFR flights into "black holes".

(Sorry, mate on re-reading this post I don't know whether I've clarified my earlier posts or added to the confusion!!)

Cheers QSK?

[tinpis]

All academic really I suppose it comes down to what matters on yer time sheet.
If you get paid munny for flying in clouds or in the dark put it down.
Otherwise its all academic you still only flying thirty inches of instrument panel in front of you.
One more thing.... twenty something years ago tin knew a fella was pretty good at this night vfr stuff. He had a PPL and his own plane with an A/P and was pretty well known around town for cheap charters all over the place.
One night it got vewwy vewwy dark and his A/P didnt work result ......thud....
all dead.

[404 Titan]

QSK?

No problems. I think we are both interpreting it exactly the same way. The simple rule here is that if you are on a VFR flight of any category you can not log any IF time. The exception to this is if you have an IF rating and are practicing with a safety pilot on board who can still maintain VFR or you are under training. If you don’t have an IFR rating you can forget about logging IF as you are not qualified to log it. It’s as simple as that.
CIVIL AVIATION ORDERS
PART 40
SECTION 40.0
Issue 3


CONDITIONS — FLIGHT CREW LICENCES
1 INTERPRETATION

instrument flying means controlling an aircraft’s attitude during flight solely by reference to the aircraft’s flight instruments.

visual flying means controlling an aircraft’s attitude during flight by reference to features outside the aircraft.

2 CONDITIONS ON AEROPLANE PILOT LICENCES

2.7 The holder of an aeroplane pilot licence must not practice instrument flying in an aeroplane while the aeroplane is flying under the V.F.R. unless:

(a) either:
(i) the holder also holds a command aeroplane instrument rating that is appropriate to the aeroplane; and
(ii) the aeroplane is equipped with the flight instruments required by CASA under subregulation 177 (1); and
(iii) the aeroplane is equipped with fully functioning dual controls; and
(iv) the other control seat is occupied by a person who holds a pilot licence, other than a student pilot licence, and a type or class endorsement for the aeroplane; and
(v) the person has sufficient vision from the aeroplane to enable him or her to safely fly the aeroplane in visual flying; or

(b) the holder is accompanied by an authorised flight instructor.

Note 1: It is an offence under the Civil Aviation Act 1988 for a person to fly an aeroplane under the I.F.R. unless he or she holds an instrument rating or a private I.F.R. rating, or is receiving training in flying under the I.F.R. from a person who is approved by CASA to give the training.
Thats my highlighting of the word "solely". Notice it isn't in the visual flying definition
CIVIL AVIATION ORDERS
PART 40
SECTION 40.2.1
Issue 4

INSTRUMENT RATINGS

2 INTERPRETATION

instrument time means instrument flight time and instrument ground time.
Many years ago one of my DCA Examiners asked me a similar question (while I was doing a flight test) with respect to whether a VFR pilot was flying in VMC if they were flying directly into the sun and could not see forward far enough to detect and avoid other conflicting aircraft and weather. According to this DCA Examiner, the pilot was technically not operating in VMC if they couldn't see at least to the minimum VMC visibility criteria.

So, the other question is, can a pilot log daylight flight time as IF if they're flying directly into the sun and don't have the required forward flight visibility?
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 176A
Determination of visibility and cloud base for I.F.R.
flights

(1)Subject to regulation 257, the pilot in command of an aircraft operating under the Instrument Flight Rules is responsible for determining the visibility and cloud base for the take-off and landing of the aircraft.

(2)In determining visibility, the pilot in command of an aircraft must take into account the meteorological conditions, sunglare and any other condition that may limit his or her effective vision through the windscreen of the cockpit of the aircraft.

(3)In determining the cloud base, the pilot in command of an aircraft must:

(a)for take-off — take into account the current available weather forecasts and reports; and

(b)for landing — determine the cloud base from the cockpit of the aircraft while in flight.
Yes if they are qualified, i.e. IFR rating and the aircraft is suitably equipped, otherwise technically they aren’t in VMC and shouldn’t be there. So yes, the DCA examiner was correct in his interpretations of the reg’s.

[Continental-520]

So, if you're flying westbound under the VFR at the day's end, planning to arrive at your destination AD not more than 10 mins before last light, la, la, la and all the rest of it, how are you supposed to determine whether the sun glare at any given time during your journey is going to reduce visibility to below VMC?

And even if it does, what the law implies is that you're supposed to land as soon as 'practicable' once you find yourself in that predicament?

Right. :confused:


520.

[QSK?]

404:

Thanks for highlighting CAR 176A to me. For some reason, I was not aware of this reg or the fact that sunglare was mentioned in there (love this forum, you learn something new every day).

Continental-520:

Yes, technically that's what the law implies as I see it.